John 6:62

Participant

Mike……….Brother martian is right in what he has said brother. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene

August 13, 2010 at 9:23 pm#208870

Anonymous

Guest

Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 01 2010,03:08)

Wowee you guys…

This is tremendous scoping in treacherous waters – who is drowning under the flood. Gene, what colour spectacles do you wear – I bet they are a spectacle – makes you look like you are blind…so you can say, “I'm not blind. it's the spectacles! Who's asking me any way, where are you?”

And Mike, why are you remonstrating with Gene. Does it not hurt your Spirit to be arguing with him – break the chain of pride and let him go – he is clearly deluded – even WJ has had to come to your side – and now JustAskin is here, too!

Mike, there comes a point when arguing with the foolish make you also looks foolish and that time has firmly come.

Brother, Mike, give it up – it is not losing – it's WINNING because the game is to hook you into trash arguments – winning is about getting loose from it.

You are so right, arguing with someone who is always insisting with whatever you put in front of them is fruitless…This has gone on and on to far. When it becomes personal it should stop all together IMO Of course Human Pride won't let most of them not do so. Mike if you read this, JustAskin is right, you should realize by now that they will believe what they want to believe and no Scripture will convince their thinking. When you are blind to the truth you will be blind. And here is where it should stop. In-spite of not agreeing with someone it should never come to a personal attack, but it has been done so again. Calling someone Monkey something…and like it is a personal attack and should not be don if I call myself a Christian. At one point I must have done so also, but I am going to watch myself from now on….It is simply not Christian like…
…I can already hear their wise cracks because I have again another users name…..long story… Peace to all, Irene

August 13, 2010 at 9:30 pm#208872

942767

Participant

Hi Mike:

What about the following scriptures as it relates to this discussion?

Quote

John 3:11-14 (King James Version)

11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, EVEN THE SON OF MAN WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.

Quote

John 17:21That they all may be one;as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me

Quote

John 14:10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Love in Christ,
Marty

August 13, 2010 at 10:04 pm#208882

Participant

Quote (Brian @ Aug. 14 2010,08:23)

Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 01 2010,03:08)

Wowee you guys…

Mike, there comes a point when arguing with the foolish make you also looks foolish and that time has firmly come.

Brother, Mike, give it up – it is not losing – it's WINNING because the game is to hook you into trash arguments – winning is about getting loose from it.

It is not about believing what a person wants out of scripture. It is about using sound honest principles to rightly divide the word of truth. I have several times posted the principles I use to come to my conclusions. I have asked for discussion of same and invited others to share their methods of interpreting scripture. I had hoped that we could come to an honest set tht we would all stick to but it was a vain hope. From some like Mike I got “it is none of your business how I come to my conclusions.” If they are honest principles why not share them? Why keep them in a closet so no one can appreciate the way a particular person studies the word? What are they hiding? Could it be their process is flawed, they know it but do not want others to know it?
Sure seems to be the case.

August 13, 2010 at 10:08 pm#208884

Participant

Quote (Brian @ Aug. 14 2010,08:23)

Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 01 2010,03:08)

Wowee you guys…

Mike, there comes a point when arguing with the foolish make you also looks foolish and that time has firmly come.

Brother, Mike, give it up – it is not losing – it's WINNING because the game is to hook you into trash arguments – winning is about getting loose from it.

It is interesting that you use the word “fruitless.” I have been asking for months what fruit is produced from the preexistence. The best I have recieved has amounted to mental pictures. Where is the power of the teaching. Power that transforms hearts and builds hope in the hearts of men?

August 14, 2010 at 12:14 am#208907

Participant

JA………And what makes you think YOU are not (DELUDED) and your spirit gets broke because you can't get your way or give a good answer to the posts. By martian , barely, Adam, 942767, Kerwin, myself and others. So you just say we are deluded and that gets your ignorance off the hook by acting like you know what you are talking about when in fact your do not. We have all used (sound) posts to show out positions , but in you ignorance and Pride you simply fail to understand or realize them.

And another thing please do not pull Mike into you net , he does not appear to be anything like you, at least he will respond to what is being posted and does not think he is better then anyone else here. IMO

peace and love…………………..gene

August 14, 2010 at 2:30 am#208919

Blocked

Hi Martian,

You say that Jesus is not flesh and blood as we are right now. Yet he is STILL called the Son of Man.

Oh yeah, and since you think “Son of Man” indicates he was exactly like us, then what does ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God mean?

And I'm ignoring your “the” diversion, but I have one more for ya. Are YOU aware of any glory you had in God's presence before the creation of the world?

mike

August 14, 2010 at 2:41 am#208920

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 14 2010,00:33)

Mike……….Separating Jesus from our (exact) identity is the work of the Spirit of Antichrist brother. It constitutes a division of the body of Christ and the work of the Spirit of GOD. Be careful brother that is dangerous ground IMO.

Hi Gene,

Preaching your own doctrine that doesn't align with scripture for your own selfish reasons or “wishes” is the spirit of the anti-Christ IMO.

Remember Jesus was both Son of Man AND ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God. Are YOU the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God Gene?

And don't forget he was both the ROOT AND the branch of David. In what sense was he the ROOT of David if he didn't exist until after him?

That will be our next exercise……Matt 22:45. Are you up to it? It describes Pharisees with the same lack of understanding as you guys seem to have.

August 14, 2010 at 2:43 am#208921

Blocked

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 14 2010,08:30)

Hi Mike:

What about the following scriptures as it relates to this discussion?

Quote

John 3:11-14 (King James Version)

11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, EVEN THE SON OF MAN WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.

Quote

John 17:21That they all may be one;as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me

Quote

John 14:10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Again Marty,

What is it that you think these scriptures say in opposition to Jesus pre-existing?

mike

August 14, 2010 at 3:04 am#208926

Blocked

Quote (Guest @ Aug. 14 2010,08:23)

Hi Irene,

Why did you pick the name “Guest”? Just kidding. I appreciate both yours and JA's input, and I actually agree with most of it. But I'm still learning with everything these guys post against pre-existence. Their posts are a catalyst for me to delve deeper into scripture, and by doing that I'm gaining a fuller understanding little by little.

What if you and I just sat around agreeing that Phil 2 proved Jesus pre-existed? That would be “all she wrote” for us. We wouldn't ever challenge each other to search deeper because we agree and that would be the end of it.

1Pe 3:15 NET
But set Christ apart as Lord in your hearts and always be ready to give an answer to anyone who asks about the hope you possess.

Peter tells us to always be prepared to defind our beliefs. I'm preparing Irene. My belief includes a pre-existent Jesus who was begotten as the only Son of God before the creation of the world. I don't want to just “assert” this belief, I want to be able to back it up scripturally no matter what the other guy throws at me.

Don't worry, I've lived by a simple rule most of my life: When it stops being fun – quit doing it. I'm still having fun learning all I can about scripture.

You are so correct about the personal attacks, and I'm working on my attitude and what I post. I don't remember calling anyone a “monkey” though. Clown, goofball and knucklehead…….yes. But monkey? No.

peace and love,
mike

August 14, 2010 at 3:42 am#208933

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2010,13:41)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 14 2010,00:33)

Hi Gene,

Preaching your own doctrine that doesn't align with scripture for your own selfish reasons or “wishes” is the spirit of the anti-Christ IMO.

Remember Jesus was both Son of Man AND ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God. Are YOU the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God Gene?

And don't forget he was both the ROOT AND the branch of David. In what sense was he the ROOT of David if he didn't exist until after him?

That will be our next exercise……Matt 22:45. Are you up to it? It describes Pharisees with the same lack of understanding as you guys seem to have.

Mike………Interesting your definition of Antichrist and Johns are different He said if they do not believe Jesus came (IN) the FLESH (that) was the spirit of Antichrist , again you destory scripture to maintain you belief system. Peter said Jesus was foreordained , but you say He preexisted where is the word Preexisted found in scripture yet you people keep throwing it our there as if it does and then say we are pushing our own beliefs and doctrine that doesn't alien with scripture. Talk about as Martian said, “dishonest” dialog you people are full of it.

Naturally all trinitarians are going to agree with you preexistences because they are the very ones who started that doctrine also . So you who believe Jesus preexisted even though scripture Doesn't say he did are in the same Boat with the Trinitarians, you just believe he was a little less of a god then God the Father perhaps a demigod of some kind who knows you people sure don't seem to. Talk about the blind leading the blind Preexistences and Trinitarians are definitely a case of the Blind leading the blind IMO.

peace and love……………gene

August 14, 2010 at 4:20 am#208942

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 14 2010,14:42)

Hi Gene,

I can't remember ever being “dishonest” with you. And did you even read what you wrote?

NKJV 1 Jo 4:2
By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,

Here's the definition of that word “come”:

erchomai
1) to come
1a) of persons
1a1) to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving and of those returning

So Jesus CAME in the flesh……….FROM WHERE?

Think it out Gene. Can I say the following statement and still make sense?

Gene Balthrop has COME in the flesh.

What's wrong with that statement Gene? Were you ever something OTHER THAN flesh and so I had to make it clear that you came IN THE FLESH? Of course not, so no one would ever say that about any of us. So why did John use those words of Jesus? If Jesus was always flesh since he existed, why would John say he “CAME” in the flesh?

John was saying that whoever believes that God sent His only begotten Son into the world as a flesh and blood man to be the Savior of the world has the spirit of God in him. Whoever does NOT believe this has the spirit of the antichrist in him. Read all of 1 John 4 Gene. Are YOU one of those believers? I am.

peace and love,
mike

August 14, 2010 at 5:15 am#208956

Baker

Participant

Quote (martian @ Aug. 14 2010,09:08)

Quote (Brian @ Aug. 14 2010,08:23)

Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 01 2010,03:08)

Wowee you guys…

Mike, there comes a point when arguing with the foolish make you also looks foolish and that time has firmly come.

Brother, Mike, give it up – it is not losing – it's WINNING because the game is to hook you into trash arguments – winning is about getting loose from it.

The fruit is that God wanted someone to be with Him. One that was just like Him, a Son. We as Humans even like to have children. In Proverbs 8:22-30 it states that Jesus was the delight of His Father. It is the Wisdom that is Jesus….I would think that God also wants us, that is why He send his only Son into the world to die for us, some that we can live forever and praise God on High. Singing praises to Him is praying twice a very good man once said, and I agree with that…Singing is my favored pass time also…
Peace Irene

August 14, 2010 at 5:33 am#208961

Baker

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 14 2010,14:42)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2010,13:41)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 14 2010,00:33)

Hi Gene,

Preaching your own doctrine that doesn't align with scripture for your own selfish reasons or “wishes” is the spirit of the anti-Christ IMO.

Remember Jesus was both Son of Man AND ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God. Are YOU the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God Gene?

And don't forget he was both the ROOT AND the branch of David. In what sense was he the ROOT of David if he didn't exist until after him?

That will be our next exercise……Matt 22:45. Are you up to it? It describes Pharisees with the same lack of understanding as you guys seem to have.

peace and love……………gene

Gene! It will never end, if we don't stop getting personal. Do you truly believe that all of us are Christian here? I do and we should act like that…no personal posts. Its simple not Christlike at all, is it? It was not any of the Trinity who came up with the preexisting of Jesus. We heard it from a J.W. that came to our House. At first we told Him, are you crazy??? Anti_Christ is the one who does not believe that Christ came in the flesh, we believe that, so the preexisting has nothing to do with the trinity at all….and not Anti_Christ either…..Peace The Baker'sLady

August 14, 2010 at 7:17 am#208972

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2010,15:20)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 14 2010,14:42)

Hi Gene,

I can't remember ever being “dishonest” with you. And did you even read what you wrote?

NKJV 1 Jo 4:2
By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,

Here's the definition of that word “come”:

erchomai
1) to come
1a) of persons
1a1) to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving and of those returning

So Jesus CAME in the flesh……….FROM WHERE?

Think it out Gene. Can I say the following statement and still make sense?

Gene Balthrop has COME in the flesh.

peace and love,
mike

Mike ………..Yes you could say Gene came in to being (IN) the flesh. That was Just what John was meaning. The Gnostic's of John's time was very much like Preexistences are today they believe Jesus came from the Pelora of the Gods and that he only appeared as a human being but was sent from the Gods As a preexisting God. John had to knock out their false teachings and So He said this three times (even though one of them has been removed by translators, but the original Greek text retains it as i remember) that Jesus came in the flesh. The word there for came was to portray Jesus as coming into (existence), not coming from some distant Place as you are inferring. All who remove Jesus from our (exact) likeness as a 100% Human Being and give him some extra advantage over us are both robbing Jesus of his accomplishments as a human being and robbing GOD of his work (IN) a Human Being. It distorts the picture of how GOD saves us through His Spirit working in us just as he worked in Christ Jesus the MAN

Mike not you or your counterparts can give (ONE) good reason GOD would Morph a preexisting begin who was already perfect and pass him off or masquerade as a human being who overcame Just the way we are to. That would not prove anything to anyone and it distorts Jesus' work as a Human being and destroys GOD work (IN) Him and through him.
By removing Jesus Identity from Us you are destroying his work as a SON OF MAN and that is definitely Antichrist. IMO

peace and love…………………gene

August 14, 2010 at 5:49 pm#209048

Participant

When the Hebrews spoke of the flesh, they were speaking of the natural, physical, material realm in which we live. The Hebrews did not see the flesh as evil but as part of he kingdom of God even as the spiritual realm. They saw no separation into good or bad concerning the spiritual realm and the physical natural realm. When they spoke of something coming in the flesh, they were speaking of it being of the same nature as the rest of the natural realm. It’s nature being one of the natural, physical, material, Earthly realm. It was later that the world of Greek Philosophy redefined “flesh”.

Paul often speaks of the flesh. In Philippians 1 verses 19 through 28, we see Paul again using the term “flesh” refering to his life/death in the material/physical realm. this was not an admonition concerning good or bad behaviour, but a simple statement concerning his presence in the “flesh” compared to his presence with Christ after death.

19 for I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayers and the provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

20 according to my earnest expectation and hope, that I will not be put to shame in anything, but that with all boldness, Christ will even now, as always, be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death.

21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.

23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;

24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith,

26 so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again.

Both Paul and John speak very strongly about Christ coming according to the flesh and being in the flesh.

Gnosticism and dualism would deny Jesus coming in the natural flesh because of their philosophy that the natural, physical realm is evil. They qualify his nature to avoid the conclusion that Jesus could be of the lower evil realm. They teach a mystical, spiritual Jesus wrapped in a shell of flesh or 100% God and 100% man unlike the rest of humanity. In the case of Jesus coming according to the flesh, this truth clearly speaks of Jesus being of the same nature and makeup as the rest of humanity.

There are, of course, some diferences between Jesus and the rest of humanity, but none effect his nature or makeup
1. He is the “only begotten son of God” Begotten meaning born.(like the rest of humanity)
2. He is direct heir to the thrown of God.
3. He lived a perfect sinless life.
4. He is the messiah, the Christ.
5. He holds a position in heaven, being the heir, the Christ, and first one to complete God’s plan, that no other human will ever hold.
6. He is the only pattern for the rest of mankind to follow.

Here are just a few of the scriptures that clearly show Jesus is a complete human.

Romans 1/3
concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, (here we see his linage as being human., on his mother’s side from the line of David, and according to the flesh, his nature being in keeping with the rest of natural man.)

Romans 9 Verse 3
For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, ( Paul explains that his brethren are his kinsmen because they come according to the flesh as he does. (flesh= coming in the natural physical realm. His nature and makeup was human. The building blocks that came together at his conception were human)

4
who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5
whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. (Here Jesus is described as coming from the fathers according to the flesh. In other words of the same makeup and nature that Paul clarified earlier.)

August 14, 2010 at 8:01 pm#209077

Participant

Mike posted this to another thread to me.
But please stop trying to butcher the scriptures to make “ascend to where I was before” be some kind of abstract riddle Jesus was telling. It says what it says, and when you add the fact that the disciples actually DID eventually see him ascend to where he was before, you don't even have a leg to stand on.

62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!

Ok Mike, I give. I cannot fight you on this one.
OK everyone. Mike wins. He is right. Jesus lived in heaven before he was born to Mary. More specifically (as the scripture clearly states) The human being (son of man) lived in heaven before he was born to Mary. Mike wants it literal? There it is literal. Have fun with that mike. Now you can start the stupidity that “son of man” does not mean humanity.

August 14, 2010 at 8:09 pm#209080

Participant

Mike,
Are you so insecure that you have to leap to one of the threads I posted to continue this silly debate on John 6:62. You are the one that started this system of debating each individual scripture on a new thread. Why are you dragging it around and hijacking other's threads. Is this kind of behaviour a fruit of your doctrine?

August 15, 2010 at 7:42 pm#209260