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Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 07 2010,00:30) Although this is another thread derail, the application of “Prince of Peace” was something given to Jesus much later than the NT. He was never given that title by any of the NT writers, just as the concept of “rapture” was a more recent invention. Mat 10:34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
Luk 12:51 Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division.
Sorry about the derail, kejonnQuote (kejonn @ Jan. 07 2010,06:58) Well, if you want to trot out Tanach passages to prove some point about Islam, let's be consistent: Zec 8:20 “Thus says the LORD of hosts: Peoples shall yet come, even the inhabitants of many cities.
Zec 8:21 The inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, 'Let us go at once to entreat the favor of the LORD and to seek the LORD of hosts; I myself am going.'
Zec 8:22 Many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the LORD.
Zec 8:23 Thus says the LORD of hosts: In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue shall take hold of the robe of a Jew, saying, 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.'”
Just to add, to take hold of the robe of a Jew,But who is a Jew today?
My other son (17) follows Rastafari , they claim all Africans are the true Jews. (which today are mainly Muslims or Christians)
Then theres the Afghan Pushtuns etc etc
And also according to the book of Revelations there are fake Jews
Revelation 2:9 and Revelation 3:9
So whos really who, and how we will ever know is beyond me.
Well, it would seem if the god of Abraham is real, then he would inspire them to seek out the true Jews
.Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 07 2010,06:58) Well, if you want to trot out Tanach passages to prove some point about Islam, let's be consistent: Zec 8:20 “Thus says the LORD of hosts: Peoples shall yet come, even the inhabitants of many cities.
Zec 8:21 The inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, 'Let us go at once to entreat the favor of the LORD and to seek the LORD of hosts; I myself am going.'
Zec 8:22 Many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the LORD.
Zec 8:23 Thus says the LORD of hosts: In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue shall take hold of the robe of a Jew, saying, 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.'”
This is nothing different: Salvation comes by way of The Jew, because the belief is Pure Monotheism although many of them even most in the past turned to polytheism and the worship of Idols.But there is no doubt they were given the Truth but many denied it and altered it, it even says so in their own scriptures:
(Jeremiah 8:8 RSV) How can you say, We are wise, we have the law of the LORD, when scribes with their lying pens have falsified it?
The Quran agrees:
Of the jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places, and say: “We hear and we disobey”; and “Hear what is not Heard”; and “Ra'ina”; with a twist of their tongues and a slander to Faith. If only they had said: “What hear and we obey”; and “Do hear”; and “Do look at us”; it would have been better for them, and more proper; but Allah hath cursed them for their Unbelief; and but few of them will believe.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #46)Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 06 2010,16:40) Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 07 2010,06:58) Well, if you want to trot out Tanach passages to prove some point about Islam, let's be consistent: Zec 8:20 “Thus says the LORD of hosts: Peoples shall yet come, even the inhabitants of many cities.
Zec 8:21 The inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, 'Let us go at once to entreat the favor of the LORD and to seek the LORD of hosts; I myself am going.'
Zec 8:22 Many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the LORD.
Zec 8:23 Thus says the LORD of hosts: In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue shall take hold of the robe of a Jew, saying, 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.'”
This is nothing different: Salvation comes by way of The Jew, because the belief is Pure Monotheism although many of them even most in the past turned to polytheism and the worship of Idols.But there is no doubt they were given the Truth but many denied it and altered it, it even says so in their own scriptures:
(Jeremiah 8:8 RSV) How can you say, We are wise, we have the law of the LORD, when scribes with their lying pens have falsified it?
The Quran agrees:
Of the jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places, and say: “We hear and we disobey”; and “Hear what is not Heard”; and “Ra'ina”; with a twist of their tongues and a slander to Faith. If only they had said: “What hear and we obey”; and “Do hear”; and “Do look at us”; it would have been better for them, and more proper; but Allah hath cursed them for their Unbelief; and but few of them will believe.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #46)
Jews Muslims, no matter how hard you try.Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 07 2010,11:04) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 06 2010,16:40) Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 07 2010,06:58) Well, if you want to trot out Tanach passages to prove some point about Islam, let's be consistent: Zec 8:20 “Thus says the LORD of hosts: Peoples shall yet come, even the inhabitants of many cities.
Zec 8:21 The inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, 'Let us go at once to entreat the favor of the LORD and to seek the LORD of hosts; I myself am going.'
Zec 8:22 Many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the LORD.
Zec 8:23 Thus says the LORD of hosts: In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue shall take hold of the robe of a Jew, saying, 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.'”
This is nothing different: Salvation comes by way of The Jew, because the belief is Pure Monotheism although many of them even most in the past turned to polytheism and the worship of Idols.But there is no doubt they were given the Truth but many denied it and altered it, it even says so in their own scriptures:
(Jeremiah 8:8 RSV) How can you say, We are wise, we have the law of the LORD, when scribes with their lying pens have falsified it?
The Quran agrees:
Of the jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places, and say: “We hear and we disobey”; and “Hear what is not Heard”; and “Ra'ina”; with a twist of their tongues and a slander to Faith. If only they had said: “What hear and we obey”; and “Do hear”; and “Do look at us”; it would have been better for them, and more proper; but Allah hath cursed them for their Unbelief; and but few of them will believe.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #46)
Jews Muslims, no matter how hard you try.
Obedient Jews are Muslims.Jewish is their tribe and kinship
Muslim is obedience to God
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 06 2010,18:27) Obedient Jews are Muslims. Only in the opinion of a Muslim.
Quote Jewish is their tribe and kinship Not necessarily. Being Jewish extends to obedience to Torah. Islam is not faithful to Torah.
Quote Muslim is obedience to God Not according to Torah. You do not honor the Sabbath. You reduce dietary restrictions. That is just some examples.
Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 07 2010,12:53) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 06 2010,18:27) Obedient Jews are Muslims. Only in the opinion of a Muslim.
Quote Jewish is their tribe and kinship Not necessarily. Being Jewish extends to obedience to Torah. Islam is not faithful to Torah.
Quote Muslim is obedience to God Not according to Torah. You do not honor the Sabbath. You reduce dietary restrictions. That is just some examples.
You simply do not understand the progression Restrictions that were put upon the children of Israel do not apply to all people. If you understood you would know that the children of Israel agreed to that covenant.Moses read the restrictions and those who agreed, agreed. Did you not know that?
Exodus 24:7-9 (King James Version)
7And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
8And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 06 2010,20:45) You simply do not understand the progression Restrictions that were put upon the children of Israel do not apply to all people. Why not? Same god, Or so you say!
Quote If you understood you would know that the children of Israel agreed to that covenant. And this god agreed to make it easier on others? Why?
Quote Moses read the restrictions and those who agreed, agreed. Did you not know that?
Sure did, that is why say that the god of the Jews the god pf the Christians the god of the Muslims.Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 07 2010,14:13) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 06 2010,20:45) You simply do not understand the progression Restrictions that were put upon the children of Israel do not apply to all people. Why not? Same god, Or so you say!
Quote If you understood you would know that the children of Israel agreed to that covenant. And this god agreed to make it easier on others? Why?
Quote Moses read the restrictions and those who agreed, agreed. Did you not know that?
Sure did, that is why say that the god of the Jews the god pf the Christians the god of the Muslims.
Yes it is about Covenants not about “gods”Restrictions are given according to the people.
Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 03 2010,01:07) kejonn,
I went through a crisis of faith myself a couple of years ago; I was fired, my business was stolen from me (aided by a Christian brother), the investor sued me to avoid honoring contracts, the lawsuit drained us of all our savings, out of money, I had to give him his way on everything, I couldn't find a job, later that year our house was robbed taking over $25k of goods. At first I tried to maintain a Christ like attitude but after getting sued a second time, once again for something I could prove was false if I could have afforded to take it to court (and by Christian brothers put up to it by the investor) I felt that God had abandoned me, if He even existed, I had truly tried to do everything in a way to please God and it was just so unfair, was this was my reward for the self sacrifices I had made in running the business in a Christ like manner! I began to re-evaluate what I believed and my reasons for believing it.
Sorry to hear of your troubles. Understand that such is part of the human condition, and can happen to anyone, regardless of any religious affiliations or beliefs.
I was only pointing out that I had reason for total disillusionment with Christianity for a number of reasons.Quote I had plenty of reasons to be bitter but knew that didn't hurt anyone but me. However if there wasn't a God of righteousness then life was pointless and those who had ripped me off had gotten away with it and there truly was no justice in this world.
I think this is one of the reasons many want to believe in the Christian god: revenge. IOW, they feel that those who seemingly get away with wrongdoings in this life will be punished in the afterlife for what they had done.But there is something really wrong with the way most Christians think. On one hand they might feel that their god will mete out justice in the afterlife, but what happens when the wrong-doer asks for forgiveness on his deathbed or sometime before death? Or sometime before? Then the Christian mentality is that they will get into heaven, and their life of “crime” goes unpunished, both here and the hereafter.
I'm sorry you believe I wanted revenge, I wanted justice (they are different). We have prayed for this individual from day one. I will rejoice if he repents on his deathbed though I would prefer it sooner, his soul is of far more value then what was stolen from us. As far as escaping punishment if he repents, I was also due punishment for the things I had done (and I must admit probably still do to some extent) but I believe we will be judged after the same fashion that we judge others and love covers a multitude of sins.Quote To make a long story short I did a lot of soul searching, my conclusions were; There must be one all encompassing truth.
Perhaps, but this thread asks theists to show why one's beliefs are “true” while another's is false.
I can only answer why I believe, what I believe. I stand ready to show why I believe scriptures are true and worthy of entrusting my life and desires based on what they teach. It boils down that if you refuse to see scriptures as anything more then human reasoning then any writing from anyone is just as valid.Quote I had to believe that there was more then just this life, you can call it wishful thinking if you like, but I felt there was just no way that everything came from nothing and that life was just some big accident.
That is called “god of the gaps”. People cannot definitively and positively explain how we came to be, how the universe was formed, so many will just assume some higher power must have designed and created it all. Question is, which higher power did it?
I disagree, the Bible provides a realistic creation timeline and is far more plausible then everything from nothing and complex design by trillions of accidents.Quote I then turned my questioning to God, to be honest I relied on my initial search 27 years earlier and stuck for the most part with the God of the bible but everything else was on the table and subject to scrutiny. The end of it was I found the trial to be a blessing, I learned contentment, to count my blessings, I received revelations on truths I had never dreamed possible and I saw much of the conflicts in my faith disappear. So much more of the Bible has gained relevance for me and God has met our every need despite 2 1/2 years with no paychecks.
What many people do not realize is that when they say they turn their questioning to some god, they are simply searching within their own psyche for the answers to their own questions. That is why you often get answers that are personalized: they came from you. IOW, you looked deep within yourself to find out how to be content in your situation.
I was not searching for a god 30 years ago, I was searching for truth.Quote I only wish I could offer you the proof you want. I pray you don't let all the false teachings from me or others trip you up, for me I found that forsaking pet theories (no matter how dearly held they were) and being intent on only the truth was a big part of moving on with life (No I don't expect you to take my word on what I found but the advise is good no matter what direction you choose). One point I do want to make is that I have done my best in choosing what I believe to be truths, I could be wrong but I hope to continue seeking (and accepting) truths and I believe that as long as I have been honest in my efforts, God will be pleased even if I still have errors in my beliefs once I die.
I do agree that we should question everything, as long as we're looking for answers.
My opinion – Wm
In the end, what is “true” for one religious adherent may be “false” for another. You will not agree much with a Hindu on the nature of “God”.Is chocolate cake delicious? To some, but others might not agree. That is very much how religious beliefs are to be viewed, IMHO. You agree with the Christian idea of god likely due to cultural influences. Perhaps the Christian god also matches your own personality and mentality.
Cake is a taste and subject to personal preference, truth is an absolute. The trouble is people try to make a god in the image of their personal preference. I can only speak for myself on this but what I have learned of God is nothing like what I thought God would be, and I am a totally different person then what I would have been on my own.Before worldwide TV and Internet, people were only exposed to the religious beliefs of their family and/or community. Now people can investigate all sorts of different beliefs, or can choose to be skep
tical of all (though the latter has always been true). Therefore, if someone brought up in a Christian home and community finds the idea of the Christian god to be unreasonable, they can investigate other beliefs. Or they can reject all of them.I liken this to trying new foods. One does not know if they like Kung Pao chicken until they get a chance to try some. Once tried, they can then make a more honest assessment of their own personal preferences. IMHO, religious beliefs are very personal, and just like tastes in food (or clothing, television shows, etc.), what is good for one person may not be good for another.
Christianity was not the first belief I looked at 30 years ago, and to be honest some of the others held more appeal to me but truth is not found through appeal but through something far deeper with truth realized (I know that you see it no different then what most others would say, but it is what it is)Of course, you will not likely agree with me, but that is largely due to warnings made inside of Christianity itself. The same was true with its parent faith, Judaism. Venturing outside of the realm of certain beliefs was “wrong”, not so much because any god disapproved, but that the leaders could not keep people in line when their beliefs did not match their own. So the writers of the various books in the bible defined which beliefs were acceptable. To go outside of these beliefs would define you as a heretic.[/quote]
Once again I see scriptures embodying truth, however I agree that snippets of scriptures have been used, probably since they were written, to manipulate and control all who would follow but truth does set you freeMy opinion – Wm
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 06 2010,21:37) Yes it is about Covenants not about “gods” Restrictions are given according to the people.
Why does the same god make different rules (covenants) with different people? I thought all were equal in this god's eyes?Why does one group believe Jesus was the son of this god, another group thinks he is a messiah and prophet, and yet another group not acknowledge him as any of these things. Did this god fail to inform someone?
Why does one group predominantly view this god as triune while the other two believe he is singular?
Why does one group believe Jesus was crucified, buried and rose three days later while another group believes he did not die but instead ascended to heaven on the cross?
These are major differences IMHO, and would not happen if all three groups had the same god. That tells me either they don't have the same god, this god simply does not exist at all, this god fails to communicate effectively, or just doesn't give a darn.
Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 06 2010,23:09)
I was only pointing out that I had reason for total disillusionment with Christianity for a number of reasons.Seems to me it should be a disillusionment with life, because bad things happen to all humans regardless of religious beliefs. I don't recall anyone in the bible saying your life would be problem free once you accepted Jesus.
Quote I'm sorry you believe I wanted revenge, I wanted justice (they are different). Justice and revenge can be very similar if it means one person wants the other to be punished for what they have done. If the punishment is carried out personally, it is revenge, if by others, justice. See? Not that much difference.
Quote We have prayed for this individual from day one. I will rejoice if he repents on his deathbed though I would prefer it sooner, his soul is of far more value then what was stolen from us. As far as escaping punishment if he repents, I was also due punishment for the things I had done (and I must admit probably still do to some extent) but I believe we will be judged after the same fashion that we judge others and love covers a multitude of sins. If you really believe this, you should go to this other person and seek his forgiveness. You should also seek out this punishment if you truly think you deserve it. Or are you saying you are going to wait until you get to heaven to let your god decide?
Quote I can only answer why I believe, what I believe. I stand ready to show why I believe scriptures are true and worthy of entrusting my life and desires based on what they teach. It boils down that if you refuse to see scriptures as anything more then human reasoning then any writing from anyone is just as valid. Is the Rigveda nothing more than human reasoning? How about the Gathas of Zarathushtra? The Quran? Book of Mormon? Kitab-i-Aqbas? Tao-te Ching?
The above are the sacred texts of other religions. If you can show that the other texts are false while showing your sacred text is true, then you'll have something.
Quote I disagree, the Bible provides a realistic creation timeline and is far more plausible then everything from nothing and complex design by trillions of accidents. So humanity is truly only 6000 years old?
And why should I believe the Abrahamic creation story is any more valid than Hindu one? Or for that fact, any of the various other creation myths out there? None of the writers/storytellers were actually there, so no one can vouch for the validity of any of them.
At least with science, research continues. With the various religions, it is settled simply because someone long ago said that it happened a certain way.
Quote
I was not searching for a god 30 years ago, I was searching for truth.Where did you search?
Quote Cake is a taste and subject to personal preference, truth is an absolute. Choice of which god to worship is also subject to personal preference. If this were not so, there would be only one religion.
Many religious adherents claim to be seeking — or even to have found — “truth” in their religion. Some serve this “truth” their whole lives. Yet they cannot all be right, can they?
But if you instead realize that religious beliefs are based on preference, then it all makes much more sense. Such an attitude would also likely lessen conflicts between religions as well as towards those who believe in none of it.
But no, people say they are the ones with the “truth” about some god or another, so they feel they hold the superior position.
People who like chocolate cake do not tend to look down at those who prefer yellow. But different religious adherents often look down on those who do not share their beliefs. This extends to people inside of the same religion, as this board attests to very convincingly.
Quote The trouble is people try to make a god in the image of their personal preference. I can only speak for myself on this but what I have learned of God is nothing like what I thought God would be, and I am a totally different person then what I would have been on my own. Maybe, maybe not. You believe so, but any life decision can change us, regardless of its spiritual connotations. Career choices, whether to marry, who we marry, having children, taking up a hobby, etc.
And yes, even you have made your god into your own image of him, regardless of what you say. You try to confine this view inside of the characteristics given to him in the bible, but you still do not have the same view of him as other Christians. If you did, you would not likely be on this board.
Quote
Christianity was not the first belief I looked at 30 years ago, and to be honest some of the others held more appeal to me but truth is not found through appeal but through something far deeper with truth realized (I know that you see it no different then what most others would say, but it is what it is)Wm, you keep tossing this word “truth” around, but you've yet to show me how what you believe is really true. That is what I am trying to get people to do in this thread, but as I suspected, all I am getting is personal beliefs.
And just as my example on food before, I can mimic what you said above.
Chicken was not the first meat I ever tried and liked. Steak had much more appeal to me, but to be honest, while I enjoy the taste more, I realize that chicken is better for my health.
See how that works?
Quote Once again I see scriptures embodying truth, however I agree that snippets of scriptures have been used, probably since they were written, to manipulate and control all who would follow but truth does set you free My opinion – Wm
I've met people who follow a different spiritual path, and they also claim they have freedom. And there are many
atheists who feel that they are much more free now that they are not under the bondage of superstition. Yet an atheist cannot disprove any gods, while the Christian cannot prove his god and religion is valid. All they can say is what they now believe is best for them.Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 07 2010,22:02) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 06 2010,21:37) Yes it is about Covenants not about “gods” Restrictions are given according to the people.
Why does the same god make different rules (covenants) with different people? I thought all were equal in this god's eyes?Why does one group believe Jesus was the son of this god, another group thinks he is a messiah and prophet, and yet another group not acknowledge him as any of these things. Did this god fail to inform someone?
Why does one group predominantly view this god as triune while the other two believe he is singular?
Why does one group believe Jesus was crucified, buried and rose three days later while another group believes he did not die but instead ascended to heaven on the cross?
These are major differences IMHO, and would not happen if all three groups had the same god. That tells me either they don't have the same god, this god simply does not exist at all, this god fails to communicate effectively, or just doesn't give a darn.
Why are some people democrats and others RepublicansWhy are there capitalist, socialist, communists…etc?
Aren't we all human beings?
Your logic is weak. When we learn different things we all don't agree at the same time if their are social and religious implications
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 07 2010,18:47) Why are some people democrats and others Republicans Because people differ in their viewpoint. Has nothing to do with any god.
Quote Why are there capitalist, socialist, communists…etc? Because people differ in their viewpoint. Has nothing to do with any god.
Quote Aren't we all human beings? Yes, and that includes atheists.
Quote Your logic is weak. When we learn different things we all don't agree at the same time if their are social and religious implications
My logic has nothing to do with it. Your god is supposed to be the leader of your religion, yet you seem to think that man is responsible.Well guess what?
So do I.
Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 08 2010,14:07) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 07 2010,18:47) Why are some people democrats and others Republicans Because people differ in their viewpoint. Has nothing to do with any god.
Quote Why are there capitalist, socialist, communists…etc? Because people differ in their viewpoint. Has nothing to do with any god.
Quote Aren't we all human beings? Yes, and that includes atheists.
Quote Your logic is weak. When we learn different things we all don't agree at the same time if their are social and religious implications
My logic has nothing to do with it. Your god is supposed to be the leader of your religion, yet you seem to think that man is responsible.Well guess what?
So do I.
Good, then we agree.The Quran states that man agreed to be resposible
Lo! We offered the trust unto the heavens and the earth and the hills, but they shrank from bearing it and were afraid of it. And man assumed it. Lo! he hath proved a tyrant and a fool.
( سورة الأحزاب , Al-Ahzab, Chapter #33, Verse #72)also the bible states:
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Genesis 1:25-27and the Quran further states:
5) And We verily did allot unto the Children of Israel a fixed abode, and did provide them with good things; and they differed not until the knowledge came unto them. Lo! thy Lord will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that wherein they used to differ.
( سورة يونس , Yunus, Chapter #10, Verse #93)So, it comes back around then eh? If man runs the show according to your faith, why should I believe in your god while not believing in another?
Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 07 2010,22:02) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 06 2010,21:37) Yes it is about Covenants not about “gods” Restrictions are given according to the people.
Why does the same god make different rules (covenants) with different people? I thought all were equal in this god's eyes?Why does one group believe Jesus was the son of this god, another group thinks he is a messiah and prophet, and yet another group not acknowledge him as any of these things. Did this god fail to inform someone?
Why does one group predominantly view this god as triune while the other two believe he is singular?
Why does one group believe Jesus was crucified, buried and rose three days later while another group believes he did not die but instead ascended to heaven on the cross?
Prob because everyones in Babylon -(confusion)
Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 08 2010,22:13) So, it comes back around then eh? If man runs the show according to your faith, why should I believe in your god while not believing in another?
There is no “other” God, why is it you keep asking me about “other” gods?That is why I said that Atheist have Polytheistic minds.
Different beliefs are not different “gods” just different understandings about “One GOD”
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