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PLEASE ALL OTHERS DO NOT POST ON THIS THREAD FOR IT IS FOR JA AND MYSELF!
Hi ALL
JA insists that the Bible does not teach a Trinity. While the word Trinity is not found in the scriptures, the concept of the Trinity is.
The Trinity doctrine is a derived doctrine found in the scriptures by comparing scripture with scripture and taking the whole council of God into view rather than a bird’s eye view of the scriptures.
Trinitarians take all scriptures into account and not just pick or choose select scriptures out of context to support their belief.
Eisegesis is the order of the day for the ATs (Anti-Trinitarians), and the denial of, or blotting out certain scriptures in order to hold on to man made doctrines.
So I have challenged JA to a debate to prove that the Trinity view is not found in scriptures.
This will be a long uphill climb for him because the first scripture that I will deal with is Jesus own words in Matthew 28:19…
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in “the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost“:
The above scriptures are proof of a Trinity. Though JA and every other AT may say they are not God, the scriptures still shows there are three!
So the first challenge that JA has, is to show us how the scriptures do not declare the three to be God!
So my question to JA is…
- Do you believe there are three spoken of in the scriptures having the same name as Matt 28:19 declares?
- Do you believe that they are “One' in Spirit?
- If yes to the 2 questions above, can you show how they do not share the same essence or nature in Spirit?
As far as rules for this debate, I would ask that we try to be courteous and respectful. I do not make any demands on time for a response from you, and hope you do not make any on me.
JA if you have any other ideas or rules, please post them.
PLEASE ALL OTHERS DO NOT POST ON THIS THREAD FOR IT IS FOR JA AND MYSELF!
Thank you JA for accepting my challenge and happy posting!
WJ
Modified on Jan 18, 2011 for grammar and spelling errors.
Welcome WJ,
Thank you for engaging with me and especially for the topic you have chosen.
My only rule to add is that we are both Honest and God Almighty fearing (And I charge you before The One God of Abraham, Jacob and Isaac, with holding to that!)
WJ,
Your opening question: Are there three spoken of in the Scripture having the same name as Matthew 28:19 declares?
WJ, I agree that there are three mentioned in that scripture verse and, at superficial reading, appears structurally to be alluding to one name for all three.
However, digging a little deeper reveals a number of anomalies:
1) The verse is structurally tortuous as nowhere in Scriptures is there a mention of 'the name of the Holy Spirit'
2) No Disciple or Apostle ever baptised 'in the name of the Holy Spirit' but instead baptised 'in the name of Jesus' and they, themselves, and Jesus, Himself, were the only ones baptised 'WITH the Holy Spirit' according to the Scriptures.
3) No Disciple or Apostle baptised 'in the name of the Father' but only 'in the name Jesus' according to the Scriptures.
4) Why does the verse not just say '…in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit'? Why the 'of'…alludes to personal possession, maybe?
So, what to make of the verse… Well, consider another usage of the term 'In the name of'.
It can also mean 'in the power of' or 'by the authority of'
Consider these uses:
'Stop, in the name of the law'
'In the name of justice, it's a petty crime. Dont send him down'What is the 'name' of the law?
What is the 'name' of justice?It is clear that 'in the name of' means 'by the authority of', 'by the power of'
So, plug this valid synonym into Matthew 28:19:
'…baptise them in the power of the father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit'Here, now, the verse is structurally sound and unequivocal.
So, WJ, Matthew 28:19 is not claiming that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit have the same name in which baptism should be carried out.
It means that baptism should ve carried out in/with the power and/or authority of all three: The Father, His Holy Spirit and His Son.Are they One in Spirit, most assuredly not.
Jesus has his own Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is of the Father (this is clearly implied by it very title: Holy Spirit of God)
'God is [himself] a Spirit'. He is the only person with an unconstrained Spirit (God does have a body, soul to contain His Spirit, has no need of a body so to do)
Jesus has been privileged to have full authority of His Fathers Spirit, along with his own, to enable him to bring about the reconcilliation of the Kingdom.WJ, I hope you find my response edifying.
May the One God, YHVH, bless you and guide your life through Jesus Christ, our reigning King, Lord and Saviour, Amen.
Hi JA
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 10 2010,17:38) - Do you believe there are three spoken of in the scriptures having the same name as Matt 28:19 declares?
Quote (JustAskin @ April 10 2010,20:00)
WJ, I agree that there are three mentioned in that scripture verse…
Good! Then you agree that a Trinity is spoken of in the Bible though you may not see it the way we do, there are three that are “One” at least in unity of purpose, right?Quote (JustAskin @ April 10 2010,20:00)
and, at superficial reading, appears structurally to be alluding to one name for all three.
There is nothing superficial about it, it is a singular noun for the three that Jesus told his followers to baptize in using that name.Quote (JustAskin @ April 10 2010,20:00) However, digging a little deeper reveals a number of anomalies: 1) The verse is structurally tortuous as nowhere in Scriptures is there a mention of 'the name of the Holy Spirit'
It is torturous to you because you do not believe the Holy Spirit is a person with a name.Quote (JustAskin @ April 10 2010,20:00)
2) No Disciple or Apostle ever baptised 'in the name of the Holy Spirit' but instead baptised 'in the name of Jesus' and they, themselves, and Jesus, Himself, were the only ones baptised 'WITH the Holy Spirit' according to the Scriptures.
First of all, according to Matt 28:18 and Eph 1:21 Jesus has all authority and power and it was no surprise that his followers Baptized in his name, for they understood that his name represented both the Father and the Spirit for all the fullness of Deity resides in him, (Col 1:19 – Col 2:9). The singular name represented the “authority and power” that was in Jesus, so when they baptized in Jesus name they were baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit for they are one! Jesus was/is the baptizer in the Holy Spirit and fire. That of itself should give the ATs reservation, for the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God is subservient to Jesus! (John 16:12-15 – John 15:26 – John 16:7 – Matt 3:11)Quote (JustAskin @ April 10 2010,20:00)
3) No Disciple or Apostle baptised 'in the name of the Father' but only 'in the name Jesus' according to the Scriptures.
True, and that should also raise your eyebrows as to why they didn't baptise in the name of the Father, seeing that Jesus did everything in the Fathers name, but now he says it is in the name (or authority and power) of the three that they are to baptize in. We know what name has all authority and power, don’t we?Quote (JustAskin @ April 10 2010,20:00)
4) Why does the verse not just say '…in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit'? Why the 'of'…alludes to personal possession, maybe?
One thing is for sure, Jesus possesses all things at this time! Remember, One name, with the definite article for each person!Quote (JustAskin @ April 10 2010,20:00) So, what to make of the verse… Well, consider another usage of the term 'In the name of'. It can also mean 'in the power of' or 'by the authority of'
Consider these uses:
'Stop, in the name of the law'
'In the name of justice, it's a petty crime. Dont send him down'What is the 'name' of the law?
What is the 'name' of justice?It is clear that 'in the name of' means 'by the authority of', 'by the power of'
I agree except unlike your example we have a name which is higher than any other name, both in heaven and in earth and under the earth. That name is Jesus! (Phil 2:9-11)Quote (JustAskin @ April 10 2010,20:00)
So, plug this valid synonym into Matthew 28:19:
'…baptise them in the power of the father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit'Here, now, the verse is structurally sound and unequivocal.
Except I might add that it would be in the “authority” and power of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit! There is no other name under heaven whereby men must be saved. (Acts 4:12) Everything in the NT Church is done in the authority and the power or name, Jesus!Quote (JustAskin @ April 10 2010,20:00)
So, WJ, Matthew 28:19 is not claiming that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit have the same name in which baptism should be carried out.
This is where you lose me. For if the name also means authority and power and everything is done now in Jesus name because all fullness of Deity resides in him, (Col 1:19 – Col 2:9), then why wouldn’t that include the Father and the Spirit? Are you saying the Father and the Holy Spirit have no “authority and power”? did the apostles disobey Jesus command?Quote (JustAskin @ April 10 2010,20:00)
It means that baptism should ve carried out in/with the power and/or authority of all three: The Father, His Holy Spirit and His Son.
OK, but that seems to disagree with your previous statement since we agree that the “One name” also means “Authority and Power” and we know the name of the one who has it all, Jesus, then it is in that name that the commission was carried out. So the authority and power (name) of the Son is also the authority and power (name) of the Father and the Holy Spirit, right?Quote (JustAskin @ April 10 2010,20:00)
Are they One in Spirit, most assuredly not.
So how many Spirits have you received?Quote (JustAskin @ April 10 2010,20:00)
Jesus has his own Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is of the Father (this is clearly implied by it very title: Holy Spirit of God)
'God is [himself] a Spirit'.
True, but the scriptures say the Spirit of God is Jesus Spirit also.But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the SPIRIT OF GOD dwell in you. Now if any man have not the SPIRIT OF CHRIST, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Rom 8:9,10
“THE LORD IS THE SPIRIT“, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor 3:17
Quote (JustAskin @ April 10 2010,20:00)
He is the only person with an unconstrained Spirit (God does have a body, soul to contain His Spirit, has no need of a body so to do)
Jesus has been privileged to have full authority of His Fathers Spirit, along with his own, to enable him to bring about the reconcilliation of the Kingdom.
Sorry, I do not see where the scriptures tell us that we have received more than “ONE Spirit”, please explain. (1 Cor 12:13 – Eph 2:18 – Eph 4:4)Quote (JustAskin @ April 10 2010,20:00)
WJ, I hope you find my response edifying.May the One God, YHVH, bless you and guide your life through Jesus Christ, our reigning King, Lord and Saviour, Amen.
Thanks! And may the Holy Spirit guide you into all truth and enlighten your spiritual eyes through revelation that you may see and know more of who and what he is!WJ
Hi WJ,
Sorry for the delay, I didn't know that you had responded and was looking in the New Posts but must have missed it.Anyway, interesting is the diffence in thought and ideas and reference points. Also, the reading, understanding and desires toward the One that created us and desires us to Worship Him as His own creation, to delight in His achievement and declare to all things that YHVH, and YHVH alone, IS GOD.
Before getting back to your questions, I feel that we will be getting nowhere without some deeper understanding of each other's belief.
Throughtout the time I have been in this forum and watching your posts I notice that you do not ever declare what your belief in Trinitarianism is.
You do defend the Trinitarian creed, doctrine, and that makes you a very successful 'retentive' in the forum.
No sooner are you descovered to be wrong in one topis, you move to another and so on, new posters, same topic, same wrong answers, same doctrine. I have saud that there is nothing that you have learnt over the 30 years that is different from your first day. Where you a Scholar on your first day? Even Jesus learnt things in the Temple and throughout his life on earth.
A God that learns, now there is a strange thing?Ok, that was just a kickback for the opener you posted. You pre-loaded the argument from the start by denigrading people who do not believe the doctrine of the Abomination.
Ok, so a line of balance is drawn under that.
————————————————————Again, before moving on to searching our beliefs, please indulge me on these two questions from your previous post:
What IS the Name of the Holy Spirit?
The verse says 'in the name of the father, and of the son, and of the Holy Spirit' and you say that that [One] name is 'Jesus'.
If, then, Jesus is being Given All Power and Authourity, how then is he God, God Almighty? as Trinitarians say.He that is given(Holy Spirit) or is given to (Jesu), can he be mightier than He (God Almighty) that gives him or gives to him? (Notice, please, 'in him, the fullnes of the Deity (God Almighty) resides. God's Holy Spirit is in Jesus – Without measure. God's Spirit is in him, the Holy Spirit is in Him, God's Power and Authourity us in him – Without measure, God's 'Seal' is in his hands (Pharoah's Seal was in Joseph's Hands))
If Joseph is Pharoah because he has Pharoah's seal, can he make love to Pharoah's wife? Or enter his Hareem? Or even depose The Pharoah?
Sorry, those three questions are not three questions but One question…asked in three different ways!(Talking of Seals or 'Signet Rings', off topic but fits into above, have you read The Book of Esther. Fascinating what Haman, the jesus, could and could not do, even though he was 'Over all king Ahesareus' kingdom and how, when he sinned, the King was immediately able to take back his Seal of office but could not remove the evil deed done in his name because to do so would be to say the king made a mistake. What I have Spoken, So shall it be!)
WJ,
I am answering one of your questions out of sequence here as I opened my bible at that verse and, without realising it, found myself making notes on thatt very question.It is the start of our new financial year and there are many new changes in my work objectives and team environment meaning less time in this forum, as you may have noticed (Not avoiding you.
By the way, the posts I make elsewhere are 'off the top of my head, from my 'Head'… and are written mostly from my Mobile phone, hence spelling errors and sometimes quirky paragraphs layout and misuse of speech and quote marks and more noticeable, lack of humungus QUOTES of other posters Humungus QUOTES…which are not even read… 'Wazat awl abart, oi asks ya?')Well, to the verse.
Romans 8:9.
Quote But you are not in the flesh but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit [of God] dwells in you (And if God the Father's Holy Spirit is in you then you are His, the Father's, you are His Son (vs:14).)
Now, if [you do not have] the Spirit of Christ [in you], [you are not his, either](but if you have the Spirit of Christ in you then you are His, Jesus, and you are His Brother, heir to the inheritance – verse 17: '…heirs of God AND joint heirs WITH Christ,…')By the way, verse 16, 'The [Holy] Spirit him/itself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God', means: 'Having the Holy Spirit is a testiment [in itself], a witness [in itself], to being a son of God.'
WJ,
What was your question relating to the number of Spirits?: 'Sorry, I don't see where Scriptures tell us that we receive more than one spirit'.
You were reading the very verse itself.
Verse 10: 'And if [the Spirit of] Christ is in you, the body is dead to sin but [the spirit lives] because of righteousness'
The Spirit Of God (the Holy Spirit)
The Spirit of Christ (the 'spirit of Life'?)For, how are we 'His', unless we have 'His' Spirit?
For the Spirit of Christ is embedded in the Spirit of God.
One cannot, in truth, have one Spirit without the other.
To deny the Spirit of Christ is to deny the Spirit of God. To deny the Spirit of God is to deny the Spirit of Jesus.WJ, please enlighten me as to what is you do not understand from that which is unequivocal.
Hi JA
Quote (JustAskin @ April 14 2010,03:32)
Hi WJ,
Sorry for the delay, I didn't know that you had responded and was looking in the New Posts but must have missed it.Anyway, interesting is the diffence in thought and ideas and reference points. Also, the reading, understanding and desires toward the One that created us and desires us to Worship Him as His own creation, to delight in His achievement and declare to all things that YHVH, and YHVH alone, IS GOD.
Before getting back to your questions, I feel that we will be getting nowhere without some deeper understanding of each other's belief.
Throughtout the time I have been in this forum and watching your posts I notice that you do not ever declare what your belief in Trinitarianism is.
You do defend the Trinitarian creed, doctrine, and that makes you a very successful 'retentive' in the forum.
No sooner are you descovered to be wrong in one topis, you move to another and so on, new posters, same topic, same wrong answers, same doctrine. I have saud that there is nothing that you have learnt over the 30 years that is different from your first day. Where you a Scholar on your first day? Even Jesus learnt things in the Temple and throughout his life on earth.
A God that learns, now there is a strange thing?Ok, that was just a kickback for the opener you posted. You pre-loaded the argument from the start by denigrading people who do not believe the doctrine of the Abomination.
Ok, so a line of balance is drawn under that.
Everyone has their own opinions.
Quote (JustAskin @ April 14 2010,03:32)
Again, before moving on to searching our beliefs, please indulge me on these two questions from your previous post:What IS the Name of the Holy Spirit?
Apparently, you were not listening because I said “since we agree that the “One name” also means “Authority and Power” and we know the name of the one who has it all, Jesus, then it is in that name that the commission was carried out. So the authority and power (name) of the Son is also the authority and power (name) of the Father and the Holy Spirit, right?”If you didn’t agree then why didn’t you address the point? In fact you didn’t address any of the points that I can see. So now the question to you is “what is the name of the Father” and why didn’t Jesus speak his name not even once in scriptures?
Quote (JustAskin @ April 14 2010,03:32) The verse says 'in the name of the father, and of the son, and of the Holy Spirit' and you say that that [One] name is 'Jesus'.
Do you have any other explanation for the singular name that the Apostles were to baptize into, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit has that one name? Did the Apostles obey his command or not? You your self agreed that the name could mean power and authority…Quote (JustAskin @ April 10 2010,20:00) It can also mean 'in the power of' or 'by the authority of'
I agree, and since Jesus has “all power and authority” and it is his name that everything is done in the NT church and it is in his name that all authority and power is subject to, then when the Apostles baptized in the name of Jesus they were baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. This is one reason why Trinitarians believe in the co-equal nature of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit because Jesus made no distinction in Matt 28:19 in their equal authority did he? The three definite articles is proof of the three and the singular name is proof that they are equally “One”. Hebrew names depicted nature, so it also could be understood that they baptized in the authority and nature of the three.Quote (JustAskin @ April 14 2010,03:32)
If, then, Jesus is being Given All Power and Authourity, how then is he God, God Almighty? as Trinitarians say.
First of all your statement is a half truth because the scriptures do not say “Jesus is BEING GIVEN All Power and Authority”. He has all authority and power. So the question is how can he have all authority and power and at least not be “a god”? Since believing Jesus is “a god” would be Henotheistic or Polytheistic and an obvious violation of the Shema then Trinitarians believe he is God in nature just as the Father is God. The Trinitarian view is seen in the whole council of God by taking all scriptural data into account.Quote (JustAskin @ April 14 2010,03:32) He that is given(Holy Spirit) or is given to (Jesu), can he be mightier than He (God Almighty) that gives him or gives to him? (Notice, please, 'in him, the fullnes of the Deity (God Almighty) resides. God's Holy Spirit is in Jesus – Without measure. God's Spirit is in him, the Holy Spirit is in Him, God's Power and Authourity us in him – Without measure, God's 'Seal' is in his hands (Pharoah's Seal was in Joseph's Hands))
Yes and the Holy Spirit is in the Father without measure is it not? The fullness of deity resides in Jesus in “bodily” form for it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell (Col 1:19 – Col 2:9), yet it is also true to say that the fullness of deity is in the Father because Jesus is also in the Father. So if Jesus dwelling in the Father doesn’t translate to the Father is not God, then the Father dwelling in Jesus does not translate to Jesus not being God. This is just another one of those strawman arguments being burnt to the ground.Paul’s statement in Col 2:9, 10 is in fact a declaration of the Divine nature of Jesus that is without limitation.
Quote (JustAskin @ April 14 2010,03:32)
Joseph is Pharoah because he has Pharoah's seal, can he make love to Pharoah's wife? Or enter his Hareem? Or even depose The Pharoah?
Sorry, those three questions are not three questions but One question…asked in three different ways!
Pharaoh gave Joseph all authority to rule over all of Egypt and what the Pharaoh possessed, but he reserved the throne for himself. Jesus not only possesses all things and has the ability to administer it as he wills but Jesus also sits in the throne of God ruling as God. So your analogy falls short in comparison to a Father, S
on relationship. Joseph was never in line to be the Pharaoh.Quote (JustAskin @ April 14 2010,03:32) (Talking of Seals or 'Signet Rings', off topic but fits into above, have you read The Book of Esther. Fascinating what Haman, the jesus, could and could not do, even though he was 'Over all king Ahesareus' kingdom and how, when he sinned, the King was immediately able to take back his Seal of office but could not remove the evil deed done in his name because to do so would be to say the king made a mistake. What I have Spoken, So shall it be!)
Again your example falls short because Haman was not in the bloodline to be the King and sit in the throne as judge and jury was he?Jesus has been given “ALL Judgment” to judge as he wills and reward to everyman as he sees fit because it all belongs to him, for all things were created by him and for him. Col 1:16
And because of this unlike the examples above he was to be given the same Honor that is given to the Father as God.
For the Father judgeth no man, “but hath committed all judgment unto the Son”: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. John 5:22, 23
WJ
Hi JA
Quote (JustAskin @ April 17 2010,05:35) WJ,
I am answering one of your questions out of sequence here as I opened my bible at that verse and, without realising it, found myself making notes on thatt very question.
What verse?Quote (JustAskin @ April 17 2010,05:35)
It is the start of our new financial year and there are many new changes in my work objectives and team environment meaning less time in this forum, as you may have noticed (Not avoiding you.
Don’t worry, I won’t throw lame accusations at you and call you a liar.Quote (JustAskin @ April 17 2010,05:35) By the way, the posts I make elsewhere are 'off the top of my head, from my 'Head'… and are written mostly from my Mobile phone, hence spelling errors and sometimes quirky paragraphs layout and misuse of speech and quote marks and more noticeable, lack of humungus QUOTES of other posters Humungus QUOTES…which are not even read… 'Wazat awl abart, oi asks ya?')
Okay, thanks for the info!Quote (JustAskin @ April 17 2010,05:35) Well, to the verse. Romans 8:9. But you are not in the flesh but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit [of God] dwells in you (And if God the Father's Holy Spirit is in you then you are His, the Father's, you are His Son (vs:14).)
Now, if [you do not have] the Spirit of Christ [in you], [you are not his, either](but if you have the Spirit of Christ in you then you are His, Jesus, and you are His Brother, heir to the inheritance – verse 17: '…heirs of God AND joint heirs WITH Christ,…')
Oh that verse.Quote (JustAskin @ April 17 2010,05:35) By the way, verse 16, 'The [Holy] Spirit him/itself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God', means: 'Having the Holy Spirit is a testiment [in itself], a witness [in itself], to being a son of God.'
True, and in fact it is the Spirit of the Son that is in us crying “Abba Father” (Gal 4:6). How do you explain this? Is a mere man living inside of you? In these scriptures is revealed the “omnipresent” nature of Jesus, an attribute that only God has.Quote (JustAskin @ April 17 2010,05:35) WJ, What was your question relating to the number of Spirits?: 'Sorry, I don't see where Scriptures tell us that we receive more than one spirit'.
Exactly! Now explain to me how there are three (Matt 28:19 – John 14:16) dwelling within you as One Spirit? 1 Cor 12:13 – Eph 2:18 – Eph 4:4 – John 14:7 – 1 Cor 3:16 – 2 Cor 6:16 – Phil 1:19 – Rom 8:9, 10 – 2 Cor 13:5Quote (JustAskin @ April 17 2010,05:35) You were reading the very verse itself. Verse 10: 'And if [the Spirit of] Christ is in you, the body is dead to sin but [the spirit lives] because of righteousness'
The Spirit Of God (the Holy Spirit)
The Spirit of Christ (the 'spirit of Life'?)
Nice try, but isn’t the Spirit of God also the Spirit of life? Your explanation does not solve the puzzle for you of how the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit lives in you (see the verses above) by One Spirit. This is what I am talking about when I say Trinitarians take all Biblical data into account.Quote (JustAskin @ April 17 2010,05:35) For, how are we 'His', unless we have 'His' Spirit?
For the Spirit of Christ is embedded in the Spirit of God.
Meaning there would be “2” spirits right? Where is there a scripture for this. Paul makes no distinction between the Spirit of God and Jesus in Rom 8:9, 10.Quote (JustAskin @ April 17 2010,05:35) One cannot, in truth, have one Spirit without the other.
Your implication is there is more than “One Spirit” yet the scriptures tell us there is only one Spirit that we have been made to drink of. 1 Cor 12:13Quote (JustAskin @ April 17 2010,05:35) To deny the Spirit of Christ is to deny the Spirit of God. To deny the Spirit of God is to deny the Spirit of Jesus.
True, that is because the Spirit of Jesus is the Spirit of God.”NOW THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT”: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor 3:17
Quote (JustAskin @ April 17 2010,05:35) WJ, please enlighten me as to what is you do not understand from that which is unequivocal.
I just did. There are three persons living in us by One Spirit.- Does the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit live in you or not JA?
- Is the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit “ONE”?
You say you have the Spirit of God and hear from him. Please explain?
WJ
WJ,
I think I am getting confused over several issues which are preventing me from moving forward in this debate.
I was thinking that I was understanding the scriptures but something is making me feel uneasy.
perhaps with your knowledge and ability you can help me before we move forward.
My problems are these:
1) I thought that the Holy Spirit of God Was/Is (New word: WIS) “The Holy Spirit of God”
But you say it is a separate person who is also God
But You/We don't Worship it as the Scriptures says “We Must Worship God and only to Him do sacred service”
So, Does God have His own Spirit?2) I thought Jesus was a Man, who's heavenly spirit was put into a fleshly body at his birth?
But you say that he is God who then died for the sins of all mankind
But the Scriptures say that only a sinless Man could die for the remission of the sins of mankind3) Throughout the synoptic gospels (Especially John, ok, liberties…, Jesus says that everything he did and said was what his Father told him to say and showed him to do and the Power and Authority in which he did ALL things was from his father.
But you say that Jesus IS God
But, if Jesus IS God, how does he need someone to teach him things and show him things and give him things, especially Power and authority, if he is God. Surely God has all those things already, that's why he would be God, wouldn't he?4) You say that God and Jesus are co-equal Gods. But Jesus is a Lower in Rank co-equal God. A lower in rank co-equal god who can also die – i can't get it into my head that a God can die?
5) Jesus is raised from the dead by God and set on His (God's) throne (in a position of all power and authority) and because of this he is God
But I thought he was already God before he was PUT in the position on the throne acting as God because he [temporarily] holds all power and authority — Oh yeah, All Power and Authority over Mankind and the rest of God's creation EXCEPT THE ONE WHO GAVE HIM [temporarily] ALL POWER AND AUTHORITY6) You say Jesus is God because God is IN Him
But Jesus also says that We are to be In him also, both God and Jesus ALSO…so, umm, Are we also God?7) Jesus is to be ETERNAL HEIR to the Kingdom of God – But he is God, you said.
And We, too, are to be Heirs WITH Jesus, the Scriptures say
How is Jesus co-equal if he is only an HEIR – is an HEIR equal to a KING (Is a QUEEN equal to Her KING)
{
Why is a Queen called a “Queen” when there is a King on the throne but a King called a “Consort” when there is a Queen on the throne?
Does “Queen” suggest some sort of subordinate position against a “King”?
If the Wife of King is subordinate to the King then what of the Son of the king – the Heir – is the Heir superior to the Queen?
}
How is Jesus God but yet only Heir to the kingdom of God and also WE are Also to be God – so who are we going to be God over if we are all God?WJ,
Do you see why I am confused and disturbed because If I believe what you are saying then I am completely lost.
I cannot find a foundation to cement your doctrine into.
Scripture says God is the body (The Church) – and Jesus, who IS God, is only the head of the Church, and we are the body, but we are also God so why aren't WE also the Church but only the Body.
Seems like this to me. sorry if it conflicts with your view but I cannot see it any other way:
God is complete – over ALL – contains All things – the Container of all things from whom ALL things come
Jesus is within God and has power and authority given to him from within God, the source of all such things so he cannot be God is he is complete – because there is one over him.
We are within God and within Jesus and have power and authority given to us from Jesus' allotment.Do you see why I am confused – WJ,: “This is Life, them taking in knowledge of you, THE ONLY TRUE GOD…” – this is what Jesus said about his father.
WJ, can you help me, Please.
Quote (JustAskin @ April 24 2010,17:02) Do you see why I am confused – WJ,: “This is Life, them taking in knowledge of you, THE ONLY TRUE GOD…” – this is what Jesus said about his father. WJ, can you help me, Please.
JAI will be happy to answer your questions and in fact we already have before but I think either you don't like the answers or you just don't remember.
I will give you the benifit of the doubt.
I will answer your questions to the best of my ablity and pray that you will sincerely consider my answers.
WJ
WJ,
Why did you ask me what the name of the Father is?
It is 'I AM', 'YHVH', 'Jehovah' according to different renderings.
As to why Jesus didn't say it even once, is not a question to AT's alone. The Jews knew his name but would only write it. Would not speak it in fear of blaspheming.
The word 'LORD' in all capitals as written in [unadulterated] Scriptures is a substitute word for the Tetragramatan which is rendered 'YHVH', which translates into English as 'I am'.So everytime someone says 'I am' they are saying that they are God, I take it that that is where this is going?
I asked you: What is the name of the Holy Spirit. You gave a response that I do not understand.
So, I AM, Just Asking, again:
The Father, who is God is called, named, Jehovah, 'I AM' with a qualifier of 'Almighty';
The only begotten Son of God is called, named, 'Jesus' with a qualifier of 'Christ';
The Spirit of God…has a qualifier of 'Holy', 'of Truth' but what is it's name?
(tip: Even angels have names.)Quote (JustAskin @ April 25 2010,02:19) WJ, Why did you ask me what the name of the Father is?
It is 'I AM', 'YHVH', 'Jehovah' according to different renderings.
As to why Jesus didn't say it even once, is not a question to AT's alone. The Jews knew his name but would only write it. Would not speak it in fear of blaspheming.
The word 'LORD' in all capitals as written in [unadulterated] Scriptures is a substitute word for the Tetragramatan which is rendered 'YHVH', which translates into English as 'I am'.So everytime someone says 'I am' they are saying that they are God, I take it that that is where this is going?
I asked you: What is the name of the Holy Spirit. You gave a response that I do not understand.
So, I AM, Just Asking, again:
The Father, who is God is called, named, Jehovah, 'I AM' with a qualifier of 'Almighty';
The only begotten Son of God is called, named, 'Jesus' with a qualifier of 'Christ';
The Spirit of God…has a qualifier of 'Holy', 'of Truth' but what is it's name?
(tip: Even angels have names.)
JAMy point to you is that Jesus nor the Jews or Apostles spoke the Fathers name, and as you have said the name was lost and all we have is the Hebrew Tetragammation.
So in other words no one knows except Jesus and those in heaven what the exact pronunciation of the Fathers name is and Jesus never spoke his name once in the scriptures did he?
There is “One name” under heaven now whereby men must be saved, and that is Jesus.
So my point is just because you do not know the name of the Holy Spirit does not mean he doesn't have one or that he is not God, and infact according to Matt 28:19 he does.
Therefore it would be building a straw man by saying because the Holy Spirit does not have a name therefore he could not be another person in the Trinity in Matt 28:19.
WJ
WJ,
I feel that there is some misunderstanding here.
God's name is not 'lost', it is 'YHVH' in Hebrew language. We interpret it from that language as 'Jehovah', 'Yahveh','Yehovah' and other possibilities as we know of 'Yah' and/or 'Jah' as a short name for 'God', mostly used in as part of a joyful exclamation, Praise Jah!; Yah, be praise!
What is lost is the exact pronunciation of God's name. And I think that is a shame that it has been deemed blasphemous to even speak an interpretation, a guess, at His name and speak it in our enlightened times, that we feel that God will be offended (after all,different languages speak names in different ways and I have not heard the iwners being offended. How is 'I AM' translated in French: 'Je suis', “Deus est le 'Je suis', l'un qui est le grande tout en tout”. Is God offended by being called 'Je Suis' and not 'I Am'?
You keep pointing this thing that Jesus didn't speak God's name almost accussatively at me. I say again, it is nothing to do with AT or not AT.
We do know that God has a name and we know what that name is: YHVH, I AM, Jehovah, Yehovah, Yahveh. 'This is my name from everlasting to everlasting','I am who I am', what a wonderful name, a name that encompasses everything, 'I am…everything that has every been and will every be' so therefore my name is 'I AM'.
What is the reference to Jesus to do with my question that you quote it here. The reference is certainly true but what does it add to the point?
We don't know the name of the Holy Spirit? Did Jesus not come to reveal the Father, God Almighty, but you say that 'all three' are parts of a united Godhead, who are all persons in their own right?
So each and every person has a name…except the Holy Spirit, but you say it does have a name.
Please name it.Does the spirit of Jesus have a name? What is it, or why not?
What is the name of the third person of your trinity?
How do you worship the Holy Spirit and not refer to it's name?
When I pray I say 'Father, Jehovah, ….. I thank you in the name of your son and heir, Jesus Christ, through whom I pray this prayer'
What do you say, please, as an illustration?
Quote (JustAskin @ April 25 2010,05:23) What is lost is the exact pronunciation of God's name.
JAThats exactly what I am saying to you. If we don't know the exact pronuciation of it then then we really don't have his name.
The fact that Jesus doesn't speak it is for good reason and that is because it is not important at least at this time.
The name whereby men are to be saved is Jesus, in the meantime we refer to the Father with many titles including Father, God, YHWH or whatever.
So we also refer to the Holy Spirit with titles like Counselor, Holy Spirit, Spirit of Truth, Spirit of God, etc.
But according to Matt 28:19 the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit equally have a name and at this time all authority and power is invested in that one name, Jesus.
So why is it important that we do not have a personal name of the Holy Spirit when the Fathers name is not known either, especially since the Spirit does not speak about himself but his ministry is to glorify the Father and Jesus and speak of them?
And how does this disqualify the Holy Spirit for being in every way ONE with the Father and Jesus in nature? (Remember the Hebrew names also depicted nature.)
The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit share the same name. There is absloultely no disharmony with the three, and all three share the same attributes of God, and that could not be possible unless they are in very natrue God!
WJ
WJ………………..!!!
Jehovah is a Proper-Name, not a Title.
Mighty God, I think this is Check Mate to me, a mere pawn!
Everything you have written comes straight out of the book of “The Defeated adversaries Handbook of excuses”
So sad, not even gracious in defeat – so sad. But ok, if that is your way – so sad, though, really.
Ok, Now what else ya wanna 'Hit Me' with?
Quote (JustAskin @ April 27 2010,09:34) WJ………………..!!! Jehovah is a Proper-Name, not a Title.
Mighty God, I think this is Check Mate to me, a mere pawn!
Everything you have written comes straight out of the book of “The Defeated adversaries Handbook of excuses”
So sad, not even gracious in defeat – so sad. But ok, if that is your way – so sad, though, really.
Ok, Now what else ya wanna 'Hit Me' with?
JAWhat is so sad is you cannot answer a question and then claim victory!
- Does the Holy Spirit have a name?
- If no how do you explain Matt 28:19?
I have given you a scriptural explanation and all you have done is a dance!
WJ
WJ,
Do you know why you can't defeat me? Because I am you?When you try to trick me, it is only yourself you are tricking.
Turning the question back to the questioner, mirroring your mirrorer.
WJ, what is the name of the Holy Spirit? What is the name of the third member of your Trinity?
God the Father's name is Jehovah.
The Servant, Heir, Son's name is Jesus.
The Holy Spirit's name? WJ?In any case, this debate is over.
You have not proved to be an opponent worthy of that which others spoke of you, Mighty God!
In fact, the fact that you cannot even acknowledge a defeat graciously…in light of your opening remarks concerning the rules of this debate, only serves to show why you have been running in a small circle for, over 30 years, is it?While the dust is settling on this debate, think in this:
What is the connection between the following:
Pharoah giving Joseph his Signet ring;
King Ahereseus giving Haman/Mordecai, his Seal;
God giving Jesus his Holy Spirit.(tip, all three receivers were Temporary HOLDERS of the 'Kings' authority and power, and therefore, in effect, Possessed the 'Spirit' of the OWNER, the 'King')
WJ,
Since your defeat was so simple and easy (not by me but by yourself – when you defeated yourself you released me from you) I will grant you to start another debate with me.
Any scripture topic of your choice (You picked one of my favourite last time so I had the edge but you weren't to know!)
My dearest regards (No sarcasm, meant)
I do not boast over you – but that the Holy Spirit was with me – How could I not express gratitude to God and Jesus and respect my defeated adversary, the adversary who,in fact, is simply mislead, not malicious (?) full intent but like a baby bear trying, with futile swishing of it's underdeveloped arm of power, to protect it's fallen parent, like a trinitarian trying to protect the trinity doctrine.
“Come out of her, my children, lest you share in her iniquities”
“And the [good] sheep always heeds the voice of the [good] Shepherd”Quote (JustAskin @ April 28 2010,17:24) WJ, Since your defeat was so simple and easy (not by me but by yourself – when you defeated yourself you released me from you) I will grant you to start another debate with me.
Any scripture topic of your choice (You picked one of my favourite last time so I had the edge but you weren't to know!)
My dearest regards (No sarcasm, meant)
I do not boast over you – but that the Holy Spirit was with me – How could I not express gratitude to God and Jesus and respect my defeated adversary, the adversary who,in fact, is simply mislead, not malicious (?) full intent but like a baby bear trying, with futile swishing of it's underdeveloped arm of power, to protect it's fallen parent, like a trinitarian trying to protect the trinity doctrine.
“Come out of her, my children, lest you share in her iniquities”
“And the [good] sheep always heeds the voice of the [good] Shepherd”
JAMan grow up and get over yourself. You speak poisness words with a forked tongue. And you claim you have the Holy Spirit?
I question you even know who God is. I am not conceding to the debate. You are claiming victory and you have not proven anything. You can't even answer one question that I gave you and then you challenge me to another debate.
I borrowed this one from Jack to show how you are acting!
So stop with all your childish bully talking and let me respond.
You have not defeated anything, when I feel like it I will respond fully to your lame claims.
A debate is not over untill one party concedes. You want to quit? I understand why you are looking for an out. But don't act like I have conceded anything.
I thought we would have a mature debate with dialogue where we respond to each others points, and where there is give and take on the questions, but it has been all me and most of what you have done is patronize and whine about not understanding and then creating diversions and a dance. It is evident for anyone to see.
Then you call for an end claiming victory!
Thats one for the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit!
WJ
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