John 17:5

[mikeboll64]

Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 03 2010,13:02)

Rom 1:25(a) For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie,

Hi David and Irene,

2 Timothy 4 NIV
1In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

This is what I've been telling these guys from the start.  It's NOT about your wishes to have Jesus be the same as you……it's about what the scriptures say.

A few insults is a very trivial “hardship” compared to what other Christians have endured.

peace and love,
mike

[GeneBalthrop]

Mike……….Changing the truth of GOD into a LIE is exactly what Trinitarians and Preexistences do. Go Read and study 2 Ths 2…… They create a false GOD or by insisting Jesus created everything then the half wayer's, the Preexistences change it somewhat to say God did it (through) Jesus but they still are robbing God of His Glory which he said He gives to (NO) Man and the includes Jesus THE SON OD MAN , Jesus is no thief as you Preexistences are making him out to be. What is amazing t me is how you people apply that scripture to others and that is exactly what you are doing. God read 2 Ths 2, and this time study it Mike , if you try hard enough you can see what the Man of Sin really is “it is an (IMAGE) not a real person but an (IMAGE) being Created about Jesus and you are sharing in that Creation Mike , come out of it ask God to Show you brother. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………………………gene

[Baker]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 03 2010,14:51)

Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 03 2010,13:02) Rom 1:25(a) For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, Hi David and Irene, 2 Timothy 4 NIV 1In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry. This is what I've been telling these guys from the start.  It's NOT about your wishes to have Jesus be the same as you……it's about what the scriptures say.   A few insults is a very trivial “hardship” compared to what other Christians have endured. peace and love, mike

Mike!  You are right that what we have endured is not at all like what the first Christians have, however, it was not right then, and it is not right now….It seems that some will only do what they want to do, and even change and add to Scripture.  I have made up my mind, if it does not change, and they will stop abusing and getting personal with a post, I will not post to them any longer…. both Martian and Gene have done so…..and we should never allow that….. If we all would stop posting with them, they would not have anything to say to us….at least I am hoping it would help..
I find it so amazing to say that we are lying when it is them that don't take Scriptures they way it is written…….Peace Irene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 04 2010,03:36)

the Preexistences change it somewhat to say God did it (through) Jesus but they still are robbing God of His Glory which he said He gives to (NO) Man and the includes Jesus THE SON OD MAN ,

Hi Gene,

We don't CHANGE it to say that……it just says that.  I would NEVER rob God of His glory and would never claim that Jesus even shares His glory.  

We have to get past this “God created everything alone” thing, Gene.

YES, YES, YES!  God DID create everything alone, just like the scriptures say.

Please answer the question I've been asking:

Did God create you THROUGH your parents or not, Gene?

mike

[terraricca]

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 04 2010,15:41)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 03 2010,14:51) Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 03 2010,13:02) Rom 1:25(a) For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, Hi David and Irene, 2 Timothy 4 NIV 1In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry. This is what I've been telling these guys from the start.  It's NOT about your wishes to have Jesus be the same as you……it's about what the scriptures say.   A few insults is a very trivial “hardship” compared to what other Christians have endured. peace and love, mike Mike!  You are right that what we have endured is not at all like what the first Christians have, however, it was not right then, and it is not right now….It seems that some will only do what they want to do, and even change and add to Scripture.  I have made up my mind, if it does not change, and they will stop abusing and getting personal with a post, I will not post to them any longer…. both Martian and Gene have done so…..and we should never allow that….. If we all would stop posting with them, they would not have anything to say to us….at least I am hoping it would help.. I find it so amazing to say that we are lying when it is them that don't take Scriptures they way it is written…….Peace Irene

hi Irene

I agree with you i started that for a while now,hope for better days

Pierre

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 05 2010,14:28)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 04 2010,03:36) the Preexistences change it somewhat to say God did it (through) Jesus but they still are robbing God of His Glory which he said He gives to (NO) Man and the includes Jesus THE SON OD MAN , Hi Gene, We don't CHANGE it to say that……it just says that.  I would NEVER rob God of His glory and would never claim that Jesus even shares His glory.   We have to get past this “God created everything along” thing, Gene. YES, YES, YES!  God DID create everything alone, just like the scriptures say. Please answer the question I've been asking: Did God create you THROUGH your parents or not, Gene? mike

Mike……….I have already answered that question, but i will again in case you did not read it. (NO) God did (NOT) create me “through” any thing, he created me (IN) my mothers womb, The Life in my cells was a direct act of GOD , they divided and grow by his life force in them. From the blood came oxygen and food for the cells to grow and multiply, but the force causing that is from GOD alone rather he incubates me in my mothers womb or creates a Body another way it still is GOD the Father whom is doing it alone. Trying to use this as a example for creating the world and everything in it through Jesus who never even existed at that time except in the mind and Plan of GOD is a giant stretch of the imagination. IMO

Also you have at least admitted God Created everything (ALONE) well that is a start anyway, now lets include the rest of that , and BY HIMSELF. Now if GOD did it (ALONE) as you now admit, and BY HIMSELF , how do you believe that he did it (THROUGH) JESUS, especially when Jesus never said He had any part of the creation.

Not only that but you use scripture where the same word are translated all kind of way and insist that is a Proof of your points, when nothing like that at all exists in the Old Testament or any of the other Apostles have every said that,either. Can't you understand that some indoctrinated Trinitarian just forced the text a little to make it come out that way, especially when the words used can have all kinds of different meanings attached to them.

Be like the Bereans search the OLD TESTAMENT for your Proof, please show where GOD did it Through anyone else but himself. I have yet to see one verse that says he did it that way in the OLD TESTAMENT. post it if it is there.

And please don't quote where GOD Said let (US) create man our IMAGE as meaning Jesus, That is also forcing the text to conform to the false teaching of Preexistences. Just present SOLID SCRIPTURES that back up you dogmas.

peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Mike, Irene, David, the rest…….What you don't realize is those things you are mentioning about people forming false teaching had started way back two thousand years ago , and you are now completely immersed into those false teachings. The Apostate Churches are those who perverted the words of GOD way back that is not something that is just now starting, you simply are going along with those false teachings. So to trying to put them off on People who are denying those teaching is nothing more then you agreeing with them and their corruption of scriptures to meet those teachings. You by doing this are supporting them and encouraging others to do so also. WE are told to (COME OUT OF HER) but your simply refusing to come out of those false teachings. IMO

peace and love to you all……………………….gene

[mikeboll64]

Gene:

Quote

Mike……….I have already answered that question, but i will again in case you did not read it. (NO) God did (NOT) create me “through” any thing, he created me (IN)  my mothers womb, The Life in my cells was a direct act of GOD , they divided and grow by his life force in them.

I guess I didn't read it Gene…..could you show me where you answered it before?  Sorry I missed it.  So you were not in any way created THROUGH your parents at all Gene?  God FORCED your Dad to be attracted to your Mom?  God FORCED your Mom to say “Yes” when your Dad popped the question?  Your being here had absolutely nothing to do with your parents own choices or sperm or eggs?

Gene:

Quote

Also you have at least admitted God Created everything (ALONE) well that is a start anyway,

I've never claimed different Gene.  God created everything alone THROUGH His Son.  What does John 1:3 mean?

3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Get it Gene?  Without your parents….YOU WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN MADE.

Gene:

Quote

especially when Jesus never said He had any part of the creation.

But Jesus DOES say he was in God's presence BEFORE the creation of the world.

Gene:

Quote

Be like the Bereans search the OLD TESTAMENT for your Proof, please show where GOD did it Through anyone else but himself. I have yet to see one verse that says he did it that way in the OLD TESTAMENT. post it if it is there.

How about this one Gene?

Micah 5:2 NIV
2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
      though you are small among the clans of Judah,
      out of you will come for me
      one who will be ruler over Israel,
      whose origins are from of old,
      from ancient times.”

Who do you think that is talking about Gene?

Gene:

Quote

And please don't quote where GOD Said let (US) create man our IMAGE as meaning Jesus,

Okay Gene, then WHO IS the one God was talking to when he said “Let US CREATE man in OUR image”?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 06 2010,03:05)

Mike, Irene, David, the rest…….What you don't realize is those things you are mentioning about people forming false teaching had started way back two thousand years ago ,

Gene,

I don't thing there is a “the rest”.  Most here have given up on answering your nonsense and have suggested that I do the same.  I am the last die-hard, I think.

But we're getting there brother…..don't worry.  I've saved some pretty big guns for last.

mike

[barley]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 09 2010,14:33)

Hi All, John 17:5  NRSV So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed. My main point is that the word “para”, which has been rendered as “in the presence of”, “together with”, and “at your side” is listed twice in the Greek text. IMO, the first is to indicate that Jesus wants to be glorified in his Father's presence.  The second explains that it is with the same glory he previously had in his Father's presence before the world existed that he now wants to be glorified with again. peace and love, mike

Mikeboll,

1.  Are we to take these words literally?  Why?

Or are these exact words you pointed out meant to understood in a figurative sense?  Which truths  eliminates the possibility that this statement by JC  are figurative?

2.  Are you eliminating all investigation into context?  If so, why?

Do you believe that context is necessary to clarify meaning?

3.  What does the word logos mean?

It would seem that the standard definition is,”the thoughts behind the words used.”   I see no problem with this definition considering the uses of the word, “logos,” in the scripture.  Do you?

Why is this important?  

Because we must look for the intent of the words used.  

We must first look at the words used, as you have done.  You have correctly pointed out that the word, para, alongside, is used twice in this verse.  

But what is the intended message?

So I ask,  is the intended message always word for word identical to the literal words?  

(If so, what is the literal words of Luke 12:34, “For where your treasure is, there will your heart [kardia, the literal organ that pumps blood] be also.”, teaching us?  

Or, Luke 22:20b, “…This cup is the new testament..”  If the cup is literally the new testament, then we should throw away Acts through Revelation and look for this cup.)

If so, what scriptural basis do you have for this conclusion?

Is the intended message the literal meaning of the words used?  Or, is there a figure of speech employed which deepens the learning available to the student?

               Why do I ask these questions?  

1.  Before I participate in any of your threads, I want to know the rules of your game.

2.  To find out if you seriously want a Biblical answer.  

3.  To detect foolish and unlearned questions, so that I might avoid them, for they gender strife.

I await your reply to the questions and discussion above.

If you seriously want a Biblical answer to your questions, I would be glad to help.

barley

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 06 2010,07:31)

Gene: Quote Mike……….I have already answered that question, but i will again in case you did not read it. (NO) God did (NOT) create me “through” any thing, he created me (IN)  my mothers womb, The Life in my cells was a direct act of GOD , they divided and grow by his life force in them. I guess I didn't read it Gene…..could you show me where you answered it before?  Sorry I missed it.  So you were not in any way created THROUGH your parents at all Gene?  God FORCED your Dad to be attracted to your Mom?  God FORCED your Mom to say “Yes” when your Dad popped the question?  Your being here had absolutely nothing to do with your parents own choices or sperm or eggs? Gene: Quote Also you have at least admitted God Created everything (ALONE) well that is a start anyway, I've never claimed different Gene.  God created everything alone THROUGH His Son.  What does John 1:3 mean? 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. Get it Gene?  Without your parents….YOU WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN MADE. Gene: Quote especially when Jesus never said He had any part of the creation. But Jesus DOES say he was in God's presence BEFORE the creation of the world. Gene: Quote Be like the Bereans search the OLD TESTAMENT for your Proof, please show where GOD did it Through anyone else but himself. I have yet to see one verse that says he did it that way in the OLD TESTAMENT. post it if it is there. How about this one Gene? Micah 5:2 NIV 2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,       though you are small among the clans of Judah,       out of you will come for me       one who will be ruler over Israel,       whose origins are from of old,       from ancient times.” Who do you think that is talking about Gene? Gene: Quote And please don't quote where GOD Said let (US) create man our IMAGE as meaning Jesus, Okay Gene, then WHO IS the one God was talking to when he said “Let US CREATE man in OUR image”? mike

MIke……….Your leaving off AGAIN (BY MYSELF). Why is that Mike? Is it because it eliminates anyone else being there with him.

Mike What barely said is right you takes things literally when it is not being applied that way in the text. Then when ask for any reason for GOD to do it that way , you have none to give as martian has ask you and others many times in his posts.

Mike debate with barely for a while maybe he can better explain this to you, then i can.

peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene

[GeneBalthrop]

MIke……….Again Origin does not necessarily mean a Preexistence (BEING) as you suppose it does, it can Just as easily mean a Planned event . Jesus was the First MAN from the HUMAN RACE GOD (Planned) to be perfected into a Son of GOD from the foundations of the earth, it was His PLAN from the very beginning, GOD said the (SEED) of the WOMEN would come one who would bruise the head of the serpent, Not a preexisting (Being) would come (through) a women and bruise his head as you preexistences think now did he?

Peace and love to you Mike…………………………..gene

[barley]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 07 2010,02:33)

MIke……….Again Origin does not necessarily mean a Preexistence (BEING) as you suppose it does, it can Just as easily mean a Planned event . Jesus was the First MAN from the HUMAN RACE GOD (Planned) to be perfected into a Son of GOD from the foundations of the earth, it was His PLAN from the very beginning,  GOD said the (SEED) of the WOMEN would come one who would bruise the head of the serpent, Not a preexisting (Being) would come (through) a women and bruise his head as you preexistences think now did he? Peace and love to you Mike…………………………..gene

Gene,

Good point.

barley

[Baker]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 06 2010,03:05)

Mike, Irene, David, the rest…….What you don't realize is those things you are mentioning about people forming false teaching had started way back two thousand years ago , and you are now completely immersed into those false teachings. The Apostate Churches are those who perverted the words of GOD way back that is not something that is just now starting, you simply are going along with those false teachings. So to trying to put them off on People who are denying those teaching is nothing more then you agreeing with them and their corruption of scriptures to meet those teachings. You by doing this are supporting them and encouraging others to do so also. WE are told to (COME OUT OF HER) but your simply refusing to come out of those false teachings. IMO peace and love to you all……………………….gene

Since you mention me, I will respond to you. First of all, whatever you are talking about is redicoulous to say the least. You are calling Jesus a liar. The trinity has nothing to do with the preexisting of Jesus. That will not make Jesus equal with Jehovah God at all. And it is Jesus talking and not us…. When He said He came from Heaven and that He has a glory with His Father and wants to go back to it. What do you think He is today? That is what He said He was before the world was, and not a plan of God at all….The first Christian did not even believe in the trinity. Whether they understood about where Jesus came from, History does not tell us….. It was Quintus Septimius Florence Tertullian who first came up with the trinity doctrine in the third century….And most bought it…. And still do. But to put that with the preexisting of Jesus is so false… You say that Apostolic Church understood the preexisting, that too is wrong. The Catholic Church never taught it…. I know we belonged and unfortunately I taught all of our children those doctrine and the preexisting is not one of them…. So your statement is false…..I support the truth and take it how it is written and it is….. You have no leg to stand on…. We however have proven it in SCRIPTURES…. NOT JUST ONE BUT SEVERAL OF THEM…… AND YOU ARE CALLING US LIARS…..get your facts straight before you make any kind of accusations….Whoever will believe it, will have to prove it to themself, I cannot do it for them. Am I responsible for that. Come on give me a break…. It is the responsibility of each one of us, to prove it….. Don't believe me, dust of your Bible and read it, and prove it….. That is what Mr. Armstrong used to say to us…. You know even though Mr. Armstrong did not have all of the truths, at least we learned to open our Bibles, that is more then what the Catholic Church ever did….Your accusation just simple is redicoulous to say the lest…. Yes, IMO is right and your OP is false…… get it??? My friend it is you who has to come out of those wrong believes…..Ask our Heavenly Father to show you, I did some time ago when someone told us about this. We did not always believed this….. But we call our-self lucky that God did not leave us in that state of unbelief….. One day you too will have to, until then Gene, have a nice live….and good luck, you need it….
Peace Irene

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 06 2010,10:05)

Mike, Irene, David, the rest…….What you don't realize is those things you are mentioning about people forming false teaching had started way back two thousand years ago , and you are now completely immersed into those false teachings. The Apostate Churches are those who perverted the words of GOD way back that is not something that is just now starting, you simply are going along with those false teachings. So to trying to put them off on People who are denying those teaching is nothing more then you agreeing with them and their corruption of scriptures to meet those teachings. You by doing this are supporting them and encouraging others to do so also. WE are told to (COME OUT OF HER) but your simply refusing to come out of those false teachings. IMO peace and love to you all……………………….gene

gene

i am the rest;;your IMO stands for nothing unless you believe you are standing on the shore of you own righteousness,

i will not wish you good or bad luck,i do not believe in either of them ,God knows ,and whatever he will do to you and your kind will be righteous.

it is your responsibility to find out the truth of his word,

remember the sword of God as two edges this is justice to the things we do and should have done and we did not do.

but you are not looking for truth only for opinions ,and that s the reason why you have no inside .

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 07 2010,02:21)

MIke……….Your leaving off AGAIN (BY MYSELF). Why is that Mike? Is it because it eliminates anyone else being there with him.

Gene,

Doesn't the word “alone” already mean “by myself”?  Doesn't “by myself” already mean “alone”?

Just out of curiosity Gene, how do you balance the “alone” and “by myself” with Hebrews 1:10?

10He also says,
  “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
     and the heavens are the work of your hands.

mike

[mikeboll64]

“Not necessarily” and “maybe it's figurative” is what Gene and barley and the rest have come up with since the start of these “pre-existent scripture” threads:

Gene:

Quote

MIke……….Again Origin does not necessarily mean a Preexistence

Okay Gene   His origins are from ancient times, but his “origin” was really just his beginning as a thought in God's head, right?  If that's the case, then aren't all of our origins from ancient times Gene?  So why go out of the way to make that claim about only Jesus?  Who else is it said about in the Bible?

barley:

Quote

1.  Are we to take these words literally?  Why? Or are these exact words you pointed out meant to understood in a figurative sense?  Which truths  eliminates the possibility that this statement by JC  are figurative?

So now we can't just show you the scriptures AND what the words therein mean, but we have to PROVE to you that they aren't “figurative”?    

I have a better idea…..why don't YOU prove to us that they ARE.  The real live PERSON Jesus says, “with the glory I HAD in your presence before the world”.

Was it a “figurative” glory…….or was it that Jesus was a “figurative” PERSON at the time?

You listed a couple of scriptures in which figurative language WAS used, barley.  How do we know they are figurative?  Because the context makes them HAVE TO BE figurative…..and we can make that decision with the wonderfully designed brains our God gave us, right?

1.  So what context in John 17:5 says these words HAVE TO BE figurative?

2.  Why CAN'T they be literal?

3.  And if they ARE figurative……what does the sentence actually mean?

mike

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 07 2010,11:16)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 07 2010,02:21) MIke……….Your leaving off AGAIN (BY MYSELF). Why is that Mike? Is it because it eliminates anyone else being there with him. Gene, Doesn't the word “alone” already mean “by myself”?  Doesn't “by myself” already mean “alone”? Just out of curiosity Gene, how do you balance the “alone” and “by myself” with Hebrews 1:10? 10He also says,   “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,      and the heavens are the work of your hands. mike

Mike……..Yes alone does mean by Himself, but the point is further driven in by God that (NO ONE) was with HIM. But you and the rest of the Preexistences don't truly believe GOD did it alone and by himself, Now do YOU , if you did really believe that them you would not say he did it through Jesus now would you. So In Fact you don't believe He did it (alone) right> because if you truly did believe that then you whole argument would die wouldn't it. So while you may say you believe those word you truly do not, because you say every thing was created (BY) Jesus, and then when that didn't work you changed it to (through) so either way (BY) or (THROUGH) it still means God did (NOT) did it (ALONE) and BY HIMSELF does it. So Who are we to believe you and your false reasonings or GOD the Father and what HE said?

You and the rest of the Preexistences haven't even began to deal or explain any logical reason for GOD to even do things the way you suppose he did. Was God trying to save a preexisting Being or was He dealing with mankind to achieve his ultimate GOD for mankind, not some preexisting being who already had eternal life in the first place.

God did not take the seed of angles or other beings of any kind but the seed of a women as He said would Happen in Genesis. But you say He was a MORPHED Being who then became a SEED of a Women. But (NOT) ONE SCRIPTURE DESCRIBES that event taking PLACE EVER.

Preexistences and Trinitarians are both the same they are Antichrists the do not believe Jesus came into existence as a flesh and blood human being , but they like the Gnostic's believe He was some super GOD or Being of some kind Morphed and disguised as a Human being in a flesh body. They and you are Antichrists and More you also are denying the Work GOD can do in a Purely Human Being who is in (every way) Identical to us. You destory the hope God wants us all to have in His power to perfect the human race and enable us to overcome (exactly) as Jesus did. You break the bond of exact identity with Jesus our brother. Who is and alway was ONLY ONE of US HUMANS> That is the Spirit (INTELLECT) of the Antichrist Spoken of by John. IMO

peace and love………………….gene

[Baker]

Gene!  All I am going to say to you and then I will never debate with you again.  There is no sense in debating with someone who is blind to the Scriptures that I find sacred.  You simple have to do away with many Scriptures to belief what you do, and I for one will never do so… Calling us Anti-Christ MMMMM You better look in to a mirror…… To say that Jesus was just like us, is so stupid to say the least…. For pete's sake He is the Son of God, and came forth from Almighty God, and not out of the dust of the earth…. Son of God and Son  of Man, but you just refuse to believe that…. So good luck and good written…Oh, one more thing, so the Intellect became flesh in John 1:14 That makes a lot of sense…You also don't understand what it says in Phil. 2:5 To you everything is Inellect, I guess……You don't want the truth you want Your theology….. Peace Irene

[barley]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 07 2010,11:34)

“Not necessarily” and “maybe it's figurative” is what Gene and barley and the rest have come up with since the start of these “pre-existent scripture” threads: Gene: Quote MIke……….Again Origin does not necessarily mean a Preexistence Okay Gene   His origins are from ancient times, but his “origin” was really just his beginning as a thought in God's head, right?  If that's the case, then aren't all of our origins from ancient times Gene?  So why go out of the way to make that claim about only Jesus?  Who else is it said about in the Bible? barley: Quote 1.  Are we to take these words literally?  Why? Or are these exact words you pointed out meant to understood in a figurative sense?  Which truths  eliminates the possibility that this statement by JC  are figurative? So now we can't just show you the scriptures AND what the words therein mean, but we have to PROVE to you that they aren't “figurative”?     I have a better idea…..why don't YOU prove to us that they ARE.  The real live PERSON Jesus says, “with the glory I HAD in your presence before the world”. Was it a “figurative” glory…….or was it that Jesus was a “figurative” PERSON at the time? You listed a couple of scriptures in which figurative language WAS used, barley.  How do we know they are figurative?  Because the context makes them HAVE TO BE figurative…..and we can make that decision with the wonderfully designed brains our God gave us, right? 1.  So what context in John 17:5 says these words HAVE TO BE figurative? 2.  Why CAN'T they be literal? 3.  And if they ARE figurative……what does the sentence actually mean? mike

Mikeboll,

I am asking you questions about your game because I am not sure that I want to play.  I want to find out if your are stacking the deck against any players.  I want to know if in case of equal cards, does the house win?

Below are some of my questions to you which you repeated in your reply.

Quote

1.  Are we to take these words literally?  Why? Or are these exact words you pointed out meant to understood in a figurative sense?  Which truths  eliminates the possibility that this statement by JC  are figurative?

You replied,

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So now we can't just show you the scriptures AND what the words therein mean, but we have to PROVE to you that they aren't “figurative”?

Did I ask you to prove that they are not figurative?

I did not.  

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1.  Are we to take these words literally?  Why? Or are these exact words you pointed out meant to understood in a figurative sense?  Which truths  eliminates the possibility that this statement by JC  are figurative?

I am not offering any kind of reply to your thread question until I understand the rules of your game.  My entire post was an inquiry regarding the rules of your game.

I asked you if we are to take these words literally?

So, are we?  

Are you requiring, that,  in this game of yours, that we are required to take these words literally?

If you are requiring that we take these words literally, why?

       Why are you requiring us to take these words literally?

I asked,

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are these exact words you pointed out meant to understood in a figurative sense?

I am not asking you to prove that they are not figurative, or to state it another way.  I am not asking you to prove that they are literal.

I am asking you if they are meant to be understood in a figurative sense.

Or, maybe I should rephrase it to ask, are you already sure that they are not figurative?

If you think that they are not figurative, how would you know?

I want you to tell me your rules for determining whether or not passages or phrases in the scripture are to be understood as literal or figurative.  

How do you determine if a phrase is to be understood as literal or figurative?

Your reply will help me to understand the rules to the game you want us to play.

If you cannot give me the rules of the game you are playing, then what assurances do I have that you won't change the rules in the middle of the game to your advantage?

I asked,

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Which truths  eliminates the possibility that this statement by JC  are figurative?

By what standard do you determine if a phrase is literal or figurative?

Make these rules clear to me so that I know how you would eliminate the possibility that these words are to be understood figuratively.

If John 17:5 is literal, I want to know by what standard, what set of logic, what rules do you use to determine that this passage is literal.  

If you cannot tell me why you would think that this passage is literal rather than figurative, then you are not telling me the rules you are requiring us to play by.

You stated,

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So now we can't just show you the scriptures AND what the words therein mean, but we have to PROVE to you that they aren't “figurative”?

NO, again, I am asking you to tell you by what standard, what measure, what rules of logic, do you make the determination whether a passage of scripture is literal or figurative.

Remember, this thread of yours is basically an invitation for others to join in.  I want to know your rules in this game of yours.  

Until I know how you determine what is literal and what is figurative in the scriptures, I
won't know how to play your game.

You said,

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Was it a “figurative” glory…….or was it that Jesus was a “figurative” PERSON at the time?

I want to know if you are a person that believes if all scripture is literal or not.

If you cannot tell me, then you are leaving out rules that I need to know to play.

I also want to know how you came to that conclusion.

If you cannot tell me, then you are leaving out rules that I need to know to play.

I not asking you ,”Are you still beating your wife?  I am not asking
you, “Do you enjoy cheating on your wife?”

I am asking your how you determine if a passage is literal or figurative.

You stated,

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You listed a couple of scriptures in which figurative language WAS used, barley.  How do we know they are figurative?  Because the context makes them HAVE TO BE figurative…..and we can make that decision with the wonderfully designed brains our God gave us, right?

OK, you obviously agree with me that these two passages are figurative expressions.  I am glad to see that we are on the same page with these two passages.

But I want you to be more specific as to why you believe that those two passage are figurative.

I will help you.  I believe that those two passage are figurative because, if taken literally they would not fit with real live experiences as we know them.  

We know that we would not be alive if our heart, the organ that pumps blood, was in some treasure chest rather than our bodily chest.  Unless a person believes that his body is that treasure, all other possibilities of that treasure would eliminate that being literal.

Or briefly, the statement is not true to fact.

Likewise, this cup is the new testament.

We know that the scriptures give us the new testament.  A cup is not a new testament.

Again, the statement is not true to fact, therefore, the statement must be figurative.  It is a metaphor, where one thing is compared to another using the word, “is”.  The word, “is”, in a metaphor must be understood, “represents”.

Likewise, with the heart, except in this case, the figure of speech hypocatastasis is used.  There is no word, like or as, as would be used in a simile.  There is no word “is” as would be used in a metaphor.  But rather one word is substituted for another.  Ie, Jesus Christ, in speaking of Herod, says, “Go tell that fox.”  JC is saying Herod is sly like a fox, but in a the strongest way.  

That is one of the ways that I determine if a figure of speech has been employed in the scripture.  Again, if the statement is not true to fact.

You finished with this,

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1.  So what context in John 17:5 says these words HAVE TO BE figurative? 2.  Why CAN'T they be literal? 3.  And if they ARE figurative……what does the sentence actually mean?

That is what I am asking you.

Are we to take John 17:5 as literal or figurative?

How did you come to your conclusion?

My other questions regarding the rules of your game you  left unanswered.

It would be most helpful when you answer then.

If you have something to teach regarding scripture, I would be most happy to learn of you.

However, it would be most helpful to me how you came to your conclusions.  

I need to know the rules of your game.

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2.  Are you eliminating all investigation into context?  If so, why? Do you believe that context is necessary to clarify meaning? 3.  What does the word logos mean? It would seem that the standard definition is,”the thoughts behind the words used.”   I see no problem with this definition considering the uses of the word, “logos,” in the scripture.  Do you? Why is this important?   Because we must look for the intent of the words used.   We must first look at the words used, as you have done.  You have correctly pointed out that the word, para, alongside, is used twice in this verse.   But what is the intended message? So I ask,  is the intended message always word for word identical to the literal words?   (If so, what is the literal words of Luke 12:34, “For where your treasure is, there will your heart [kardia, the literal organ that pumps blood]  be also.”, teaching us?   Or, Luke 22:20b, “…This cup is the new testament..”  If the cup is literally the new testament, then we should throw away Acts through Revelation and look for this cup.) If so, what scriptural basis do you have for this conclusion? Is the intended message the literal meaning of the words used?  Or, is there a figure of speech employed which deepens the learning available to the student?               Why do I ask these questions?   1.  Before I participate in any of your threads, I want to know the rules of your game. 2.  To find out if you seriously want a Biblical answer.   3.  To detect foolish and unlearned questions, so that I might avoid them, for they gender strife. I await your reply to the questions and discussion above. If you seriously want a Biblical answer to your questions, I would be glad to help.

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