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Mike………..Not sure if you fully understand it, But we also could say we are to ascend up to where we were before , are we not all in the plan and will of GOD? is not GOD (IN) heaven ? Are we no seated with Christ in the heavens, Get the picture. Mike take time and go read the Site and Article Martian posted for you brother read it carefully and thoroughly brother, and then come back and lets discuss it further, me , barely, martian Nick , all have great expectation of you coming to see and understand this brother. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
Hi barley/oatmeal,
So your contention is that because Jesus wasn't literally a loaf of bread, he didn't literally ascend to where he was before?
Oh but he did. And the disciples actually watched him ascend. And Stephen actually saw to where he ascended.
I don't remember Stephen seeing any “saints” also at God's right hand. And I don't know of any scripture in Ephesians that says anyone except Jesus has the right hand of God postition.
So now it gets more complicated than just saying “it was a figure of speach” for you guys. Because Jesus said, “You will see greater things than these”. Then he said “What if you see me ascend to where I was before”. Then they DID see him ascend to where he was before.
You say YOU were at God's right hand yesterday? Did you “ascend” there? God is in heaven…….did you physically leave the earth and ascend to heaven and see the face of God? Jesus did. And he told the disciples he would do it way before he did it. And here's the kicker……he said he would ascend TO WHERE HE WAS BEFORE.
So if the ascension was a literal thing that people saw with their own eyes, what makes you think the “WHERE I WAS BEFORE” wasn't also literal?
And you didn't actually answer the manna question. Your preconceived idea is that the manna didn't literally come “from heaven”. But what if scripture said the manna ASCENDED TO WHERE IT WAS BEFORE? What if the Israelites saw it happen daily with their own eyes? Would you ignore that and stick with your own preconceived notion……..or would you change your idea in light of scripture?
mike
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 31 2010,10:24) Mike………..Not sure if you fully understand it, But we also could say we are to ascend up to where we were before , are we not all in the plan and will of GOD? is not GOD (IN) heaven ? Are we no seated with Christ in the heavens, Get the picture. Mike take time and go read the Site and Article Martian posted for you brother read it carefully and thoroughly brother, and then come back and lets discuss it further, me , barely, martian Nick , all have great expectation of you coming to see and understand this brother. IMO peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
Pure foolishness!So if I tell a friend “I came from Virginia to North Carolina and after 24 years I am going back “to where I was before” then he is supposed to think that I am returning to the “plan of God”?
WJ
WJ……….You properly do not believe Cyrus was from above either , or Jeremiah, of John the Baptist and on and on it goes, You probably don't believe GOD foreordained any of Us do you. But that is they way Trinitarians an Preexistences believe. Tell us what this means “FOR WHOM HE (foreknew) HE PREDESTINED TO BE CONFORMED UNTO THE IMAGE OF HIS DEAR SON, or UNTIL WE ALL COME TO THE (FULL) STATUES OF CHRIST JESUS. The Word (FULL) Stature must really fracture you belief system that Jesus is a GOD , because that would mean we are to be GODS also right, or how could we come to the (FULL) Stature of Christ. Tell us who are these he (FOREKNEW) AND WHEN DID HE FOREKNEW AND PREDESTINED THEM. Why separate Jesus from this fold and make him different the we are. You are doing a great disservice to both Jesus and the work GOD Has done through the (MAN) Jesus. IMO
WJ, dump the Trinitarian and Preexistence garbage and you will begin to preach Jesus in the right light brother. IMO
peace and lvoe to you and yours……………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 01 2010,02:24) Mike take time and go read the Site and Article Martian posted for you brother read it carefully and thoroughly brother, and then come back and lets discuss it further, me , barely, martian Nick , all have great expectation of you coming to see and understand this brother. IMO
I've got a better idea, Gene.Why don't you, Nick, Martian or barley actually explain how Jesus said he would ascend to where he was before, and then did?
You try to compare what Jesus said to us figuratively “ascending to where we were before”, but Jesus didn't say it figuratively. The disciples actually saw him do it with their own eyes.
mike
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 31 2010,10:40) WJ……….You properly do not believe Cyrus was from above either , or Jeremiah, of John the Baptist and on and on it goes, You probably don't believe GOD foreordained any of Us do you.
But none of them ever said they “came down from heaven” or they “are from above” or they “were going to ascend back to where they were before”, did they Gene?“He that cometh from above is above all“: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: “he that cometh from heaven is above all“. John 3:31
“HE THAT COMETH FROM ABOVE IS ABOVE ALL” : “HE THAT COMETH FROM ABOVE IS ABOVE ALL” : “HE THAT COMETH FROM ABOVE IS ABOVE ALL” : “HE THAT COMETH FROM HEAVEN IS ABOVE ALL ” : “HE THAT COMETH FROM HEAVEN IS ABOVE ALL ” : “HE THAT COMETH FROM HEAVEN IS ABOVE ALL ”
What part of Jesus words is not clear to you?
WJ
MIke………Your mixing up Spiritual thing with Physical things, GOD is Spirit not physical He call thing before they ever exist and brings them about in His creation. Jesus was called out from the Beginning as a (seed of the women) who would bruise the head of the serpent, but his did not exist till he was born here on earth. This was God (FOREORDAINED ) PLAN from the very beginning of creation can't you understand that. “Jesus was indeed (FOREORDAINED) (preplanned) (BUT) was (MANIFESTED) (brought into existence), in our time”. He came from the Stock of David and was as Moses said, from His brethren, God would bring forth a Prophet like Him that we should Heed. No where doe Moses or any Prophet say Jesus descended into the womb of Mary as a morphed being into a human being. God is dealing with Man not some preexisting beings somewhere. Jesus' Glory was a Preexisting Glory reserved for him By GOD before He was ever Born, the same with Cyrus and others also.
peace and love……………………..gene
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 01 2010,02:15) Hi All I don't usually agree with Mike on much but it is clear what the scriptures say on his preexistence.
Welcome WJ!It's funny how, while in the middle of my last reponse to barley, I stepped outside and was talking to God and asking for the words to make these guys understand what they can't seem to from the plainly written scriptures. And I thought at that moment about actually pm-ing you for some support here. After I posted, I saw where you had joined the discussion. How cool is that?
Btw, you and I only seem to disagree on anything that has to do with Jesus being God or equal to him. We are fierce opponents on that subject, but there is no reason we can't be fierce allies on this one, IMO.
I'm trying to take the pre-existent thread and break it down into individual scriptures. We started with Phil 2, and are now discussing John 6:62. There are many left to go over, but please try to keep this discussion to John 6:62 as best you can. We don't need another pre-existent thread with all scriptures getting jumbled together to the point that none of them actually get solidly refuted by the non-preexisters. I started this because of the many scriptures Irene kept posting just to get ignored. It's harder for them to ignore if we're only dealing with one at a time. And when they can't ignore it, their very weak arguments against it become transparent.
Thanks for your help and for keeping this one about John 6:62 (within reason, of course).
mike
Wowee you guys…
This is tremendous scoping in treacherous waters – who is drowning under the flood. Gene, what colour spectacles do you wear – I bet they are a spectacle – makes you look like you are blind…so you can say, “I'm not blind. it's the spectacles! Who's asking me any way, where are you?”
And Mike, why are you remonstrating with Gene. Does it not hurt your Spirit to be arguing with him – break the chain of pride and let him go – he is clearly deluded – even WJ has had to come to your side – and now JustAskin is here, too!
Mike, there comes a point when arguing with the foolish make you also looks foolish and that time has firmly come.
Brother, Mike, give it up – it is not losing – it's WINNING because the game is to hook you into trash arguments – winning is about getting loose from it.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 01 2010,02:52) Jesus was called out from the Beginning as a (seed of the women) who would bruise the head of the serpent, but his did not exist till he was born here on earth.
Yes Gene,Jesus was predestined to be the seed of Mary who would bruise the head of the serpent. The serpent that he helped to create, along with everything else in existence.
And Jesus is not only the Branch of David, but also the Root. David called him “My Lord”. Jesus even asked the Biblical pharisees (as opposed to you current ones) how David could have called someone who came AFTER him “My Lord”.
And this “the glory is what pre-existed, not Jesus” argument is so lame it hardly deserves an answer. I've been beating my head against the wall with Kerwin over this one in the pre-existent thread. It is a clear case of people claiming what is ludicrous even to them, in a lame attempt to stand their ground on an unscriptural doctine.
mike
Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 01 2010,03:08) Wowee you guys… This is tremendous scoping in treacherous waters – who is drowning under the flood. Gene, what colour spectacles do you wear – I bet they are a spectacle – makes you look like you are blind…so you can say, “I'm not blind. it's the spectacles! Who's asking me any way, where are you?”
And Mike, why are you remonstrating with Gene. Does it not hurt your Spirit to be arguing with him – break the chain of pride and let him go – he is clearly deluded – even WJ has had to come to your side – and now JustAskin is here, too!
Mike, there comes a point when arguing with the foolish make you also looks foolish and that time has firmly come.
Brother, Mike, give it up – it is not losing – it's WINNING because the game is to hook you into trash arguments – winning is about getting loose from it.
It's about time you showed up JA.Now we just need Kathi, Irene, t8 and KJ to join in the fun!
I enjoy debating, JA. Why would YOU pass judgement on MY methods of bringing someone to an understanding of scripture and call them/me “foolish”? I've seen some of your methods, spectacle boy!
And WJ will attest, you are the last one on HN to be preaching about pride.
The thread is about John 6:62…….Either give your thoughts on that scripture, or leave us to the battle.
peace and love,
mikeMike,
I felt an obligation to post why I believe that your methods of interpretation are dishonest and inaccurate. To my target audience I have done that. Because of your indoctrination into the world of dishonest bible study I know I will never change YOUR mind. I feel no more obligation to engage with you farther. That would truly be casting pearls before swine.
I do pray someday you will come out of the darkness and see a brighter and more wonderful gospel but the choices are yours to make.Mike,
Because this is foolish debating… Gene is hardcore… Granite and you are bruising yourself on him – and I can't sit by and watch you, Brother, bruise yourself like this.
“For the wise man arguing in public with the fool becomes like the fool. To a bystander, it is not discernible which is which!”
And as for my pride – who are my detractors and what is their qualification?
Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 01 2010,04:59) Mike, Because this is foolish debating… Gene is hardcore… Granite and you are bruising yourself on him – and I can't sit by and watch you, Brother, bruise yourself like this.
“For the wise man arguing in public with the fool becomes like the fool. To a bystander, it is not discernible which is which!”
And as for my pride – who are my detractors and what is their qualification?
Hi JA,I was hoping you wouldn't take that as a slam, only acknowledgement we all have pride. It is not so much my personal pride I protect, but my pride in the Word of God and what it says. I can't sit by and just watch these guys twist scripture and logic around and not call them on it.
They take away from the divinity of God's Son who came as a savior to us. They call him “nothing more than human like us”. That is an insult against him and his God IMO.
Your “two fools arguing in public” analogy is great……I love that one.
But if they were arguing about what color the grass was, then it is clear for all to see that the one saying, “Green” is the right one. Unless of course they lived in Blue Grass, Iowa, like I used to.
As for YOUR pride…….that prideful statement in itself answers your own question.
mike
Quote (martian @ Aug. 01 2010,04:25) Mike,
I felt an obligation to post why I believe that your methods of interpretation are dishonest and inaccurate. To my target audience I have done that. Because of your indoctrination into the world of dishonest bible study I know I will never change YOUR mind. I feel no more obligation to engage with you farther. That would truly be casting pearls before swine.
I do pray someday you will come out of the darkness and see a brighter and more wonderful gospel but the choices are yours to make.
Blah, blah, blah…….I can't answer why Jesus said he would ascend to where he was before…….blah, blah, blah.mike
Mike,
Pride, who ARE my DETRACTORS and WHAT IS their qualification?
The “two fools” is from Scriptures.
Certain factions of a religious group get angry about their god being insulted and threaten (and do) kill, bomb, shoot create wars with, others who do the insulting – because their God cannot defend themself and requires man to defend their honour… not so with the ONE GOD of the fathers, YHVH, “For do you not believe that the father could send ten thousand legions of Angels to fight for Him” – no need, my brother, God is not insulted, hurt, yes.
Mike, ONLY if They Insult the HOLY SPIRIT… and even then they will be eternally condemned and ain't a damn thing anyone but them can do about that, except ask them to repent with much wailing and tears and sorrowful cries and furver.
Mike, “Suggest it, but don't tell them, for they should already know it!” (the GodFather – to Tom Hagen. GF, part 1)
Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 01 2010,05:59) Mike, Pride, who ARE my DETRACTORS and WHAT IS their qualification?
The “two fools” is from Scriptures.
Hi JA,I don't understand the question. Are you implying your posts aren't only prideful, but sometimes downright arrogant?
And what scripture has the “two fools”? I'd like to read it. Thanks.
mike
Mike,
You claimed that WJ can attest to my “Pride” so i asked what his qualification was for the claim of my pride. I think it is simple enough and moreover, was from your own post.
Quote http://www.guardian.bz/all-politics/1451-never-argue-with-a-fooln
Mark Twain is famously recorded as saying, “Never argue with a fool. Onlookers might not be able to tell the difference”; while Woody Allen cautioned, “Never argue with a fool; they will lower you to their level and then beat you with experience”.Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 30 2010,13:15) Quote (942767 @ July 30 2010,12:28) He existed in the heart of the Father who knew that a particular point in time He would conceive a Son in the womb of the virgin Mary, and he knew what He would speak His Word to humanity through him, and He knew that Jesus would obey this same Word without sin even unto death on the cross.
Hi Marty,And you know this how?
mike
Hi Mike:I know this by the scriptures. First, the body did not exist until “Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost and born of the virgin Mary”. Are we in agreement so far?
And so, Jesus was born into the world with a body of flesh as a living soul or person with a mind, a will, and emotions.
Secondly, He, Jesus said that it was “the Father that gave us the bread from heaven” and he made it clear that he was speaking of “the Words that he spoke was the bread of life”, and Hebrews 1 states that “God has spoken to us by his Son in this last day”, and in John 14 Jesus states, “that we have seen the Father through the works of obedience that the Father did through him”. Genesis states that God made man in “His own image”, and 1 Corinthians 15 states that “Jesus is the last Adam”. 1 John 1 states “that eternal life was with the Father and has been made manifest to us through Jesus”, and I could go on and on, but hopefully, this is sufficient.
Love in Christ,
Marty942767……….Those who are worldly minded think The true words of GOD are foolishness as it appears JA does and His pride comes spewing out almost every time he posts, He think by ridiculing others makes Him look important ans more intelligent, Not realizing it only makes him look foolish, His aggrandizements only services Him, and His self made High tower, adds nothing to the words of GOD. IMO , At least Mike is considering what we are Posting I believe.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene
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