John 17:5

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 09 2010,11:06)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 08 2010,16:32)

1) Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son, Thy throne O God is for ever and ever:
a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. (Rev.3:21)

Hi Ed,

What does that mean then? “But to the Son…..(and then Paul just out of the blue starts talking about God?)

But to the Son WHAT? What is “unto the Son”?

Do you see it is not a complete thought? It's like I said, “But to Gene, “Your throne Ed is cool”. The last part is a complete thought in that Ed's throne is cool, but the first part is incomplete and out of place. What did I mean by “But unto Gene…..”?

mike

Hi Mike,

Though my explanation may be dissimilar from Gene's in the wording,
our understanding of “The Big Picture” is very similar in it's presentation.

The Son helps establish God's throne through his sceptre of righteousness.
Mathew 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Isaiah 45:12-13 I(YHVH) have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands,
have stretched out the heavens(Isaiah 44:24), and all their host have I commanded.
I(YHVH) have raised him(Jesus) up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways:
he shall build my [HolyCity=117](Rev.21:2-3), and he shall let go my captives,
not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of Hosts. [Captives of sin, Gene]

God bless
Ed J (Rev.3:21)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

September 9, 2010 at 2:17 am#215545

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 09 2010,11:17)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 09 2010,04:32)

They have done the same butchery with Col.1:16-7,
they 'falsely' attribute these verses to Jesus as well!

Hi Ed,

Col 1:15 is definitely about Jesus, right? And 16 and 17 are about “someone”, then verse 18 starts off with the word “AND”……and 18 is also definitely about Jesus, right?

1:15 He is the image of God….
1:16 For by him all things were created….
1:17 He is before all things…..
1:18 AND he is the firstborn from the dead….

Doesn't that “AND” indicate that Paul is speaking of the same person in 1:18 that he started speaking about in 1:15?

mike

Hi Mike,

Mathew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye
shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
2 Tm.2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth
faithful: he(God) cannot deny himself.

“God The Father” is the “Subject” in Col.1:12-20 and Jesus is the Object; English 101.
I will take the liberty to insert both the subject and object into the text for 'your' understanding.
Normally I remove the numbers, but for explanation purposes, my “Free Will” will leave them in for you.
There is no inconsistencies with the rest of “The Bible” viewing Col.1:12-20 in the light of my view. (Eph.5:13)

Col.1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet
to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light (Romans 8:17):
13: Who (YHVH our God) hath delivered us from the power of darkness,
and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son(switching to object):
14: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15: Who(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God(YHVH), the firstborn of every creature:
16: For by him(YHVH)(switching back to the subject) were all things created, that are in heaven,
and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
or powers: all things were created by him(YHVH), and for him(YHVH):
17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist.
18: And he(Jesus)(switching back to the object) is the head of the body, the church:
who is the beginning(the preeminence of God), the firstborn from the dead (Romans 1:4);
that in all things he(Jesus) might have the preeminence(over all his brethren).
19: For it pleased the Father that in him(Jesus) should all fulness dwell;
20: And, having made peace through the blood of his(Jesus) cross,
by him(YHVH) to reconcile all things unto himself(2Cor.5:18);
by him, whether things in earth, or things in heaven.

Lets now look at verse 16 and verse 17 with greater scrutiny…

16: For by him(YHVH) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (Rev.4:11)

Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) created these things “in Heaven”…

1. God's throne
2. God's dominion
3. God's principality
4. God's power
5. God himself

Can you not see the flaw in 'your' assertion?

Now let's take a closer look at verse 17…

17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist.

Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) is before YHVH himself?
Would 'you' have us to believe by Jesus (falsely) all things consist?
How can you reconcile this belief without saying Jesus is God?

Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

September 9, 2010 at 3:41 am#215556

Blocked

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 09 2010,13:17)

Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) created these things “in Heaven”…

1. God's throne
2. God's dominion
3. God's principality
4. God's power
5. God himself

Can you not see the flaw in 'your' assertion?

I can see the flaw in yours. None of those things you list are created things first of all. And I NEVER say things were created BY Jesus, but THROUGH Jesus. Just like Paul teaches: All things are FROM God THROUGH Jesus.

So why do you think that Paul would speak of two different persons using the word “AND” to connect sentences, yet expect us to KNOW he was speaking of two different persons? Your argument is not only weak, but insists the we change the rules of basic understanding of literature.

You said:

Quote

17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist.

1. Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) is before YHVH himself?
2. Would 'you' have us to believe by Jesus (falsely) all things consist?
3. How can you reconcile this belief without saying Jesus is God?

1. No, I would have you understand that it should be clearly understood that when Paul says “before ALL things”, he means with the exception of the Father. Although he didn't take the time to point it out in this scripture, he did in another,

1 Corinthians 15:27
For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

2. I would have you believe that THROUGH Jesus, all things consist.

3. I think #1 and #2 answer #3 sufficiently. There is nothing being said that WOULD mean “Jesus is God”.

Now your turn, Ed. Please actually answer the question I asked. What does “But unto the Son” mean?

mike

September 9, 2010 at 5:26 am#215583

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 09 2010,14:41)

Now your turn, Ed. Please actually answer the question I asked. What does “But unto the Son” mean?

mike

Hi Mike,

Hebrews 1:6-8 states… 6: And again, when he bringeth in the
firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7: And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8: But unto the Son, Thy throne O God is for ever and ever:
a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Once again we start with God being the subject in verse 6.
I once again took the liberty of removing 2 commas from verse 8
along with two of the three added words, inserted into the text by the translators.

We start with the first part of verse 6 addressing “the Son”,
then with the conjunctive word 'and' the focus switches to the angels.
The focus continues to be the Angels in verse 7, then starting in verse 8 the addressing switches
once again again back to “the Son” with the focus also switching from the angels to God and his kingdom.

so: 'But unto the Son' therefore means the attention is now
on the son rather that of the Angels. I hope you found my answer satisfactory?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

September 9, 2010 at 5:31 am#215584

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 09 2010,14:41)

Now your turn, Ed. Please actually answer the question I asked. What does “But unto the Son” mean?

mike

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Edit))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Hi Mike,

so: 'But unto the Son' therefore means the attention is now
on the son rather than that of the Angels. I hope you found my answer satisfactory?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

September 9, 2010 at 1:57 pm#215632

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 09 2010,13:17)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 09 2010,11:17)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 09 2010,04:32)

They have done the same butchery with Col.1:16-7,
they 'falsely' attribute these verses to Jesus as well!

Hi Ed,

Col 1:15 is definitely about Jesus, right? And 16 and 17 are about “someone”, then verse 18 starts off with the word “AND”……and 18 is also definitely about Jesus, right?

1:15 He is the image of God….
1:16 For by him all things were created….
1:17 He is before all things…..
1:18 AND he is the firstborn from the dead….

Doesn't that “AND” indicate that Paul is speaking of the same person in 1:18 that he started speaking about in 1:15?

mike

Hi Mike,

Mathew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye
shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
2 Tm.2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth
faithful: he(God) cannot deny himself.

Lets now look at verse 16 and verse 17 with greater scrutiny…

Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) created these things “in Heaven”…

1. God's throne
2. God's dominion
3. God's principality
4. God's power
5. God himself

Can you not see the flaw in 'your' assertion?

Now let's take a closer look at verse 17…

17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist.

Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

EDJ……………You have rightly posted it, I see it that way also. That also backs the Old Testament that GOD (ALONE) and BY HIMSELF Created everything in existence. So we have both the Old and the New in agreement. Good Job EDJ. But Mike is a hard nut to crack. He is totally brain washed by the false teaching of Preexistence of Jesus. But who knows He is also intelligent and may reconsider his position. Good Post from you (INFLUENCED) WILL,

Peace and love to you and yours………………………gene

September 10, 2010 at 2:38 am#215683

Blocked

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 09 2010,16:31)

The focus continues to be the Angels in verse 7, then starting in verse 8 the addressing switches
once again again back to “the Son” with the focus also switching from the angels to God and his kingdom.

so: 'But unto the Son' therefore means the attention is now
on the son rather than that of the Angels. I hope you found my answer satisfactory?

Hi Ed,

You assert that the angels are the focus in 7. But then 8 switches focus to the Son……. JUST TO SPEAK ABOUT GOD – NOT THE SON? That doesn't even make sense. Why switch focus to the Son if your next lines aren't going to be about the Son? Let's look at it even closer:

7: And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8: But unto the Son, [he saith] Thy throne O God is for ever and ever:
a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Do you see it? 7 says, To the angels HE SAITH….. Then 8 shows a contrast between what HE SAITH to the angels and what HE SAITH to the Son.

To Ed J I say, “Thank you for actually attempting to answer my question DIRECTLY”. But to Gene, “Stop just agreeing with others and answer the questions yourself.”

Do you see that in the context and flow of the wording, there is an implied “I say” right after “Gene”? To Ed I SAY (this)…… BUT TO GENE (that)…….

It is the same with verse 8 here.

mike

September 10, 2010 at 3:30 pm#215772

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 10 2010,00:57)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 09 2010,13:17)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 09 2010,11:17)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 09 2010,04:32)

They have done the same butchery with Col.1:16-7,
they 'falsely' attribute these verses to Jesus as well!

Hi Ed,

Col 1:15 is definitely about Jesus, right? And 16 and 17 are about “someone”, then verse 18 starts off with the word “AND”……and 18 is also definitely about Jesus, right?

1:15 He is the image of God….
1:16 For by him all things were created….
1:17 He is before all things…..
1:18 AND he is the firstborn from the dead….

Doesn't that “AND” indicate that Paul is speaking of the same person in 1:18 that he started speaking about in 1:15?

mike

Hi Mike,

Mathew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye
shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
2 Tm.2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth
faithful: he(God) cannot deny himself.

Lets now look at verse 16 and verse 17 with greater scrutiny…

Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) created these things “in Heaven”…

1. God's throne
2. God's dominion
3. God's principality
4. God's power
5. God himself

Can you not see the flaw in 'your' assertion?

Now let's take a closer look at verse 17…

17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist.

Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

EDJ……………You have rightly posted it, I see it that way also. That also backs the Old Testament that GOD (ALONE) and BY HIMSELF Created everything in existence. So we have both the Old and the New in agreement. Good Job EDJ. But Mike is a hard nut to crack. He is totally brain washed by the false teaching of Preexistence of Jesus. But who knows He is also intelligent and may reconsider his position. Good Post from you (INFLUENCED) WILL,

Peace and love to you and yours………………………gene

Hi Gene,

Thanks Gene!, I don't mind using “Free Will” to
establishing what the bible says “IS TRUTH”
Know, I was not at all influenced to Post!
Preexistence is “Bible Truth”=117 too!

“YHVH is GOD”=117
PSALM 117 is [The Bible's Center Chapter],
the [smallest chapter] of the [LARGEST BOOK]!

Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Eccl.9:12-16)

September 10, 2010 at 4:21 pm#215780

Participant

EDJ……….I agree preexistence is bible truth , But the question is it a PLANNED PURPOSE, or a Past existence is the question that we are addressing here. Mike and other Preexistences believe the Jesus Existed as a Real (Being of some Kind) But i believe He did Not exist but only in the Plan and Purpose of GOD. No one has given any Past association of Jesus' (REAL) existence , just forcing the text as Mike is doing to come to those conclusions. What i have ask mike for is (SPECIFIC) texts to show this. He and other have fail to produce it, just as you have failed to produce a (Specific Text) that says a Man Has a (FREE WILL) (IN) HIM. You assume because a man has (LIBERTY) to exercise His (influenced) WILL equal Him having a FREE WILL Operating (IN) HIM. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene

September 10, 2010 at 4:36 pm#215781

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2010,13:38)

To Ed J I say, “Thank you for actually attempting to answer my question DIRECTLY”. But to Gene, “Stop just agreeing with others and answer the questions yourself.”

Mike……..What is wrong with agreeing with someone when you believe what he says on a Subject is right?, if you would do that once in a while maybe you could come to see things better. I love it when someone see something the way i do or better said, i see it as they do. At least we are agreeing on something right? I believe EdJ gave you a right and most accurate explanation of Col , and maybe my explanation was not clear enough for you but what he Posted i certainly agree with.

You have failed to prove you point Mike so why can't you accept what we (EDJ, Martian, barely, Nick, Shimmer, myself and others have pointed out to you?

Mike no one is trying to beat you down brother, but we believe you are wrong on this one brother. in our opinions

peace and love to you and yours……………….gene

September 10, 2010 at 9:31 pm#215809

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2010,13:38)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 09 2010,16:31)

The focus continues to be the Angels in verse 7, then starting in verse 8 the addressing switches
once again again back to “the Son” with the focus also switching from the angels to “God” and his kingdom.

so: 'But unto the Son' therefore means the attention is now
on the son rather than that of the Angels. I hope you found my answer satisfactory?

Hi Ed,

(1)You assert that the angels are the focus in 7. (2)But then 8 switches focus to the Son…

mike

Hi Mike,

1) Yes
2) Let's try to be accurate; OK?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

September 10, 2010 at 10:32 pm#215820

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 11 2010,03:21)

EDJ……….I agree preexistence is bible truth , But the question is it a PLANNED PURPOSE, or a Past existence is the question that we are addressing here.

peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene

Hi Gene,

Do you really?

If you had the plans and the property to build a house,
would you tell others that the house preexisted?
Not unless a model house did exist; right?

God bless
Ed J (Mathew 13:13)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

September 10, 2010 at 11:57 pm#215829

Participant

EDJ…………No bible verse says anyone (PREEXISTED) that i know of except God himself, SO to Say one is foreknown or even foreordained is not saying they were alive or preexisted as a Being, and even if you had a MODEL that still is (NOT) the REAL House right so we can say the (REAL) House did not exist until it existed. We can say the same about Jesus and ourselves also none of us existed except in the Preplanned will of GOD. and He when the time was right he “brought us into existence, just as it say he did Jesus. Peter put it exactly right Jesus was “FOREORDAINED (BUT) was MANIFESTED IN (OUR) TIME”. It is Just that simple why don't people believe that.

Gods plan all along was to save Humanity by a Man of His choosing. since sin entered by MAN by Man it was removed. Just as GOD said back at the beginning in genesis, the (SEED) of the Women would bruise the head of the serpent. That (SEED) OF THE WOMEN was the (MAN) Jesus. Now if he was a SEED of the WOMEN, then FROM a WOMEN He CAME Just as we did. All who separate Jesus identity with ours (ARE) Antichrists.

peace and love……………………………….gene

September 11, 2010 at 1:22 am#215847

barley

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 08 2010,16:13)

Hi barley,

I see NOTHING figurative anywhere in John 17:2-6. Jesus says exactly what he means. If you want, we can discuss why YOU would think any of those verses are figurative. Is that what it will take for you to just answer the question of why you think 17:5 must be figurative? Because I see this as nothing more than a “I can't really intelligently answer to that scripture, so I must stall under the pretense of wanting to know every single step Mike takes to come to his conclusions”.

It's been done before by Martian…….just about the time he ran away. “What? Mike doesn't want to use a bunch of time and words explaining this and that? Okay, that's my excuse to put my tail between my legs and run.”

You said:

Quote

Because it would only be your opinion against mine

Actually, it would be a case of a literal scripture that you have no reason whatsoever to think is figurative…..except that if it was figurative, you could hang on to your doctrine. I noticed you ignored that one. And there is no “figurative” wiggle room for you there.If you can't come up with an answer toI think 17:5 is literal. why you think it is figurative, then just answer me in the Phil 2 thread.

mike

Mikeboll,

Quote

I see NOTHING figurative anywhere in John 17:2-6. Jesus says exactly what he means.

Nothing at all?

Not even verse six?

You are saying that the total sum of Jesus Christ's ministry is to simply tell the name of God to the lost sheep of the house of Israel?

All the rest of what he said was filler, of no spiritual value?

Jesus Christ used the figure of speech synecdoche. The one part of God, his name, is used to represent all that JC made known about his Father.

Quote

If you want, we can discuss why YOU would think any of those verses are figurative.

Ok, since I already did in my previous post I presume it is your turn to tell me why you believe John 17:2-6 is entirely literal and what it is that passage is telling us.

John 17:2-6

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

So then JC meant flesh, meat?

JC has been given power over all meat?

Ok, is that what you mean is literal according to you?

What is the spiritual significance of that?

What is the purpose for that information to be in the scripture?

Ok, verse 4.

Jesus Christ accomplished all the work that God gave him to do. Jesus Christ is well aware of all the works that are in scripture for him to do. This includes his death. That was clear from Genesis 3:15 and other verses. But JC had not died yet. So, JC at this time has not finished all the works that God gave him to do.

Please let us know how it is that these verses are literal.

Quote

Is that what it will take for you to just answer the question of why you think 17:5 must be figurative?

I believe that John 17:5 is figurative, as I proposed. The figure of speech anticipation. God anticipated Jesus Christ's success in redeeming mankind. There fore He and he could speak of it as a done deal.

Quote

Because I see this as nothing more than a “I can't really intelligently answer to that scripture, so I must stall under the pretense of wanting to know every single step Mike takes to come to his conclusions”.

Well, if you are right about your interpretation of this scripture, is it too much to ask how you reached this conclusion?

You have acknowledged that Jesus Christ used figures of speech in communicating God's logos to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

One of his favorite figures of speech is the parable. He utilized them quite frequently.

Quote

See Proverbs 6:19,

A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

you aren't doing this are you?

See Proverbs 15:12

A scorner loveth not one that reproveth him: neither will he go unto the wise.

Have you been scorning Martian?

Proverbs 15:18,

A wrathful man stirreth up strife: but he that is slow to anger appeaseth strife.

I am not detecting a little anger in you am I?

I would rather not believe that you are a fool. Misguided, uninstructed, maybe, but not a fool. Proverbs tells us that arguing with a fool is a waste of time.

Quote

You said:

Quote

Because it would only be your opinion against mine

Actually, it would be a case of a literal scripture that you have no reason whatsoever to think is figurative…..except that if it was figurative, you could hang on to your doctrine.

One of my responsibilities before God is II Timothy 2:15.

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Another is II Peter 1:20,

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

It is my job to let scripture speak for itself. At times it is literal and at other times it is figurative. It is my job to figure that out. When I do that then I am closer to the original intent of a passage of scripture.

Quote

I think 17:5 is literal.

If that is as far as you want to look at it, that is your choice.

Quote

If you can't come up with an answer toI think 17:5 is literal. why you think it is figurative, then just answer me in the Phil 2 thread.

I have already given you some reasons why I think it is figurative. Evidently, you do not agree.

I have shown you several reasons why verses 2-6 contain figures of speech. You might want to reread this post and reconsider if you are correct in assuming that it is all literal.

As far as your Philippians 2 thread, I might look at is sometime.

barley

September 12, 2010 at 3:05 am#215991

Blocked

Quote (barley @ Sep. 11 2010,12:22)

Ok, since I already did in my previous post I presume it is your turn to tell me why you believe John 17:2-6 is entirely literal and what it is that passage is telling us.

Hi barley,

No, I'm not angry at all. A little frustrated at times…….like when I tried to teach my son how to tie his shoes and he just couldn't grasp it for awhile…..but not angry. I still have hope for all of you “non-preexisters”. After all, my son did eventually learn to tie his shoes.

John 17:2 NIV
2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.

Apparently the NIV scholars didn't think “flesh” had any secret hidden meaning either. It simply means Jesus has been given all authority over mankind. We all belong to God, but God had given Jesus certain ones out of the world as his own. Jesus revealed God to them more completely and directly than he revealed God to all the rest of the people that he spoke in parables to.

God, the “President”, had in effect given Jesus, the “Secretary of War”, his “Generals”. Jesus then charged those Generals with the task of raising troops and waging war against all those who were ignorant of the gospel. They were armed with only two weapons: the Holy Spirit through which God enabeld them to do miracles and thus earning believers, and the truth of God as learned through His Secretary of War.

The “war” analogy is probably not my best, but it's late and that's what came to me……and that's how I understand 17:2 without any “figuratives”. Any questions so far?

mike

September 12, 2010 at 3:54 am#215997

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 11 2010,10:57)

Peter put it exactly right Jesus was “FOREORDAINED (BUT) was MANIFESTED IN (OUR) TIME”. It is Just that simple why don't people believe that.

Hi Gene,

Here's how the NIV puts it:

20He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

All that says is that Jesus is the one God had chosen to save the world through before the world was even created and that Peter and some others got to see that one in person. It doesn't even imply non-preexistence…….let alone exclude preexistence.

I believe the scriptures Gene, it's just that you think that scripture says something it doesn't say.

mike

September 12, 2010 at 3:58 am#215998

Blocked

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 11 2010,08:31)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2010,13:38)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 09 2010,16:31)

so: 'But unto the Son' therefore means the attention is now
on the son rather than that of the Angels. I hope you found my answer satisfactory?

Hi Ed,

(1)You assert that the angels are the focus in 7. (2)But then 8 switches focus to the Son…

mike

Hi Mike,

1) Yes
2) Let's try to be accurate; OK?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Okay Ed…..my mistake. How about answering the point I make?

7: And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8: But unto the Son, [he saith] Thy throne O God is for ever and ever:
a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Do you see it? 7 says, To the angels HE SAITH….. Then 8 shows a contrast between what HE SAITH to the angels and what HE SAITH to the Son.

To Ed J I say, “Thank you for actually attempting to answer my question DIRECTLY”. But to Gene, “Stop just agreeing with others and answer the questions yourself.”

Do you see that in the context and flow of the wording, there is an implied “I say” right after “Gene”? To Ed I SAY (this)…… BUT TO GENE (that)…….

It is the same with verse 8 here. Do you see a reason Paul would say, “But unto the Son” if he didn't mean, “But unto the Son HE SAITH?

mike

September 12, 2010 at 6:55 am#216013

JustAskin

Participant

Gene,

Can you show a Scripture verse (or several really) that shows that God pre-existed? (p.s. to avoid misunderstanding: I am asking for some verse that qualify – and obviously there are, so I am not challenging you (at this point) just asking you to qualify your statement that God PreExisted)

September 12, 2010 at 10:58 pm#216147

Participant

JA………Quite simple read Genesis 1 and allow common sense to go to work , Here is some Help IF God said Let there be light He must have preexisted right?, In John 1:1 we read in (the)( Definite Article there implies the beginning of (all) thing created), beginning was GOD right, again common sense would demand he preexisted then right? IMO

peace and love to you and yours brother……………………………..gene

September 13, 2010 at 2:51 am#216176