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What faith do you identify with and please don’t say none, because we all know that isn’t true. If you don’t have a faith you identify with, it means you created a new one and what do you call it?
You are adamant the passage in Ezekiel is a reference to Satan, please explain why you are dead set on it being Satan and not the king of Tyre.
For me, I can’t get passed the words G-d spoke when HE said: “11 The word of the LORD came to me: 12 “Son of man, sing a lament for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘This is what the sovereign LORD says:”
The verse continues on with: “You were the sealer of perfection, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.”
In verse 12 G-d is speaking to the king of Tyre; who is the “you” G-d is addressing? Using fundamental grammar, wouldn’t the personal pronoun “you” used through verse 19 be the same as the one being addressed in verse 12?
Explain your reasoning.
Desire truth- Ezekial 28:13–In Eden, the garden of God you proved to be—King of Tyre was NOT in Eden. The anointed Cherub was= the one who rebelled and sinned. 28:17–On the Earth i will throw you)= satan after the war in heaven
I am a Jehovah Witness.
Continuing to repeat the same verse without explanation doesn’t explain why you believe the passage is a reference to Satan. You stated “scholars” also say this passage is a reference to Satan, please provide the names of said “scholars”; I would like to read their words.
The following are commentaries of notable scholars of yesteryear:
Barnes’ Notes on the Bible
Thou hast been in Eden – “Thou” wast etc. The prince of Tyrus is ironically described as the first of creation; but at the same time the parallel is to be maintained in his fall from glory. Like Adam in the enjoyment of paradise, he shall be like Adam in his fall.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
in Eden—The king of Tyre is represented in his former high state (contrasted with his subsequent downfall), under images drawn from the primeval man in Eden, the type of humanity in its most Godlike form.
Matthew Poole’s Commentary
In Eden; in the midst of all delights; and though nature made thy lot a very barren rock, thy art and industry, added to that of thy progenitors, have made it as pleasant, rich, and beautiful as Eden, that place of all desirable enjoyments.
Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God,…. Not only in Eden, but in the garden which was in Eden, and was of the Lord’s immediate planting; and therefore called the garden of God, as well as because of its excellency, fragrancy, and delight; not that the king of Tyre was literally there, or ever dwelt in it; but his situation in Tyre was as safe, and as pleasant and delightful, as Adam’s was in the garden of Eden, at least in his own imagination.
We notice in these commentaries there is NO reference to Satan by any of these men, each treat Eden as an allusion, a figurative or symbolic reference. Still waiting for the grammatical explanation of who the pronoun “you” in verses 12 – 19 is referencing.
Support what you believe; don’t say what you know, say how you know it.
What have you explained? You said according to scholars Satan is to be understood in Ezk 28:13; except, I posted the writings of some prominent christian scholars who state the prophecy is about the king of Tyre. I asked who these scholars claiming the passage is a reference to Satan and you gave nothing, provide the proof of your statement…back it up! Telling me to read the passage again and again isn’t proof to YOUR understanding, because I read for context.
You claim my “reasoning is wrong”, explain. The only “reasoning” I’ve used is context, what is written in black and white. What I’m NOT doing is reading between the lines or listening to an interpretation of another man without verifying what they’re saying.
You believe what you believe, why; you can’t explain it, so why do you believe it?
Here’s a short exercise, read Isa 7:1-16 and summarize it.
Desire truth–You best ask those scholars then how the King of Tyre was in Eden. Eden was closed off after the rebellion. The fallen anointed Cherub was in Eden not any king of Tyre.
Can’t really asked someone who’s dead; but the ones I quoted are ones used to educate other pastors…soooo.
You still haven’t given me any names of those who support your thesis Ezekiel was speaking of Satan. You still haven’t identified the “you” in the passage. You still haven’t explained why you believe it’s a reference to Satan, other than the king couldn’t have been in Eden (which I have already acknowledged saying this prophecy against the king is an allusion), but Satan was…or was he?!? Now there’s an interesting conversation, was Satan really in Eden…maybe another time.
Since you believe Satan is who is referenced you need to help me understand a few things:
We agree the prophecy is directed at the king of Tyre because that’s what it says, so why would Ezekiel, who is told by G-d to tell the king he’s about to be destroyed, be referencing Satan; why would the king of Tyre care about a reference to Satan and what purpose would it serve the king to know this reference?
Are there any passages that would confirm Satan was adorned with precious stones?
Are there any passage calling Satan “anointed guardian cherub”? If Ezekiel is the only one, doesn’t really support your believe as the bible is suppose to confirm itself.
In the “abundance of your trading” or “the multitude of thy merchandise” – this is speaking physical items traded between nations; what trade/merchandising did Satan do with nations?
When was Satan thrown to the ground before other kings?
Are there any passages speaking of Satan being dishonest in trading?
Verse 19 “All who know you among the peoples are appalled over you; you have become as horrors, and you shall cease to exist forever.” Explain this one and how it applies to Satan!
Are you going to give a summary of Isaiah 7:1-16?
What was your point? I was saying Satan isn’t the ruler of this world, G-d is.
The point is that many who read the Bible think the World means the Planet. And because of that, much scripture is misinterpreted.
Satan is the god of this world.
When it states–you were in Eden–ALL know 100% the king of Tyre was not in Eden, but its talking about the anointed Cherub=satan.–verse 14 says its the anointed Cherub=in Eden=the fallen angel.
Onto the earth i will throw you=satan after losing the war in heaven.(28:17)
Satan rules this wicked system. 2Cor 4:4 calls him the god of this system. The true living God=Jehovah is in full control of all creation, he is allowing satan to rule this wicked system because mortals rebelled in Eden and asked for it. Gods kingdom rule will cure it all.
I didn’t ask if Satan was the “god” of this world, I asked who the “ruler” of this world is. This distinction makes a huge difference in understanding. I won’t argue against christians MAKING Satan a “god” by applying and projecting all evil onto him, making him the patsy for every evil inclination and sinful act of mankind, and for the christian, removes all responsibility for the sins they commit. “It was Satan who caused me to sin, but I have the Jesus and all my sins are washed away by the blood of the lamb”; basically the christian is free to sin without responsibility because the Jesus is their “sin sacrifice”; HOWEVER, this isn’t what G-d said is it?!?
Someone really needs to explain Gen 4:7 and how the christian world can ignore what G-d said about mankind having power and ruling over sin. Since we have the power over sin, we are the one’s who willfully sin by the bad, wrong, or sinful choices we make; we as mankind were gifted this knowledge when Adam ate from the tree. How is this truth not understood and why would I believe the lies of Paul who says sin controls us when G-d says we control it?
When it states–you were in Eden–ALL know 100% the king of Tyre was not in Eden, but its talking about the anointed Cherub=satan.–verse 14 says its the anointed Cherub=in Eden=the fallen angel.
I never stated or implied the king was in Eden; in fact I said he wasn’t, couldn’t have been. But that’s not even the question or a point of contention. What’s in question is how verse 11 begins by addressing the king and you theorize the next verse is speaking of Satan. When did Ezekiel make the transition from the king to Satan? How is it you fail to understand this is an allusion and not literal? I quoted the words of some renown scholars and you reject them because they don’t align with your religions view.
What are the name of your “scholars” who support this theory of Ezekiel speaking of Satan?
Who is the “you” used throughout this passage?
Why would the king of Tyre care about a reference to Satan when the prophecy is about his destruction?
Why would this prophecy begin by addressing the king and then immediately shift to Satan?
“Onto the earth I will throw you=satan”;
You didn’t finish the verse. You parachuted onto a phrase and because it sounds like what happened to Satan it has to be. This isn’t proof, this is sound bite religion. Let’s finish the verse:
I threw you down to the ground; I placed you before kings, that they might see you. (NET)
I have cast you to the ground; I have laid you before kings, that they may see you. (WEB)
I cast you to the ground; I put you before kings, That they may see you. (NAS)
I have cast thee to the ground; I have laid thee before kings, that they may behold thee. (ASV)
I cast you to the ground;I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you. (ESV)
I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. (KJV)
When was Satan ever laid before kings? What kings was he ever before?
after losing the war in heaven.(28:17)
What war in heaven are you talking about?!?!? I have read nothing of a war in heaven between G-d and Satan in the Tanakh!
You didn’t explain verse 19; verses 11-19 have to be read together otherwise we have the problem we are seeing now, a misappropriation of G-d’s word and thus creating a lie. It’s all about context and NOT man made interpretations.
You then go on to quote the liar Paul speaking in Corinth; anything written by Paul I have rejected and so should you since he speaks against G-d.
You will never see the truth, until you verify what you have been told is truth. Is it fear of being “shunned” preventing you from verifying?
Yes it speaks of the king of Tyre, but then switches to the anointed cherub=0 doubt. A Cherub is an angel– it is showing how he fell to badness because of his beauty. He showed in the wilderness to Jesus he seeks to be worshipped.
WHEN does it change, at the word “cherub”?!?!? Then does it shift back to the king of Tyre? Who is the “you” in this entire passage referring? What your saying doesn’t make sense; either it’s all about Satan or it’s all about the king, it CANNOT be both! Since it begins with addressing the king of Tyre, IT HAS TO BE TO THE KING OF TYRE AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SATAN! You have been deceived and lied to because the words written don’t support your theory of Satan!
Again, are my questions to difficult to answer?
If you read it, it says–this is what you are to say to the King of Tyre–Its about the fallen angel in the garden=the anointed Cherub. So Ezekial was to show the king of Tyre who the fallen angel is, and why he fell.
Now you’re just making stuff up! It says nothing of the sort…showing the king of Tyre who the fallen angel is?!?!?Thankfully I wasn’t drinking anything because I would have spit it all over my screen. Where did you come up with that and do you seriously believe it?!?!?
Reread 28:11-19 and go verse by verse explaining what’s happening. Please post what you find as I would love now how you came to the conclusion Ezekiel was prophesying to the king about Satan. You must also read verses 1-10 as there is a parallel between the two sections…context, context, context!
By the way, you still haven’t explained who the “you” is throughout the passage, have given no names of the scholars who theorize Ezekiel is speaking of Satan, and you haven’t explained why the king would care about a reference to Satan when his destruction is eminent (read verse 10).
28:12– Son of man, lift up a dirge concerning the King of Tyre, and you must say to him. This is what the sovereign Lord Jehovah has said. You are sealing up a pattern, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13=In Eden the garden of God you proved to be)))))= not the king of Tyre but the fallen anointed Cherub was in Eden= 100% fact.
That isn’t proof, that’s called assumptions (or parroting); the text as a whole doesn’t support G-d speaking of Satan, HE is addressing the king HE is about to judge, along with the city because of their corruption/sin.
Did you read beginning in verse 1 or not; did you compare verses 1-10 to verses 11-19 (magically a parallel); did you take the time to study this passage or are you regurgitation what someone told you it meant; did you place all the verses together in the context they where written (may want to start reading in chapter 26 where the prophecy against Tyre begins)?
If you want “light” (truth), start studying, questioning, and verifying what you have been told is truth! You WILL discover the truth and it isn’t in the lies of religion (pick your flavor). Christianity is false as it promotes the Jesus and NOT G-d…you CANNOT serve two masters.
Ezekiel 28 first addresses the ‘prince of Tyre’ (Ezekiel 28:1-10) and then shifts to address the ‘king of Tyre’ (Ezekiel 28:11-19).
The first section about the prince of Tyre is directed at a human ruler who is proud and claims to be like a god. The second section, addressed to the king of Tyre, uses language that many see as going beyond a human figure, describing him as being in Eden and as an ‘anointed cherub who covers’ which seems describe an angel.
It makes sense because the description of the human ruler seems to shift towards the ultimate source of that nature and its sin of pride.
I didn’t ask if Satan was the “god” of this world, I asked who the “ruler” of this world is.
The original Greek word used in 2 Corinthians 4:4 for “god” is θεός (theos).
In that verse, Paul uses theos in a generic sense to describe Satan as a (false) god who has power and influence over the present world system, blinding unbelievers to the truth of the gospel. The context and grammar make it clear that this is not referring to the true God, so there is no blasphemy there. Idols are also false gods (theos).
As for your point about god vs ruler. Satan is both.
In other bible passages Jesus refers to Satan as “the ruler of this world” (ho archōn tou kosmou toutou) such as in John 12:31, 14:30 and 16:11. There the word archōn means ruler or prince.
So in 2 Corinthians 4:4 the more accurate translation is god of this world, while the ruler of this world wording is from the Gospel of John.
John 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.John 14:30
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.John 16:11
Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
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