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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 08 2008,08:25) One thing i Have noticed All who believe Salvation is a matter of their “FREE WILLS” seem to have the same attitude and that is most will be burned up in a literal fire, except them of course they are more then willing to makes an exception for themselves.
I don't appreciate this statement. One cannot be in the Kingdom without humility. Please do not judge others and assume that they are hostile to you because they do not agree with you.Quote (Shania @ Dec. 07 2008,22:21) Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 08 2008,08:03) Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
God Bless[/quote]
Yes, the fire is not quenched UNTIL CHANGE IS CREATED.[/quote]
Hmm… Don't you see that you have to add to scripture in order to explain your doctrine?Scripture is clear and the gospel is simple. You don't need to add anything to it.
Hi Shania,The worm and the fire consume the sinful flesh until all sin has been removed, your RIGHT it is simple. YHWH said He was longsuffering towards us not willing that anyone should perish, therefore it is the sinful flesh that is destroyed!
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 09 2008,09:34) Hi Shania, The worm and the fire consume the sinful flesh until all sin has been removed, your RIGHT it is simple. YHWH said He was longsuffering towards us not willing that anyone should perish, therefore it is the sinful flesh that is destroyed!
“until all sin has been removed”It doesn't say that.
“YHWH said He was longsuffering towards us not willing that anyone should perish”
This is true. Why do you think the Messiah, the pattern son had to set aside His own will? You have to do this in order for salvation.
Luke 22:41-42
42 “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will , but yours be done.”
NIVMatt 7:21
21 “Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
NIVMatt 12:50-13:1
50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”NIV
1 John 2:17
17 The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.
NIVThe point of this is that YHWH's ways are not our ways. He does not want man to perish and He is incredibly longsuffering, giving chance after chance. He offers us life and death, but says “Choose life.” We have to make that choice and we have to do it by laying down our will and being conformed to Him.
“therefore it is the sinful flesh that is destroyed!”
The problem with this statement is that it is based on your reasonings, not scripture. There are many scriptures that contradict your ideas but you reason them away with philosophy and tell us what they “really mean.” But you do this by tweaking and misinterpreting other scriptures that most people find very clear.
Quote (Shania @ Dec. 07 2008,22:59) Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 09 2008,09:34) Hi Shania, The worm and the fire consume the sinful flesh until all sin has been removed, your RIGHT it is simple. YHWH said He was longsuffering towards us not willing that anyone should perish, therefore it is the sinful flesh that is destroyed!
“until all sin has been removed”It doesn't say that.
“YHWH said He was longsuffering towards us not willing that anyone should perish”
This is true. Why do you think the Messiah, the pattern son had to set aside His own will? You have to do this in order for salvation.
Luke 22:41-42
42 “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will , but yours be done.”
NIVMatt 7:21
21 “Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
NIVMatt 12:50-13:1
50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”NIV
1 John 2:17
17 The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.
NIVThe point of this is that YHWH's ways are not our ways. He does not want man to perish and He is incredibly longsuffering, giving chance after chance. He offers us life and death, but says “Choose life.” We have to make that choice and we have to do it by laying down our will and being conformed to Him.
“therefore it is the sinful flesh that is destroyed!”
The problem with this statement is that it is based on your reasonings, not scripture. There are many scriptures that contradict your ideas but you reason them away with philosophy and tell us what they “really mean.” But you do this by tweaking and misinterpreting other scriptures that most people find very clear.
Hi Shania,You don't believe that God has the power to draw men into following His Will? God will lead ALL men into the right choice. This is clearly His desire, and that which YHWH desires will come forth. Who are you to put man's will above God's that He cannot overpower us. Who are you to say that a man's wickedness is stronger then YHWH's righteousness that He cannot break a sinner into repentance?
Shania how exactly is death and hades literally cast into fire?
Is not the lake of fire symbolic for something?
In the Old and New Testament God is called a consuming fire, and in the OT it is said that He brings people through the fire to REFINE them. The fire being symbolic of burning away their sinful ways, not them.
Zec 13:9 I will bring the one-third through the fire, Will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them. I will say, 'This is My people'; And each one will say, 'The Lord is my God.' “
Why is it said at the end of Revelation 22, not that the people have been destroyed, but that they are OUTSIDE the gates?
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
I would imagine being outside the city gates looking in at the righteous and their lives that they would begin to feel shame and guilt.
YLT Daniel 12:2 `And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches — to abhorrence age-during.
You have been indoctrinated to believe that the lake of fire is a place where PEOPLE are destroyed, but it is a place where people are disciplined and refined!
Jodi,
Agree that the “lake of fire” which is the second death is a place that the works of the devil are destroyed – it was made for the devil and his angels (messengers) That is what Jesus said and that is what he meant – it is for the destruction of the flesh which is a work of the devil.
1 Cor 3:13-13
1Cr 3:13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Cr 3:14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Cr 3:15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.If you look at Rev 20:13-15
Rev 20:13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.death and hades are thrown into the fire, If you look at the word that has been translated as whosover in the next verse:-
G1536
εἴ τις
ei tis
i tis
From G1487 and G5100; if any: – he that, if a (-ny) man (‘s thing, from any, ought), whether any, whosoever.it can mean whosoever but only if the context is talking about the person. The word is used referring to any (thing) or (man)
Thank you Meerkat, these are good scriptures.
1 Corinthians 3:11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
To all………The lake of fire is Symbolic for (intense Judgments) it is not a literal fire. Look at the first paragraph of Revelations, the word signified it literally means (he symbolized it). Jesus said for you (ALL) shall be salted with Fire, Fire is used because it is symbolic of purification, Gold, Silver, and other precious metals are purified in Fire, and scripture uses this symbolically for purifying and cleansing us from sins. God is call a consuming Fire , None of this should be taken literal but spiritually. In judgments God purifies us and those who are not found worthy to be in the Kingdom will be cast into this intense Judgments (lake of fire) in which God Himself will burn away their sins and purify them (YET AS THROUGH FIRE) meaning (intense judgments), just as Paul said.
We who are being chosen now are going through intense Judgments (NOW), for Judgment begins at the House of GOD, Peter said as concerning this (Fiery TRIAL) which has tried you as if some strange thing has happened unto you. Again it says God chastises us and (SCOURGES EVERY SON HE EXCEPTS).
God the Father is very capable of cleansing any one through His (FIRE) intense judgments. ” Isa 1:18……….> Come now, and let us (REASON) together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; they shall be as wool. Most people are taught a fear religion of being thrown into a literal fire when in fact its being cast into intense Judgment and it is the best thing for them to experience because it will purge them of sin.
The apostatized Church used the Lake of Fire in a literal sense to cause Fear in people which intern caused the people to be subject the Churches teachings, Fear is a powerful controller of the CARNAL mind, GOD even used it, EX 19:20 proves this. Fear can control people but it can (NEVER) change the Heart,”for (NOTHING) is perfected in FEAR. Remember you have (NOT) come unto that Mountain to fear and Trimble as (THEY) did, and again “for we have (NOT) received the Spirit of (FEAR), but of POWER and of a SOUND MIND.
peace and love to you all……………gene
PS,……. Shania if my post offended you forgive me it was not my intent to…….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 08 2008,10:03) To all………The lake of fire is Symbolic for (intense Judgments) it is not a literal fire. Look at the first paragraph of Revelations, the word signified it literally means (he symbolized it). Jesus said for you (ALL) shall be salted with Fire, Fire is used because it is symbolic of purification, Gold, Silver, and other precious metals are purified in Fire, and scripture uses this symbolically for purifying and cleansing us from sins. God is call a consuming Fire , None of this should be taken literal but spiritually. In judgments God purifies us and those who are not found worthy to be in the Kingdom will be cast into this intense Judgments (lake of fire) in which God Himself will burn away their sins and purify them (YET AS THROUGH FIRE) meaning (intense judgments), just as Paul said. We who are being chosen now are going through intense Judgments (NOW), for Judgment begins at the House of GOD, Peter said as concerning this (Fiery TRIAL) which has tried you as if some strange thing has happened unto you. Again it says God chastises us and (SCOURGES EVERY SON HE EXCEPTS).
God the Father is very capable of cleansing any one through His (FIRE) intense judgments. ” Isa 1:18……….> Come now, and let us (REASON) together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; they shall be as wool. Most people are taught a fear religion of being thrown into a literal fire when in fact its being cast into intense Judgment and it is the best thing for them to experience because it will purge them of sin.
The apostatized Church used the Lake of Fire in a literal sense to cause Fear in people which intern caused the people to be subject the Churches teachings, Fear is a powerful controller of the CARNAL mind, GOD even used it, EX 19:20 proves this. Fear can control people but it can (NEVER) change the Heart,”for (NOTHING) is perfected in FEAR. Remember you have (NOT) come unto that Mountain to fear and Trimble as (THEY) did, and again “for we have (NOT) received the Spirit of (FEAR), but of POWER and of a SOUND MIND.
peace and love to you all……………gene
PS,……. Shania if my post offended you forgive me it was not my intent to…….gene
Right on Gene, excellent post!Hi ,
Rev 21
8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 08 2008,10:40) Hi ,
Rev 21
8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Yes, it is the death of ALL sinful flesh.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 08 2008,11:03) HI JOdi,
So liars and whoremongers are not liars and whoremongers but only their bodies??
Did you fail to read Gene's last post. They go into the lake of fire as liars, murderers etc.., and are refined. What dies is their sinful flesh,their sinful ways.Hi Jodi,
Gene has his own unique ideas but if you are right then a chapter or two of Revelation must be missing.
It seems there is no way back from the lake of fire for the liars and whoremongers.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 08 2008,11:41) Hi Jodi,
Gene has his own unique ideas but if you are right then a chapter or two of Revelation must be missing.
It seems there is no way back from the lake of fire for the liars and whoremongers.
Yes, your right, liars and whoremongers don't come out of the Lake of fire, however purified people do.Hi Jodi,
Really?
You should not confuse the purification of the saints with the second death.Where does scripture show men, Satan, the false prophet, surviving the lake of fire?
Rev20
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 09 2008,07:31) Hi Jodi,
Really?
You should not confuse the purification of the saints with the second death.Where does scripture show men, Satan, the false prophet, surviving the lake of fire?
Rev20
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
NickThe “false prophet” is not a person it is a entity or system of false doctrine/teaching, death and hades are not people they are states of being (or not being) The things that are consumed by the “second death” is not the physcial body but all that is not of the Spirit of God. It is the adversity/adversary that is sent by God to try and purify. The “lake of fire” is prepared for the devil and his angels and that is why Jesus said to Peter “get behind me Satan, your mind is not on the things of God.
The “lake of fire” is not literal fire that burns people and physical things – it has to do the with desires/lusts/greed – the soul, the mind of the flesh which is emnity against the mind of the spirit.
The fire of Sodom and Gomorrah was a “type” it was physical – the antitype is not physical fire.
Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs [come] out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, [which] go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 19:20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 13:1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Rev 13:2And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.Rev 13:11And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.Dan 7:4The first [was] like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
Dan 7:5And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and [it had] three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
Dan 7:6After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
Dan 7:7After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it [was] diverse from all the beasts that [were] before it; and it had ten horns.
Dan 7:8I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn [were] eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Dan 7:9I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire.
Dan 7:10A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld [even] till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.Dan 7:13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.
Dan 7:15I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of [my] body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
Dan 7:16I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
Dan 7:17These great beasts, which are four, [are] four kings, [which] shall arise out of the earth.
Dan 7:18But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
Dan 7:19Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth [were of] iron, and his nails [of] brass; [which] devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
Dan 7:20And of the ten horns that [were] in his head, and [of] the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even [of] that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look [was] more stout than his fellows.
Dan 7:21I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Dan 7:23Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24And the ten horns out of this kingdom [are] ten kings [that] shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy [it] unto the end.
Dan 7:27And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.Beasts are kingdoms not literal beasts
The second beast (kingdom) is the false prophet
Hi MK,
Kingdoms or kings?Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, [are] four kings, [which] shall arise out of the earth.
Hi MK,
So beasts can be kings or the kingdoms that spring from them.Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
rev20
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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