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Quote (JustAskin @ May 06 2010,17:33) How does saying “BY PROXY” make it so. A proxy is someone acting on behalf of someone else. I say the Name (if it has to have one) is the name of it's owner BY PROXY.
Okay, then if it is a name by proxy (as you say) then please explain why Jesus would ascribe the same name to an “amorphous power or force” since you seem to believe the Holy Spirit spoken of here does not have his own identity?Please explain why Jesus would give the same credence to the Holy Spirit as to the Father and the Son in the same verse?
You said…”A proxy is **someone** acting on behalf of someone else.“
Waiting….
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 12 2010,17:20) Quote (JustAskin @ May 06 2010,17:33) How does saying “BY PROXY” make it so. A proxy is someone acting on behalf of someone else. I say the Name (if it has to have one) is the name of it's owner BY PROXY.
Okay, then if it is a name by proxy (as you say) then please explain why Jesus would ascribe the same name to an “amorphous power or force” since you seem to believe the Holy Spirit spoken of here does not have his own identity?Please explain why Jesus would give the same credence to the Holy Spirit as to the Father and the Son in the same verse?
You said…”A proxy is **someone** acting on behalf of someone else.“
Waiting….
WJ
JAAnd while you are at it, explain why the Apostles baptized in Jesus name if what you say is true!
You said…”…the Name (if it has to have one) is the name of it's owner BY PROXY”.
So does this mean that Jesus is the “Owner” of the Holy Spirit, since it is in his name that all authority and power is invested?
Waiting…
WJ
WJ,
Is this all that hard to understand, or is there another reason why the complete weight of everyone in this forum against you hasn't touched a nerve in you?What name would you give to YOUR spirit, Keith?, Keith?
You wrote a book. Whose spirit is in that book, Keith?, Keith?
That book contains your spirit (unless…) So, what is the Name of the Spirit in Your Book, Keith? Is it not 'Keith'? But not 'Keith' the person, but 'Keith' the spirit [of Keith, the person].
What is the Name of Jehovah's Spirit…is it not the name of it's owner (Before it gets there: Jesus is Not the Owner of the Spirit, only the Holder for a period of time, just as Joseph didn't Own Pharoah's signet ring but was just the 'Holder' for a period of time.)
And, at no time do I claim that the Holy Spirit has it's own identity (Name).
WJ, if that is what You think then “WJ, What is the name of the Holy Spirit, from a trinitarian perspective?”
You keep alluding to it but then try to get others to find it for you. Why? You tell us, please, what You say it is!
Quote (JustAskin @ May 12 2010,17:42) WJ,
Is this all that hard to understand, or is there another reason why the complete weight of everyone in this forum against you hasn't touched a nerve in you?What name would you give to YOUR spirit, Keith?, Keith?
You wrote a book. Whose spirit is in that book, Keith?, Keith?
That book contains your spirit (unless…) So, what is the Name of the Spirit in Your Book, Keith? Is it not 'Keith'? But not 'Keith' the person, but 'Keith' the spirit [of Keith, the person].
What is the Name of Jehovah's Spirit…is it not the name of it's owner (Before it gets there: Jesus is Not the Owner of the Spirit, only the Holder for a period of time, just as Joseph didn't Own Pharoah's signet ring but was just the 'Holder' for a period of time.)
And, at no time do I claim that the Holy Spirit has it's own identity (Name).
WJ, if that is what You think then “WJ, What is the name of the Holy Spirit, from a trinitarian perspective?”
You keep alluding to it but then try to get others to find it for you. Why? You tell us, please, what You say it is!
JAI am not alluding to it, Jesus is. He said the Holy Spirit has a name in Matthew 28:19
You done a marvelous job with the dance and not answering my questions once again.
WJ
Quote (JustAskin @ May 12 2010,17:42) WJ,
Is this all that hard to understand, or is there another reason why the complete weight of everyone in this forum against you hasn't touched a nerve in you?
JADo you think I care about the weight of everyone else on this forum? I care about the truth.
WJ
JA
I am waiting for a response to the following questions…
Okay, then if it is a name by proxy (as you say) then please explain why Jesus would ascribe the same name to an “amorphous power or force” since you seem to believe the Holy Spirit spoken of here does not have his own identity?
Please explain why Jesus would give the same credence to the Holy Spirit as to the Father and the Son in the same verse?
You said…”A proxy is **someone** acting on behalf of someone else.“
—————————————————————————————–
And while you are at it, explain why the Apostles baptized in Jesus name if what you say is true!
You said…”…the Name (if it has to have one) is the name of it's owner BY PROXY”.
So does this mean that Jesus is the “Owner” of the Holy Spirit, since it is in his name that all authority and power is invested?
Waiting…
WJ
Quote (JustAskin @ May 12 2010,17:42) What is the Name of Jehovah's Spirit…is it not the name of it's owner (Before it gets there: Jesus is Not the Owner of the Spirit, only the Holder for a period of time, just as Joseph didn't Own Pharoah's signet ring but was just the 'Holder' for a period of time.)
JASo for a period of time Jesus is the “holder of the Father and the Spirit”?
The three are spoken of with a singular name, remember?
What happens later?
Your post makes no sense and is convoluted!
WJ
No WJ.
You are force fitting things.
I really wonder what it is that you are trying to see in your illusion..but you know what, I don't wanna know!
You keep alluding to the Holy Spirit having a name but cannot name that name. Why? Confidence in your own statement, where is the fruit, the profit, the answer, to your confidence? What is the name of the Holy Spirit?
Twister…I do not say that Jesus owns anything. I say that Jesus 'holds' the power and authority of God. Did I not spell that out in the analogy of Joseph andnPharoah: Joseph does not OWN Pharoah's Signet Ring. Joseph 'holds' Pharoah's signet ring and wield power through it until it is requested, and returned, to Pharoah, it's 'Owner'.
I borrow my dad's posh car and go to a fancy shindig. That car commands authority and respect amongst the observers, crowds part without a toot on the horn, barriers open without a pass being requested, the best parking place is reserved for it.
Someone says, 'coo, whose car is that? Who owns that car?' well, my dad does, he owns it, i'm holding it fot tonight, driving it for the night.
Then, when the shindig is over, the car is returned to it's owner.WJ, why do you say 'Jesus owns the father and the spirit'? Are you just trying to be argumentative? There is no need for such silly questions. Because I say that the name, if it need be given one, of the Holy Spirit, is the name of it's owner, YHWH, it is thento be implied that Jesus 'owns', which I did not say, all who have that name?
For this reason, WJ, there us no point of debate. Your thrashing is pointless because there is no answer to your questions because they are not valid questions.
You say you don't care about weights against you but how many threads have blown up over this one verse and everytime the response is against you but you just continue thrashing in another thread. How many does it take to make you say, 'you know what, I might be wrong?'
Scriptures is fractal…where else is there a supporting verse?
And, if the disciples were told 'to baptise in the name of the father[Jehovah], and in the name of the Son [Jesus], and in the name of theHoly Spirit[?], why did they then only baptise in the name of Jesus, alone?
Perhaps, as has been suggested, there never was such a verse, words from Christ.At the least, it would be '…WITH the Holy Spirit'.
Where else in Scriptures is anyone directed to do anything 'In the Name of the Holy Spirit' but that Scriptures says, 'John 8:39: …the Holy Spirit [is] Given…', Jesus was 'overshadowed' by the Holy Spirit, pentecost,…Steven, etc, etc. All are immersed in the Holy Spirit, given it, not by it's 'name' but by it's power, the power of it's owner Jehovah.
WJ, why do I get the feeling that you are deliberately being obstructive to commin sense reasoning.
Do you enjoy being wrong? Is arguing against Truthful Scriptures your turn on?
Why do you do it?When you are proved wrong by one you simply move to another and start the whole process again hoping to win over a lesser opponent as you have done here. Having been beaten by your own self, you took the topic outside thus debate and got beaten there and now you moved back here to get beaten again!
JA
Quote (JustAskin @ May 12 2010,20:21) Perhaps, as has been suggested, there never was such a verse, words from Christ.
Thank you! At least you now admit that you doubt this scripture!That explains why you want this to be over and keep on puking nonsense diatribe and Ad hominems about my person rather than address the points or the questions!
For your information the Name of the Father is not “YHWH”, that is the tetragammation, the exact pronunciation of the Fathers name is lost.
Also, we do not know the name of the Holy Spirit just as we do not know the name of the Father.
But we do know the name that the Apostles baptised into which is a fulfillment of Jesus words in Matt 28:18, 19.
But you cannot seem to reconcile the two, though the truth is right in front of you!
As usual ATs when they cannot explain something that contradicts their manmade theology they resort to Ad hominems and questioning the written and inspired text.
WJ
WJ,
God may bless you one day “But today is NOT THAT DAY” (“Gladiator”)
So God has no name because we do not know it's exact pronunciation – Hmmm – Interesting…!
What is your name, Keith? If I was not an English Speaker and had never heard your name spoken then how would I pronounce your Name? and would that then mean you had No Name?
Tell, me, what is the significance of NAMES in the Scriptures? In that they are not merely labels, as we give to our children today but meaningful reflections of the nature and character of that person (When I write my Application Programs, I give meaningful names to 'objects' that I create in that application – each name reflects, within reason of charcter length and my toloerance of typing long name, the purpose and nature of that object:e.g. car_Blue_BMW(x))
WJ, I know you are stuck in a corner and that is why you are posting this nonsense – One day you will read it back and feel sorry that you did.
WJ,
What I said and “The ONLY THING YOU QUOTED” from what I wrote: It is a possiblility – I did not say that it was fact – I asked you to find another Matching verse but this is your response?
Please showing a matching verse to consolidate your claim for validity of this verse. THERE MUST BE ONE if it is valid.
Hi
Quote (JustAskin @ May 13 2010,07:11) WJ, God may bless you one day “But today is NOT THAT DAY” (“Gladiator”)
This is the kind of lies that satan speaks against me everyday.Thing is, even the heathen are blessed every day by the rising and setting of the Sun. So what does that make your statement?
You speak only “Shadows and dust” (Gladiator).
Quote (JustAskin @ May 13 2010,07:11) So God has no name because we do not know it's exact pronunciation – Hmmm – Interesting…!
Think real hard, because if you only have the consonants of a name and you add vowels as you see fit, or that you think should be there, then that means you may or may not have the name. Would it mean anything to YHWH to have people speaking a name that is not his? So you misrepresent me again, for I have never said God does not have a name but only that we do not know it, and Jesus and the Apostles did not speak it that we know of. The exact pronunciation of YHWH is lost!Quote (JustAskin @ May 13 2010,07:11) What is your name, Keith? If I was not an English Speaker and had never heard your name spoken then how would I pronounce your Name? and would that then mean you had No Name?
Surely you are smarter than this. If someone who could speak English was told my name was “KTH”, how would they possibly be able to speak my name especially if they speak another language. How many possibilities would there be for the correct spelling of my name? But again you are arguing a point that I never made, for I never said God does not have a name.Quote (JustAskin @ May 13 2010,07:11) Tell, me, what is the significance of NAMES in the Scriptures? In that they are not merely labels, as we give to our children today but meaningful reflections of the nature and character of that person (When I write my Application Programs, I give meaningful names to 'objects' that I create in that application – each name reflects, within reason of charcter length and my toloerance of typing long name, the purpose and nature of that object:e.g. car_Blue_BMW(x))
True, so that should be of concern for you especially being that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit share the same name or names!
Quote (JustAskin @ May 13 2010,07:11) WJ, I know you are stuck in a corner and that is why you are posting this nonsense – One day you will read it back and feel sorry that you did. WJ
Quote (JustAskin @ May 13 2010,07:14) WJ, What I said and “The ONLY THING YOU QUOTED” from what I wrote: It is a possiblility – I did not say that it was fact – I asked you to find another Matching verse but this is your response?
Please showing a matching verse to consolidate your claim for validity of this verse. THERE MUST BE ONE if it is valid.
JAWhat you have done is cast doubt on the scriptures, which is another trait of satan. “Hath God surely said…?”
You want to go there, that is up to you.
As far as supporting verses for Matt 28:19, there are many scritpures that speak of the three, some of which I have shown to Mike in response to his statement that the Holy Spirit does not have any authority over us.
As far as a verse just like it, well can you give me an exact match to John 4:24, “God is a Spirit”…?
So how many scriptures does it take for you to believe them?
WJ
WJ,
Why are you changing the subject.
Please supply a qualifying verse for Matthew 28:19.
Quote “God is Spirit” WJ, why are you trying so hard to make yourself look like waht you are trying so hard NOT to look like?
Where did you suddenly lift that part verse from in term of a discussion? What point are you trying to make? Hve you been trying to do homework?
What are you asking – that all the scriptures stating that God is spirit needs to be proved – this is your “Get out of Jail card” – W, you don't know it but it is a very expensive card you are playing – You are asking to prove what God is? Is this wise?
What is the Form of God, What is God's Nature? God's form and nature is Spirit…
All entities that occupy the heavenly realm is in the form of Spirit: Jesus is IN THE SAME NATURE AS God – a Spirit; Tha Angels are in the same nature as God – Spirit – That is: a [living, sentient, entity] not possessing a physical, material body.
The point of John4:24 is not to Prove that God is Spirit but to show that God desire Spiritual Worship – not Fleshly, earthly worship – it has nothing to do with 'proving that God is Spirit' that it should need restating. 1 corintians: 15:50 states that flesh and Blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God – ipso facto: All that is in GOd's kingdom is Spirit.
WJ, your “Get out of jail card” only gets you as far as the Jailhouse door – it does not let you “Out” of jail”.
Why did you choose that part verse to try to wriggle out of qualifiying what you asked before. Did you just think “oh, I know, I'll scrape the barrel for an obscure single saying and try him on that” and came up with that one/ Are you really asking What God is – Surely even you know better than that – This isn't even a point of dispute between ANYBODY AT ALL AT ANY TIME EVER…
WJ,
Please try something else that makes more real sense – something of value worth discussing.
In short then:
The WHOLE of Scriptures qualifies that “God is Spirit”.WJ,
Your desperation is driving you wild.
Jesus was sent to reveal the Father.
Do you honestly believe that when Jesus read the Scriptures (the OT, of course), that he did not pronounce his Father's name. His Father's name where is whitewashed over with the word 'LORD' today?
The Jews would not pronounce the name of God for fear of blasheming, using His name when swearing an oath, or cursing someone.
Do you believe that Jesus had tgat fear?
How would God's name be pronounced in French, in Italian, in German, in Spanish, in Swahili, in Norwegian, in Flemish, in Russian, in Portugese, in Welsh, in Romanse, in Yidish, in Eskimo, in Aboriginy, in Chinese, in Japanese, in India, in … Whatever Language?
The answer, WJ, is the equivalent in that language of 'I AM' (Or 'I will be').
God said 'That is my name forever'.Quote (JustAskin @ May 19 2010,18:23) WJ, Your desperation is driving you wild.
Jesus was sent to reveal the Father.
Do you honestly believe that when Jesus read the Scriptures (the OT, of course), that he did not pronounce his Father's name. His Father's name where is whitewashed over with the word 'LORD' today?
The Jews would not pronounce the name of God for fear of blasheming, using His name when swearing an oath, or cursing someone.
Do you believe that Jesus had tgat fear?
How would God's name be pronounced in French, in Italian, in German, in Spanish, in Swahili, in Norwegian, in Flemish, in Russian, in Portugese, in Welsh, in Romanse, in Yidish, in Eskimo, in Aboriginy, in Chinese, in Japanese, in India, in … Whatever Language?
The answer, WJ, is the equivalent in that language of 'I AM' (Or 'I will be').
God said 'That is my name forever'.
JAJust give me one scripture where Jesus spoke the Fathers name.
Then give me one where the Apostles spoke his name!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 12 2010,19:39) JA Quote (JustAskin @ May 12 2010,20:21) Perhaps, as has been suggested, there never was such a verse, words from Christ.
Thank you! At least you now admit that you doubt this scripture!That explains why you want this to be over and keep on puking nonsense diatribe and Ad hominems about my person rather than address the points or the questions!
For your information the Name of the Father is not “YHWH”, that is the tetragammation, the exact pronunciation of the Fathers name is lost.
Also, we do not know the name of the Holy Spirit just as we do not know the name of the Father.
But we do know the name that the Apostles baptised into which is a fulfillment of Jesus words in Matt 28:18, 19.
But you cannot seem to reconcile the two, though the truth is right in front of you!
As usual ATs when they cannot explain something that contradicts their manmade theology they resort to Ad hominems and questioning the written and inspired text.
WJ
Hi AllI bumped this quote for JA showing that he began to doubt Matt 28:19 as valid, which is proof IMO that he believes it speaks of the “Trinity”.
WJ
Bump for JA!
JA
I am waiting for a response to the following questions…
Okay, then if it is a name by proxy (as you say) then please explain why Jesus would ascribe the same name to an “amorphous power or force” since you seem to believe the Holy Spirit spoken of here does not have his own identity?
Please explain why Jesus would give the same credence to the Holy Spirit as to the Father and the Son in the same verse?
You said…”A proxy is **someone** acting on behalf of someone else.“
—————————————————————————————–
And while you are at it, explain why the Apostles baptized in Jesus name if what you say is true!
You said…”…the Name (if it has to have one) is the name of it's owner BY PROXY”.
So does this mean that Jesus is the “Owner” of the Holy Spirit, since it is in his name that all authority and power is invested?
Waiting…
WJ
Bump for JA
Quote (JustAskin @ April 27 2010,09:34) WJ………………..!!! Jehovah is a Proper-Name, not a Title.
Mighty God, I think this is Check Mate to me, a mere pawn!
Everything you have written comes straight out of the book of “The Defeated adversaries Handbook of excuses”
So sad, not even gracious in defeat – so sad. But ok, if that is your way – so sad, though, really.
Ok, Now what else ya wanna 'Hit Me' with?
JAWhat is so sad is you cannot answer a question and then claim victory!
- Does the Holy Spirit have a name?
- If no how do you explain Matt 28:19?
I have given you a scriptural explanation and all you have done is a dance!
WJ
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