Let your will take place as in heaven

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2005,00:46)

Nick, why are the angels pictured as having wings?  Do they fly around like the birds?  Is that how they get around Nick?  Or could it be that picturing them that way will help our limited human brains to comprehend something? No Nick, I obviously have never seen Seraphim or Cherubim.  I have seen common sence and the wisdom to compare scriptures.  And they are beautiful things. Jehovah, whom even “the heaven of the heavens” cannot contain, does not have to sit on a literal throne or chair. (1Ki 8:27) He does, however, picture his royal authority and sovereignty by the symbol of a throne. THINGS TO CONSIDER: Jehovah extended his throne to earth in a typical, specific way in his dealings with the sons of Israel. Since the one ruling in Israel was to be “a king whom Jehovah your God will choose,” who would rule in Jehovah’s name over Jehovah’s people and according to Jehovah’s law, his throne was really “Jehovah’s throne.”—De 17:14-18; 1Ch 29:23. Besides his kingly identity with the royal line of Judah, Jehovah was enthroned in Israel in another sense as well. As Jeremiah expressed it: “There is the glorious throne on high from the start; it is the place of our sanctuary.” (Jer 17:12) Jehovah was spoken of as “sitting upon the cherubs” that were on the propitiatory cover of the ark of the testimony in the sanctuary. (Ex 25:22; 1Sa 4:4) The divine presence was symbolized by a cloud that reportedly produced a miraculous light that later Jewish writers called the Shekhi·nah´. (Le 16:2) While Jeremiah foretold the absence of the ark of the covenant when Israel would be restored from Babylon, this would not mean that Jehovah no longer purposed to be enthroned at his center of worship. As He said: “In that time they will call Jerusalem the throne of Jehovah.” (Jer 3:16, 17) Ezekiel’s restoration prophecies are in agreement, for in his vision of Jehovah’s temple in which no ark of the covenant was seen, he was told: “Son of man, this [temple] is the place of my throne.”—Eze 43:7. Anyway, it seems we're quite a bit off topic. It seemed to me you were using 1 John 3:2 as a way of saying: 'We just don't know,' and hence, that's why you didn't really respond to my statements.  So, I mentioned a couple of things and now I regret it.  I really would like to explore this topic of the earth in more detail. Thankyou for your thoughts david

Hi d,
You must choose either to believe scripture or not surely.
I would not presume that the wings mentioned often in the bible in relation to Cherubim or Seraphim or Cherubs do not exist. That would make me greater than scripture. I think they do exist .But ordinary angels do not seem to be described that way I agree.

[david]

Interesting. I found a scripture that says Jehovah has wings.
PSALM 91:4
“With his pinions he will block approach to you, And under his wings you will take refuge. His trueness will be a large shield and bulwark.”

So, if you like, you can change the title of this forum to: do angels have literal wings? Or, we can go back to what we were talking about, which I would prefer to do.

dave

[NickHassan]

Hi d,
Is it scripture you hold in contempt or just those who choose to believe it?
What I find interesting is that the Israelites made likenesses of cherubim and cherubs [with wings]in building the house of the Lord in 1 Chr 3f. How did they know what to carve unless they had seen them?

[david]

“Jehovah is a Rock”
Do you believe this Nick?
Jehovah was spoken of as “sitting upon the cherubs” that were on the propitiatory cover of the ark of the testimony in the sanctuary. (Ex 25:22; 1Sa 4:4)
Was Jehovah actually sitting upon the cherubs? Similarly, does the God whom the heavens cannot contain, does he actually sit upon a throne?

I do not hold scipture in contempt, nor those who choose to believe it.
Based on everything I know about wings and what they are, I just find it highly unlikely that they actually literally have wings.
When the Bible says: Jehovah is a Rock, you can choose to say: I believe that. He is a rock. (2 Sam 22:2,3; Ps 18:2) I will look at the rest of the scriptures and see what they say about him and what they say about rocks and come to the conclusion that Jehovah is not literally a rock. He has qualities of a rock. He uses something we understand, the hardness and strength of something like a rock, to describe himself.
The more I look at this, the less I think it can be proved either way. It seems a little point. Can we get back to the topic at hand.

But before we do, your comment:

I assume you actually meant 2 Chronicles 3.

WHY DID THEY PUT WINGS ON THE CHERUBS NICK?

Is that what you ask?

How could they have possibly come up with that idea?

Several hundred years before, we find these words:

EXODUS 25:20
“And the cherubs must be spreading out their two wings upward, screening over the cover with their wings, with their faces one toward the other. Toward the cover the faces of the cherubs should be.”

JEHOVAH SPOKE TO MOSES. He told him to give the cherubs two wings.

That's how Nick.

[NickHassan]

So david,
How do you decide what to believe or not to believe in the bible? You use your mind and your experience you seem to say.
The better way is to submit to the Spirit who wrote scripture and compare verse with verse and context with context and words with words.
It is a spiritual book written by the Spirit through men and should not be treated like any human artifact. We need to search it for ourselves and not rely on the findings of others.
We cannot discard any words or spiritualise verses unless it is made plain that God wants us to do that. That is what respect for the Word is.

[david]

First off, I believe everything in the Bible Nick.
No Nick, we cannot discard any words, you're right.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'spirtualizing' verses.
Submitting to God's spirit–a good thing.
Comparing verse with verse and looking at the context–a good thing.

[david]

Hey Nick, this is just a scripture that I found that also referes to Jehovah's “throne.”
ISAIAH 66:1
“This is what Jehovah has said: “The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where, then, is the house that YOU people can build for me, and where, then, is the place as a resting-place for me?””

Again, here, we see Jehovah's throne. Also, his footstool. I again will restate that it appears as though this throne mentioned (and the footstool) are meant to illustrate Jehovah's sovereignty, power, authority, and are used as human symbols that we understand.
I do not hold that Jehovah literally rests his feet upon the earth.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
God dwelled with the Israelites in the Holy of Holies as His Glory and will again on earth at the end. But God always is in Heaven where Jesus told us to pray to Him.

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
Ex 25.8
” Let them construct a sanctuary for Me, that I may dwell among them”
Ex 35.34
” You shall not defile the land in which you live, in the midst of which I dwell; for I the Lord am dwelling in the midst of the sons of Israel”
Rev 21.3″…Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them “
Ez 10.4
“Then the glory of the Lord went up from the cherub to the threshold of the temple, and the temple was filled with the cloud and the court was filled with the brightness of the glory of the Lord”
v18
” Then the glory of the lord departed from the threshold of the temple and stood over the cherubim. When the cherubim departed , they lifted their wings and rose up from the earth in my sight with the wheels beside them; and they stood still in the entrance of the east gate of the Lord's house, and the glory of the God of Israel hovered over them. These are the beings that I saw beneath the God of Israel by the river Chebar; so I knew they were cherubim”

We know from scripture that no man has seen God. God can manifest where He will by His glory.

[david]

Hey Nick,
You're not saying anything here I disagree with. I just happened upon that scripture and was again showing that it is unlikely that a spirit creature needs an actual literal throne to sit on.:blues:

[david]

smily faces aren't working.

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Aug. 31 2005,01:23)

I'M WONDERING WHAT THE PEOPLE OF THIS FORUM MAKE OF SCRIPTURES SUCH AS: MATTHEW 5:5 ““Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.” PROVERBS 2:21-22 “For the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it.” THE BIBLE SPEAKS OF A NEW EARTH. 2 PETER 3:13 “But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.” REVELATION 21:1 “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more.” IT DOESN'T SEEM THAT THE WAY THE EARTH IS NOW IS THE WAY GOD PURPOSED IT TO BE.  WAR, SICKNESS, DEATH, SIN, ETC, IS NOT GOD'S WILL FOR THE EARTH. ANY COMMENTS? David

Hi david,
It is not through man's will and energy and strength that the will of God is done.
Zech 4
” 6Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts. “
Phil 2.13
” 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
The holy city of Jerusalem will come down and the meek shall inherit the earth.

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