Karmarie

[Stu]

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(3) If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him. ( An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #93)

But if he kills a non-believer, well that is a different matter.

Stuart

[Stu]

BD

What is your god’s attitude to knowledge that does NOT ‘light the way to heaven’, or show the 'oneness' of allah, but tends to lead people not to believe in such doctrines?

The scholars held in the ‘highest esteem’ are the religious ones today. Presumably other scholars have had to submit to allah, so whatever knowledge they discover than contradicts the koran must also presumably submit, and I guess be expunged. It could not be any other way, could it.

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The Muslims did not translate the scientific and philosophical works of other civilizations out of fear of political or economic domination but because the structure of Islam itself is based upon the primacy of knowledge. Nor did they consider these forms of knowing as “un-lslamic” as long as they confirmed the doctrine of God's Oneness which Islam considers to have been at the heart of every authentic revelation from God.

In the times of great muslim achievements, there was much to be discovered that would not have threatened concepts of god. Indeed most Western scientists were creationists until the nineteenth century, or at least used that as a place-holder for a real explanation. So now we know how the species arose on earth: what is your attitude to that knowledge today? It threatens your god concept so you must deny it, even though the means by which we know it is exactly the same as the means by which modern medicine has discovered how to cure you of most bacterial infections.

Stuart

[Ed J]

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 10 2009,17:55)

Let the evidence do the talking. Stuart

Hi Stuart,

Science has proven it takes life to create life.
There has never been one case of spontaneous life from chemicals,
Yet this is one of Darwin’s false assertions.
Without life starting by itself the can be no evolution?

According to science something must be able to be replicated for it to be Scientific.
Since GOD cannot be replicated, therefore GOD cannot be tested by scientific means.

Yet we exist and the universe exists also.
Therefore logic dictates there was a designer; GOD!

Why do you close your eyes to “Truth”?

Ed J

[Stu]

Ed

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Science has proven it takes life to create life.

True enough.

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There has never been one case of spontaneous life from chemicals,

True. So divine creation must be wrong.

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Yet this is one of Darwin’s false assertions.

I don’t think so. Can you show me where he wrote that?

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Without life starting by itself the can be no evolution?

Without life starting there can be no evolution, obviously. Don’t know what you mean when you say ‘by itself”.

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According to science something must be able to be replicated for it to be Scientific.

Do you not believe in forensic science?

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Since GOD cannot be replicated, therefore GOD cannot be tested by scientific means.

I don’t think that is the reason. Gods cannot be tested because no believer in gods ever says anything about them that CAN be tested.

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Yet we exist and the universe exists also.

That is not necessarily true!

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Therefore logic dictates there was a designer; GOD!

How?

Ed I think you don’t really get the concept of logic.

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Why do you close your eyes to “Truth”?

I don’t. My eyes are open to all possibilities. Are yours?

Stuart

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,13:18)

Quote (3) If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him.   ( An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #93) But if he kills a non-believer, well that is a different matter. Stuart

[17:33] Nor take life – which Allah has made sacred – except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand retaliation or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life, for he is helped (by the Law)

[22:39] Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them;

[42:40-43] The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto (in degree): but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from Allah: for (Allah) loves not those who do wrong. But indeed if any do help and defend themselves after a wrong (done) to them, against such there is no cause of blame. The blame is only against those who oppress men and insolently transgress beyond bounds through the land, defying right and justice: for such there will be a grievous penalty. And whoever is patient and forgiving, these most surely are actions due to courage.

So, no killing is reserved for those contend to do harm

[Stu]

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[17:33] Nor take life – which Allah has made sacred – except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand retaliation or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life, for he is helped (by the Law)

Wouldn't you say that 'just cause' is pretty well defined elsewhere in the case of apostates?

Stuart

[Ed J]

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,13:44)

Ed I don’t think that is the reason.  Gods cannot be tested because no believer in gods ever says anything about them that CAN be tested. Stuart

Hi Stuart,

I have shown you evidences, yet you reject them.

Ed J

[Stu]

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 22 2009,13:56)

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,13:44) Ed I don’t think that is the reason.  Gods cannot be tested because no believer in gods ever says anything about them that CAN be tested. Stuart Hi Stuart, I have shown you evidences, yet you reject them. Ed J

Where did I use the word evidence? I am talking about hypotheses.

Stuart

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,13:30)

BD What is your god’s attitude to knowledge that does NOT ‘light the way to heaven’, or show the 'oneness' of allah, but tends to lead people not to believe in such doctrines? The scholars held in the ‘highest esteem’ are the religious ones today. Presumably other scholars have had to submit to allah, so whatever knowledge they discover than contradicts the koran must also presumably submit, and I guess be expunged.  It could not be any other way, could it. Quote The Muslims did not translate the scientific and philosophical works of other civilizations out of fear of political or economic domination but because the structure of Islam itself is based upon the primacy of knowledge. Nor did they consider these forms of knowing as “un-lslamic” as long as they confirmed the doctrine of God's Oneness which Islam considers to have been at the heart of every authentic revelation from God. In the times of great muslim achievements, there was much to be discovered that would not have threatened concepts of god.  Indeed most Western scientists were creationists until the nineteenth century, or at least used that as a place-holder for a real explanation.  So now we know how the species arose on earth: what is your attitude to that knowledge today?  It threatens your god concept so you must deny it, even though the means by which we know it is exactly the same as the means by which modern medicine has discovered how to cure you of most bacterial infections. Stuart

Actually, anyway you slice it all species are made from the elements of earth however you supposed that to come about would not injure the concept of creation because as I said there are far more interesting things that point to creation.

I would love to know exactly how God did create the different things, it would be mind blowing.

You think balance evolved? Blinking? the moisture of the eye?

do you realize how “evolved” a gnat is?

(1) Surely Allah is not ashamed to set forth any parable– (that of) a gnat or any thing above that; then as for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord, and as for those who disbelieve, they say: What is it that Allah means by this parable: He causes many to err by it and many He leads aright by it! but He does not cause to err by it (any) except the transgressors,
( Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #26)

Considered as an ordinary, insignificant living being, even the gnat is worthy of being examined and pondered since it bears the signs of Allah. This is why “Allah is not ashamed to make the example of a gnat or of an even smaller thing”.

Do you have any idea of the wonder of a gnat but then you should consider the parasite that lives off the gnat which is lice each have extraordinary complexity.

Indeed if you truly studied these things you would have to believe in God.

Consider this:

RESPIRATORY SYSTEM
The respiratory system of the larva is based on a method whereby the larva breathes air by means of a hollow tube pushed up above the water surface.
Meanwhile, larvae hang upside down under the water. A viscous secretion prevents water from leaking into the openings through which larvae breathe.

While the gnat comes out of the water, its head should not contact the water at all, because even one breathless moment may result in the gnat’s choking. Even a breeze or a tiny turbulence on the water surface could be fatal for the gnat.

HOW GNATS PERCEIVE OUTSIDE WORLD
Gnats are equipped with extremely sensitive heat receptors. They perceive the things around them in different colours depending on their heat, as in the picture on
the right. As its perception is not dependent on light, it is quite easy for the gnat to spot blood vessels even in a dark room. The heat receptors of
the gnat are sensitive enough to detect heat differences as small as 1/1,000o C.

The gnat has nearly one hundred eyes. As compound eyes, these are placed on the top of its head. In the picture above, the cross-sections of three of these eyes are shown. On the right, we see how the image of an object is transmitted to the brain from the eye.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,13:55)

Quote [17:33] Nor take life – which Allah has made sacred – except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand retaliation or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life, for he is helped (by the Law) Wouldn't you say that 'just cause' is pretty well defined elsewhere in the case of apostates? Stuart

No, you keep insisting this but it is not true that this is condoned in the Quran

[Stu]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 22 2009,14:16)

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,13:55) Quote [17:33] Nor take life – which Allah has made sacred – except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand retaliation or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life, for he is helped (by the Law) Wouldn't you say that 'just cause' is pretty well defined elsewhere in the case of apostates? Stuart No, you keep insisting this but it is not true that this is condoned in the Quran

I showed you where it said it, and you assigned it to a state of warfare, but I could not find any reason in the context to suggest that it does not apply to any time. Also, there are many muslims in the world who act as if islam is constantly at war.

It says you should kill me because I am a non-believer.

Stuart

[Stu]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 22 2009,14:14)

Actually, anyway you slice it all species are made from the elements of earth however you supposed that to come about would not injure the concept of creation because as I said there are far more interesting things that point to creation. I would love to know exactly how God did create the different things, it would be mind blowing. You think balance evolved? Blinking? the moisture of the eye? do you realize how “evolved” a gnat is? (1) Surely Allah is not ashamed to set forth any parable– (that of) a gnat or any thing above that; then as for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord, and as for those who disbelieve, they say: What is it that Allah means by this parable: He causes many to err by it and many He leads aright by it! but He does not cause to err by it (any) except the transgressors,   ( Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #26) Considered as an ordinary, insignificant living being, even the gnat is worthy of being examined and pondered since it bears the signs of Allah. This is why “Allah is not ashamed to make the example of a gnat or of an even smaller thing”. Do you have any idea of the wonder of a gnat but then you should consider the parasite that lives off the gnat which is lice each have extraordinary complexity. Indeed if you truly studied these things you would have to believe in God. Consider this: RESPIRATORY SYSTEM The respiratory system of the larva is based on a method whereby the larva breathes air by means of a hollow tube pushed up above the water surface.   Meanwhile, larvae hang upside down under the water. A viscous secretion prevents water from leaking into the openings through which larvae breathe. While the gnat comes out of the water, its head should not contact the water at all, because even one breathless moment may result in the gnat’s choking. Even a breeze or a tiny turbulence on the water surface could be fatal for the gnat. HOW GNATS PERCEIVE OUTSIDE WORLD Gnats are equipped with extremely sensitive heat receptors. They perceive the things around them in different colours depending on their heat, as in the picture on the right. As its perception is not dependent on light, it is quite easy for the gnat to spot blood vessels even in a dark room. The heat receptors of the gnat are sensitive enough to detect heat differences as small as 1/1,000o C. The gnat has nearly one hundred eyes. As compound eyes, these are placed on the top of its head. In the picture above, the cross-sections of three of these eyes are shown. On the right, we see how the image of an object is transmitted to the brain from the eye.

So what?

All you have is assertion and the appeal to personal incredulity.

Science has data. Do you have anything else, like a disproof of Darwin, or can we move on?

Stuart

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,14:46)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 22 2009,14:16) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,13:55) Quote [17:33] Nor take life – which Allah has made sacred – except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand retaliation or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life, for he is helped (by the Law) Wouldn't you say that 'just cause' is pretty well defined elsewhere in the case of apostates? Stuart No, you keep insisting this but it is not true that this is condoned in the Quran I showed you where it said it, and you assigned it to a state of warfare, but I could not find any reason in the context to suggest that it does not apply to any time.  Also, there are many muslims in the world who act as if islam is constantly at war. It says you should kill me because I am a non-believer.   Stuart

As I said you misunderstand the scriptures it is clear that killing is not prescribed for the fun of it and I know you know it but as your arguments get weaker you seem to be getting desperate in your claims, which I do understand but you should pull yourself together.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,14:49)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 22 2009,14:14) Actually, anyway you slice it all species are made from the elements of earth however you supposed that to come about would not injure the concept of creation because as I said there are far more interesting things that point to creation. I would love to know exactly how God did create the different things, it would be mind blowing. You think balance evolved? Blinking? the moisture of the eye? do you realize how “evolved” a gnat is? (1) Surely Allah is not ashamed to set forth any parable– (that of) a gnat or any thing above that; then as for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord, and as for those who disbelieve, they say: What is it that Allah means by this parable: He causes many to err by it and many He leads aright by it! but He does not cause to err by it (any) except the transgressors,   ( Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #26) Considered as an ordinary, insignificant living being, even the gnat is worthy of being examined and pondered since it bears the signs of Allah. This is why “Allah is not ashamed to make the example of a gnat or of an even smaller thing”. Do you have any idea of the wonder of a gnat but then you should consider the parasite that lives off the gnat which is lice each have extraordinary complexity. Indeed if you truly studied these things you would have to believe in God. Consider this: RESPIRATORY SYSTEM The respiratory system of the larva is based on a method whereby the larva breathes air by means of a hollow tube pushed up above the water surface.   Meanwhile, larvae hang upside down under the water. A viscous secretion prevents water from leaking into the openings through which larvae breathe. While the gnat comes out of the water, its head should not contact the water at all, because even one breathless moment may result in the gnat’s choking. Even a breeze or a tiny turbulence on the water surface could be fatal for the gnat. HOW GNATS PERCEIVE OUTSIDE WORLD Gnats are equipped with extremely sensitive heat receptors. They perceive the things around them in different colours depending on their heat, as in the picture on the right. As its perception is not dependent on light, it is quite easy for the gnat to spot blood vessels even in a dark room. The heat receptors of the gnat are sensitive enough to detect heat differences as small as 1/1,000o C. The gnat has nearly one hundred eyes. As compound eyes, these are placed on the top of its head. In the picture above, the cross-sections of three of these eyes are shown. On the right, we see how the image of an object is transmitted to the brain from the eye. So what? All you have is assertion and the appeal to personal incredulity. Science has data.  Do you have anything else, like a disproof of Darwin, or can we move on? Stuart

How could Muhammad have known this? The tools weren't even available to know about gnats. Yet a parable was set forth?

Did you know that the estuary was described in the Quran?

Allah (SWT) says: “It is He Who has mixed up (maraja) the two seas, this (one) very fresh [river], and this (other one) very salt, and has made between them a barrier and a forbidding partition.” (Quran 25: 53)

who would inform Muhammad of something only recently understood in the middle of the desert?

[Stu]

BD

Where does your verse actually give any information about gnats?

What is this 'forbidding partition'? An estuary is just an area where waters of different salinity mix. Any idiot, even Mohammed could work that out by casually tasting water in different placed along a river mouth. Nothing particularly forbidding, unless you are a freshwater fish, but that is pretty trivial knowledge too.

Nice try, but don't think I will be impressed with you finding mentions of species names or common physical effects in the koran, and then attempting to make it seem like the koran went into detail. It did not!

Stuart

[Stu]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 22 2009,16:43)

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,14:46) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 22 2009,14:16) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,13:55) Quote [17:33] Nor take life – which Allah has made sacred – except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand retaliation or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life, for he is helped (by the Law) Wouldn't you say that 'just cause' is pretty well defined elsewhere in the case of apostates? Stuart No, you keep insisting this but it is not true that this is condoned in the Quran I showed you where it said it, and you assigned it to a state of warfare, but I could not find any reason in the context to suggest that it does not apply to any time.  Also, there are many muslims in the world who act as if islam is constantly at war. It says you should kill me because I am a non-believer.   Stuart As I said you misunderstand the scriptures it is clear that killing is not prescribed for the fun of it and I know you know it but as your arguments get weaker you seem to be getting desperate in your claims, which I do understand but you should pull yourself together.

So you have no argument against the fact that the koran tells you to kill non-believers, whether or not in wartime, and that it is specifically non-believers that are the target of 4:89.

Stuart

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,17:07)

BD Where does your verse actually give any information about gnats? What is this 'forbidding partition'?  An estuary is just an area where waters of different salinity mix.  Any idiot, even Mohammed could work that out by casually tasting water in different placed along a river mouth.  Nothing particularly forbidding, unless you are a freshwater fish, but that is pretty trivial knowledge too. Nice try, but don't think I will be impressed with you finding mentions of species names or common physical effects in the koran, and then attempting to make it seem like the koran went into detail.  It did not! Stuart

I understand. Evidence to you is unacceptable itself as long as it pertains to God?

You are a funny fellow indeed. How do you suppose Muhammad being in the middle of the desert experienced an estuary do you think they are common?

There are only 4 of the continent of Africa none being in the middle of the desert where Muhammad lived. Come on, don't be desperate be honest and admit the facts. Muhammad would have no way of knowing about estuaries nor would it have been signifigant for him to make such a statement at that time because that information would not have been a big deal then.

There is no need to dismiss facts just deal with them and let yourself be taught.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,17:09)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 22 2009,16:43) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,14:46) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 22 2009,14:16) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,13:55) Quote [17:33] Nor take life – which Allah has made sacred – except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand retaliation or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life, for he is helped (by the Law) Wouldn't you say that 'just cause' is pretty well defined elsewhere in the case of apostates? Stuart No, you keep insisting this but it is not true that this is condoned in the Quran I showed you where it said it, and you assigned it to a state of warfare, but I could not find any reason in the context to suggest that it does not apply to any time.  Also, there are many muslims in the world who act as if islam is constantly at war. It says you should kill me because I am a non-believer.   Stuart As I said you misunderstand the scriptures it is clear that killing is not prescribed for the fun of it and I know you know it but as your arguments get weaker you seem to be getting desperate in your claims, which I do understand but you should pull yourself together. So you have no argument against the fact that the koran tells you to kill non-believers, whether or not in wartime, and that it is specifically non-believers that are the target of 4:89. Stuart

Why would I have an argument against those who wish to kill believers being killed? Those who are non-believers who attack in violence those of belief are the worst of humanity.

[Stu]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 22 2009,17:29)

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,17:07) BD Where does your verse actually give any information about gnats? What is this 'forbidding partition'?  An estuary is just an area where waters of different salinity mix.  Any idiot, even Mohammed could work that out by casually tasting water in different placed along a river mouth.  Nothing particularly forbidding, unless you are a freshwater fish, but that is pretty trivial knowledge too. Nice try, but don't think I will be impressed with you finding mentions of species names or common physical effects in the koran, and then attempting to make it seem like the koran went into detail.  It did not! Stuart I understand. Evidence to you is unacceptable itself as long as it pertains to God? You are a funny fellow indeed. How do you suppose Muhammad being in the middle of the desert experienced an estuary do you think they are common? There are only 4 of the continent of Africa none being in the middle of the desert where Muhammad lived. Come on, don't be desperate be honest and admit the facts. Muhammad would have no way of knowing about estuaries nor would it have been signifigant for him to make such a statement at that time because that information would not have been a big deal then. There is no need to dismiss facts just deal with them and let yourself be taught.

Where does it give any information about gnats?

Stuart

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,17:35)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 22 2009,17:29) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2009,17:07) BD Where does your verse actually give any information about gnats? What is this 'forbidding partition'?  An estuary is just an area where waters of different salinity mix.  Any idiot, even Mohammed could work that out by casually tasting water in different placed along a river mouth.  Nothing particularly forbidding, unless you are a freshwater fish, but that is pretty trivial knowledge too. Nice try, but don't think I will be impressed with you finding mentions of species names or common physical effects in the koran, and then attempting to make it seem like the koran went into detail.  It did not! Stuart I understand. Evidence to you is unacceptable itself as long as it pertains to God? You are a funny fellow indeed. How do you suppose Muhammad being in the middle of the desert experienced an estuary do you think they are common? There are only 4 of the continent of Africa none being in the middle of the desert where Muhammad lived. Come on, don't be desperate be honest and admit the facts. Muhammad would have no way of knowing about estuaries nor would it have been signifigant for him to make such a statement at that time because that information would not have been a big deal then. There is no need to dismiss facts just deal with them and let yourself be taught. Where does it give any information about gnats? Stuart

It doesn't have to, just tell me why did it mention the gnat for us to be curious about it?

The fact is that the gnat shows that evoltion has no basis in reality.

You have to pervert the facts to justify your belief in it. What did the gnat evolve from and what has it evolved into?

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