John 6:62

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 04 2010,02:07)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 03 2010,15:31) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 03 2010,02:51) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 02 2010,04:48) I would like a DIRECT answer to the question of where you think Jesus was before, that he ascended back to. Mike ………….> Jesus was the same place you and I were (in the plan and will of GOD the FATHER).  Is that direct enough for you brother. Here is a similar question where was Cyrus before He existed on earth. Was it no in the Plan and Will of GOD? peace and love to you and yours Mike………………..gene Hi Gene, I just explained that to barley.  Do you think if Cyrus got resurrected, he would like to live out the rest of his existence as a “thought” in God's mind?   Come on guys, answer the question for real.  Do you really expect anyone to believe that Jesus was looking forward to going back to the previous glory and postition he had as a “thought in God's mind”?  No brain of his own……no thoughts…….no feelings…..no life mike Mike ………..> Again you have failed to answer the question put to you, WHERE WAS CYRUS BEFORE HE WAS EVER BORN. Please Be Specific with this brother. was He not in the mind and Will of GOD before he ever existed and was His glory not already foreordained and planned. Did He by some kind of fluke of nature chose to be King Cyrus as a result of a “FREE WILL”, or was he specifically brought into existence by God for a Specific Purpose. The same  applies for John the Baptist and Jesus also. peace and love……………………gene

Hi Gene,

Let's iron this out brother. I will answer YOUR question DIRECTLY. In return, I expect to not even hear from you again until you answer the one I've been asking you. Is that fair?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 04 2010,09:55)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 03 2010,15:31) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 03 2010,02:51) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 02 2010,04:48) I would like a DIRECT answer to the question of where you think Jesus was before, that he ascended back to. Mike ………….> Jesus was the same place you and I were (in the plan and will of GOD the FATHER).  Is that direct enough for you brother. Here is a similar question where was Cyrus before He existed on earth. Was it no in the Plan and Will of GOD? peace and love to you and yours Mike………………..gene Hi Gene, I just explained that to barley.  Do you think if Cyrus got resurrected, he would like to live out the rest of his existence as a “thought” in God's mind?   Come on guys, answer the question for real.  Do you really expect anyone to believe that Jesus was looking forward to going back to the previous glory and postition he had as a “thought in God's mind”?  No brain of his own……no thoughts…….no feelings…..no life mike Hi Mike: He said what if you see the Son of man ascending to where he was before, that is “heaven”.  That is all he said.  He did not say that he was returning to his former glory either, but he made reference to the glory that he was being given by God which God had foreseen from the beginning. Love in Christ, Marty

Hi Marty,

I just can't fathom the lengths to which people will go to keep their doctrine alive.

You answered correctly.  Heaven is where Jesus ascended to.  And heaven is “where he was before”.  Now, just follow it through with logical human thought.  Who is the “Son of Man”?  Was he not the real, live person Jesus Christ?

This real, live person said he would ascend to where he was before.  So, here is just one common sense question for you to ponder:

1.  The PERSON Jesus ascended to where the PERSON Jesus said he was before.  

What is there in the context that would make any sane person think that it wasn't the PERSON Jesus who was there before?  

Seriously, what exact words are you seeing in the text that cause you to form this opinion?

Marty, will you please answer my question directly?

I will address your misunderstanding about the glory Jesus returned to in the John 17:5 thread I am going to start soon.  But first, I just wanted to hear you, Gene and barley (since martian chickened out) explain how from the words of John 6:62, you come to the understanding that Jesus was saying he would ascend to where he was before AS A THOUGHT IN GOD'S MIND.  Because I've never read those words.

peace and love,
mike

mike

[GeneBalthrop]

Mike …………..ALL thing come forth from the (MIND) of GOD , do you believe this or not. Scripture say in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with GOD and the Word Was GOD , right, now ask yourself what is a WORD is it not the expression of the (MIND) . “And GOD (SAID) LET THERE BE, that means it all came from the mind of GOD. GOD and His mind are one and the same , just as you and your mind are one and the same. “SO A MAN THINKS SO HE IS”, I will add SO GOD THINKS SO HE IS ALSO. Mike (ALL) thing came from the mind of GOD. Does this answer you question?

peace and love brother……………………………….gene

[martian]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 04 2010,11:29)

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 04 2010,09:55) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 03 2010,15:31) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 03 2010,02:51) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 02 2010,04:48) I would like a DIRECT answer to the question of where you think Jesus was before, that he ascended back to. Mike ………….> Jesus was the same place you and I were (in the plan and will of GOD the FATHER).  Is that direct enough for you brother. Here is a similar question where was Cyrus before He existed on earth. Was it no in the Plan and Will of GOD? peace and love to you and yours Mike………………..gene Hi Gene, I just explained that to barley.  Do you think if Cyrus got resurrected, he would like to live out the rest of his existence as a “thought” in God's mind?   Come on guys, answer the question for real.  Do you really expect anyone to believe that Jesus was looking forward to going back to the previous glory and postition he had as a “thought in God's mind”?  No brain of his own……no thoughts…….no feelings…..no life mike Hi Mike: He said what if you see the Son of man ascending to where he was before, that is “heaven”.  That is all he said.  He did not say that he was returning to his former glory either, but he made reference to the glory that he was being given by God which God had foreseen from the beginning. Love in Christ, Marty Hi Marty, I just can't fathom the lengths to which people will go to keep their doctrine alive. You answered correctly.  Heaven is where Jesus ascended to.  And heaven is “where he was before”.  Now, just follow it through with logical human thought.  Who is the “Son of Man”?  Was he not the real, live person Jesus Christ? This real, live person said he would ascend to where he was before.  So, here is just one common sense question for you to ponder: 1.  The PERSON Jesus ascended to where the PERSON Jesus said he was before.   What is there in the context that would make any sane person think that it wasn't the PERSON Jesus who was there before?   Seriously, what exact words are you seeing in the text that cause you to form this opinion? Marty, will you please answer my question directly? I will address your misunderstanding about the glory Jesus returned to in the John 17:5 thread I am going to start soon.  But first, I just wanted to hear you, Gene and barley (since martian chickened out) explain how from the words of John 6:62, you come to the understanding that Jesus was saying he would ascend to where he was before AS A THOUGHT IN GOD'S MIND.  Because I've never read those words. peace and love, mike mike

Chicken out? From you? LOL
I simply saw no point in going on with someone that is obviously dishonest. I choose to not debate with someone from the IMM.
For those of you who do not remember IMM is Imitating Monkeys ministry. That is how Mike compares following Christ.

[martian]

Actually Mike,
I am very pleased that you are still foaming at the mouth here and spewing out your nonsense. You see forums are the dead end and the back end of Christianity. I admit that in the beginning I actually thought I might make an impact on the people on these boards but now I know that my time is much better off picking up dog poop in my yard. It is more functional and more profitable. Thee was also a time when it was somewhat entertaining, but that is fading too. I know that when I was housebound I used it as a crutch for an outlet to talk to someone and I suppose there are those that use it for the same reasons. Any that get on here to teach or think that it is a ministry are the saddest of all.
You see Mike as long as you are on here you can do not real harm to the body. You are not going to change anyones mind and you just spin your wheels. The only thing you have done is show your lack of character and honesty with God's plan as His Word. Since your doctrine negates any personal responsibility or deep bride relationship with Jesus I am sure you are quite insecure. You may boast a relationship with God but as per usual those that boast the most usually have the least. Perhaps you seek the Kodos of T8 and Irene to make you feel like a special man.
The very best I can do for you mike is pity you and the position you have yourself decided to stay in.

So have at it Mike. Relish your pittance of supposed victory. The day is coming when you will need to answer to your human Brother Jesus why you rejected his mission and denied him your brotherhood. (And do not waste your time asking me to prove what I have said because I have no need to repeat what I have already done.)
Go ahead call me a chicken or whatever you like. Ridicule from the likes of you is so small an electron microscope could not find it's purpose.
(_) this is my Joke Bin. Your proofs, your doctrine, Your character and your sad adhearence to the total Greek philosophical mish mash is now in there.
Enjoy your thumbnail kingdom.

[Arnold]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 05 2010,03:02)

Mike …………..ALL thing come forth from the (MIND) of GOD , do you believe this or not. Scripture say in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with GOD and the Word Was GOD , right, now ask yourself what is a WORD is it not the expression of the (MIND) . “And GOD (SAID) LET THERE BE, that means it all came from the mind of GOD. GOD and His mind are one and the same , just as you and your mind are one and the same. “SO A MAN THINKS SO HE IS”, I will add SO GOD THINKS SO HE IS ALSO. Mike (ALL) thing came from the mind of GOD. Does this answer you question? peace and love brother……………………………….gene

Gene, you are to much.  Not even knowing that The  Word of God is what became the Human Jesus….. I asked someone this before.

Rev 19:13   And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  

Rev 19:14   And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  

Rev 19:15   And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  

Rev 19:16   And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.  
These are clear Scriptures besides John 1:1 He was The Word of God and will come again as The Word of God….

Is there another person that fits that, or another Spirit Being that fits that? I don't think so….
I also want to add that in Hebrew 1:8 He is called God….
Peace Irene

[Arnold]

Quote (martian @ Aug. 05 2010,08:27)

Actually Mike, I am very pleased that you are still foaming at the mouth here and spewing out your nonsense. You see forums are the dead end and the back end of Christianity. I admit that in the beginning I actually thought I might make an impact on the people on these boards but now I know that my time is much better off picking up dog poop in my yard. It is more functional and more profitable. Thee was also a time when it was somewhat entertaining, but that is fading too. I know that when I was housebound I used it as a crutch for an outlet to talk to someone and I suppose there are those that use it for the same reasons. Any that get on here to teach or think that it is a ministry are the saddest of all. You see Mike as long as you are on here you can do not real harm to the body. You are not going to change anyones mind and you just spin your wheels. The only thing you have done is show your lack of character and honesty with God's plan as His Word. Since your doctrine negates any personal responsibility or deep bride relationship with Jesus I am sure you are quite insecure. You may boast a relationship with God but as per usual those that boast the most usually have the least. Perhaps you seek the Kodos of T8 and Irene to make you feel like a special man. The very best I can do for you mike is pity you and the position you have yourself decided to stay in. So have at it Mike. Relish your pittance of supposed victory. The day is coming when you will need to answer to your human Brother Jesus why you rejected his mission and denied him your brotherhood. (And do not waste your time asking me to prove what I have said because I have no need to repeat what I have already done.) Go ahead call me a chicken or whatever you like. Ridicule from the likes of you is so small an electron microscope could not find it's purpose. (_) this is my Joke Bin. Your proofs, your doctrine, Your character and your sad adhearence to the total Greek philosophical mish mash is now in there. Enjoy your thumbnail kingdom.

You are about the nastiest member here and I hope you will leave…..Nobody needs your kind……. I don't think that Mike is foaming at the mouth. I said once before to look in the mirror….. Being nasty makes your face ugly…… not a Christian at all….A Christian would not be so nasty…..go and pick up your dog poop….and I don't need another man to show me what Scriptures say. God's Holy Spoirit does that….which BTW you lack….Irene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Arnold @ Aug. 05 2010,10:30)

You are about the nastiest member here and I hope you will leave…..Nobody needs your kind……. I don't think that Mike is foaming at the mouth.

Hi Irene,

I'm glad you “have my back”!     And you are right:  I not “foaming at the mouth”.  I'm not even angry about anything except Martian's bold face lies about me.  Rather, I'm actually feeling pretty confident.

Certain people have been spouting their unsubstantiated opinions on the pre-existence thread for 800+ pages.  And I suspected that if I broke the jumbled up mess that thread was into single scriptures, they would either come up with defenses to those scriptures with that were so illogical it would boggle the mind, or they would just run away.

I was right on both counts!     We even ended up with some things I didn't see coming.

Martian…..Bolted out the door and ran, flinging insults as he went – because that is a desperate man's last defense.

Gene…..I can't wait to see the next unscriptural mind boggling thing he says next.

barley…..Puts on a facade of superiority in scriptural knowledge while refusing to answer to the simple clear questions you and I ask, most likely because he can't.

Marty…..Reduced to posting unrelated scriptures without stating how he thinks they are related, all while refusing to answer to the simple clear points we make.

Kerwin…..Reduced to story telling time by making analogies about “what ifs” that really don't even apply to the scripture in question, and definitely don't refute our understanding of them.

Anyway Irene, I was thinking about John 17:5 for the next discussion.  I'll start it soon and look for you there.  In the mean time, Kathi has brought an important issue to my attention, and asked me to help out with it.  Look for the “CHRISTIAN BEHAVIOR” thread I'm starting right now.  Martian will be my guest of honor today.

peace and love,
mike

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (martian @ Aug. 05 2010,02:27)

Actually Mike, I am very pleased that you are still foaming at the mouth here and spewing out your nonsense. You see forums are the dead end and the back end of Christianity. I admit that in the beginning I actually thought I might make an impact on the people on these boards but now I know that my time is much better off picking up dog poop in my yard. It is more functional and more profitable. Thee was also a time when it was somewhat entertaining, but that is fading too. I know that when I was housebound I used it as a crutch for an outlet to talk to someone and I suppose there are those that use it for the same reasons. Any that get on here to teach or think that it is a ministry are the saddest of all. You see Mike as long as you are on here you can do not real harm to the body. You are not going to change anyones mind and you just spin your wheels. The only thing you have done is show your lack of character and honesty with God's plan as His Word. Since your doctrine negates any personal responsibility or deep bride relationship with Jesus I am sure you are quite insecure. You may boast a relationship with God but as per usual those that boast the most usually have the least. Perhaps you seek the Kodos of T8 and Irene to make you feel like a special man. The very best I can do for you mike is pity you and the position you have yourself decided to stay in. So have at it Mike. Relish your pittance of supposed victory. The day is coming when you will need to answer to your human Brother Jesus why you rejected his mission and denied him your brotherhood. (And do not waste your time asking me to prove what I have said because I have no need to repeat what I have already done.) Go ahead call me a chicken or whatever you like. Ridicule from the likes of you is so small an electron microscope could not find it's purpose. (_) this is my Joke Bin. Your proofs, your doctrine, Your character and your sad adhearence to the total Greek philosophical mish mash is now in there. Enjoy your thumbnail kingdom.

Martian,

You are indeed an alien from mars for your heart lives there.
I have read your words knowing that you are a alien,
Becuase you say you are a Brother, but you are indeed a stranger.

Mike and I have had our many disagreements, and i have had my moments where i felt like pulling my hair, and breaking my own teeth, or maybe just jump out of the window,
BUT I know, that i know, that i know, that i know, He loves his brothers and sisters, i know he cares.

And even though that i think he has alzheimers and has amnesia ever so often, and even though he is a super old man, i still think he is at least respectable yet odd. and even though i do feel him getting ahead of himslef, and getting puffed up at times where it seems he shouldnt, the guy still loves, and cares for the people here.

I feel no love in your words,
I think this forum did you more harm than good, because how can you say that you love God Who you cant see, and not be loving to the person who is right in front of you?

And if all you said was true, how could you please with that?

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Arnold @ Aug. 05 2010,04:19)

I also want to add that in Hebrew 1:8 He is called God…. Peace Irene

Woah Woah Woah lol,
dont take this offensivly,

what are you saying here?

8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 05 2010,06:34)

Quote (Arnold @ Aug. 05 2010,10:30) You are about the nastiest member here and I hope you will leave…..Nobody needs your kind……. I don't think that Mike is foaming at the mouth. Hi Irene, I'm glad you “have my back”!     And you are right:  I not “foaming at the mouth”.  I'm not even angry about anything except Martian's bold face lies about me.  Rather, I'm actually feeling pretty confident. Certain people have been spouting their unsubstantiated opinions on the pre-existence thread for 800+ pages.  And I suspected that if I broke the jumbled up mess that thread was into single scriptures, they would either come up with defenses to those scriptures with that were so illogical it would boggle the mind, or they would just run away. I was right on both counts!     We even ended up with some things I didn't see coming. Martian…..Bolted out the door and ran, flinging insults as he went – because that is a desperate man's last defense. Gene…..I can't wait to see the next unscriptural mind boggling thing he says next. barley…..Puts on a facade of superiority in scriptural knowledge while refusing to answer to the simple clear questions you and I ask, most likely because he can't. Marty…..Reduced to posting unrelated scriptures without stating how he thinks they are related, all while refusing to answer to the simple clear points we make. Kerwin…..Reduced to story telling time by making analogies about “what ifs” that really don't even apply to the scripture in question, and definitely don't refute our understanding of them. Anyway Irene, I was thinking about John 17:5 for the next discussion.  I'll start it soon and look for you there.  In the mean time, Kathi has brought an important issue to my attention, and asked me to help out with it.  Look for the “CHRISTIAN BEHAVIOR” thread I'm starting right now.  Martian will be my guest of honor today. peace and love, mike

lol im sorry that made me laugh…..

oh gosh…

your oberservations were funny.

I like the one about kerwin, i didnt know how to classify him, but the one you came up with is good.

[martian]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 05 2010,12:34)

Quote (Arnold @ Aug. 05 2010,10:30) You are about the nastiest member here and I hope you will leave…..Nobody needs your kind……. I don't think that Mike is foaming at the mouth. Hi Irene, I'm glad you “have my back”!     And you are right:  I not “foaming at the mouth”.  I'm not even angry about anything except Martian's bold face lies about me.  Rather, I'm actually feeling pretty confident. Certain people have been spouting their unsubstantiated opinions on the pre-existence thread for 800+ pages.  And I suspected that if I broke the jumbled up mess that thread was into single scriptures, they would either come up with defenses to those scriptures with that were so illogical it would boggle the mind, or they would just run away. I was right on both counts!     We even ended up with some things I didn't see coming. Martian…..Bolted out the door and ran, flinging insults as he went – because that is a desperate man's last defense. Gene…..I can't wait to see the next unscriptural mind boggling thing he says next. barley…..Puts on a facade of superiority in scriptural knowledge while refusing to answer to the simple clear questions you and I ask, most likely because he can't. Marty…..Reduced to posting unrelated scriptures without stating how he thinks they are related, all while refusing to answer to the simple clear points we make. Kerwin…..Reduced to story telling time by making analogies about “what ifs” that really don't even apply to the scripture in question, and definitely don't refute our understanding of them. Anyway Irene, I was thinking about John 17:5 for the next discussion.  I'll start it soon and look for you there.  In the mean time, Kathi has brought an important issue to my attention, and asked me to help out with it.  Look for the “CHRISTIAN BEHAVIOR” thread I'm starting right now.  Martian will be my guest of honor today. peace and love, mike

Statements are only insults if they are not true. In your case I was probably complimentary.

[martian]

Quote (Arnold @ Aug. 05 2010,10:30)

Quote (martian @ Aug. 05 2010,08:27) Actually Mike, I am very pleased that you are still foaming at the mouth here and spewing out your nonsense. You see forums are the dead end and the back end of Christianity. I admit that in the beginning I actually thought I might make an impact on the people on these boards but now I know that my time is much better off picking up dog poop in my yard. It is more functional and more profitable. Thee was also a time when it was somewhat entertaining, but that is fading too. I know that when I was housebound I used it as a crutch for an outlet to talk to someone and I suppose there are those that use it for the same reasons. Any that get on here to teach or think that it is a ministry are the saddest of all. You see Mike as long as you are on here you can do not real harm to the body. You are not going to change anyones mind and you just spin your wheels. The only thing you have done is show your lack of character and honesty with God's plan as His Word. Since your doctrine negates any personal responsibility or deep bride relationship with Jesus I am sure you are quite insecure. You may boast a relationship with God but as per usual those that boast the most usually have the least. Perhaps you seek the Kodos of T8 and Irene to make you feel like a special man. The very best I can do for you mike is pity you and the position you have yourself decided to stay in. So have at it Mike. Relish your pittance of supposed victory. The day is coming when you will need to answer to your human Brother Jesus why you rejected his mission and denied him your brotherhood. (And do not waste your time asking me to prove what I have said because I have no need to repeat what I have already done.) Go ahead call me a chicken or whatever you like. Ridicule from the likes of you is so small an electron microscope could not find it's purpose. (_) this is my Joke Bin. Your proofs, your doctrine, Your character and your sad adhearence to the total Greek philosophical mish mash is now in there. Enjoy your thumbnail kingdom. You are about the nastiest member here and I hope you will leave…..Nobody needs your kind……. I don't think that Mike is foaming at the mouth.  I said once before to look in the mirror….. Being nasty makes your face ugly…… not a Christian at all….A Christian would not be so nasty…..go and pick up your dog poop….and I don't need another man to show me what Scriptures say.  God's Holy Spoirit does that….which BTW you lack….Irene

Ooohhh I am so upset about your opinion.
You said you were not going to post to me but you broke that statement to take retribution on me. UH Huh!!! There is a Christian attitude.
Do you really think you are in a position to do any correction. I am not even sure if you are saved. Depends if you follow the WJ party line of not believing in the physical resurrection.

Irene please stay on the forum. You can do no harm here either. Leave real Christianity to real christians. The Christians that stay off boards and forums.

[GeneBalthrop]

Mike………….Have you become a false accuser of the brethren as others also, Show where I have posted something that was not scriptural, because i don't agree with you on your preconceived dogmas does not mean i am posting any mind boggling things. It is mind boggling to you perhaps maybe, but not to others. IMO

You say martian bolts out the door and runs, but the fact are martian has posted many sound and conclusive scriptures with good understandings. You simply do not accept it no matter how sound it is. Then when he sees you lack of acceptance he discontinues his response to you, you say he is running and try to put that as a confirmation that you are right in what you say. Martian has produced solid scripture and logical support for what he has said. Your failure to accept it or consider it is the problem here Brother.IMO

peace and love…………………………..gene

peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene

[martian]

Just so everyone knows. I may get kicked off of here for this post. (big loss)
I find it interesting that I was warned by T8 for my posts and yet Irene can post this.
“You are about the nastiest member here and I hope you will leave…..Nobody needs your kind……. I don't think that Mike is foaming at the mouth. I said once before to look in the mirror….. Being nasty makes your face ugly…… not a Christian at all….A Christian would not be so nasty…..go and pick up your dog poop….and I don't need another man to show me what Scriptures say. God's Holy Spoirit does that….which BTW you lack….Irene”

Most likely she won't even get a second glance from T8 because he is a preexister. I thought moderators were supposed to be unbiased.

[Arnold]

Quote (martian @ Aug. 06 2010,01:00)

Quote (Arnold @ Aug. 05 2010,10:30) Quote (martian @ Aug. 05 2010,08:27) Actually Mike, I am very pleased that you are still foaming at the mouth here and spewing out your nonsense. You see forums are the dead end and the back end of Christianity. I admit that in the beginning I actually thought I might make an impact on the people on these boards but now I know that my time is much better off picking up dog poop in my yard. It is more functional and more profitable. Thee was also a time when it was somewhat entertaining, but that is fading too. I know that when I was housebound I used it as a crutch for an outlet to talk to someone and I suppose there are those that use it for the same reasons. Any that get on here to teach or think that it is a ministry are the saddest of all. You see Mike as long as you are on here you can do not real harm to the body. You are not going to change anyones mind and you just spin your wheels. The only thing you have done is show your lack of character and honesty with God's plan as His Word. Since your doctrine negates any personal responsibility or deep bride relationship with Jesus I am sure you are quite insecure. You may boast a relationship with God but as per usual those that boast the most usually have the least. Perhaps you seek the Kodos of T8 and Irene to make you feel like a special man. The very best I can do for you mike is pity you and the position you have yourself decided to stay in. So have at it Mike. Relish your pittance of supposed victory. The day is coming when you will need to answer to your human Brother Jesus why you rejected his mission and denied him your brotherhood. (And do not waste your time asking me to prove what I have said because I have no need to repeat what I have already done.) Go ahead call me a chicken or whatever you like. Ridicule from the likes of you is so small an electron microscope could not find it's purpose. (_) this is my Joke Bin. Your proofs, your doctrine, Your character and your sad adhearence to the total Greek philosophical mish mash is now in there. Enjoy your thumbnail kingdom. You are about the nastiest member here and I hope you will leave…..Nobody needs your kind……. I don't think that Mike is foaming at the mouth.  I said once before to look in the mirror….. Being nasty makes your face ugly…… not a Christian at all….A Christian would not be so nasty…..go and pick up your dog poop….and I don't need another man to show me what Scriptures say.  God's Holy Spoirit does that….which BTW you lack….Irene Ooohhh I am so upset about your opinion. You said you were not going to post to me but you broke that statement to take retribution on me. UH Huh!!! There is a Christian attitude. Do you really think you are in a position to do any correction. I am not even sure if you are saved. Depends if you follow the WJ party line of not believing in the physical resurrection. Irene please stay on the forum. You can do no harm here either. Leave real Christianity to real christians. The Christians that stay off boards and forums.

Martian! For those that are just reading this, sometimes you have to do what is right. In this case I was very much upset with Martian to be that nasty…. That should not happen. Kathi did open a new tread how a Christian should behave and I will go there next… And it was not my opinion at all it is an observation that I seen, the remark was uncalled for…..And why did you not leave to pick up your poop instead…..

[martian]

Quote (Arnold @ Aug. 06 2010,02:38)

Quote (martian @ Aug. 06 2010,01:00) Quote (Arnold @ Aug. 05 2010,10:30) Quote (martian @ Aug. 05 2010,08:27) Actually Mike, I am very pleased that you are still foaming at the mouth here and spewing out your nonsense. You see forums are the dead end and the back end of Christianity. I admit that in the beginning I actually thought I might make an impact on the people on these boards but now I know that my time is much better off picking up dog poop in my yard. It is more functional and more profitable. Thee was also a time when it was somewhat entertaining, but that is fading too. I know that when I was housebound I used it as a crutch for an outlet to talk to someone and I suppose there are those that use it for the same reasons. Any that get on here to teach or think that it is a ministry are the saddest of all. You see Mike as long as you are on here you can do not real harm to the body. You are not going to change anyones mind and you just spin your wheels. The only thing you have done is show your lack of character and honesty with God's plan as His Word. Since your doctrine negates any personal responsibility or deep bride relationship with Jesus I am sure you are quite insecure. You may boast a relationship with God but as per usual those that boast the most usually have the least. Perhaps you seek the Kodos of T8 and Irene to make you feel like a special man. The very best I can do for you mike is pity you and the position you have yourself decided to stay in. So have at it Mike. Relish your pittance of supposed victory. The day is coming when you will need to answer to your human Brother Jesus why you rejected his mission and denied him your brotherhood. (And do not waste your time asking me to prove what I have said because I have no need to repeat what I have already done.) Go ahead call me a chicken or whatever you like. Ridicule from the likes of you is so small an electron microscope could not find it's purpose. (_) this is my Joke Bin. Your proofs, your doctrine, Your character and your sad adhearence to the total Greek philosophical mish mash is now in there. Enjoy your thumbnail kingdom. You are about the nastiest member here and I hope you will leave…..Nobody needs your kind……. I don't think that Mike is foaming at the mouth.  I said once before to look in the mirror….. Being nasty makes your face ugly…… not a Christian at all….A Christian would not be so nasty…..go and pick up your dog poop….and I don't need another man to show me what Scriptures say.  God's Holy Spoirit does that….which BTW you lack….Irene Ooohhh I am so upset about your opinion. You said you were not going to post to me but you broke that statement to take retribution on me. UH Huh!!! There is a Christian attitude. Do you really think you are in a position to do any correction. I am not even sure if you are saved. Depends if you follow the WJ party line of not believing in the physical resurrection. Irene please stay on the forum. You can do no harm here either. Leave real Christianity to real christians. The Christians that stay off boards and forums. Martian!  For those that are just reading this, sometimes you have to do what is right.  In this case I was very much upset with Martian to be that nasty…. That should not happen.  Kathi did open a new tread how a Christian should behave and I will go there next… And it was not my opinion at all it is an observation that I seen, the remark was uncalled for…..And why did you not leave to pick up your poop instead…..

Who are you posting for? If you are not aware of it by now your opinion has little effect on me at all.
The fact that your influences have been from one cult to another does not inspire confidence. Catholisim to H. Armstrong to JWs?
Any reasonable person would question your ability to have good sound teaching.
I have no problem with those that are ignorant of truth, however those that are arrogantly and willingly ignorant and not open to any honest discourse are worse then the ignorant.

[martian]

Lest we forget the caliber of those who post preexistence dogma.
On page four I ask mike this.

Hey Mike,
What process did you go through to determine if your conclusions about this verse were correct? After all it is not an original text from the first century and you are not living in that culture. How did you do it?

Your response on page 5?
Look, I don't mean to be rude, but how I come by my understanding of a particular scripture is my business.

Me-
Yep there is honest discourse if I ever saw it. LOL

You go on to say –
I research the Greek or Hebrew words to the extent necessary. Now I read the words in John 6:62 just as they are written, and I even checked for alternate definitions to be sure.
In response to your stating that you check the Greek and Hebrew I posted this.
You say-
“This one was the one about whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is greater than I am, 42 because he existed before me.’”

We know John was born 6 months BEFORE Jesus was born. And Elizabeth was impregnated BEFORE Mary was, so in what sense did John think Jesus “existed before him”?

Reply-
Following your conclusion to it’s end we get this–
So according to your interpretation, Jesus is greater then John because he existed before him. So something from Christ’s preexistence made him greater then John. Something that was carried on into his earthly life.
Christ is greater then John due to his preexistence.
Funny thing is in other posts you said all Christ had that other men did not have was knowledge and that it would not effect our ability to follow him.
We cannot do greater things then Christ because part of his greatness was due to a preexistence we cannot acquire.

The Greek word for existed is eilmio and means –
to be, to exist, to happen, to be present
It is translated in the following ways –
NAS (249) accompanied, 1; accompany, 2; am, 138; amount, 1; amounts, 1; appear, 1; asserted, 1; become, 5; been, 1; being, 26; belong, 3; belonged, 1; belonging, 1; belongs, 4; bring, 1; came, 1; come, 5; consist, 1; crave, 1; depends, 1; do, 1; done, 1; exist, 3; existed, 1; falls, 1; found, 1; had, 8; happen, 4; have, 2; have come, 1; lived, 1; mean, 2; means, 7; meant, 2; originate, 1; owns, 1; remain, 3; remained, 1; rest, 1; sided, 1; stayed, 2; themselves, 1; there, 6; turn, 1;

The Greek word for before is prwÜtov and means –
1. first in time or place
a. in any succession of things or persons
2. first in rank
a. influence, honour
b. chief
c. principal
3. first, at the first

And is translated in the NAS 128; first importance, 1; first man, 1; first of all, 2; first one, 1; first things, 1; first time, 1; foremost, 5; leading, 2; leading man, 1; leading men, 5; outer, 3; previous, 1;

So this verse could be translated He existed first in time
-OR-
He is to be first in influence and honour, the chief

At the very least we know that Mikes proof text is not conclusive evidence of a preexistence.
So how do you determine which translation is correct?
Some like Mike determine which to use because of a predetermined doctrine he is hot to prove.
I determine which one by context.
15John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'”
27″It is He who comes after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie.”
Obviously the context is about Christ being first in rank. That is how you determine which of the various meanings of the Greek words are appropriate.
This also ties in nicely with all the scriptures that call Christ preeminent over all creation including all men.

Mike obviously even broke the 1 or 2 principles he said he upheld. Is this honest?

[martian]

One more thing —
When talking about us making decisions based on the same criteria as Christ so that we could develop the same character as him. Mike compares it to 3 Y/O's imitating monkeys. I told this to a pastor friend and he was aghast that anyone claiming to be Christian could say such a thing. This is so totally insulting to the mission and the person of Christ as to actually defy description. If any on here need worry about being insulting and nasty it should be Mike. He will do and say anything to support his indoctrination. This is why I left. Not because I could not honestly counter his arguments but because people that defy and insult my brother Jesus and his mission are not due or deserve any respect or consideration.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 05 2010,19:38)

Quote (martian @ Aug. 05 2010,02:27) Actually Mike, I am very pleased that you are still foaming at the mouth here and spewing out your nonsense. You see forums are the dead end and the back end of Christianity. I admit that in the beginning I actually thought I might make an impact on the people on these boards but now I know that my time is much better off picking up dog poop in my yard. It is more functional and more profitable. Thee was also a time when it was somewhat entertaining, but that is fading too. I know that when I was housebound I used it as a crutch for an outlet to talk to someone and I suppose there are those that use it for the same reasons. Any that get on here to teach or think that it is a ministry are the saddest of all. You see Mike as long as you are on here you can do not real harm to the body. You are not going to change anyones mind and you just spin your wheels. The only thing you have done is show your lack of character and honesty with God's plan as His Word. Since your doctrine negates any personal responsibility or deep bride relationship with Jesus I am sure you are quite insecure. You may boast a relationship with God but as per usual those that boast the most usually have the least. Perhaps you seek the Kodos of T8 and Irene to make you feel like a special man. The very best I can do for you mike is pity you and the position you have yourself decided to stay in. So have at it Mike. Relish your pittance of supposed victory. The day is coming when you will need to answer to your human Brother Jesus why you rejected his mission and denied him your brotherhood. (And do not waste your time asking me to prove what I have said because I have no need to repeat what I have already done.) Go ahead call me a chicken or whatever you like. Ridicule from the likes of you is so small an electron microscope could not find it's purpose. (_) this is my Joke Bin. Your proofs, your doctrine, Your character and your sad adhearence to the total Greek philosophical mish mash is now in there. Enjoy your thumbnail kingdom. Martian, You are indeed an alien from mars for your heart lives there. I have read your words knowing that you are a alien, Becuase you say you are a Brother, but you are indeed a stranger. Mike and I have had our many disagreements, and i have had my moments where i felt like pulling my hair, and breaking my own teeth, or maybe just jump out of the window, BUT I know, that i know, that i know, that i know, He loves his brothers and sisters, i know he cares. And even though that i think he has alzheimers and has amnesia ever so often, and even though he is a super old man, i still think he is at least respectable yet odd.  and even though i do feel him getting ahead of himslef, and getting puffed up at times where it seems he shouldnt, the guy still loves, and cares for the people here.   I feel no love in your words, I think this forum did you more harm than good, because how can you say that you love God Who you cant see, and not be loving to the person who is right in front of you? And if all you said was true, how could you please with that?

Hey Dennison,

Thanks! ……..I think….

mike

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