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To all! If anybody cannot go by Scriptures given, where else would you get the truth. To me that is saying something about that person. I don't want to call anybody any names, that would indeed be foolish. We should not go by our own way of thinking if we cannot go by Scripture.
According to Scripture Satan is a fallen Angel, you cannot go past that. If you do, you are going by your own imagination. And that is not wise to do.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Cindy @ June 11 2009,08:06) To all! If anybody cannot go by Scriptures given, where else would you get the truth. To me that is saying something about that person. I don't want to call anybody any names, that would indeed be foolish. We should not go by our own way of thinking if we cannot go by Scripture.
According to Scripture Satan is a fallen Angel, you cannot go past that. If you do, you are going by your own imagination. And that is not wise to do.
Peace and Love Irene
Irene I have heard you and Georg say that the word trinity does not exist in the bible, well, actually neither does the word fallen angel.Satan means adversary, not fallen angel. Gene and I go strictly by what the scriptures define the adversary as. The OT directly calls satan God's messengers, the OT directly calls men satan. Jesus directly tells us the adversary is to have in mind the things of men.
You posted a whole bunch of scriptures earlier from the King James concordance. None of those Irene ever mention anything about fallen angels, how could they the bible does not contain those two words together.
I have read several times all the scriptures containing the Hebrew word for adversary, not one time is the word translated satan, said to be a rebel spirit being. The adversary in the book of Job, prayed to God, listened to God, and obeyed God, just because he incited or motivated God to inflict Job, hardly makes him a rebel spirit. The work of infliction that the adversary in Job did, was said by Job, Job friends, the adversary, and God Himself to be coming through the Hand of God Himself. Rebel or fallen angels, don't do God's work, fallen angels don't bring forth the hand of God.
Irene if you could read through again the scriptures you posted, you will find that you don't actually ever see satan referred to as a fallen angel, it is your mind defining satan as such when your eyes pass over the word.
When the Hebrew word for adversary represents a word that can be used in different contexts, shouldn't we look at the context surrounding the word, to define who the adversary is?
Since we never see fallen angel written in the bible, by what authority do you have to then turn around and refer to the adversary as such?Once again let me say that in the OT a King is likened to a planet venus, which in Latin was called Lucifer, that King God made FALL. It was the KING that fell from heaven.
In the NT, in Revelation, the dragon is said to be kings, and it is those kings who fall from heaven.
Irene you said, “According to Scripture Satan is a fallen Angel, you cannot go past that. If you do, you are going by your own imagination.”
This is all just a little unbelievable to me, because according to scripture actually the truth is that the adversary is never said to be fallen angel…..so it would seem that you are the one going by your imagination.
When Jesus calls Peter satan for having in mind the things of men, and then I refer to satan as having in mind the things of men, then how exactly am I going by my own imagination?
Thanks for your posts Irene, peace and love to you too, Jodi
Hi Jodi,
The vipers served the serpent god of this world.
Satan has ruled in natural men since Adam submitted to him in the Garden.
Jesus came to set men free and bring them from the domain of darkness into the wonderful kingdom of lightJodi On page 6 I gave you a whole list of Scriptures that tells about Satan. Like I said before, if you want to believe something else, and ignore those Scriptures and teach otherwise, be my guests. I go by Scriptures which you want to ignore. You always tell us to go by Scriptures, but what about you?
In Rev. 12:9, 2 Cor. 11:14 He transforms himself into an Angel of Light. And his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness…..
IreneQuote (Cindy @ June 11 2009,10:29) Jodi On page 6 I gave you a whole list of Scriptures that tells about Satan. Like I said before, if you want to believe something else, and ignore those Scriptures and teach otherwise, be my guests. I go by Scriptures which you want to ignore. You always tell us to go by Scriptures, but what about you?
In Rev. 12:9, 2 Cor. 11:14 He transforms himself into an Angel of Light. And his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness…..
Irene
Irene did you bother to read my last post at all?Would you mind reading it slowly and thinking about what is being said, and then would you mind responding to what I have specifically said.
I'd certainly really appreciate that.
Thanks and peace to you, Jodi
Hi Jodi,
Jesus told the Pharisees their father was the devil.
Vipers and sons of vipers indeed.Mind you all natural men are in that condition and need the freedom Jesus brings.
Hi Irene,
maybe we should really just try and take things one step at a time.
Can you look up in the bible and find me a single scripture that contains the words together fallen angel in it?
Hi JOdi,
“The pigs killed themselves because once Jesus transferred the unclean spirit to them they went mentally crazy, and ran themselves off a cliff. “So you think this was a conscious decision by the pigs?
You say demons are from God.
There is no darkness in our God at all.
You are starting to sound like our taoist friendQuote (Cindy @ June 11 2009,10:29) Jodi On page 6 I gave you a whole list of Scriptures that tells about Satan. Like I said before, if you want to believe something else, and ignore those Scriptures and teach otherwise, be my guests. I go by Scriptures which you want to ignore. You always tell us to go by Scriptures, but what about you?
In Rev. 12:9, 2 Cor. 11:14 He transforms himself into an Angel of Light. And his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness…..
Irene
Revelation 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.Irene this scripture does not contain fallen angel, it contains a great dragon which is not said ever anywhere in the bible to represent a fallen angel, it is SPECIFICALLY if you go by the scriptures…said to represent KINGS, which are humans. Kings and their messengers are cast to earth. Revelation is symbolic, to be cast to earth is not literal. Irene you don't pick and choose at your convenience what is to be symbolic and what is to be literal, and then you don't add to scripture additional meanings to symbols that have already been defined for us.
2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.
Irene there does exist any where in the above scriptures the words fallen angel. For the adversary himself transforms himself into a messenger of light.
16 I say again, let no one think me a fool. If otherwise, at least receive me as a fool, that I also may boast a little. 17 What I speak, I speak not according to the Lord, but as it were, foolishly, in this confidence of boasting. 18 Seeing that many boast according to the flesh, I also will boast. 19 For you put up with fools gladly, since you yourselves are wise! 20 For you put up with it if one brings you into bondage, if one devours you, if one takes from you, if one exalts himself, if one strikes you on the face. 21 To our shame, I say that we were too weak for that! But in whatever anyone is bold–I speak foolishly–I am bold also.
22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? So am I. 23 Are they ministers of Christ?–I speak as a fool–I am more: in labors more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequently, in deaths often. 24 From the Jews five times I received forty stripes minus one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep; 26 in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 27 in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness– 28 besides the other things, what comes upon me daily: my deep concern for all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to stumble, and I do not burn with indignation? 30 If I must boast, I will boast in the things which concern my infirmity. 31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying. 32 In Damascus the governor, under Aretas the king, was guarding the city of the Damascenes with a garrison, desiring to arrest me; 33 but I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall, and escaped from his hands.
Irene Paul goes on and on about his peril, citing other human beings as being adversaries.
When Jesus called Peter a satan for having in mind the things of men, and I see Paul use the word satan, I believe I have scriptural authority to presume especially given the entire context of what Paul is speaking of, to refer to the adversary of which Paul speaks of as being a man who had in mind the things of men. Paul tells us time and time again that wickedness comes from letting the flesh rule over the mind. Thus referring man to having in mind the things of men, is accusing man that he is serving his flesh.
What scriptural authority do you have to define the adversary as a fallen angel, when that word doesn't even exist in the bible?
Hi Jodi,
Funny things that these KINGS take one third of the angels with them.
Jesus saw Satan falling from heaven[lk10]Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 11 2009,05:40) Quote (Gene @ June 10 2009,13:21) Jodi……….God has given you a ministry of bringing this out, don't let any discourage you , we are all held accountable to what GOD has revealed unto us, it is good for edification, to Saints, the true believers who have the Spirit of truth in them. They do see the logic and soundness of the scriptures you have posted and others Just aren't able to recieve it. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………………………….gene
Hi GeneWe realize that you and Jodi and GM think that you are the only ones around here with the Spirit of truth. How arrogant and foolish! IMO.
WJ
Aw, come on now bro…..You forgot to add yourself, Nick, Kathi, Georg and Irene – and me!!!
We all think we have the corner market on TRUTH. And interestingly enough, we all have different truths to share! Sure, we're open to other's ideas (but we're pretty much convinced already of our own beliefs).
Jodi is passionate about her subject, haven't we all been there? For me, it was the Trinity and the conception of Jesus. And there for a while, I couldn't talk about anything but preexistence. We all get in our grooves and want that intense verbal-volleyball. When someone shuts us down, it's frustrating, and we may not always act as Christ-like as we should.
But we've all been foolish in thinking we know it all on any given subject – right? So, let's cut each other a break, huh?
Patience, long-suffering, consideration, loving those who curse us…..all that good Christian stuff!
Love,
MandyQuote (Nick Hassan @ June 11 2009,12:03) Hi Jodi,
Funny things that these KINGS take one third of the angels with them.
Jesus saw Satan falling from heaven[lk10]
Like I said I go by what the scriptures say, which is that the dragon is directly said to represent kings. You don't think it is possible that a group of kings could have followers, and drag a third of them down with them?Did Hitler have followers, how about Stalin? Does Bin Laden have followers? Did Hitler and his men fall?
Just because the scriptures speak in symbolism that does not mean we should let our imaginations run wild and create our own understanding of them.
The bible says that the dragon represents KINGS, I'm going to stick with that.
Mandy I love you, and I think your fantastic.
A breath of fresh air, I say!
I listen to what you say, and I know I have things I need to work on. Thanks for always keepin it real sister.
Hope you've been doing well, Jodi
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 11 2009,15:57) Hi Jodi,
Is it right to allegorise what you do not accept as truth?
Hey Nick you seem to like to use that word a lot lately…allegorise. Would you mind defining it in your own words for me, and then give me an example of when or how I have done that with scripture?That would be helpful. Thanks!
Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 11 2009,15:45) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 11 2009,12:03) Hi Jodi,
Funny things that these KINGS take one third of the angels with them.
Jesus saw Satan falling from heaven[lk10]
Like I said I go by what the scriptures say, which is that the dragon is directly said to represent kings. You don't think it is possible that a group of kings could have followers, and drag a third of them down with them?Did Hitler have followers, how about Stalin? Does Bin Laden have followers? Did Hitler and his men fall?
Just because the scriptures speak in symbolism that does not mean we should let our imaginations run wild and create our own understanding of them.
The bible says that the dragon represents KINGS, I'm going to stick with that.
Hi Jodi:Looking at the following scriptures, I believe the dragon represents the Evil spirit dwelling within his angels or messengers rather than the kings.
Quote Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Nick Hassan @ June 11 2009,16:13) Hi Jodi,
So when the bible says angels it means followers.
Why not test this theory?
Nick, angel means messenger. You know that. Sometimes messengers do what they are told strictly because they are being paid, others do it because they are followers. Come on buddy, can't you apply anything to the real world?
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