- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Since i'm going now, I tought Id leave this one for discussion. In John 19:37 John records that Jesus literally fulfilled a very specific OT prophecy.
JOHN 19
36For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. 37And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.This specific prophecy was made by Zechariah, in Zech 12:10
ZECHARIAH 12
1The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. 2Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. 3And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 4In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God. 6In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. 7The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 8In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. 9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10And I [YHWH] will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me [YHWH] whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.Only YHWH could fulfill this prophecy, because it was made specifically OF YHWH. This cannot be done by proxy, because unless YHWH is pierced, it has not been fulfilled. John unequivocally tells us that Jesus fulfilled it at Calvary. Interested in the thoughts of others.
Hi ,
Yahshua comes in the name of Yahweh.
Yahshua reveals Yahweh.
Yahshua is a vessel for the Spirit of Yahweh.Yahweh is the strength and the power of Yahshua.
Coll 1.19
“For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in him and through him to reconcile all things to Himself”
Jesus does not dwell in himself.
God does not dwell in Himself.
God dwells in Jesus
2Cor 5.19
“..God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.”Yahweh has visited His people.
Yahweh will return again in power2Tim 2 26
” Now in every large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and earthenware..”In the vessel of His Son.
I agree Nick
as someone who studied the Oneness doctrine for about 6 months now, i can surely say that it doesn't hold water. How can Jesus be God when the gospels testify that Jesus was tempted by satan. James 1:13 says that God cannot be temped nor does he tempt others. How can Jesus be God when God forsaked Jesus on the cross. The gospels testify that Jesus cried out “my God my God, why have you forsaken me”. Jesus became all of our sin on that cross. God had to forsake his Son because of all that sin. God is too holy to look upon sin. Is 1:18, I once believed that Jesus was Yahweh. But when you look at the scriptures as a whole, there is no way. Oneness and Trinitarian believers are notorious for picking and choosing scriptures to suit their beliefs. But again if you take the word in its entirety, there is no way Jesus is Yahweh. Yes Jesus and Yahweh are ONE, ONE in purpose.
Quote (Woutlaw @ Nov. 28 2005,01:52) I agree Nick as someone who studied the Oneness doctrine for about 6 months now, i can surely say that it doesn't hold water. How can Jesus be God when the gospels testify that Jesus was tempted by satan. James 1:13 says that God cannot be temped nor does he tempt others. How can Jesus be God when God forsaked Jesus on the cross. The gospels testify that Jesus cried out “my God my God, why have you forsaken me”. Jesus became all of our sin on that cross. God had to forsake his Son because of all that sin. God is too holy to look upon sin. Is 1:18, I once believed that Jesus was Yahweh. But when you look at the scriptures as a whole, there is no way. Oneness and Trinitarian believers are notorious for picking and choosing scriptures to suit their beliefs. But again if you take the word in its entirety, there is no way Jesus is Yahweh. Yes Jesus and Yahweh are ONE, ONE in purpose.
I agree Woutlaw,
Oneness and Trinity theory are similar in some ways. Both deny that there is a Father God and his Son who are in relationship.Both go beyond the teaching of Christ into human speculation. Both must deny the teachings of Christ.
Trinity says they are part of the same God and Oneness says they are the same God. Both are wrong.
The gospel is simple, written for children and not egghead theologians. It is meant to be taken at face value and checked for truth agaianst other scripture for verification. One does not need to read between the lines for truth to be found.
Those false teachers who destroy the simple teachings risk the millstone around the neck and being thrown into the sea Christ promised them, and this is the fate of the Whore of Babylon.[Mt 18.6. Lk 17.2, Rev 18.23]
“egghead theologians” hahah, thats a new one. You're right Nick, they really do risk the millstone around their neck. I tell ya brotha its really really sad. But i don't think either will have an excuse on that day. The word is true and crystal clear.
take care
Hi Woutlaw,
The gospel is written for each individual to respond to it as the truth. Men who follow men will fall into the same pit as their leaders. We have to become sheep that only respond to the voice of the shepherd and will not listen to the voice of strangers.Nick and Wautlaw,
Thanks for the input but I think you both have both missed my point entirely. The issue is one of IDENTITY. In Zech 12:10 YHWH made a prediction about himself:“and they shall look upon me [YHWH] whom they have pierced
YHWH is speaking and uses the word “me” in conjunction to being the one that will be pierced. The prophecy was made by YHWH of YHWH, AND Jesus the Nazarene fulfilled it on the cross, John tells us so. This cannot be fulfilled on behalf of YHWH. That is not a legitimate explaination. Neither is “they were one in purpose”. It's an issue of identity. YHWH would be identified by the piercing.
Also, in the original Hebrew text, the first and last letters of the Hebrew alphabet, ALEPH and TAV are right in between ME and WHOM.
…and they will look to me ALEPH TAV whom they have pierced…
Yahweh's title, 'The Aleph and the Tav', is seen in the Book of Revelation (Alpha and Omega in the Greek).
Isaiah 40
3 The voice of one who cries, Prepare you in the wilderness the way of Yahweh; make level in the desert a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low; and the uneven shall be made level, and the rough places a plain: 5 and the glory of Yahweh shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together; for the mouth of Yahweh has spoken it.John the Baptist prepared the way for Yahweh.
John the Baptist prepared the way for The ALEPH and the TAV.
John the Baptist prepared the way for The FIRST and the LAST.
John the Baptist prepared the way for the BEGINNING and the END.
Yes berean2005 I agree with that, however, Messiah said that NO MAN has seen THE FATHER ELOHIM at anytime John 1:18; John 6:46) , and that the Son is the only one that has declared HIM( The Father).
The proves ALL my other posts on this forum correct, that the FATHER and the SON have the same NAME, otherwise Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21) that whosoever shall call on the Name of YAHWEH SHALL BE SAVED. compared to Acts 4:10-12 as there is NONE OTHER NAME( singular) given among men WHEREBY WE MUST BE SAVED.
Either the Father and the Son have the same name or otherwise these two texts would contradict, and the same with Paul in Rom.10:9-13 for he too quoted from Joel 2:32). However, these texts do NOT say that Yahweh-shua Messiah the Son is the Father, however, it proves that the Son has the same name as the Father.
Otherwise, what sence would it even make for Messiah to even mention or distinguish Himself from the FATHER John 3:35, and even say that “” for My FATHER is Greater than I( Messiah-the Son) John 14:28 ??
Eliyah C. still on the net!
Thoughts on Zechariah 12:10:
I agree with what WhatIsTrue said.
On this passage Gesenius’ Hebrew Grammar, by E. Kautzsch and A. E. Cowley (1949 reprint), says on page 446, in footnote 1 belonging to section 138 (2) e, the following:
“In Zechariah 12:10 also, instead of the unintelligible e·la´i eth a·sher´, we should probably read el-a·sher´, and refer the passage to this class.”In two Hebrew manuscripts the written text reads e·la´i eth a·sher´ (“to me whom”), but the marginal note reads e·la´iw eth a·sher´ (“to him [or, to the one] whom”). LXX reads: “to me for the reason that”; Vg, “to me whom”; Sy, “to me for him whom”; Th, “to him whom.” See German Bible translation by Emil F. Kautzsch (1890): “To that one whom.”
As well, as WhatIsTrue's article pointed out, looking at what John 19:37 says, and how he quoted Zech 12:10, must be considered.
While disagreeing on how Zechariah 12:10 should be translated, none disagree on how John 19:37 is translated. Why would the Bible writer misquote it?Secondly,
Even if Zechariah 12:10 should be translated that way, it means very little. Jehovah could be spoken of as being pierced when his Son was tortured and put to death. Other Bible references speak similarly. When Simeon met Joseph and Mary in the Temple when they came to consecrate Jesus, he said to Mary, “yes, a long sword will be run through the soul of you yourself.” Commentators freely admit that this statement refers to the grief that Mary will endure as she watched her son be tortured and killed.
If “me” is the true reading in Zechariah 12:10, then the Bible tells us that both the hearts of God the Father of the Messiah and Mary the mother of the Messiah were pierced when Jesus their Son was tortured and killed.Yet, no one believes that Mary was literally pierced.
david
ZECHARIAH 12:10 (NASB)
10″I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.ZECHARIAH 12:10 (KJV)
10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.ZECHARIAH 12:10 (NKJV)
10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.ZECHARIAH 12:10 (NIV)
10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.ZECHARIAH 12:10 (NIV-UK)
10 And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.ZECHARIAH 12:10 (NLV)
10″Then I will pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on the family of David and on all the people of Jerusalem. They will look on me whom they have pierced and mourn for him as for an only son. They will grieve bitterly for him as for a firstborn son who has died.ZECHARIAH 12:10 (ESV)
10″And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.ZECHARIAH 12:10 (ASV)
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born.ZECHARIAH 12:10 (YLT)
10And I have poured on the house of David, And on the inhabitant of Jerusalem, A spirit of grace and supplications, And they have looked unto Me whom they pierced, And they have mourned over it, Like a mourning over the only one, And they have been in bitterness for it, Like a bitterness over the first-born.ZECHARIAH 12:10 (Darby)
10And I will pour upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and of supplications; and they shall look on me whom they pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for an only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.Enough said.
Quote While disagreeing on how Zechariah 12:10 should be translated, none disagree on how John 19:37 is translated. Why would the Bible writer misquote it?
This is a weak point. It's not a misquote at all David. If you look carefully at the wording of the many NT writer's citations of OT scripture you will find that they rarely quote it verbatim. Although paraphrasing is relatively common, its source is always recognisable.Quote Even if Zechariah 12:10 should be translated that way, it means very little. Jehovah could be spoken of as being pierced when his Son was tortured and put to death. Other Bible references speak similarly. When Simeon met Joseph and Mary in the Temple when they came to consecrate Jesus, he said to Mary, “yes, a long sword will be run through the soul of you yourself.” Commentators freely admit that this statement refers to the grief that Mary will endure as she watched her son be tortured and killed.
If “me” is the true reading in Zechariah 12:10, then the Bible tells us that both the hearts of God the Father of the Messiah and Mary the mother of the Messiah were pierced when Jesus their Son was tortured and killed.Yet, no one believes that Mary was literally pierced.
When there is no escaping the obvious implications of a verse detractors will usually allegorise it away. Not surprisingly, that's what David has resorted to here. Suffice to say that the VAST majority of scholars disagree with his interpretation.JOHN THE BAPTIST PREPARED THE WAY FOR YAHWEH
Isaiah 40
3 The voice of one who cries, Prepare you in the wilderness the way of Yahweh; make level in the desert a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low; and the uneven shall be made level, and the rough places a plain: 5 and the glory of Yahweh shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together; for the mouth of Yahweh has spoken it.JOHN THE BAPTIST PREPARED THE WAY FOR YAHWEH
John the Baptist prepared the way for The ALEPH and the TAV.
John the Baptist prepared the way for The FIRST and the LAST.
John the Baptist prepared the way for the BEGINNING and the END.
The prophecy of the Messiah was all about Yahweh Himself coming into the world to save us.
The Great King who was born of the virgin Mary was the KING of GLORY Himself.
Psalm 24:7-10
Lift up your heads, you gates; Be lifted up, you everlasting doors: The King of glory will come in. Who is the King of glory? Yahweh strong and mighty, Yahweh mighty in battle. Lift up your heads, you gates; Yes, lift them up, you everlasting doors: The King of glory will come in. Who is this King of glory? Yahweh of Hosts, He is the King of glory. Selah.YAHWEH IS THE KING
YAHWEH IS SALVATION
There is NO ONE besides Him.
Yahweh is ONE.
Praise Yahweh
Berean2005
Hey Is 1:18:
Is there anything else you can tell us about Nick?As for your last post, I'm simply saying that your argument is extremely week as it proves nothing. I can show a few Bibles that translate it differently and say: “Enough said,” as well.
Does that prove that I'm right? Not any more than your quoting your preferred Bibles and saying you're right.
It's true that the vast majority of scholars disagree with those interepretations. Would you like a list of other things that “the vast majority of scholars” have also wrongly believed? It's quite an extensive list.Here is what bothers me about your last comment.
When you want to understand a Bible verse, it often helps to look at other similar verses that speak about the same things. Right? Yet you say:Quote When there is no escaping the obvious implications of a verse detractors will usually allegorise it away. Not surprisingly, that's what David has resorted to here. Yes, I have resorted to looking at a similar scripture that talks about the an extremely similar thing thus proving without a shadow of a doubt that in the Bible it is not unusual to use the word 'piercing' in that way with reference to others invovling Jesus' death. Is that scripture related? It is THE MOST related scripture. Of course, in this case, you could only attack my methods of proving you wrong and not the actual argument itself.
I understand your agitation at what I pointed out as it is detrimental to your argument.D dddd avid is another wack-job! u can`t reason with the brain washed who use bible translations from HELL! An Occultist invented his translation! Its documented! Shall i pull the links up again? psycho!
what do you expect from an org. that profits over a BILLION dollars per year, no thats not a typo error; BILLION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! remember the link? david. you want more links?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
