Karmarie

[Stu]

Regarding what Mohammad saw and what the koran says, tell me who actually wrote the koran, and when it was written. Then tell me about oral traditions and the allegorical nature of much ancient Middle Eastern writing. Then tell me that none of the writers of the koran had any motive to make up astonishing facts about Mohammad.

Stuart

[Stu]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 22 2009,17:39)

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,17:35) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 22 2009,17:29) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,17:07) BD Where does your verse actually give any information about gnats? What is this 'forbidding partition'?  An estuary is just an area where waters of different salinity mix.  Any idiot, even Mohammed could work that out by casually tasting water in different placed along a river mouth.  Nothing particularly forbidding, unless you are a freshwater fish, but that is pretty trivial knowledge too. Nice try, but don't think I will be impressed with you finding mentions of species names or common physical effects in the koran, and then attempting to make it seem like the koran went into detail.  It did not! Stuart I understand. Evidence to you is unacceptable itself as long as it pertains to God? You are a funny fellow indeed. How do you suppose Muhammad being in the middle of the desert experienced an estuary do you think they are common? There are only 4 of the continent of Africa none being in the middle of the desert where Muhammad lived. Come on, don't be desperate be honest and admit the facts. Muhammad would have no way of knowing about estuaries nor would it have been signifigant for him to make such a statement at that time because that information would not have been a big deal then. There is no need to dismiss facts just deal with them and let yourself be taught. Where does it give any information about gnats? Stuart It doesn't have to, just tell me why did it mention the gnat for us to be curious about it? The fact is that the gnat shows that evoltion has no basis in reality. You have to pervert the facts to justify your belief in it. What did the gnat evolve from and what has it evolved into?

Thank you for acknowledging that there was nothing special about gnats in the koran.

What 'fact' demonstrates that evolution has no basis in reality?

Stuart

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,17:40)

Regarding what Mohammad saw and what the koran says, tell me who actually wrote the koran, and when it was written.  Then tell me about oral traditions and the allegorical nature of much ancient Middle Eastern writing.  Then tell me that none of the writers of the koran had any motive to make up astonishing facts about Mohammad. Stuart

The Quran was revealed to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel over a period of about 23 years it was written down by his associates and commited to memory as well.

In the Quran there is no miricles recorded except the Quran itself which is the most supreme book in literature history incapable of being written by a man.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,17:48)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 22 2009,17:39) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,17:35) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 22 2009,17:29) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,17:07) BD Where does your verse actually give any information about gnats? What is this 'forbidding partition'?  An estuary is just an area where waters of different salinity mix.  Any idiot, even Mohammed could work that out by casually tasting water in different placed along a river mouth.  Nothing particularly forbidding, unless you are a freshwater fish, but that is pretty trivial knowledge too. Nice try, but don't think I will be impressed with you finding mentions of species names or common physical effects in the koran, and then attempting to make it seem like the koran went into detail.  It did not! Stuart I understand. Evidence to you is unacceptable itself as long as it pertains to God? You are a funny fellow indeed. How do you suppose Muhammad being in the middle of the desert experienced an estuary do you think they are common? There are only 4 of the continent of Africa none being in the middle of the desert where Muhammad lived. Come on, don't be desperate be honest and admit the facts. Muhammad would have no way of knowing about estuaries nor would it have been signifigant for him to make such a statement at that time because that information would not have been a big deal then. There is no need to dismiss facts just deal with them and let yourself be taught. Where does it give any information about gnats? Stuart It doesn't have to, just tell me why did it mention the gnat for us to be curious about it? The fact is that the gnat shows that evoltion has no basis in reality. You have to pervert the facts to justify your belief in it. What did the gnat evolve from and what has it evolved into? Thank you for acknowledging that there was nothing special about gnats in the koran. What 'fact' demonstrates that evolution has no basis in reality? Stuart

What did the gnat evolve from?

[Stu]

I'm not an evolutionary entomologist, so I don't know.

The Holy Wikipedia has this:

Diptera are usually thought to derive from Mecoptera or a strictly related group. First true dipterans are known from the Middle Triassic, becoming widespread during the Middle and Late Triassic

Stuart

[Stu]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 22 2009,17:50)

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,17:40) Regarding what Mohammad saw and what the koran says, tell me who actually wrote the koran, and when it was written.  Then tell me about oral traditions and the allegorical nature of much ancient Middle Eastern writing.  Then tell me that none of the writers of the koran had any motive to make up astonishing facts about Mohammad. Stuart The Quran was revealed to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel over a period of about 23 years it was written down by his associates and commited to memory as well. In the Quran there is no miricles recorded except the Quran itself which is the most supreme book in literature history incapable of being written by a man.

Let's be clear: the koran you read today was not written until after Mohammad's death. He did not have editorial input. The mythical effect of an angel passing stuff to Mohammad to dictate to others cannot possibly have been in play when the writing was formalised, just as the Council of Nicea did not have Jesus sitting at the table when it decided on the canon.

If the koran contains no miracles, why are you trying to suggest that Mohammed could not have known about estuaries? Isn't that intended to convey something miraculous?

Stuart

[karmarie]

Right now Bod and Stu, get back down to the bottom of the page and listen to T8,

You might learn something,

[Stu]

What do you mean by that?

Stuart

[karmarie]

The debate between BD and T8,

I think T8 holds alot of truth, which you could both learn from- if you listen

[Stu]

I have done more 'listening' to t8 than I care to contemplate. What do you think he has to say that is worth hearing?

Stuart

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,18:03)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 22 2009,17:50) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,17:40) Regarding what Mohammad saw and what the koran says, tell me who actually wrote the koran, and when it was written.  Then tell me about oral traditions and the allegorical nature of much ancient Middle Eastern writing.  Then tell me that none of the writers of the koran had any motive to make up astonishing facts about Mohammad. Stuart The Quran was revealed to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel over a period of about 23 years it was written down by his associates and commited to memory as well. In the Quran there is no miricles recorded except the Quran itself which is the most supreme book in literature history incapable of being written by a man. Let's be clear: the koran you read today was not written until after Mohammad's death.  He did not have editorial input.  The mythical effect of an angel passing stuff to Mohammad to dictate to others cannot possibly have been in play when the writing was formalised, just as the Council of Nicea did not have Jesus sitting at the table when it decided on the canon. If the koran contains no miracles, why are you trying to suggest that Mohammed could not have known about estuaries?  Isn't that intended to convey something miraculous? Stuart

It simply shows that he could not have known the information from any known source, demonstrating that the source was in-fact Gabriel

[Stu]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 23 2009,04:16)

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,18:03) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 22 2009,17:50) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,17:40) Regarding what Mohammad saw and what the koran says, tell me who actually wrote the koran, and when it was written.  Then tell me about oral traditions and the allegorical nature of much ancient Middle Eastern writing.  Then tell me that none of the writers of the koran had any motive to make up astonishing facts about Mohammad. Stuart The Quran was revealed to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel over a period of about 23 years it was written down by his associates and commited to memory as well. In the Quran there is no miricles recorded except the Quran itself which is the most supreme book in literature history incapable of being written by a man. Let's be clear: the koran you read today was not written until after Mohammad's death.  He did not have editorial input.  The mythical effect of an angel passing stuff to Mohammad to dictate to others cannot possibly have been in play when the writing was formalised, just as the Council of Nicea did not have Jesus sitting at the table when it decided on the canon. If the koran contains no miracles, why are you trying to suggest that Mohammed could not have known about estuaries?  Isn't that intended to convey something miraculous? Stuart It simply shows that he could not have known the information from any known source, demonstrating that the source was in-fact Gabriel

So it is not miraculous then?

It's not an issue for me really, it is no demonstration of anything remarkable, especially given the much simpler explanations for how Mohammad might have known that (if indeed it was his contribution to the writing), and frankly claiming to hear angels when others cannot makes you a candidate for psychological help.

Is it actually meant to be impressive, or are you reading something into it that was not intended? I think it is credulity, personally.

Stuart

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 23 2009,06:36)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 23 2009,04:16) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,18:03) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 22 2009,17:50) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,17:40) Regarding what Mohammad saw and what the koran says, tell me who actually wrote the koran, and when it was written.  Then tell me about oral traditions and the allegorical nature of much ancient Middle Eastern writing.  Then tell me that none of the writers of the koran had any motive to make up astonishing facts about Mohammad. Stuart The Quran was revealed to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel over a period of about 23 years it was written down by his associates and commited to memory as well. In the Quran there is no miricles recorded except the Quran itself which is the most supreme book in literature history incapable of being written by a man. Let's be clear: the koran you read today was not written until after Mohammad's death.  He did not have editorial input.  The mythical effect of an angel passing stuff to Mohammad to dictate to others cannot possibly have been in play when the writing was formalised, just as the Council of Nicea did not have Jesus sitting at the table when it decided on the canon. If the koran contains no miracles, why are you trying to suggest that Mohammed could not have known about estuaries?  Isn't that intended to convey something miraculous? Stuart It simply shows that he could not have known the information from any known source, demonstrating that the source was in-fact Gabriel So it is not miraculous then? It's not an issue for me really, it is no demonstration of anything remarkable, especially given the much simpler explanations for how Mohammad might have known that (if indeed it was his contribution to the writing), and frankly claiming to hear angels when others cannot makes you a candidate for psychological help. Is it actually meant to be impressive, or are you reading something into it that was not intended?  I think it is credulity, personally. Stuart

What simpler explanation he lived in the middle of the desert.

There are other things as well such as:

3- He created the seven heavens (skies) in layers. You do not see any imperfection in the creation by the Gracious. Turn your eyes again. Do you see any flaw?
67-The Kingdom, 3

The statement in the Quran about seven heavens may be interpreted as seven different strata, seven different dimensions or seven different fields of attraction. A closer analysis of the atmosphere, which, to the naked eye may present uniformity, makes it clear that it is not actually so.

Or this:

12- It is God who created the seven heavens and of the earth the same number. The commands flow among them that you may know that God has power over everything and everything is held within the knowledge of God.
65-Divorce, 12

The 12th verse of sura 65 mentions the seven heavens and as many layers in the earth. We already saw that the seven layers of the heavens were in perfect harmony with each other, each performing its duty impeccably. The 12th verse of the 65th sura establishes a similarity between the heavens and the earth.

Our earth is also stratified as the heavens are, and our life on earth depends on these layers. In the Arabic community of the Prophet’s time, the surface of the earth was an expanse full of mystery. The knowledge prevalent at the time did not permit man to have an inkling of the stratigraphy. The fact that the statement in the Quran of the atmospheric layers is almost a replica of this stratification of the earth is another miracle.

or this:

6- …He creates you, in the wombs of your mothers, in stages, one after the other, in three darkness.
39-The Throngs, 6

The fetus in the mother’s womb is a fragile thing. If it were not protected well, heat, cold, temperature variations, impacts or even the mother’s sudden movement might kill it or cause it irreparable damage. The three zones within the mother’s womb protect the fetus against all sorts of dangers. These are:

1- The abdominal wall,
2- The uterine wall, and
3- The amniotic sac.

With the level of knowledge at the time, this information could not have been available. The fetus continues to develop in the dark of these three regions. The amniotic sac contains a fluid that fills the amnion to protect the embryo from desiccation and shock. This substance is a kind of cushion that absorbs shocks, balances exerted pressures, prevents the amniotic membrane from adhering to the embryo and enables the fetus to change position in the uterus. If the fetus could not easily move in the said fluid, it would remain idle as a mass of flesh and would likely suffer injuries leading to various complications. Equal distribution of heat enables the fetus to be at a constant temperature: 31°C. We observe that our Creator has designed everything perfectly in its minutest detail, satisfying all the requirements of our body and protecting it against the dangers lurking in the outside world.

or this:

30- He made the earth egg-shaped.
79-The Snatchers, 30

The Arabic word “dahw” means rotundity like that of the ostrich’s egg. The above verse was also interpreted to refer to the shaping of the earth in the form of an ostrich egg. Prof. Dr. Suleyman Atefl, former head of Religious Affairs in Turkey, gives the following definition of the word, based on the famous Arabic dictionary Lisan u’l Arab: “The word ‘dahw’ means to spread out, giving (something) a round shape.” The word “dahw” had also been defined as a game played with walnuts. Derived from the same stem, the word “medahi” referred to round stones. Despite the meaning of rotundity concealed in words derived from the word “dahw” there have been translators for whom a spherical earth was difficult to conceive, who had to translate it as “to spread out.” The actual shape of the earth does have the shape of an ostrich egg. Thus the shape of the earth is spheroid with depressions at the poles. The exact figure of the earth which had posed a problem throughout history was established by the Quran.

or this:

6- Have We not made the earth habitable?
7- And the mountains as pegs?
78-The Event, 6-7

Mountains are often mentioned in the Quran. The simile of pegs seems to be preternatural in the light of geological findings of the last century. The mountains we observe on the surface of the earth rest on immense strata that may be ten to fifteen times as deep as the portion remaining on the surface of the earth. For instance, the highest mountain on earth, whose peak attains an altitude of 9 km from the ground, possesses a substratum that goes about 125 km into the depths of the earth. For a peg to b
e able to fulfill its function, the length of the portion stuck in the earth is important. The same holds true for the mountain.

There also exist mountains rising from the bottom of seas that also possess substratum. These substrata support the visible portion of the mountains in accordance with the Archimedean principle. These substrata were unknown until a few centuries back, let alone during the time of the Prophet. The simile in the Quran is once again a miraculous statement.

http://www.quranmiracles.com/

[Ed J]

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,17:48)

What 'fact' demonstrates that evolution has no basis in reality? Stuart

Hi Stuart,

Gene mutations are a necessary component in the Evolutionary scheme.
Gene mutations are “never” positive, only destructive.

Yet this myth is one you stubbornly choose to believe in?
Are you doing something terribly wrong that you want NO accountability for?

Ed J

[Ed J]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 22 2009,17:50)

The Quran was revealed to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel over a period of about 23 years it was written down by his associates and commited to memory as well. In the Quran there is no miricles recorded except the Quran itself which is the most supreme book in literature history incapable of being written by a man.

Hi BD,

What if what was delivered to Muhammad didn't come from Gabriel,
as is the assertion, have you ever considered that?

2Cor.11:3-4 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty,
so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus,
whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received,
or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Gal.1:6-9 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
But though we, or an angel from heaven (Gabriel hmmm?), preach any other gospel
unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel
unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

2Cor.11:14-15 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness;
whose end shall be according to their works. What does the 'record' say concerning Muhammad's works?
Stuart can answer that one, I know his view is unbiased.

Rev.22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book,
If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy,
God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the “HolyCity”=117,
and from the things which are written in this book. “The Bible”=63, the word of “YHVH”=63.

“GOD The Father”=117 (117=יהוה האלהים) is “The Savior”=117!
Why do you reject the ransom sacrifice of his dear son “Jesus”=74 (The “Gospel”=74),
instead choosing to believe in the systems of religion and the traditions of men?

Ed J

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 23 2009,10:40)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 22 2009,17:50) The Quran was revealed to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel over a period of about 23 years it was written down by his associates and commited to memory as well. In the Quran there is no miricles recorded except the Quran itself which is the most supreme book in literature history incapable of being written by a man. Hi BD, What if what was delivered to Muhammad didn't come from Gabriel, as is the assertion, have you ever considered that? 2Cor.11:3-4 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. Gal.1:6-9 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven (Gabriel hmmm?), preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. 2Cor.11:14-15 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. What does the 'record' say concerning Muhammad's works? Stuart can answer that one, I know his view is unbiased. Rev.22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the “HolyCity”=117, and from the things which are written in this book. “The Bible”=63, the word of “YHVH”=63. “GOD The Father”=117 (117=יהוה האלהים) is “The Savior”=117! Why do you reject the ransom sacrifice of his dear son “Jesus”=74 (The “Gospel”=74), instead choosing to believe in the systems of religion and the traditions of men? Ed J

I already asked you why did you believe in what Paul wrote Jesus told you not to believe in anyone who said he saw Jesus, but somehow you don't respond to that question.

Did Jesus really say “it is hard to kick against the pricks”?
Which came from a pagan work years before Jesus was born?

Also in Galations 1:6-9 Paul is saying that this was happening then and not in the future. He is actually speaking against the other disciples that were preaching that gentiles should be converted to Judaism.

Why did you quote Rev.22:18-19 are you attempting to apply these verses to the entire bible when they only apply “to this book” meaning the book of Rev.

[karmarie]

Bod,

Im trying to stick around but its hard,

God was showing me things,   i know i was getting through to you, but then that poster jumped in and started throwing it all at you, i was so wild! Then I got slammed for using the Quran, then you were thrown out of the conversation!  I was so upset, iv been sad ever since, I havent got it in me anymore to show you what i was trying to show you!   it just all got lost.

I will stick with the skeptics place from now on, tho my beliefs in Jesus havent changed

[karmarie]

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,23:19)

I have done more 'listening' to t8 than I care to contemplate.  What do you think he has to say that is worth hearing? Stuart

Iv been so confused lately i dunno what im trying to say half the time lol

[bodhitharta]

Quote (karmarie @ Dec. 23 2009,20:32)

Bod, Im trying to stick around but its hard, God was showing me things,   i know i was getting through to you, but then that poster jumped in and started throwing it all at you, i was so wild! Then I got slammed for using the Quran, then you were thrown out of the conversation!  I was so upset, iv been sad ever since, I havent got it in me anymore to show you what i was trying to show you!   it just all got lost. I will stick with the skeptics place from now on, tho my beliefs in Jesus havent changed

You should show me whatever you are led by God to show me no matter what the consequences, who knows, what you may be trying to show me might be what I'm trying to show you

I don't know why you or anyone gets slammed for using the Quran since everyone here quotes information from everywhere else. But when the Quran comes up it is suddenly forbidden (How evil) We can quote anything on the net except The Quran(Unless you be labeled some sort of sceptic)

The reason I decided to post again (By the grace of God) is I consider those who don't understand as sceptics, So I am calling them sceptics and non-believers, not myself.

Don't be sad(Peace and Blessings be upon you!)

[karmarie]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 24 2009,05:50)

Quote (karmarie @ Dec. 23 2009,20:32) Bod, Im trying to stick around but its hard, God was showing me things,   i know i was getting through to you, but then that poster jumped in and started throwing it all at you, i was so wild! Then I got slammed for using the Quran, then you were thrown out of the conversation!  I was so upset, iv been sad ever since, I havent got it in me anymore to show you what i was trying to show you!   it just all got lost. I will stick with the skeptics place from now on, tho my beliefs in Jesus havent changed You should show me whatever you are led by God to show me no matter what the consequences, who knows, what you may be trying to show me might be what I'm trying to show you I don't know why you or anyone gets slammed for using the Quran since everyone here quotes information from everywhere else. But when the Quran comes up it is suddenly forbidden (How evil) We can quote anything on the net except The Quran(Unless you be labeled some sort of sceptic) The reason I decided to post again (By the grace of God) is I consider those who don't understand as sceptics, So I am calling them sceptics and non-believers, not myself. Don't be sad(Peace and Blessings be upon you!)

Thankyou,

I appretiate your kindness, and feel better allready

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