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Quote (t8 @ Dec. 12 2009,09:19) I will give you 2 guesses.
I would say, the composer Richard Rogers and the champion cyclist Lance Armstrong.Despite the significant contributions each has made; the beauty that can be beheld in their achievements and the inspiration each has provided for people around the world, they are both fools who do no good and are each destined to burn in the fire for all eternity because they have not accepted Jesus as their saviourTM.
Still, your god is a loving god, joined at the hip to the prince of peace, so I suppose this arrangement is fair…
Stuart
Your view of what scripture teaches appears to be more bound up in tradition than truth, Stu. Show me in scripture where sinners are burned at the stake for eternity and I will show you more than 10 scriptures that say that sinners do not inherit eternal life, no matter the condition of that life.
You are simply regurgitating a Catholic doctrine, i.e., eternal suffering exists and we have the key to make sure you don't go there.
You know Stu, I can see that you tend to believe lies that are told with confidence. Your perceptions do not appear to be based on personal experience or an honest search for truth, but rather who tells lies with the most confidence.
You need to dig a lot more deeper if you ever hope to break free from wrong perceptions and lies.
You are on the wrong bus.
t8
You will notice that I did not use the word stake. Just to clear up what your scriptures actually say, rather than accept your fudging of the true injustices and brutalities of your religion. The following applies to Lance Armstrong, Richard Rodgers (I spelled his name incorrectly earlier) and me:
Ps 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
OK so far? Lance and Richard are amongst those who are corrupt; winning the Tour De France seven times is an abomination of a corrupt man. The composer Alec Wilder wrote about Richard Rodgers : Of all the writers whose songs are considered and examined…, those of Rodgers show the highest degree of consistent excellence, inventiveness, and sophistication…[A]fter spending weeks playing his songs, I am more than impressed and respectful: I am astonished, and yet he did not realist that actually those songs are an abomination.
These things also apply to us trio of heathens:
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction.
Flaming fire…everlasting…
Now, where is the problem in what I wrote? (as opposed to what you are claiming I wrote)
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Dec. 12 2009,20:17) You will notice that I did not use the word stake.
Dude, it was an expression.If you cannot fathom the message, then it might be time to hang up your hat.
Quote (Stu @ Dec. 12 2009,20:17) 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction
Hey Stu.If you have an English dictionary at home, take it off the shelf and look up the word 'destruction'.
Better still, try this link.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/destructionSo everlasting destruction simply means that the wicked will remain destroyed forever. God will never resurrect them. They have missed out on the chance of eternal life. The bible teaches this in quite a number of places. Even John 3:16 (a much quoted verse) says as much.
I really think you need to take a break. You are leaving gaping holes in your argument all over the place and I really do not have time to try and patch them up for you.
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction.
OK. Your link takes us to:
–noun
1. the act of destroying: wanton destruction of a town.
2. the condition of being destroyed; demolition; annihilation.
3. a cause or means of destroying.So your loving god, the alter ego of the prince of peace, will subject 'his' victims to the condition of being destroyed, the act of destroying forever. This is not simply forgetting about the person's 'resurrection' (who would want that anyway) but it is an ongoing act of vengeance, perpetrated by a forgiving god, as a punishment. The means by which this is carried out is fire.
That is just what the scripture says, t8. Nothing more.
Stuart
Quote an ongoing act of vengeance, perpetrated by a forgiving god, as a punishment. I'm not sure how it could be an “ongoing act” of vengeance. Those who do not want to follow the rules, are removed.
Much like when some countries decide someone is incapable of reform, they are considered no longer fit to live (because of the wellfare and justice and peace of others….so that the good, may live in peace) and they are destroyed.
Would you consider their death an “ongoing act of vengeance” on the part of those countries?
And about the fire, the Bible says, the lake of fire, “this MEANS the second DEATH.”
Fire, being a great way to destroy something is used as an understandable (to most anyway) symbol of destruction.
Quote The 'Group: non-believers' means there are threads in which I cannot post. This schism was implemented in the manner of most religious schisms. Isn't it typical that fundamentalist christians respond to difficult questions by shutting the door! The white tile remains unexplained by the mods. –stuart.
Stu, if I understand correctly, even before that separation was made, it was already really there, based on the rules. The rules from the beginning said that, essentially, you have to stay on topic. You can't harass people with your beliefs, and especially if they aren't related to the topic. (It's more tolerable to harass people about your beliefs if those beliefs have something to do with the actual topic.)
You, being, essentially an athiest, can't really discuss your hatred of the Bible or your belief that there is no God in the vast majority of threads, because those posts would be off topic and misplaced.
When I want to talk to someone about dinosaur poop, I'll come to you.
Quote (david @ Dec. 13 2009,17:06) Quote an ongoing act of vengeance, perpetrated by a forgiving god, as a punishment. I'm not sure how it could be an “ongoing act” of vengeance. Those who do not want to follow the rules, are removed.
Much like when some countries decide someone is incapable of reform, they are considered no longer fit to live (because of the wellfare and justice and peace of others….so that the good, may live in peace) and they are destroyed.
Would you consider their death an “ongoing act of vengeance” on the part of those countries?
And about the fire, the Bible says, the lake of fire, “this MEANS the second DEATH.”
Fire, being a great way to destroy something is used as an understandable (to most anyway) symbol of destruction.
Eternal life is not given to the wicked. It is a central theme in scripture.
You need to live forever in order burn in a fire and feel pain forever.
Eternal life and destruction are opposites and scripture teaches that the righteous will inherit eternal life and the wicked will suffer destruction.Humans not attached (by his Spirit) to the eternal God will perish and be destroyed.
Destruction of sinners and the universe (the old order) will take place by fire. It is called the second death and the Lake of Fire. It burns up all things that are not of God or have been tainted in sin.Death actually means separation. The first death is separation of your soul/spirit from your body. The second death is complete separation from God. God is love and the source of all life. Separation from life is not an eternal (suffering) life, but death. This is actually God's mercy because forcing a sinner to exist forever would be a very painful experience. Imagine how mad a sinner could become if he couldn't die. Eternal life would be the worse thing you could give them.
Anyway, I personally am against institutions because in order to gain power, they often use fear, and then somehow convince people that they have the cure. I am also against some science groups because they too seem to be following in the footsteps of some of these abusive religious institutions. In fact it is just a replacement of some of the abuses in the past. They cannot accept anything outside of their own understanding and ridicule anyone that disagrees with them. Many institutions and groups (such as evolutionists) think they have the truth and fight and compete for converts. You are simply caught up in this war Stu. You are a pawn in a battle that you seem ignorant of. A battle for the souls of men.
But a person that seeks the truth will not need an institution to tell him what truth is. First off, every human has a conscience and that can guide you if you let it. Secondly, all humans have access to communication with God. Some choose not to believe because they are not interested in God, so unbelief is convenient for them.
Institutions only do one thing to people. They institutionalise them.
God looks for faith in all generations and all people and the righteous will inherit the earth.
God will cut off the wicked.Quote (Stu @ Dec. 12 2009,23:00) That is just what the scripture says, t8. Nothing more.
You are wrong about that.I can give you 20 texts for starters that clearly teach that the wicked will be no more. It is a central teaching in scripture.
If you are interested, we can discuss that in the 'Doctrinal Disagreements' section.
This topic is different and we shouldn't diverge too much.
Quote (david @ Dec. 13 2009,17:06) Quote an ongoing act of vengeance, perpetrated by a forgiving god, as a punishment. I'm not sure how it could be an “ongoing act” of vengeance. Those who do not want to follow the rules, are removed.
Much like when some countries decide someone is incapable of reform, they are considered no longer fit to live (because of the wellfare and justice and peace of others….so that the good, may live in peace) and they are destroyed.
Would you consider their death an “ongoing act of vengeance” on the part of those countries?
And about the fire, the Bible says, the lake of fire, “this MEANS the second DEATH.”
Fire, being a great way to destroy something is used as an understandable (to most anyway) symbol of destruction.
Why does it say everlasting then? Try reading it without that word. Now put it back and see the difference. It is redundant if the verse is meant to read as you suggest.Stuart
Quote (david @ Dec. 13 2009,17:14) Quote The 'Group: non-believers' means there are threads in which I cannot post. This schism was implemented in the manner of most religious schisms. Isn't it typical that fundamentalist christians respond to difficult questions by shutting the door! The white tile remains unexplained by the mods. –stuart.
Stu, if I understand correctly, even before that separation was made, it was already really there, based on the rules. The rules from the beginning said that, essentially, you have to stay on topic. You can't harass people with your beliefs, and especially if they aren't related to the topic. (It's more tolerable to harass people about your beliefs if those beliefs have something to do with the actual topic.)
You, being, essentially an athiest, can't really discuss your hatred of the Bible or your belief that there is no God in the vast majority of threads, because those posts would be off topic and misplaced.
When I want to talk to someone about dinosaur poop, I'll come to you.
How is the existence of the thing being discussed not relevant?That is a classic case of the emperor's new clothes…
…or the elephant in the room.
Stuart
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction.
This loving god will take vengeance by fire which will result in everlasting destruction. t8 thinks the prince of peace will use fire to put people out of the misery of not accepting the misery of christianity, and that will not be a process that lasts forever. I think the point is an ambiguous one, and that t8 may well just be using another of the contradictions in scripture to paint a different picture. I am happy to concede the point.
So, the revised version becomes 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with destruction.
Which is what will happen to Richard Rodgers and Lance Armstrong, despite the good they have done, but have actually not done because of Ps14:1.
Are we happy with that?
Stuart
t8
Quote Imagine how mad a sinner could become if he couldn't die. Eternal life would be the worse thing you could give them.
Exactly the same applies to the ‘saved’! The moment you will no longer die is the moment your ‘life’ (whatever it is) loses all motive and meaning.Quote Anyway, I personally am against institutions because in order to gain power, they often use fear, and then somehow convince people that they have the cure.
I don’t think Saul of Tarsus would like to hear you say that.Quote I am also against some science groups because they too seem to be following in the footsteps of some of these abusive religious institutions. In fact it is just a replacement of some of the abuses in the past. They cannot accept anything outside of their own understanding and ridicule anyone that disagrees with them. Many institutions and groups (such as evolutionists) think they have the truth and fight and compete for converts. You are simply caught up in this war Stu. You are a pawn in a battle that you seem ignorant of. A battle for the souls of men.
The really sad thing is that I think you might even genuinely believe this. You seem to have no idea about the nature of the interactions between scientists. Your celestial conspiracy theory is wet, t8.Quote all humans have access to communication with God. Some choose not to believe because they are not interested in God, so unbelief is convenient for them.
Others cannot believe because they have had their eyes blinded and hearts hardened (John 12:40) and been told lies (2 Thess 2:11-12) by the same god who then will just have to destroy them by fire in an act of vengeful punishment for not accepting the thing they were prevented from seeing and were told lies about.What a just, forgiving god.
Stuart
You know the really sad thing about all this is that christian mythology needs to present the simple natural process of death as some kind of punishment for those who do not buy into the myth.
What a brutal load of nonsense it is.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Dec. 13 2009,02:46) 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction. This loving god will take vengeance by fire which will result in everlasting destruction. t8 thinks the prince of peace will use fire to put people out of the misery of not accepting the misery of christianity, and that will not be a process that lasts forever. I think the point is an ambiguous one, and that t8 may well just be using another of the contradictions in scripture to paint a different picture. I am happy to concede the point.
So, the revised version becomes 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with destruction.
Which is what will happen to Richard Rodgers and Lance Armstrong, despite the good they have done, but have actually not done because of Ps14:1.
Are we happy with that?
Stuart
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction.States: Punished, not punishing.
States: Destruction, that is the punishment.
States: Everlasting, that destruction is everlasting.
T8 is correct.
“Are we happy with that?” does not change the outcome.
And yes the “Prince of Peace” will destroy wickedness, that is why he is the 'Prince of Peace,” so the righteous one won't have deal with wickedness forever.
Exodus 15:7 And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble.
Job 4:9 By the blast of 'Elohim they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.
Job 6:17 What time they wax warm, they vanish: when it is hot, they are consumed out of their place.
Psalm 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.
Isaiah 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.
Isaiah 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.
Jeremiah 6:29 The bellows are burned, the lead is consumed of the fire; the founder melteth in vain: for the wicked are not plucked away.
Ezekiel 43:8 In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.
Job 15:34 For the congregation of hypocrites shall be desolate, and fire shall consume the tabernacles of bribery.
Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Psalm 59:13 Consume them in wrath, consume them, that they may not be: and let them know that God ruleth in Jacob unto the ends of the earth. Selah.
Ezekiel 13:13 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in my fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in mine anger, and great hailstones in my fury to consume it.
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Psalm 9:5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.
Psalm 37:38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.
Psalm 73:27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.
Psalm 92:7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:
Proverbs 13:13 Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed: but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded.
Proverbs 13:20 He that walketh with wise men shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed.
Daniel 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Acts 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
1 Corinthians 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Quote (Stu @ Dec. 13 2009,03:07) You know the really sad thing about all this is that christian mythology needs to present the simple natural process of death as some kind of punishment for those who do not buy into the myth. What a brutal load of nonsense it is.
Stuart
2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
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