Karmarie

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 20 2009,19:32)

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 20 2009,17:32)

Quote

Why is the Bibles center Chapter, the smallest Chapter of the Largest Book?

Huh?

Stuart

Hi Stuart,

Have you ever heard of a fractal?

Chapter 117 illustrates fractal consistency concerning…
“GOD The Father”=117

Despite God's enormity he is concerned with the seemingly insignificant!

That's you Stuart, you are NOT insignificant, you were created in God's image.

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

What does “Muhammad Christ” equal?

December 21, 2009 at 5:16 am#165620

Participant

Quote

To be honest, this is what I have been saying all along. The essense of God is a Quality within a person and not a proclamation. When this Quality is with someone it is a reward within itself therefore many Sufi mystics have stated that “Lord, if I follow you simply to enter heaven send me to hell”

So there is little point in shouting ‘god is great’. I heard in recent coverage of the Iranian elections that people would call this from house to house and the impression I got was that it was being used as a kind of political statement of rebellion or somesuch. Would be interested to know how that works!

Quote

There is nothing inherently wrong with anyone and there is no original sin that affects anyone. Any weakness at birth is simply a process of building strength.

Hear hear.

Quote

You may be closer to experiencing God than you think and those who doubt you may be further away from experiencing God than they think. Understand the Quality Stu and you will be there in no time because I will tell you I don't want anyone dying for me it is mine to own just like my birth and whether there be a thousand heavens or none God is the Quality of my experience whether for a day or forever.

The whole concept of god is ugly. Gods’ minds cannot be determined and if they are creators of the universe it is almost certain that we cannot understand their processes, because we cannot understand by what process those gods came into being. Either gods are entirely neutral, or they deceive. I’m not sure what the koran says about your god but the Judeo-christian god is described as a deceiving god. Therefore we have been given large, curious brains that naturally want to explore the nature of the universe but if there are unfathomable supernatural beings doing magic then that curiosity is ultimately frustrated. Why would a god instill such a property as curiosity if it turns out that it cannot be adequate for reaching the level of understanding we have been ‘created’ to desire? Unless it is a cruel god.

You can see why I have little agreement with those who invoke supernatural creators. There is no unambiguous evidence for them and even with our relatively paltry knowledge there is nothing that is made more intellectually satisfying by attributing it to divine magic. I happen to think the universe is beautiful, and I don’t think that would be possible with gods in it. Unless I am being completely deceived, in which case the universe is seriously ugly and I don’t even know it!

I have not seen others argue against god on aesthetic grounds so I claim the credit for it for the time being!

Stuart

December 21, 2009 at 7:53 am#165639

karmarie

Participant

Bod

Why do you waste your time trying to change an athiest? An athiest USUALLY will not change, untill some actual proof is given, ….if an apple is infront of them, they know theres really an apple there,

Take Santa claus, we tell our kids “santas coming!” they believe its santa delivering the presents, this big mystical guy all fat and happy with presents for the good and not for the bad…then they find out it was just a hoax- theres no santa….and here they were REALLY believing? Maybe only a child thing but still a barrier in the mind for the future

And thats JUST ONE of the probs, theres a whole lot, hypocrites, preachers, false teachings, broken marriages, emotional damage, religeon can be ugly

The only way Stu can be convinced is if God personally works with him! So prayer is more helpfull IMO..PRAY!

And watch yourself, your pretty “weak” atm, youve been through alot, and its sad and it shouldnt of happened, i wont tell you how im feeling

December 21, 2009 at 10:25 am#165643

TimothyVI

Participant

Quote (karmarie @ Dec. 21 2009,18:53)

Bod

And thats JUST ONE of the probs, theres a whole lot, hypocrites, preachers, false teachings, broken marriages, emotional damage, religeon can be ugly

The only way Stu can be convinced is if God personally works with him! So prayer is more helpfull IMO..PRAY!

And watch yourself, your pretty “weak” atm, youve been through alot, and its sad and it shouldnt of happened, i wont tell you how im feeling

I haven't noticed Bod trying to “change an atheist”.
Bod is just doing an excellent job of defining his own personal belief.

If the only way that Stu can be convinced is if God personally works with him, then why do you suppose that God doesn't care enough about Stu to convince him, but instead just lets him live a godless life?

Tim

December 21, 2009 at 6:25 pm#165658

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 21 2009,16:16)

Quote

There is nothing inherently wrong with anyone and there is no original sin that affects anyone. Any weakness at birth is simply a process of building strength.

Hear hear.

Quote

I have not seen others argue against god on aesthetic grounds so I claim the credit for it for the time being!

Stuart

How could the concept of Creatorship be Ugly?

Have you ever composed a song, built something with your hands or done any act of “Creation”?

You say you think the universe is beautiful and I agree but let me ask you when an adolescent yells at their parent and say things like “I hate you” and “I wish I was never born” simply because the parent won't let the child do whatever they please (for their own benefit) would you agree with the child or the parent?

If you were the owner of a store and those you employed stole from you, kept the place unclean and hurt the other employees would you agree that those people should be FIRED

What if you discovered that you were simply being ungrateful

December 21, 2009 at 6:41 pm#165659

Participant

Quote (karmarie @ Dec. 21 2009,18:53)

Bod

And thats JUST ONE of the probs, theres a whole lot, hypocrites, preachers, false teachings, broken marriages, emotional damage, religeon can be ugly

The only way Stu can be convinced is if God personally works with him! So prayer is more helpfull IMO..PRAY!

And watch yourself, your pretty “weak” atm, youve been through alot, and its sad and it shouldnt of happened, i wont tell you how im feeling

Karmarie

I am not trying to change Stu, what I am trying to do is relate to Stu in a way that gives him the opportunity to reasonably express his views. I don't know if Stu is an atheist and even if he is I am not knowledgeable enough about him or anyone to consider that position to be static or permanent but one thing is for sure he is willing to engage so talking about God is not offensive to him.

as you said:

Quote

theres a whole lot, hypocrites, preachers, false teachings, broken marriages, emotional damage, religeon can be ugly

I agree with everything you wrote there except that religion can be ugly, True religion can never be ugly because True religion is an action that is fruitful. If God works with Stu it starts with all of us also working with Stu.

If people are willing to believe someone died for their sins should they in turn not be willing to at least “sacrifice” their time to the life of another.

You are a wonderful person and very thoughtful, Thanx!

December 21, 2009 at 6:52 pm#165660

Participant

Hi all!

It is very kind of you all to think of me like this.

I do not identify as an atheist that strongly really because, although I believe that it is pretty obvious that all gods ever conceived are human inventions, the word atheist essentially defines me in terms of others' delusions. Nevertheless it is an accurate adjective.

Now shouldn't you all be trying to decide whether your scriptures say I should be killed or not?

Stuart

December 21, 2009 at 7:15 pm#165661

Participant

BD I should be clearer about the ugliness of gods: it is specifically that a creation will necessitate being incomprehensible and therefore inquiry and discovery will ultimately hit a wall of magic that cannot be penetrated.

This is a personal reaction to creation myths: it is my aesthetic response that things that have intent, and achieve deception of their creation intentionally or not, are ugly. A universe that has come about by simple application of physical laws that just happen to apply to matter / energy / dark matter / dark energy and whatever other labels can be used to describe the universe and its contents is beautiful to me.

The process of expansion of space – transfer of gravitational energy from the expansion into matter – stellar evolution – supernova – attraction of supernova dust into sun's orbit – planetary accretion of matter – cooling – evolution of life on earth (and where else?) is a matter for astonishment. What would be the point of wedging gods into that story? Gods don't explain anything and there is no particular reason to think they exist anyway. All you would do is add obscurity. Why would you want to do that? The obvious answer throughout human history has been to gain political power. That's more that is ugly.

Of course if you ever did find there was some kind of intellect running everything and you could see through it to its mechanisms you would then classify it according to the natural world and I think you would probably stop calling it god at that point. Can you imagine what force-distance or speed-time graphs would look like in physics with such a comprehensible god? Quantum mechanics has already added some interesting variations but with a knowable god you would have to have smooth force curves that suddenly spiked off in bizarre directions. No beauty there. Just obscure, incomprehensible, curiosity-denying, ugly magic.

Stuart

December 21, 2009 at 7:36 pm#165667

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 21 2009,12:55)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 20 2009,19:32)

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 20 2009,17:32)

Quote

Why is the Bibles center Chapter, the smallest Chapter of the Largest Book?

Huh?

Stuart

Hi Stuart,

Have you ever heard of a fractal?

Chapter 117 illustrates fractal consistency concerning…
“GOD The Father”=117

Despite God's enormity he is concerned with the seemingly insignificant!

That's you Stuart, you are NOT insignificant, you were created in God's image.

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

What does “Muhammad Christ” equal?

Hi BD,

יהשוע YÄ-shü-ă was the Christ, what's your point?
Do you think somehow Muhammad will save you?

Ed J

December 21, 2009 at 11:59 pm#165692

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,06:15)

Stuart

This explanation of yours is lacking greatly, Who told you that you were not to discover all those things and that is why you have a curious brain, why wouldn't God allow you to explore and gain understanding on your own?

What level of mathematics do you currently understand? If it is a high level do you think those who applied themselves less than you could possibly understand it?

What some see as deception is their own lack of knowledge it's like saying “there are tiny people living in the television set” Now you said something really interesting when you said “things that have intent” because often you appear to be saying that “evolution” has an actual intent which would be impossible because blind processes do not have intent otherwise the mutations would not be “random”.

Also speaking of Quantum Mechanics, how do you feel about ” spooky action at a distance”

Quantum physics is one of the reasons I really started “KNOWING” that God is REAL.

What appears to be random and chaotic is often logic of the Highest order. God is Real

December 22, 2009 at 12:09 am#165696

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 22 2009,06:36)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 21 2009,12:55)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 20 2009,19:32)

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 20 2009,17:32)

Quote

Why is the Bibles center Chapter, the smallest Chapter of the Largest Book?

Huh?

Stuart

Hi Stuart,

Have you ever heard of a fractal?

Chapter 117 illustrates fractal consistency concerning…
“GOD The Father”=117

Despite God's enormity he is concerned with the seemingly insignificant!

That's you Stuart, you are NOT insignificant, you were created in God's image.

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

What does “Muhammad Christ” equal?

Hi BD,

יהשוע YÄ-shü-ă was the Christ, what's your point?
Do you think somehow Muhammad will save you?

Ed J

By the way the smallest chapter is only in the center of the protestant cannon of the bible.

Doesn't God Save? Isn't the savation that is received by anyone coming from God?

Yes, believeing in Jesus will give one salvation but but isn't that salvation coming from the one who sent Jesus?

If a person believes in what was given to Muhammad which includes believing in Jesus isn't that salvation coming through Muhammad by way of Jesus and further still by the grace of God?

December 22, 2009 at 12:37 am#165702

Participant

There is plenty of Abrahamic scripture that says I was not meant to know things, and will not be allowed to know. Ask people here what their scripture says about the 'knowledge of men'. I think you will find yourself in the minority if you believe that god is said to want people to have knowledge. The con artist formerly known as Saul of Tarsus is dead against it too.

I don't think it is relevant what I know compared to others. The kind of knowledge I would love to have I never will, but all who are honest and interested are on a journey, and at least there is that to cherish. It is the ugly principle that, if there is a creating god that we cannot understand, eventually or indeed already, we will be deceived. I cannot see how it could not be that way. As I said, the alternative is a neutral god, but I don't think you believe in that.

Have I said anywhere here that natural selection has intent?

If you want me to accept your 'spooky' then you will have to be content with my 'ugly'!

I think for everyone who has seen god in quantum mechanics there must be several who have used the same kind of knowledge to dismiss the idea of gods.

Stuart

December 22, 2009 at 12:39 am#165704

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 22 2009,11:09)

If a person believes in what was given to Muhammad which includes believing in Jesus isn't that salvation coming through Muhammad by way of Jesus and further still by the grace of God?

So don't the Jews have the right approach then? Cut out both middle men.

Stuart

December 22, 2009 at 12:50 am#165710

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 22 2009,11:09)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 22 2009,06:36)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 21 2009,12:55)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 20 2009,19:32)

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 20 2009,17:32)

Quote

Why is the Bibles center Chapter, the smallest Chapter of the Largest Book?

Huh?

Stuart

Hi Stuart,

Have you ever heard of a fractal?

Psalm 117 is the smallest Chapter of the Largest book,
this illustrates the great fractal consistency concerning…
“GOD The Father”=117

Despite God's enormity he is concerned with the seemingly insignificant!

That's you Stuart, you are NOT insignificant, you were created in God's image.

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

What does “Muhammad Christ” equal?

Hi BD,

יהשוע YÄ-shü-ă is the Christ, what's your point?
Do you think somehow Muhammad will save you?

Ed J

By the way the smallest chapter is only in the center of the protestant cannon of the bible.

Doesn't God Save? Isn't the savation that is received by anyone coming from God?

Yes, believeing in Jesus will give one salvation but but isn't that salvation coming from the one who sent Jesus?

If a person believes in what was given to Muhammad which includes believing in Jesus isn't that salvation coming through Muhammad by way of Jesus and further still by the grace of God?

Hi BD,

What if what was delivered to Muhammad didn't come from Gabriel,
as is the assertion, have you ever considered that?

2Cor.11:3-4 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty,
so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus,
whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received,
or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Gal.1:6-9 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
But though we, or an angel from heaven (Gabriel hmmm?), preach any other gospel
unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel
unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

2Cor.11:14-15 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness;
whose end shall be according to their works. What does the 'record' say concerning Muhammad's works?
Stuart can answer that one, I know his view is unbiased.

Rev.22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book,
If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy,
God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the “HolyCity”=117,
and from the things which are written in this book. “The Bible”=63, the word of “YHVH”=63.

“GOD The Father”=117 (117=יהוה האלהים) is “The Savior”=117!
Why do you reject the ransom sacrifice of his dear son “Jesus”=74 (The “Gospel”=74),
instead choosing to believe in the systems of religion and the traditions of men?

Ed J

December 22, 2009 at 1:10 am#165716

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 22 2009,11:53)

“Thou shalt not kill”

Hi BD,

Are you that unfamiliar with the Bible?

If it were translated today it would say…
Thou shall NOT commit premeditated criminal Homicide.
We murder animals for food; the bible is not talking about war killings either.

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

December 22, 2009 at 1:11 am#165717

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,11:39)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 22 2009,11:09)

If a person believes in what was given to Muhammad which includes believing in Jesus isn't that salvation coming through Muhammad by way of Jesus and further still by the grace of God?

So don't the Jews have the right approach then? Cut out both middle men.

Stuart

Yes the Jews are correct and Islam is no different they do not look to Muhammad for salvation, they look to God as the Jews do.

December 22, 2009 at 1:27 am#165719

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,11:37)

Have I said anywhere here that natural selection has intent?

If you want me to accept your 'spooky' then you will have to be content with my 'ugly'!

I think for everyone who has seen god in quantum mechanics there must be several who have used the same kind of knowledge to dismiss the idea of gods.

Stuart

It is an obligation for every Muslim to seek knowledge.
Seek knowledge even if it be in China.
Seek knowledge from cradle to grove.
Scholars are the heirs of the prophets.
The ink of the learned will be weighed with the blood of the martyrs on the Resurrection Day; and then, the ink of the learned would be preferred to the blood of the martyrs.
Anyone who pursues a course in search of knowledge, God will ease his way to paradise.
The most learned of men is the one who gathers knowledge from others on his own; the most worthy of men is the most knowing and the meanest is the most ignorant.
Acquire knowledge, it enables its possessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven.

Just so you know:

The Attitude of the Quran and the Prophet toward Knowledge
Islam is a religion based upon knowledge for it is ultimately knowledge of the Oneness of God combined with faith and total commitment to Him that saves man. The text of the Quran is replete with verses inviting man to use his intellect, to ponder, to think and to know, for the goal of human life is to discover the Truth which is none other than worshipping God in His Oneness. The Hadith literature is also full of references to the importance of knowledge. Such sayings of the Prophet as “Seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave”, (Hadith). and “Verily the men of knowledge are the inheritors of the prophets”, (Hadith)

have echoed throughout the history of Islam and incited Muslims to seek knowledge wherever it might be found. During most of its history, Islamic civilization has been witness to a veritable celebration of knowledge. That is why every traditional Islamic city possessed public and private libraries and some cities like Cordoba and Baghdad boasted of libraries with over 400,000 books. Such cities also had bookstores, some of which sold a large number of titles. That is also why the scholar has always been held in the highest esteem in Islamic society.

Integration of the Pre-Islamic Sciences
As Islam spread northward into Syria, Egypt, and the Persian empire, it came face to face with the sciences of antiquity whose heritage had been preserved in centers which now became a part of the Islamic world. Alexandria had been a major center of sciences and learning for centuries. The Greek learning cultivated in Alexandria was opposed by the Byzantines who had burned its library long before the advent of Islam. The tradition of Alexandrian learning did not die, however. It was transferred to Antioch and from there farther east to such cities as Edessa by eastern Christians who stood in sharp opposition to Byzantium and wished to have their own independent centers of learning. Moreover, the Persian king, Shapur I, had established Jundishapur in Persia as a second great center of learning matching Antioch. He even invited Indian physicians and mathematicians to teach in this major seat of learning, in addition to the Christian scholars who taught in Syriac as well as the Persians whose medium of instruction was Pahlavi. Once Muslims established the new Islamic order during the Umayyad period, they turned their attention to these centers of learning which had been preserved and sought to acquaint themselves with the knowledge taught and cultivated in them. They therefore set about with a concerted effort to translate the philosophical and scientific works which were available to them from not only Greek and Syriac (which was the language of eastern Christian scholars) but also from Pahlavi, the scholarly language of pre-Islamic Persia, and even from Sanskrit. Many of the accomplished translators were Christian Arabs such as Hunayn ibn Ishaq, who was also an outstanding physician, and others Persians such as Ibn Muqaffa', who played a major role in the creation of the new Arabic prose style conducive to the expression of philosophical and scientific writings. The great movement of translation lasted from the beginning of the 8th to the end of the 9th century, reaching its peak with the establishment of the House of Wisdom (Bayt alhikmah) by the caliph al-Ma'mun at the beginning of the 9th century. The result of this extensive effort of the Islamic community to confront the challenge of the presence of the various philosophies and sciences of antiquity and to understand and digest them in its own terms and according to its own world view was the translation of a vast corpus of writings into Arabic. Most of the important philosophical and scientific works of Aristotle and his school, much of Plato and the Pythagorean school, and the major works of Greek astronomy, mathematics and medicine such as the Almagest of Ptolemy, the Elements of Euclid, and the works of Hippocrates and Galen, were all rendered into Arabic. Furthermore, important works of astronomy, mathematics and medicine were translated from Pahlavi and Sanskrit. As a result, Arabic became the most important scientific language of the world for many centuries and the depository of much of the wisdom and the sciences of antiquity. The Muslims did not translate the scientific and philosophical works of other civilizations out of fear of political or economic domination but because the structure of Islam itself is based upon the primacy of knowledge. Nor did they consider these forms of knowing as “un-lslamic” as long as they confirmed the doctrine of God's Oneness which Islam considers to have been at the heart of every authentic revelation from God. Once these sciences and philosophies confirmed the principle of Oneness, the Muslims considered them as their own. They made them part of their world view and began to cultivate the Islamic sciences based on what they had translated, analyzed, criticized, and assimilated, rejecting what was not in conformity with the Islamic perspective.

Mathematical Sciences and Physics
The Muslim mind has always been attracted to the mathematical sciences in accordance with the “abstract” character of the doctrine of Oneness which lies at the heart of Islam. The mathematical sciences have traditionally included astronomy, mathematics itself and much of what is called physics today.

Astronomy
In astronomy the Muslims integrated the astronomical traditions of the Indians, Persians, the ancient Near East and especially the Greeks into a synthesis which began to chart a new chapter in the history of astronomy from the 8th century onward. The Almagest of Ptolemy, whose very name in English reveals the Arabic origin of its Latin tra
nslation, was thoroughly studied and its planetary theory criticized by several astronomers of both the eastern and western lands of Islam leading to the major critique of the theory by Nasir al-Din al-Tusi and his students, especially Qutb alDin al-Shirazi, in the 13th century. The Muslims also observed the heavens carefully and discovered many new stars. The book on stars of 'Abd al-Rahman al-Sufi was in fact translated into Spanish by Alfonso X el Sabio and had a deep influence upon stellar toponymy in European languages. Many star names in English such as Aldabaran still recall their Arabic origin. The Muslims carried out many fresh observations which were contained in astronomical tables called zij. One of the acutest of these observers was al-Battani whose work was followed by numerous others. The zij of al-Ma'mun observed in Baghdad, the Hakimite zij of Cairo, the Toledan Tables of alZarqali and his associates, the ll-Khanid zij of Nasir al-Din al-Tusi observed in Maraghah, and the zij of Ulugh-Beg from Samarqand are among the most famous Islamic astronomical tables. They wielded a great deal of influence upon Western astronomy up to the time of Tycho Brahe. The Muslims were in fact the first to create an astronomical observatory as a scientific institution, this being the observatory of Maraghah in Persia established by al-Tusi. This was indirectly the model for the later European observatories. Many astronomical instruments were developed by Muslims to carry out observation, the most famous being the astrolabe. There existed even mechanical astrolabes perfected by Ibn Samh which must be considered as the ancestor of the mechanical clock. Astronomical observations also had practical applications including not only finding the direction of Makkah for prayers, but also devising almanacs (the word itself being of Arabic origin). The Muslims also applied their astronomical knowledge to questions of time-keeping and the calendar. The most exact solar calendar existing to this day is the Jalali calendar devised under the direction of 'Umar Khayyam in the 12th century and still in use in Persia and Afghanistan.

Mathematics, Algebra
As for mathematics proper, like astronomy, it received its direct impetus from the Quran not only because of the mathematical structure related to the text of the Sacred Book, but also because the laws of inheritance delineated in the Quran require rather complicated mathematical solutions. Here again Muslims began by integrating Greek and Indian mathematics. The first great Muslim mathematician, al-Khwarazmi, who lived in the 9th century, wrote a treatise on arithmetic whose Latin translation brought what is known as Arabic numerals to the West. To this day guarismo, derived from his name, means figure or digit in Spanish while algorithm is still used in English. Al-Khwarazmi is also the author of the first book on algebra. This science was developed by Muslims on the basis of earlier Greek and Indian works of a rudimentary nature. The very name algebra comes from the first part of the name of the book of al-Khwarazmi, entitled Kirah al-jahr wa'l-muqabalah. Abu Kamil al-Shuja' discussed algebraic equations with five unknowns. The science was further developed by such figures as al-Karaji until it reached its peak with Khayyam who classified by kind and class algebraic equations up to the third degree.

Geometry
The Muslims also excelled in geometry as reflected in their art. The brothers Banu Musa who lived in the 9th century may be said to be the first outstanding Muslim geometers while their contemporary Thabit ibn Qurrah used the method of exhaustion, giving a glimpse of what was to become integral calculus. Many Muslim mathematicians such as Khayyam and al-Tusi also dealt with the fifth postulate of Euclid and the problems which follow if one tries to prove this postulate within the confines of Eucledian geometry.

Trigonometry
Another branch of mathematics developed by Muslims is trigonometry which was established as a distinct branch of mathematics by al-Biruni. The Muslim mathematicians, especially al-Battani, Abu'l-Wafa', Ibn Yunus and Ibn al-Haytham, also developed spherical astronomy and applied it to the solution of astronomical problems.

Number Theory
The love for the study of magic squares and amicable numbers led Muslims to develop the theory of numbers. Al-Khujandi discovered a particular case of Fermat's theorem that “the sum of two cubes cannot be another cube”, while alKaraji analyzed arithmetic and geometric progressions such as: 1^3+2^3+3^3+…+n^3=( 1+2+3+…+n)^2. Al-Biruni also dealt with progressions while Ghiyath al-Din Jamshid al-Kashani brought the study of number theory among Muslims to its peak.

Physics, Balance, Projectile Motion, Optics
In the field of physics the Muslims made contributions in especially three domains. The first was the measurement of specific weights of objects and the study of the balance following upon the work of Archimedes. In this domain the writings of al-Biruni and al-Khazini stand out. Secondly they criticized the Aristotelian theory of projectile motion and tried to quantify this type of motion. The critique of Ibn Sina, Abu'l-Barakat al-Baghdadi, Ibn Bajjah and others led to the development of the idea of impetus and momentum and played an important role in the criticism of Aristotelian physics in the West up to the early writings of Galileo. Thirdly there is the field of optics in which the Islamic sciences produced in Ibn al-Haytham (the Latin Alhazen) who lived in the 11th century, the greatest student of optics between Ptolemy and Witelo. Ibn al-Haytham's main work on optics, the Kitah al-manazir, was also well known in the West as Thesaurus opticus. Ibn al-Haytham solved many optical problems, one of which is named after him, studied the property of lenses, discovered the camera obscura, explained correctly the process of vision, studied the structure of the eye, and explained for the first time why the sun and the moon appear larger on the horizon. His interest in optics was carried out two centuries later by Qutb al-Din al-Shirazi and Kamal al-Din al-Farisi. It was Qutb al-Din who gave the first correct explanation of the formation of the rainbow.

Experimental Method
It is important to recall that in physics as in many other fields of science the Muslims observed, measured and carried out experiments. They must be credited with having developed what came to be known later as the experimental method.

Medical Sciences
The hadiths of the Prophet contain many instructions concerning health including dietary habits; these sayings became the foundation of what came to be known later as “Prophetic medicine” (al-tibb al-nabawi). Because of the great attention paid in Islam to the need to take care of the body and to hygiene, early in Islamic history Muslims began to cultivate the field of medicine turning once again to all the knowledge that was available to them from Greek, Persian and Indian sources. At first the great physicians among Muslims were mostly Christian but by the 9th century Islamic medicine, properly speaking, was born with the appearance of the major compendium, @Rhazes Anatomy Smallpox Antiseptic Psychosomatic Medicine The Paradise of Wisdom (Firdaws al-hikmah ) by 'Ali ibn Rabban al-Tabari, who synthesized the Hippocratic and Galenic traditions of medicine with those of India and Persia. His student, Muhammad ibn Zakariyya' al-Razi (the Latin Rhazes), was one of the greatest of physicians who emphasized clinical medicine and observation. He was a master of prognosis and psychosomatic medicine and also of anatomy. He was the first to identify and treat smallpox, to use alcohol as an antiseptic and make medical use of mercury as a purgative. His Kitab al-hawi (Continens) is the longest work ever written in Islamic medicine and he was recognized as a medical authority in the West up to the 18th century.

The Canon of Medicine and Meningitis
The greatest of all Muslim physicians, however, was Ibn Sina wh
o was called “the prince of physicians” in the West. He synthesized Islamic medicine in his major masterpiece, al-Qanun fi'l tibb (The Canon of Medicine), which is the most famous of all medical books in history. It was the final authority in medical matters in Europe for nearly six centuries and is still taught wherever Islamic medicine has survived to this day in such lands as Pakistan and India. Ibn Sina discovered many drugs and identified and treated several ailments such as meningitis but his greatest contribution was in the philosophy of medicine. He created a system of medicine within which medical practice could be carried out and in which physical and psychological factors, drugs and diet are combined.

Pulmonary Circulation
After Ibn Sina, Islamic medicine divided into several branches. In the Arab world Egypt remained a major center for the study of medicine, especially ophthalmology which reached its peak at the court of al-Hakim. Cairo possessed excellent hospitals which also drew physicians from other lands including Ibn Butlan, author of the famous Calendar of Health, and Ibn Nafis who discovered the lesser or pulmonary circulation of the blood long before Michael Servetus, who is usually credited with the discovery.

Gynecology
As for the western lands of Islam including Spain, this area was likewise witness to the appearance of outstanding physicians such as Sa'd al-Katib of Cordoba who composed a treatise on gynecology, and the greatest Muslim figure in surgery, the 12th century Abu'l-Qasim al-Zahrawi (the Latin Albucasis) whose medical masterpiece Kitab al-tasrif was well known in the West as Concessio. One must also mention the Ibn Zuhr family which produced several outstanding physicians and Abu Marwan 'Abd al-Malik who was the Maghrib's most outstanding clinical physician. The well known Spanish philosophers, Ibn Tufayl and Ibn Rushd, were also outstanding physicians. Islamic medicine continued in Persia and the other eastern lands of the Islamic world under the influence of Ibn Sina with the appearance of major Persian medical compendia such as the Treasury of Sharaf al-Din al-Jurjani and the commentaries upon the Canon by Fakhr al-Din al-Razi and Qutb al-Din al-Shirazi. Even after the Mongol invasion, medical studies continued as can be seen in the work of Rashid al-Din Fadlallah, and for the first time there appeared translations of Chinese medicine and interest in acupuncture among Muslims. The Islamic medical tradition was revived in the Safavid period when several diseases such as whooping cough were diagnosed and treated for the first time and much attention was paid to pharmacology. Many Persian doctors such as 'Ayn al-Mulk of Shiraz also travelled to India at this time to usher in the golden age of Islamic medicine in the subcontinent and to plant the seed of the Islamic medical tradition which continues to flourish to this day in the soil of that land.

Major Hospitals
The Ottoman world was also an arena of great medical activity derived from the heritage of Ibn Sina. The Ottoman Turks were especially known for the creation of major hospitals and medical centers. These included not only units for the care of the physically ill, but also wards for patients with psychological ailments. The Ottomans were also the first to receive the influence of modem European medicine in both medicine and pharmacology. In mentioning Islamic hospitals it is necessary to mention that all major Islamic cities had hospitals; some like those of Baghdad were teaching hospitals while some like the Nasiri hospital of Cairo had thousands of beds for patients with almost any type of illness. Hygiene in these hospitals was greatly emphasized and al-Razi had even written a treatise on hygiene in hospitals. Some hospitals also specialized in particular diseases including psychological ones. Cairo even had a hospital which specialilzed in patients having insomnia.

Pharmacology
Islamic medical authorities were also always concerned with the significance of pharmacology and many important works such as the Canon have whole books devoted to the subject. The Muslims became heir not only to the pharmacological knowledge of the Greeks as contained in the works of Dioscorides, but also the vast herbal pharmacopias of the Persians and Indians. They also studied the medical effects of many drugs, especially herbs, themselves. The greatest contributions in this field came from Maghribi scientists such as Ibn Juljul, Ibn al-Salt and the most original of Muslim pharmacologists, the 12th century scientist, al-Ghafiqi, whose Book of Simple Drugs provides the best descriptions of the medical properties of plants known to Muslims. Islamic medicine combined the use of drugs for medical purposes with dietary considerations and a whole lifestyle derived from the teachings of Islam to create a synthesis which has not died out to this day despite the introduction of modern medicine into most of the Islamic world.

Natural History and Geography
The vast expanse of the Islamic world enabled the Muslims to develop natural history based not only on the Mediterranean world, as was the case of the Greek natural historians, but also on most of the Eurasian and even African land masses. Knowledge of minerals, plants and animals was assembled from areas as far away as the Malay world and synthesized for the first time by Ibn Sina in his Kitab al-Shifa' (The Book of Healing). Such major natural historians as al-Mas'udi intertwined natural and human history. Al-Biruni likewise in his study of India turned to the natural history and even geology of the region, describing correctly the sedimentary nature of the Ganges basin. He also wrote the most outstanding Muslim work on mineralogy.

Botany, Zoology
As for botany, the most important treatises were composed in the 12th century in Spain with the appearance of the work of al-Ghafiqi. This is also the period when the best known Arabic work on agriculture, the Kitab al-falahah, was written. The Muslims also showed much interest in zoology especially in horses as witnessed by the classical text of al-Jawaliqi, and in falcons and other hunting birds. The works of al-Jahiz and al-Damiri are especially famous in the field of zoology and deal with the literary, moral and even theological dimensions of the study of animals as well as the purely zoological aspects of the subject. This is also true of a whole class of writings on the “wonders of creation” of which the book of Abu Yahya al-Qazwini, the 'Aja'ih al-makhluqat (The Wonders of Creation) is perhaps the most famous.

Geography
Likewise in geography, Muslims were able to extend their horizons far beyond the world of Ptolemy. As a result of travel over land and by sea and the facile exchange of ideas made possible by the unified structure of the Islamic world and the hajj which enables pilgrims from all over the Islamic world to gather and exchange ideas in addition to visiting the House of God, a vast amount of knowledge of areas from the Pacific to the Atlantic was assembled. The Muslim geographers starting with al-Khwarazmi, who laid the foundation of this science among Muslims in the 9th century, began to study the geography of practically the whole globe minus the Americas, dividing the earth into the traditional seven climes each of which they studied carefully from both a geographical and climactic point of view. They also began to draw maps some of which reveal with remarkable accuracy many features such as the origin of the Nile, not discovered in the West until much later. The foremost among Muslim geographers was Abu 'Abdallah al-Idrisi, who worked at the court of Roger II in Sicily and who dedicated his famous book, Kitab al-rujari (The Book of Roger) to him. His maps are among the great achievements of Islamic science. It was in fact with the help of Muslim geographers and navigators that Magellan crossed the Cape of Good Hope into the Indian Ocean. Even Columbus made use of their knowledge in his discovery of America.

Chemistry
The v
ery name alchemy as well as its derivative chemistry come from the Arabic al-kimiya'. The Muslims mastered Alexandrian and even certain elements of Chinese alchemy and very early in their history, produced their greatest alchemist, Jabir ibn Hayyan (the Latin Geber) who lived in the 8th century. Putting the cosmological and symbolic aspects of alchemy aside, one can assert that this art led to much experimentation with various materials and in the hands of Muhammad ibn Zakariyya' al-Razi was converted into the science of chemistry. To this day certain chemical instruments such as the alembic (al-'anbiq) still bear their original Arabic names and the mercury-sulphur theory of Islamic alchemy remains as the foundation of the acid-base theory of chemistry. Al-Razi's division of materials into animal, vegetable and mineral is still prevalent and a vast body of knowledge of materials accumulated by Islamic alchemists and chemists has survived over the centuries in both East and West. For example the use of dyes in objects of Islamic art ranging from carpets to miniatures or the making of glass have much to do with this branch of learning which the West learned completely from Islamic sources since alchemy was not studied and practiced in the West before the translation of Arabic texts into Latin in the 11th century .

Technology
Islam inherited the millenial experience in various forms of technology from the peoples who entered the fold of Islam and the nations which became part of Dar al-Islam. A wide range of technological knowledge, from the building of water wheels by the Romans to the underground water system by the Persians, became part and parcel of the technology of the newly founded order. Muslims also imported certain kinds of technology from the Far East such as paper which they brought from China and whose technology they later transmitted to the West. They also developed many forms of technology on the basis of earlier existing knowledge such as the metallurgical art of making the famous Damascene swords, an art which goes back to the making of steel several thousand years before on the Iranian plateau. Likewise Muslims developed new architectural techniques of vaulting, methods of ventilation, preparations of dyes, techniques of weaving, technologies related to irrigation and numerous other forms of technology, some of which survive to this day.

Man and Nature
In general Islamic civilization emphasized the harmony between man and nature as seen in the traditional design of Islamic cities. Maximum use was made of natural elements and forces, and men built in harmony with, not in opposition to nature. Some of the Muslim technological feats such as dams which have survived for over a millenium, domes which can withstand earthquakes, and steel which reveals incredible metallurgical know-how, attest to the exceptional attainment of Muslims in many fields of technology. In fact it was a vastly superior technology that first impressed the Crusaders in their unsuccessful attempt to capture the Holy Land and much of this technology was brought back by the Crusaders to the rest of Europe.

Architecture
One of the major achievements of Islamic civilization is architecture which combines technology Treatises on natural and art. The great masterpieces of Islamic architecture from the Cordoba Mosque and the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem to the Taj Mahal in India, scientists were often display this perfect wedding between the artistic illustrated with detailed principles of Islam and remarkable technological know-how. Much of the outstanding medieval facilitate teaching of the architecture of the West is in fact indebted to the techniques of Islamic architecture. When one views the Notre Dame in Paris or some other Gothic cathedral, one is reminded of the building techniques which travelled from Muslim Cordoba northward. Gothic arches as well as interior courtyards of so many medieval and Renaissance European structures remind the viewer of the Islamic architectural examples from which they originally drew. In fact the great medieval European architectural tradition is one of the elements of Western civilization most directly linked with the Islamic world, while the presence of Islamic architecture can also be directly experienced in the Moorish style found not only in Spain and Latin America, but in the southwestern United States as well.

Influence of Islamic Science and Learning Upon the West
The oldest university in the world which is still functioning is the eleven hundred-year-old Islamic university of Fez, Morocco, known as the Qarawiyyin. This old tradition of Islamic learning influenced the West greatly through Spain. In this land where Muslims, Christians and Jews lived for the most part peacefully for many centuries, translations began to be made in the 11th century mostly in Toledo of Islamic works into Latin often through the intermediary of Jewish scholars most of whom knew Arabic and often wrote in Arabic. As a result of these translations, Islamic thought and through it much of Greek thought became known to the West and Western schools of learning began to flourish. Even the Islamic educational system was emulated in Europe and to this day the term chair in a university reflects the Arabic kursi (literally seat) upon which a teacher would sit to teach his students in the madrasah (school of higher learning). As European civillization grew and reached the high Middle Ages, there was hardly a field of learning or form of art, whether it was literature or architecture, where there was not some influence of Islam present. Islamic learning became in this way part and parcel of Western civilization even if with the advent of the Renaissance, the West not only turned against its own medieval past but also sought to forget the long relation it had had with the Islamic world, one which was based on intellectual respect despite religious opposition.

December 22, 2009 at 1:49 am#165721

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 22 2009,12:27)

have echoed throughout the history of Islam and incited Muslims to seek knowledge wherever it might be found.

Hi BD,

If this were true then why are they not allowed to get knowledge from Christians or Jews?

Ed J

December 22, 2009 at 2:13 am#165726

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 22 2009,12:10)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 22 2009,11:53)

“Thou shalt not kill”

Hi BD,

Are you that unfamiliar with the Bible?

If it were translated today it would say…
Thou shall NOT commit premeditated criminal Homicide.
We murder animals for food; the bible is not talking about war killings either.

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

No, you definitely need to see the truth of the matter here.

God told the Children of Israel according to their covenant with Him what was permitted or not permitted within the community of the Israelites.

God directly ordered the Israelites on many occasions to fight and kill others and in-fact God ordered the extinction of the Amalekites:

Exodus 17
14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
1 Samuel 15:2-4

This was premeditated and the fact is “Thou shalt not kill” did not apply to those outside of the civil community, remember God told them to “Go” and do it, this was not defensive it was an offensive to wipe them out.

The Quran makes it clear what was told to the Israelites:

1) O ye who believe! Eat not up your property among yourselves in vanities: But let there be amongst you Traffic and trade by mutual good-will: Nor kill (or destroy) yourselves: for verily Allah hath been to you Most Merciful!
( An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #29)

(3) If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him.
( An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #93)

Jesus said do not be angry with your brother so when he turned over the tables and and was angry waving a corded whip at the monety changers in the temple, do you think he was considering them as the ones not to be angry at?

How is it you will not accept what is written just because it makes you uncomfortable. Stop running from what you don't like in the bible because it's perhaps what you don't like is that which will teach you the most

(1) Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.
( Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #216)

(2) O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.
( An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #19)

You really don't understand what is in the bible but I do:

Cursed be he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, and cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood.

Also regarding Paul are you forgetting that Paul saw a light and said he saw Jesus in spirit form although Jesus said if anyone says that they saw him they would be a false prophet

And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
Mark 13:20-22

But you did believe Paul, didn't you?

Jeremiah 48:9-11

December 22, 2009 at 2:16 am#165727