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Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 23 2010,17:16) Kejonn and STU Are you prepared to state that every Jew is a child abuser who should have their children taken away from them?
Jews taught that circumcision of their children is a commandment of God, so they take their 8 day old sons and cut the flesh of their foreskins off in obedience to God. Since you believe there is no God wouldn't that mean that the Jews have been teaching that doing surgery on newborns is acceptable? Wouldn't that be child abuse?
No, I would not say they are child abusers. They are simply misguided. They are passing on beliefs that have no basis in reality. Its like telling the kids to believe in Santa or the Tooth Fairy, except that they grow out of those silly beliefs.Quote (Stu @ Jan. 24 2010,22:06) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 24 2010,18:04) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 24 2010,16:52) Why did you add the 'should have their children taken away from them' bit? No I do not agree with that absurd position. I agree that all muslim and Jewish parents, and in fact anyone of any delusion is committing an abuse of human rights if they have their infant male sons circumcised for non-medical reasons.
By number, it is overwhelmingly an abuse of children by their muslims parents.
Stuart
So you believe that abused children should not be taken from their parents?
Well I am happy to hear you argue that circumcised muslim children should be removed from their parents. I would disagree that it would be in the best interests of the children to do so. After all those children will be exposed to more and more anti-human nonsense if their parents do indoctrinate them in islam, so there may be even better reasons to do so later on than the abusive act of genital mutilation, which in many islamic countries is not restricted to male children.There is a population-wide shift in attitude required, one that actually allows people to accept that children and women have human rights, such as that to be left intact until they can decide for themselves whether they want to be part of this lunatic belief system and its mindless rituals, and indeed to be free to remain free of religion if they want.
Do you champion such rights too?
Stuart
No, I myself am circumcised and for one it seems to be much cleaner as others who are not tell me that have to be careful the benefits include a decrease in physical problems involving a tight foreskin and Lower incidence of inflammation of the head of the penis.The fact is Abraham was told by God to get circumcised as a sign of their covenant. This was taught and handed down by the Jews.
Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 25 2010,01:31) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 23 2010,17:16) Kejonn and STU Are you prepared to state that every Jew is a child abuser who should have their children taken away from them?
Jews taught that circumcision of their children is a commandment of God, so they take their 8 day old sons and cut the flesh of their foreskins off in obedience to God. Since you believe there is no God wouldn't that mean that the Jews have been teaching that doing surgery on newborns is acceptable? Wouldn't that be child abuse?
No, I would not say they are child abusers. They are simply misguided. They are passing on beliefs that have no basis in reality. Its like telling the kids to believe in Santa or the Tooth Fairy, except that they grow out of those silly beliefs.
KeJonn,Are you saying that “misguided” parents who elect to have surgical procedures done on their children are not abusing them? What if they elected to have a surgery that removed the thumbs of children, would that be abuse?
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 24 2010,22:10) Quote What does intelligent and dirt have to do with the comparison? It is not even a Muslim comparison it is from the Bible of those Jews that are greedy and crafty, not all Jews. That is in the bible a book about Jews written by Jews.
I would have to ask you that. Are you saying that it is wrong for muslims to make derogatory comparisons between what they thing are the dirty habits of pigs and Jewish people? Are you rejecting the characterisation of Jews as 'greedy an crafty'?You are the first person here to use those adjectives in this context. Where did you get them from?
Quote The funny thing is you think that the righteous Jews who are obedient to God are the ones who are crafty and fraudulent.
Where did I write that? Do you not respect the libel laws?Stuart
The bible talks about those Jews who were disobedient to God, The Bible talks about Jews using Guile and craftiness, that is why I asked you why would The Jews write negative things about themselves if they were valid.Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 25 2010,06:24) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 24 2010,22:10) Quote What does intelligent and dirt have to do with the comparison? It is not even a Muslim comparison it is from the Bible of those Jews that are greedy and crafty, not all Jews. That is in the bible a book about Jews written by Jews.
I would have to ask you that. Are you saying that it is wrong for muslims to make derogatory comparisons between what they thing are the dirty habits of pigs and Jewish people? Are you rejecting the characterisation of Jews as 'greedy an crafty'?You are the first person here to use those adjectives in this context. Where did you get them from?
Quote The funny thing is you think that the righteous Jews who are obedient to God are the ones who are crafty and fraudulent.
Where did I write that? Do you not respect the libel laws?Stuart
The bible talks about those Jews who were disobedient to God, The Bible talks about Jews using Guile and craftiness, that is why I asked you why would The Jews write negative things about themselves if they were valid.
Well the Jews that did the writing are not describing themselves, are they. They are describing other Jews.Stuart
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 25 2010,06:18) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 24 2010,22:06) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 24 2010,18:04) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 24 2010,16:52) Why did you add the 'should have their children taken away from them' bit? No I do not agree with that absurd position. I agree that all muslim and Jewish parents, and in fact anyone of any delusion is committing an abuse of human rights if they have their infant male sons circumcised for non-medical reasons.
By number, it is overwhelmingly an abuse of children by their muslims parents.
Stuart
So you believe that abused children should not be taken from their parents?
Well I am happy to hear you argue that circumcised muslim children should be removed from their parents. I would disagree that it would be in the best interests of the children to do so. After all those children will be exposed to more and more anti-human nonsense if their parents do indoctrinate them in islam, so there may be even better reasons to do so later on than the abusive act of genital mutilation, which in many islamic countries is not restricted to male children.There is a population-wide shift in attitude required, one that actually allows people to accept that children and women have human rights, such as that to be left intact until they can decide for themselves whether they want to be part of this lunatic belief system and its mindless rituals, and indeed to be free to remain free of religion if they want.
Do you champion such rights too?
Stuart
No, I myself am circumcised and for one it seems to be much cleaner as others who are not tell me that have to be careful the benefits include a decrease in physical problems involving a tight foreskin and Lower incidence of inflammation of the head of the penis.The fact is Abraham was told by God to get circumcised as a sign of their covenant. This was taught and handed down by the Jews.
What a brilliant designer eh, if the first thing you are told to do with your newborn son is to modify his design because it is flawed.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 24 2010,22:06) I would disagree that it would be in the best interests of the children to do so.
Stuart
Hi Stuart,I thought you were a man of science? Science suggests that circumcision
greatly reduces the chances of females contracting cervical cancer.
Science also suggests that on the “Eighth” day after a male child is born,
his blood clotting capacity is at it's highest, the “Exact” day “The Bible” says to conduct this procedure!
1Timothy 6:20: O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust,
avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:Are you also against inoculations for children to protect others against diseases?
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Jan. 25 2010,10:21) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 24 2010,22:06) I would disagree that it would be in the best interests of the children to do so.
Stuart
Hi Stuart,I thought you were a man of science? Science suggests that circumcision
greatly reduces the chances of females contracting cervical cancer.
Science also suggests that on the “Eighth” day after a male child is born,
his blood clotting capacity is at it's highest, the “Exact” day “The Bible” says to conduct this procedure!
1Timothy 6:20: O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust,
avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:Are you also against inoculations for children to protect others against diseases?
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
There is now a vaccine for the main cause of cervical cancer, human papilloma virus, so wouldn't you say circumcision is a bit of an extreme attempt at a preventive measure?You can see I am for vaccination. It is a way of us overcoming many of the microorganisms that you would have us believe were created as part of your god's master plan.
Some brutal plan that is.
I don't believe you that there is a specific DAY after birth when 'clotting capacity is at its highest', although I am prepared for you to show me I am wrong to doubt it. Can you?
Even if this were true, it is not actually a reason for chopping off a perfectly functional and useful part of the penis, is it! You could argue on the same basis that since infants are less likely to perceive the trauma of the event later in life we could remove a few fingers within their first six months of life, with almost no psychological effects whatever.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 25 2010,10:56) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 25 2010,10:21) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 24 2010,22:06) I would disagree that it would be in the best interests of the children to do so.
Stuart
Hi Stuart,I thought you were a man of science? Science suggests that circumcision
greatly reduces the chances of females contracting cervical cancer.
Science also suggests that on the “Eighth” day after a male child is born,
his blood clotting capacity is at it's highest, the “Exact” day “The Bible” says to conduct this procedure!
1Timothy 6:20: O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust,
avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:Are you also against inoculations for children to protect others against diseases?
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
There is now a vaccine for the main cause of cervical cancer, human papilloma virus, so wouldn't you say circumcision is a bit of an extreme attempt at a preventive measure?You can see I am for vaccination. It is a way of us overcoming many of the microorganisms that you would have us believe were created as part of your god's master plan.
Some brutal plan that is.
I don't believe you that there is a specific DAY after birth when 'clotting capacity is at its highest', although I am prepared for you to show me I am wrong to doubt it. Can you?
Even if this were true, it is not actually a reason for chopping off a perfectly functional and useful part of the penis, is it! You could argue on the same basis that since infants are less likely to perceive the trauma of the event later in life we could remove a few fingers within their first six months of life, with almost no psychological effects whatever.
Stuart
Hi Stuart,Prov:18:13: He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.
The Eighth day clotting can be looked up on the internet; you are more skilled at computers than I.
Did they have vaccines when God told Moses to circumcise infant baby boys; NO.God also told the children of Israel Not to eat pork and to bleed animals.
Bleeding animals keeps the meat from putrefying; a practice we continue to this day!
And pigs don't sweat (and are scavengers). Sweating is was causes toxins to leave the body.
What accounts for this unknown knowledge(Science) in Biblical times, if not an “Intelligence” not bound by time?
1Timothy 6:20: O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust,
avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Stu @ Jan. 25 2010,10:56) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 25 2010,10:21) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 24 2010,22:06) I would disagree that it would be in the best interests of the children to do so.
Stuart
Hi Stuart,I thought you were a man of science? Science suggests that circumcision
greatly reduces the chances of females contracting cervical cancer.
Science also suggests that on the “Eighth” day after a male child is born,
his blood clotting capacity is at it's highest, the “Exact” day “The Bible” says to conduct this procedure!
1Timothy 6:20: O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust,
avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:Are you also against inoculations for children to protect others against diseases?
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
There is now a vaccine for the main cause of cervical cancer, human papilloma virus, so wouldn't you say circumcision is a bit of an extreme attempt at a preventive measure?You can see I am for vaccination. It is a way of us overcoming many of the microorganisms that you would have us believe were created as part of your god's master plan.
Some brutal plan that is.
I don't believe you that there is a specific DAY after birth when 'clotting capacity is at its highest', although I am prepared for you to show me I am wrong to doubt it. Can you?
Even if this were true, it is not actually a reason for chopping off a perfectly functional and useful part of the penis, is it! You could argue on the same basis that since infants are less likely to perceive the trauma of the event later in life we could remove a few fingers within their first six months of life, with almost no psychological effects whatever.
Stuart
WHAT:
“If G-dGod wanted us circumcised, why didn't He create us that way?” That compelling question was asked to the great Talmudic authority, Rabbi Akiva. He answered with a little illustration. “G-dGod wants us to have bread, yet bread and rolls don't grow in the fields. G-dGod wants us to be clothed, yet suits and dresses don't grow on sheep.” (See Medrash Tanchuma, Tazria 5 and Bereishis Rabbah 11:6)G-dGod provides us with raw materials and it is up to man to perfect and enhance them. Food, clothes, and even our places of habitat are all commodities that we put together from what we are provided with by our generous Creator.
Man, too, needs to be perfected. The act of ritual circumcision brings man to that perfection. The Torah itself uses the word 'perfect' in recording G-dGod's command to Abraham that he circumcise himself. “Go before Me and become perfect,” (Bereishis/Genesis 17:1) is the way the topic of ritual circumcision is introduced.
The bris on an infant is the culmination of his creation. First, there is the wonder of conception, then the miracle of the formation of the embryo as the mother nurtures the newborn within her, and finally a child is born. The child is complete but is not yet perfect. For this too-often-taken-for-granted miracle of birth to be considered perfect, there is one final step, Bris Milah, (The Covenant of Circumcision.)
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WHY:
The mark of circumcision is an irrevocable mark of Jewish identity. The bris ceremony accentuates the newborn's connection with the generations before him who bore this symbol of Jewish identity dating back to Abraham. It is for this reason that a Jewish boy gets his Hebrew name at the bris as it is all part of the 'Jewish identification ceremony.' Interestingly, our patriarch Abraham, who performed the first bris (on himself,) was given a new name on that occasion. Previously his name was Avram; at his bris the letter 'Hey' was added and his name became Avraham. The message of bris milah is that man must improve and refine. At the outset of a Jew's life the amending process begins. That was Rabbi Akiva's message. G-dGod gives only so much and we must perfect the rest.
For Abraham the act of ritual circumcision was a conclusion – the attainment of perfection. He had lived his life dedicated to G-dGod and His Will. To later generations circumcision was a sign of the covenant that G-dGod made with Abraham reminding us to strive towards the perfection that Abraham reached. A boy who is not circumcised is lacking his essential spiritual connection to the Jewish people.
Yet the bris is also an inaugural ceremony. It is not an end, but a beginning. It starts the child's spiritual development and the beginning of his fulfillment of G-dGod's life-designation for man – the adherence of Torah and Mitzvos.
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WHERE:
G-dGod chose the male place of gender as the part of the body to impart His Covenant because from there begins the process of bringing down a soul from Heaven and creating a new generation. Interestingly, before Abraham fathered Isaac he was commanded by G-dGod to circumcise himself. Only then did Sarah become pregnant with the second of the patriarchs.
Over the years circumcision has been found to be medically beneficial. For years medical researchers claimed that it reduced penile cancers and urinary tract infections and added to easier hygiene thus pediatrics academies routinely recommended circumcision for male infants. Later studies questioned the validity of earlier research and soon academies held back on recommending circumcision for all male infants. However, Jews never performed circumcision for medical, cosmetic, or hygienic reasons. It is purely an act of faith and commitment. Hence, traditional Jews have stayed away from the heated debate of circumcision's health benefits. If they exist, fine. If not, we circumcise anyway just as we have been doing it for thousands of years. And Jews shall continue doing it until the end of time with pride and valor.
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WHO:
Because the act of ritual circumcision is one of holiness and faith and manifests our commitment to the mitzvah that G-dGod instructed Abraham, Jews always sought a virtuous Jewish personality to perform their son's bris, not merely a secular individual who knew the technique and was taught to recite blessings. The mohel should be one steeped in Torah knowledge and trained in the medical and physiological aspects of circumcision. A mohel should be a righteous, G-dGod fearing, observant Jew in the tradition of the first mohel, our patriarch Abraham.
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WHEN:
The bris should be performed on the eighth day of the child's life, counting the day of his birth as the first day, provided that he was born before sundown. Although the Torah gives no specific reason for it being performed on the eighth day, it states twice (see Bereishis/Genisis 17:12 and Vayikra/Leviticus 12:3) that it must be done then. A child who is underweight or who has a health condition that may compromise his healing process or capacity to undergo the operation must have his bris delayed. One should consult with their mohel and pediatrician before determining these delays.
There
is great significance and symbolism in Jewish law and tradition in the number 'eight'. For an extensive discussion on the topic, see Rabbi Krohn's book on bris milah published by Artscroll⁄Mesorah, p. 52). Interestingly though, the clotting factor in an infant is highest on the eight day. The major clotting agents, vitamin K and prothrombin, do not reach peak levels in the blood until the eighth day of life. One study showed that by the eighth day prothrombin levels reach 110 percent of normal. Dr Armand J. Quick, author of several books on the control of bleeding said, “It hardly seems accidental that the rite of circumcision was postponed until the eighth day by the Mosaic law.”A bris may never be performed at night, nor may it be done before the eighth day.
Ritual circumcision is perhaps the only religious commandment that is observed by all segments of Jewry – Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and the non-affiliated. It is a time of joy and celebration for the family, a time of overwhelming feelings of gratitude and fulfillment that makes the bris day one to remember forever.
http://www.brisquest.com/theritual.html
ED was right about the clotting factor
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 25 2010,12:18) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 25 2010,10:56) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 25 2010,10:21) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 24 2010,22:06) I would disagree that it would be in the best interests of the children to do so.
Stuart
Hi Stuart,I thought you were a man of science? Science suggests that circumcision
greatly reduces the chances of females contracting cervical cancer.
Science also suggests that on the “Eighth” day after a male child is born,
his blood clotting capacity is at it's highest, the “Exact” day “The Bible” says to conduct this procedure!
1Timothy 6:20: O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust,
avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:Are you also against inoculations for children to protect others against diseases?
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
There is now a vaccine for the main cause of cervical cancer, human papilloma virus, so wouldn't you say circumcision is a bit of an extreme attempt at a preventive measure?You can see I am for vaccination. It is a way of us overcoming many of the microorganisms that you would have us believe were created as part of your god's master plan.
Some brutal plan that is.
I don't believe you that there is a specific DAY after birth when 'clotting capacity is at its highest', although I am prepared for you to show me I am wrong to doubt it. Can you?
Even if this were true, it is not actually a reason for chopping off a perfectly functional and useful part of the penis, is it! You could argue on the same basis that since infants are less likely to perceive the trauma of the event later in life we could remove a few fingers within their first six months of life, with almost no psychological effects whatever.
Stuart
Hi Stuart,Prov:18:13: He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.
The Eighth day clotting can be looked up on the internet; you are more skilled at computers than I.
Did they have vaccines when God told Moses to circumcise infant baby boys; NO.God also told the children of Israel Not to eat pork and to bleed animals.
Bleeding animals keeps the meat from putrefying; a practice we continue to this day!
And pigs don't sweat (and are scavengers). Sweating is was causes toxins to leave the body.
What accounts for this unknown knowledge(Science) in Biblical times, if not an “Intelligence” not bound by time?
1Timothy 6:20: O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust,
avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Very good points here ED even a man of science should recognize these scientific facts but most Atheist are not men of science, they have the ATHEISTS DISEASE they will not accept any amount or research or evidence of God.Quote And pigs don't sweat (and are scavengers). Sweating is was causes toxins to leave the body. How could these ancient people know these things? Even in Muhammads time many things were finally allowed to be eaten but the pork and bleeding the animals remained the two most important things to follow. Even Jesus sent the wicked spirits into the pigs and act that shows that even Jesus at that point did not accept pigs as food.
Today we can cure pork but it is not healthy to all people some can not eat it as it raises the blood pressure in many. God never prohibited us from doing anything to suppress or oppress us but instead we were denied things that are harmful to us.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 24 2010,13:20) Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 25 2010,01:31) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 23 2010,17:16) Kejonn and STU Are you prepared to state that every Jew is a child abuser who should have their children taken away from them?
Jews taught that circumcision of their children is a commandment of God, so they take their 8 day old sons and cut the flesh of their foreskins off in obedience to God. Since you believe there is no God wouldn't that mean that the Jews have been teaching that doing surgery on newborns is acceptable? Wouldn't that be child abuse?
No, I would not say they are child abusers. They are simply misguided. They are passing on beliefs that have no basis in reality. Its like telling the kids to believe in Santa or the Tooth Fairy, except that they grow out of those silly beliefs.
KeJonn,Are you saying that “misguided” parents who elect to have surgical procedures done on their children are not abusing them? What if they elected to have a surgery that removed the thumbs of children, would that be abuse?
Has anyone told you that removal of a thumb was for sanitary reasons?I was circumcised, not because of religious beliefs, but because the popular medical belief was that it was more sanitary to not have the extra skin.
You look worse with each fallacy you present.
Ed
Quote Prov:18:13: He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.
The Eighth day clotting can be looked up on the internet; you are more skilled at computers than I.
Ok, as you cannot back up this statement I will assume it is a myth.Quote Did they have vaccines when God told Moses to circumcise infant baby boys; NO.
What was the reason given in the Torah for circumcision? Was it a ritualistic one to do with covenants, or a medical one?Quote God also told the children of Israel Not to eat pork and to bleed animals.
Bleeding animals keeps the meat from putrefying; a practice we continue to this day!
And pigs don't sweat (and are scavengers). Sweating is was causes toxins to leave the body.
So it is really dangerous to eat bacon and pork chops then. Maybe you should tell everyone in the world who enjoys a ham steak from time to time.Quote What accounts for this unknown knowledge(Science) in Biblical times, if not an “Intelligence” not bound by time?
There is no way to tell from the torah or the koran, because as usual it uselessly doesn’t tell you why. Of course it would have been pretty obvious that pig meat can give you disease (trichinosis) as can blood (it is an excellent support medium for microorganisms). Nothing magical about that knowledge. If the OT had recorded the existence of disease-causing agents smaller than you can see then that would have been surprising. But it doesn’t, does it.Quote 1Timothy 6:20: O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust,
avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
While I reserve the right to be profane, otherwise I agree with Paul’s little friend. Creationism is definitely vain babblings.Stuart
BD
Quote “If G-dGod wanted us circumcised, why didn't He create us that way?” That compelling question was asked to the great Talmudic authority, Rabbi Akiva. He answered with a little illustration. “G-dGod wants us to have bread, yet bread and rolls don't grow in the fields. G-dGod wants us to be clothed, yet suits and dresses don't grow on sheep.” (See Medrash Tanchuma, Tazria 5 and Bereishis Rabbah 11:6) G-dGod provides us with raw materials and it is up to man to perfect and enhance them. Food, clothes, and even our places of habitat are all commodities that we put together from what we are provided with by our generous Creator.
Man, too, needs to be perfected. The act of ritual circumcision brings man to that perfection. The Torah itself uses the word 'perfect' in recording G-dGod's command to Abraham that he circumcise himself. “Go before Me and become perfect,” (Bereishis/Genesis 17:1) is the way the topic of ritual circumcision is introduced.
What a load of try-hard bollocks. The foreskin has function. If these people believe that their bodies were created as part of a master plan by an omniscient god, how is it they can improve on that body by chopping off a functional bit of it?Quote Over the years circumcision has been found to be medically beneficial. For years medical researchers claimed that it reduced penile cancers and urinary tract infections and added to easier hygiene thus pediatrics academies routinely recommended circumcision for male infants. Later studies questioned the validity of earlier research and soon academies held back on recommending circumcision for all male infants.
Yes those arguments are all spurious. There are very few conditions helped by removal of the foreskin, and very few children suffer from any of them.Quote However, Jews never performed circumcision for medical, cosmetic, or hygienic reasons. It is purely an act of faith and commitment. Hence, traditional Jews have stayed away from the heated debate of circumcision's health benefits. If they exist, fine. If not, we circumcise anyway just as we have been doing it for thousands of years. And Jews shall continue doing it until the end of time with pride and valor.
Doctors would expect to be sued for operating without consent, the operation is completely superfluous except for reasons of superstition, and yet rabbis are allowed to mutilate the penis of an infant boy without its consent and suck it as well!And before anyone is tempted to start on the whole thing about parents taking decisions on behalf of their children, there is no reason that the boy could not wait until he was of majority age before making this decision for himself. Except for the adage get ‘em while they are young.
Mythology says that abraham did not circumcise himself until he was 99. Pretty obvious that rates of uptake of this ritual would be considerably lower if boys we allowed to grow a bit and came to know what was involved and the negative consequences for them.
Islamic belief results in the most circumcisions in the world, and that is pretty consistent with the complete lack of respect for human rights shown in so many other aspects of its doctrine. Yes, that goes for rabbis too.
Quote ED was right about the clotting factor
So you say. Can you provide a link to a medical reference for it? All I got was jewish apologist websites, like the one you copied from, none of which cited any medical study to support the assertion.Infant circumcision for ritualistic reasons should be illegal. Why isn’t it?
Stuart
BD
Quote How could these ancient people know these things? Even in Muhammads time many things were finally allowed to be eaten but the pork and bleeding the animals remained the two most important things to follow. Even Jesus sent the wicked spirits into the pigs and act that shows that even Jesus at that point did not accept pigs as food. You are full of painting ancients as ignorant except for all the divine info they were getting, which curiously we seem no longer to get.
How could they know pigs don't sweat? Duh!
How could they know that pig mean can make you ill? By getting ill from eating pig meat??
How could they know that bleeding make meat fitter for consumption? By getting ill when the meat was not properly bled??Religious 'revelation' has NEVER told us anything we didn't already know!
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 25 2010,13:37) Ed Quote Prov:18:13: He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.
The Eighth day clotting can be looked up on the internet; you are more skilled at computers than I.
Ok, as you cannot back up this statement I will assume it is a myth.Quote Did they have vaccines when God told Moses to circumcise infant baby boys; NO.
What was the reason given in the Torah for circumcision? Was it a ritualistic one to do with covenants, or a medical one?Quote God also told the children of Israel Not to eat pork and to bleed animals.
Bleeding animals keeps the meat from putrefying; a practice we continue to this day!
And pigs don't sweat (and are scavengers). Sweating is was causes toxins to leave the body.
So it is really dangerous to eat bacon and pork chops then. Maybe you should tell everyone in the world who enjoys a ham steak from time to time.Quote What accounts for this unknown knowledge(Science) in Biblical times, if not an “Intelligence” not bound by time?
There is no way to tell from the torah or the koran, because as usual it uselessly doesn’t tell you why. Of course it would have been pretty obvious that pig meat can give you disease (trichinosis) as can blood (it is an excellent support medium for microorganisms). Nothing magical about that knowledge. If the OT had recorded the existence of disease-causing agents smaller than you can see then that would have been surprising. But it doesn’t, does it.Quote 1Timothy 6:20: O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust,
avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
While I reserve the right to be profane, otherwise I agree with Paul’s little friend. Creationism is definitely vain babblings.Stuart
Hi Stuart,You can consider the clotting factor on the eighth day to be a myth if you like, but you can also investigate to find it's true!
You already know why eating pig in Biblical times was unhealthy!
I told you the health aspects of circumcision. And you already know why beading animals is important!
These are compounding circumstantial evidences to suggest an “Intelligence” not bound by time, which can even be labeled as “GOD”!
Plus all the other circumstantial evidences I have already shown to you, which you turn your back on as well!
You can get a mathematician to calculate the probability factor of the “Theomatics”(numbers related to Scripture) I have provided as well!
You choosing to disregard these FACTS in NO WAY changes “The Truth” of what I tell you!
Compounded Circumstantial evidences can be seen as REAL PROOF that God exists!Ed J
Ed
Quote You can consider the clotting factor on the eighth day to be a myth if you like, but you can also investigate to find it's true!
I did, and I couldn’t find any mention of it. Since you claimed it, then it is up to you to show us that it has some substance. A rabbi who ritually sucks the blood off the penis of an infant boy is someone whom I think should not be trusted on anything to do with it! (Children have been given herpes by this means).Although, there is nothing surprising about knowing that clotting efficiency improves over the course of a week. Any old penis-sucking rabbi would eventually notice that the further you went into the first week of life, the better the clotting became. It might have been one of the five Moses writing in the torah who noticed it first.
Quote You already know why eating pig in Biblical times was unhealthy!
Yup. And so did they. And no divine revelation should have been needed for them to know.Quote I told you the health aspects of circumcision.
Yes, and none of them were good reasons to mutilate newborn babies.Quote And you already know why beading animals is important!
I don’t think you need to behead them. Just cut the carotid artery and hang the carcass.Quote These are compounding circumstantial evidences to suggest an “Intelligence” not bound by time, which can even be labeled as “GOD”!
Nope. No need for superstitious magic. All these things should have been pretty obvious to the ancients.Quote You can get a mathematician to calculate the probability factor of the “Theomatics”(numbers related to Scripture) I have provided as well![.quote]
Yes, I remember all that, Dan. I also remember that you have never got a mathematician to do that calculation, and so you are just claiming it WITHOUT any evidence at all. And then once you have, of course it is evidence for two gods, after all how could one god have possibly come up with all those random numbers.You choosing to disregard these FACTS in NO WAY changes “The Truth” of what I tell you!
Compounded Circumstantial evidences can be seen as REAL PROOF that God exists!
Yes, if there was any.Stuart
Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 25 2010,12:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 24 2010,13:20) Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 25 2010,01:31) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 23 2010,17:16) Kejonn and STU Are you prepared to state that every Jew is a child abuser who should have their children taken away from them?
Jews taught that circumcision of their children is a commandment of God, so they take their 8 day old sons and cut the flesh of their foreskins off in obedience to God. Since you believe there is no God wouldn't that mean that the Jews have been teaching that doing surgery on newborns is acceptable? Wouldn't that be child abuse?
No, I would not say they are child abusers. They are simply misguided. They are passing on beliefs that have no basis in reality. Its like telling the kids to believe in Santa or the Tooth Fairy, except that they grow out of those silly beliefs.
KeJonn,Are you saying that “misguided” parents who elect to have surgical procedures done on their children are not abusing them? What if they elected to have a surgery that removed the thumbs of children, would that be abuse?
Has anyone told you that removal of a thumb was for sanitary reasons?I was circumcised, not because of religious beliefs, but because the popular medical belief was that it was more sanitary to not have the extra skin.
You look worse with each fallacy you present.
You said it was based on misguided beliefs are you changing the story now?What if someone believed that thumbs were evil and and believed they had to be removed?
The fact is you don't think that circumcision is child abuse but the quetion is why would anyone decide to circumcize their children and not just you but your whole Nation as Israel did?
Are all Jews misguided parents?
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