Karmarie

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 13 2009,03:04)

t8 Quote Imagine how mad a sinner could become if he couldn't die. Eternal life would be the worse thing you could give them. Exactly the same applies to the ‘saved’!  The moment you will no longer die is the moment your ‘life’ (whatever it is) loses all motive and meaning. Quote Anyway, I personally am against institutions because in order to gain power, they often use fear, and then somehow convince people that they have the cure. I don’t think Saul of Tarsus would like to hear you say that. Quote I am also against some science groups because they too seem to be following in the footsteps of some of these abusive religious institutions. In fact it is just a replacement of some of the abuses in the past. They cannot accept anything outside of their own understanding and ridicule anyone that disagrees with them. Many institutions and groups (such as evolutionists) think they have the truth and fight and compete for converts. You are simply caught up in this war Stu. You are a pawn in a battle that you seem ignorant of. A battle for the souls of men. The really sad thing is that I think you might even genuinely believe this.  You seem to have no idea about the nature of the interactions between scientists.  Your celestial conspiracy theory is wet, t8. Quote all humans have access to communication with God. Some choose not to believe because they are not interested in God, so unbelief is convenient for them. Others cannot believe because they have had their eyes blinded and hearts hardened (John 12:40) and  been told lies (2 Thess 2:11-12) by the same god who then will just have to destroy them by fire in an act of vengeful punishment for not accepting the thing they were prevented from seeing and were told lies about. What a just, forgiving god. Stuart

Proverbs 26:20 Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth.

[Stu]

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 14 2009,00:36)

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 13 2009,03:07) You know the really sad thing about all this is that christian mythology needs to present the simple natural process of death as some kind of punishment for those who do not buy into the myth. What a brutal load of nonsense it is. Stuart 2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

You demonstrate my point well.

Thanks.

Stuart

[Stu]

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 14 2009,00:44)

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 13 2009,03:04) t8 Quote Imagine how mad a sinner could become if he couldn't die. Eternal life would be the worse thing you could give them. Exactly the same applies to the ‘saved’!  The moment you will no longer die is the moment your ‘life’ (whatever it is) loses all motive and meaning. Quote Anyway, I personally am against institutions because in order to gain power, they often use fear, and then somehow convince people that they have the cure. I don’t think Saul of Tarsus would like to hear you say that. Quote I am also against some science groups because they too seem to be following in the footsteps of some of these abusive religious institutions. In fact it is just a replacement of some of the abuses in the past. They cannot accept anything outside of their own understanding and ridicule anyone that disagrees with them. Many institutions and groups (such as evolutionists) think they have the truth and fight and compete for converts. You are simply caught up in this war Stu. You are a pawn in a battle that you seem ignorant of. A battle for the souls of men. The really sad thing is that I think you might even genuinely believe this.  You seem to have no idea about the nature of the interactions between scientists.  Your celestial conspiracy theory is wet, t8. Quote all humans have access to communication with God. Some choose not to believe because they are not interested in God, so unbelief is convenient for them. Others cannot believe because they have had their eyes blinded and hearts hardened (John 12:40) and  been told lies (2 Thess 2:11-12) by the same god who then will just have to destroy them by fire in an act of vengeful punishment for not accepting the thing they were prevented from seeing and were told lies about. What a just, forgiving god. Stuart Proverbs 26:20 Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth.

And again, this time on the points of justice, loving and forgiving, none of which could be said to be properties of this god.

Stuart

[Constitutionalist]

Psalm 11:6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

Psalm 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

Psalm 18:12 At the brightness that was before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and coals of fire.

Psalm 18:13 The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.

Psalm 21:9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.

Psalm 29:7 The voice of the LORD divideth the flames of fire.

Psalm 50:3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

Psalm 80:16 It is burned with fire, it is cut down: they perish at the rebuke of thy countenance.

Psalm 97:3 A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about.

Psalm 106:18 And a fire was kindled in their company; the flame burned up the wicked.

Psalm 140:10 Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again.

Isaiah 47:14 Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.

Isaiah 64:2 As when the melting fire burneth, the fire causeth the waters to boil, to make thy name known to thine adversaries, that the nations may tremble at thy presence!

Isaiah 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

[Stu]

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 13 2009,23:53)

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 13 2009,02:46) 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction. This loving god will take vengeance by fire which will result in everlasting destruction.  t8 thinks the prince of peace will use fire to put people out of the misery of not accepting the misery of christianity, and that will not be a process that lasts forever.  I think the point is an ambiguous one, and that t8 may well just be using another of the contradictions in scripture to paint a different picture.  I am happy to concede the point. So, the revised version becomes 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with destruction. Which is what will happen to Richard Rodgers and Lance Armstrong, despite the good they have done, but have actually not done because of Ps14:1. Are we happy with that? Stuart 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction. States: Punished, not punishing. States: Destruction, that is the punishment. States: Everlasting, that destruction is everlasting. T8 is correct. “Are we happy with that?” does not change the outcome. And yes the “Prince of Peace” will destroy wickedness, that is why he is the 'Prince of Peace,” so the righteous one won't have deal with wickedness forever.

It is the god that is responsible for the state those 'wicked' find themselves in, because 'he' blinded them and told them lies.

The wicked are not half as wicked as the god who allegedly calls them such.

Stuart

[Stu]

Forget to say, you can used 'punished' in the past imperfect: “they are still being punished”.

Stuart

[Stu]

I've lost track a bit of the point, and I appreciate that t8 is right about it being off-topic now!

I think the problem started with the discussion concerning the fact that this brutal religion condemns the actions of atheists who have by any reasonable standards made a noble and significant contribution to humanity, or at least have given of themselves for their fellows or inspired them to greater heights of achievement, and will punish them with fire as an act of vengeance simply because they very reasonably conclude that an entirely silent god, for which there is no evidence, does not actually exist.

The OT verses are really just highlighting the brutality. This is a religion that is an abomination: in the end none of it has really done any good.

Stuart

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 13 2009,05:47)

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 13 2009,23:53) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 13 2009,02:46) 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction. This loving god will take vengeance by fire which will result in everlasting destruction.  t8 thinks the prince of peace will use fire to put people out of the misery of not accepting the misery of christianity, and that will not be a process that lasts forever.  I think the point is an ambiguous one, and that t8 may well just be using another of the contradictions in scripture to paint a different picture.  I am happy to concede the point. So, the revised version becomes 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with destruction. Which is what will happen to Richard Rodgers and Lance Armstrong, despite the good they have done, but have actually not done because of Ps14:1. Are we happy with that? Stuart 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction. States: Punished, not punishing. States: Destruction, that is the punishment. States: Everlasting, that destruction is everlasting. T8 is correct. “Are we happy with that?” does not change the outcome. And yes the “Prince of Peace” will destroy wickedness, that is why he is the 'Prince of Peace,” so the righteous one won't have deal with wickedness forever. It is the god that is responsible for the state those 'wicked' find themselves in, because 'he' blinded them and told them lies. The wicked are not half as wicked as the god who allegedly calls them such. Stuart

You blame 'Elohim?

Why not blame the wicked for there fate?

Blinding the wicked and hardening their hearts is the fault of the wicked.

This expresses a positive divine act, by which those who wilfully close their eyes and harden their hearts against the truth are judicially shut up in their unbelief and impenitence, this is in no way inconsistent with the liberty of the human will, which of course it is not.

Quote

NOTE: When the Lord hardens the heart, the literal meaning is “to make firm stout, or strong” (Exodus 7:13-14:8).

Can those blinded receive redemption?

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Yeshua HaMoshiach, who is the image of 'Elohim, should shine unto them.

Stu, who is the god of this world?

Well Stu, it appears it is not G-d's fault, they get all the chances in the world to repent, how about you Stu, how many chances do you pass up daily?

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 13 2009,05:49)

Forget to say, you can used 'punished' in the past imperfect:  “they are still being punished”. Stuart

Yes you could, but not in this context, for judgment has not yet come.

[Stu]

Con

Quote

You blame 'Elohim? Why not blame the wicked for there fate? Blinding the wicked and hardening their hearts is the fault of the wicked This expresses a positive divine act, by which those who wilfully close their eyes and harden their hearts against the truth are judicially shut up in their unbelief and impenitence, this is in no way inconsistent with the liberty of the human will, which of course it is not.

That is not what scripture says. It is god that does the blinding and lying to them. It is like blaming criminals for being locked up by the police. Whether they deserve it or not, it is not the criminals who did the incarceration, is it? When the duty officer falls asleep and his dropped cigarette burns the police cells to the ground causing the death of the prisoners held there, your logic would blame the prisoners for their own demise. That is absurd.

Of course I don’t ACTUALLY blame supernatural beings that do not exist, for anything. That would be ridiculous.

Quote

Can those blinded receive redemption?

Would they want it? I don’t.

Quote

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Yeshua HaMoshiach, who is the image of 'Elohim, should shine unto them.

See? What an unjust Imaginary Friend you have.

Quote

Stu, who is the god of this world?

Ken Ham?

Quote

Well Stu, it appears it is not G-d's fault, they get all the chances in the world to repent, how about you Stu, how many chances do you pass up daily?

As many as present themselves to me. How about you?

Stuart

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 13 2009,06:19)

Con Quote You blame 'Elohim?  Why not blame the wicked for there fate? Blinding the wicked and hardening their hearts is the fault of the wicked  This expresses a positive divine act, by which those who wilfully close their eyes and harden their hearts against the truth are judicially shut up in their unbelief and impenitence,  this is in no way inconsistent with the liberty of the human will, which of course it is not. That is not what scripture says.  It is god that does the blinding and lying to them.  It is like blaming criminals for being locked up by the police.  Whether they deserve it or not, it is not the criminals who did the incarceration, is it?  When the duty officer falls asleep and his dropped cigarette burns the police cells to the ground causing the death of the prisoners held there, your logic would blame the prisoners for their own demise.  That is absurd. Of course I don’t ACTUALLY blame supernatural beings that do not exist, for anything.  That would be ridiculous. Quote Can those blinded receive redemption? Would they want it?  I don’t. Quote 2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Yeshua HaMoshiach, who is the image of 'Elohim, should shine unto them. See?  What an unjust Imaginary Friend you have. Quote Stu, who is the god of this world? Ken Ham? Quote Well Stu, it appears it is not G-d's fault, they get all the chances in the world to repent, how about you Stu, how many chances do you pass up daily? As many as present themselves to me.  How about you? Stuart

I am at rest knowing I have salvation.

[Stu]

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 14 2009,01:28)

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 13 2009,06:19) Con Quote You blame 'Elohim?  Why not blame the wicked for there fate? Blinding the wicked and hardening their hearts is the fault of the wicked  This expresses a positive divine act, by which those who wilfully close their eyes and harden their hearts against the truth are judicially shut up in their unbelief and impenitence,  this is in no way inconsistent with the liberty of the human will, which of course it is not. That is not what scripture says.  It is god that does the blinding and lying to them.  It is like blaming criminals for being locked up by the police.  Whether they deserve it or not, it is not the criminals who did the incarceration, is it?  When the duty officer falls asleep and his dropped cigarette burns the police cells to the ground causing the death of the prisoners held there, your logic would blame the prisoners for their own demise.  That is absurd. Of course I don’t ACTUALLY blame supernatural beings that do not exist, for anything.  That would be ridiculous. Quote Can those blinded receive redemption? Would they want it?  I don’t. Quote 2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Yeshua HaMoshiach, who is the image of 'Elohim, should shine unto them. See?  What an unjust Imaginary Friend you have. Quote Stu, who is the god of this world? Ken Ham? Quote Well Stu, it appears it is not G-d's fault, they get all the chances in the world to repent, how about you Stu, how many chances do you pass up daily? As many as present themselves to me.  How about you? Stuart I am at rest knowing I have salvation.

Aren't you special then.

Stuart

[Ed J]

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 14 2009,00:55)

I've lost track a bit of the point, and I appreciate that t8 is right about it being off-topic now! I think the problem started with the discussion concerning the fact that this brutal religion condemns the actions of atheists who have by any reasonable standards made a noble and significant contribution to humanity, or at least have given of themselves for their fellows or inspired them to greater heights of achievement, and will punish them with fire as an act of vengeance simply because they very reasonably conclude that an entirely silent god, for which there is no evidence, does not actually exist. The OT verses are really just highlighting the brutality.  This is a religion that is an abomination: in the end none of it has really done any good. Stuart

Hi Stuart,

God really does exist and I have documented proof.
Prob.18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.

I suggest you examine the documented evidences on the thread…

English gematria: interfaces with akjv bible
Offers proof of god's existence

God bless,
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Stu]

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 14 2009,11:36)

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 14 2009,00:55) I've lost track a bit of the point, and I appreciate that t8 is right about it being off-topic now! I think the problem started with the discussion concerning the fact that this brutal religion condemns the actions of atheists who have by any reasonable standards made a noble and significant contribution to humanity, or at least have given of themselves for their fellows or inspired them to greater heights of achievement, and will punish them with fire as an act of vengeance simply because they very reasonably conclude that an entirely silent god, for which there is no evidence, does not actually exist. The OT verses are really just highlighting the brutality.  This is a religion that is an abomination: in the end none of it has really done any good. Stuart Hi Stuart, God really does exist and I have documented proof. Prob.18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him. I suggest you examine the documented evidences on the thread… English gematria: interfaces with akjv bible Offers proof of god's existence God bless, Ed J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

I'm sure you mentioned the word proof there Ed, yet you haven't presented a single piece of evidence for the existence of your Imaginary Friend. Bibles are evidence for god in the same way that rainbows are evidence for the gold at the end of them.

If you do have proof then that rather negates your use of the word 'probably', doesn't it.

Stuart

[Ed J]

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 14 2009,12:13)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 14 2009,11:36) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 14 2009,00:55) I've lost track a bit of the point Hi Stuart, God really does exist and I have documented proof. Prob.18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him. I suggest you examine the documented evidences on the thread… English gematria: interfaces with akjv bible Offers proof of god's existence God bless, Ed J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org I'm sure you mentioned the word proof there Ed, yet you haven't presented a single piece of evidence for the existence of your Imaginary Friend.   Bibles are evidence for god in the same way that rainbows are evidence for the gold at the end of them. If you do have proof then that rather negates your use of the word 'probably', doesn't it. Stuart

Hi Stuart,

Proof is in the eye of the beholder; if one's eyes are blind then they cannot be seen, can they?

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Stu]

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 14 2009,12:39)

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 14 2009,12:13) Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 14 2009,11:36) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 14 2009,00:55) I've lost track a bit of the point Hi Stuart, God really does exist and I have documented proof. Prob.18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him. I suggest you examine the documented evidences on the thread… English gematria: interfaces with akjv bible Offers proof of god's existence God bless, Ed J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org I'm sure you mentioned the word proof there Ed, yet you haven't presented a single piece of evidence for the existence of your Imaginary Friend.   Bibles are evidence for god in the same way that rainbows are evidence for the gold at the end of them. If you do have proof then that rather negates your use of the word 'probably', doesn't it. Stuart Hi Stuart, Proof is in the eye of the beholder; if one's eyes are blind then they cannot be seen, can they? God bless Ed J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

So you are saying that bibles are enough evidence for you. That is fine but they are not enough for me and I do not think my position is unreasonable given the amount of the Judeo-christian book of mythology that did not actually happen, the exodus and the flood being the most obvious examples.

Judeo-christian mythology is just so much of what went before, with names and dates changed. Virgin births, resurrections and sick joke promises of eternal life with punishment for those who do not adhere to the religious agenda are all par for the course for countless systems of belief.

What makes yours any different?

Stuart

[Ed J]

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 14 2009,12:58)

So you are saying that bibles are enough evidence for you.  That is fine but they are not enough for me What makes yours any different? Stuart

Hi Stuart,

Did you really read all the posts I made on the other thread?
That is more evidence than in the Bible alone!

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Stu]

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 14 2009,13:07)

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 14 2009,12:58) So you are saying that bibles are enough evidence for you.  That is fine but they are not enough for me What makes yours any different? Stuart Hi Stuart, Did you really read all the posts I made on the other thread? That is more evidence than in the Bible alone! God bless Ed J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Which thread would that be? I don't tend to read the ones I can't post in.

Stuart

[Ed J]

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 14 2009,13:25)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 14 2009,13:07) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 14 2009,12:58) So you are saying that bibles are enough evidence for you.  That is fine but they are not enough for me What makes yours any different? Stuart Hi Stuart, Did you really read all the posts I made on the other thread? That is more evidence than in the Bible alone! God bless Ed J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Which thread would that be?  I don't tend to read the ones I can't post in. Stuart

Hi Stuart,

English gematria: interfaces with akjv bible
Offers proof of god's existence; in the category called “The Bible”.

Even though you cannot in that thread, you can however post anything about it
in the threads that you continue refute God's existence in.
I can respond to you there.

God bless
Ed J
http:www.holycitybiblecode.org

PS. e-mail me if you want the free e-book [@yahoo.com]

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 13 2009,22:04)

Exactly the same applies to the ‘saved’!  The moment you will no longer die is the moment your ‘life’ (whatever it is) loses all motive and meaning.

God's love is what sustains those who have eternal life. Without it, eternal life would be a curse.

And:

Everlasting destruction simply means destroyed forever. It is the same thing.

[Author]

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