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Quote (martian @ Aug. 10 2010,14:57) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 10 2010,05:25) Quote (martian @ Aug. 10 2010,12:48) Yahweh's Foreordained Plan
A favorite verse of pre-existence proponents is Jn.17:24. It reads, “Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world .” It would seem that the Father and the Son had a loving relationship before the earth was created. Understanding this verse in that way leads to complications in understanding Eph. 1:3,4. Paul says, “Blessed be the Mighty One and Father of our Master Yahshua Messiah, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Messiah: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world , that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:” Using the same line of thinking as in Jn.17:24 we would be led to believe that all believers were chosen back in the days when they pre-existed before the earth was created. Both of these verses pertain to Yahweh's foreordained plan, not to pre-existent beings. 1Pe.1:20 says, “Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world , but was manifest in these last times for you.” Why wasn't the “pre-existent Yahshua” made manifest back in Old Testament times? Because he didn't exist at that time except in the foreordained plans of Yahweh. Other references such as Rev.13:8 and 17:8 reveal Yahweh's plan as well.Old Glory
The following section in blue was revised as of 1/16/06Following on the heels of the above, John 17:5 states, “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” Was this glory as the second person of the “Trinity” or is there something here that many people miss?
Yahshua is said to be the Lamb which was slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8), yet we have the Bible also saying, “Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.” (Hebrews 9:25-26) Clearly, the Hebrews passage states that Yahshua was not literally slain from the foundation of the world, but rather was slain in the mind or plan of Almighty Yahweh. This is akin to John 1:1 which speaks of the very word of Elohim being with Elohim in the beginning. This spoken word or plan of Yahweh existed throughout the ions of time. From the beginning of time, Yahweh had Yahshua's sacrifice in His plan for all humankind. For it was through Yahshua that we would receive our justification (Romans 4:25). 1 Peter 1:18-20 continues to explain this by saying:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.”
Notice the use of the word foreordained. Yahshua was foreordained from the foundation of the world, but was made manifest or revealed in these last times. He did not exist as a person or being in former times, but in these last times Yahweh allowed him to be born of a woman (Galatians 4:4) and speaks through him (Hebrews 1:1-2).
It is especially intriguing to find Yahshua praying to the Father, that He would let the disciples share in this glory (John 17:24) and then he in turn mentions the foundation of the world. The disciples would indeed share in the glory of the crucifixion by having their sins washed away, but they definitely did not share Yahshua's glory by themselves being involved in a trinitarian being. (Or a preexistennt being)
The glory that Yahshua had was as the slain lamb of Yahweh, in the mind of Yahweh, and Yahshua was praying for that glory to be brought about literally, so as to give unto all those who would accept, eternal life. This is why Yahshua began in John 17:1-2 by saying, “These words spake Yahshua, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, 'Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.' ” Yahshua wanted to bring about the fruition of eternal life by Yahweh glorifying him as the ultimate sacrifice, and Yahshua in turn glorifying the Father.
Hello Martian,Where is Yahweh's Foreordained Plan found?
How about the ETERNAL COVENANT? Who was it between? When was it, when did it start, when does it end?
Hbr 13:20 Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord,
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.
Eph 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
Hbr 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
So, basically I cannot believe anything that is written because they are part of God's mind or will, which is His foreordained plan as you describe it?
Mystically, why does God compare Abraham's children by the counting of the stars? Someone said that “stars” were “angels”….and angels = sons of God.
Happy Moon Day,
The Professor
Earth to David ….. Earth to David ….. You have traveled to far out there ….. Come home we miss you!!!!
MartianIf David has travel to the moon ,were have you been? in some galaxy 100 bill light years away,?
this is the word of God if you cannot accepted has it is and understand it by the spirit of truth ,well you have no hope except in men.
and this is why you cannot accept the word as it is ,but like to speculate and re speculate to again over speculate until it is conform to you likes.
Pierre
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 22 2010,13:55) He said He did it (ALONE) and BY HIMSELF, now interestingly you are denying that, Perhaps you don not know what (ALONE and BY HIMSELF Means.
Hi Gene,You are a part of creation, right? Did God ALONE cause you to exist?
Does that mean He couldn't have used your parents to create you THROUGH?
And please stop calling me dishonest…….I haven't been.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 23 2010,14:21) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 22 2010,13:55) He said He did it (ALONE) and BY HIMSELF, now interestingly you are denying that, Perhaps you don not know what (ALONE and BY HIMSELF Means.
Hi Gene,You are a part of creation, right? Did God ALONE cause you to exist?
Does that mean He couldn't have used your parents to create you THROUGH?
And please stop calling me dishonest…….I haven't been.
mike
It is called reproduction. that means producing from something that already exists, NOT bringing forth from scratch.
It is the spirit of God that made Adam a living being/soul. that spirit is passed on through the generations but originates from God. When a man dies that spirit or animating power returns to God. Without that animation no one would be born regardless of how many times a couple makes love. God does not need a mother and a father to produce life. He can make a body out of clay and animate it or place life inside a woman's body to produce a human being.I won't say you are personally dishonest, however your methods for interpreting scripture are very dishonest. If you choose to associate yourself with those methods and continue to defend them then do not be surprised that you are assumed to have the same dishonest characteristics.
Quote (martian @ Aug. 25 2010,21:09) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 23 2010,14:21) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 22 2010,13:55) He said He did it (ALONE) and BY HIMSELF, now interestingly you are denying that, Perhaps you don not know what (ALONE and BY HIMSELF Means.
Hi Gene,You are a part of creation, right? Did God ALONE cause you to exist?
Does that mean He couldn't have used your parents to create you THROUGH?
And please stop calling me dishonest…….I haven't been.
mike
It is called reproduction. that means producing from something that already exists, NOT bringing forth from scratch.
It is the spirit of God that made Adam a living being/soul. that spirit is passed on through the generations but originates from God. When a man dies that spirit or animating power returns to God. Without that animation no one would be born regardless of how many times a couple makes love. God does not need a mother and a father to produce life. He can make a body out of clay and animate it or place life inside a woman's body to produce a human being.I won't say you are personally dishonest, however your methods for interpreting scripture are very dishonest. If you choose to associate yourself with those methods and continue to defend them then do not be surprised that you are assumed to have the same dishonest characteristics.
In essence the mother and father do not create anything. They may supply the genetic code, but it is God that gives it life. they cannot say they create life.
Again it goes to purpose. What is the point of creation without Jesus. Not only does he fulfill the desire of God for a son but opens the door for many sons to come. Jesus fills (creates) the universe with the purpose and fulfillment of his plan. To bring many sons to glory.Martian………..Amen, Amen , brother i could not have said it more accurately. If only Mike could see this and understand it. The spark of life is from GOD even in it's embryonic state. The Parents of a child did not give him life GOD Did, Himself and Alone. This life was not created by anyone but God. Even the genetic Code had it origins from GOD and is for GOD'S Purpose of filling all things. Giving Credit for the creation to anyone else is total corruption of GOD Words and works to destory our understanding of who and what He is. Not only is it against Christ Jesus, it is against God the Father also, these who preach these thing are indeed Antichrists rather they understand it or not. IMO
peace and love to you and yours Martian…………………………….gene
PS………Martian are you home or still in the hospital brother, hope you are OK.
Hi Gene,
Still waiting for YOUR words brother. Besides, martian's didn't even answer the question.
Hi Gene,
You are a part of creation, right? Did God ALONE cause you to exist?
Does that mean He couldn't have used your parents to create you THROUGH?
ps, Martian, Gene is a big boy….please refrain from answering questions that are directed only to him. Thanks……I want to hear Gene's own words, okay?
mike
Quote (martian @ Aug. 26 2010,04:09) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 23 2010,14:21) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 22 2010,13:55) He said He did it (ALONE) and BY HIMSELF, now interestingly you are denying that, Perhaps you don not know what (ALONE and BY HIMSELF Means.
Hi Gene,You are a part of creation, right? Did God ALONE cause you to exist?
Does that mean He couldn't have used your parents to create you THROUGH?
And please stop calling me dishonest…….I haven't been.
mike
It is called reproduction. that means producing from something that already exists, NOT bringing forth from scratch.
It is the spirit of God that made Adam a living being/soul. that spirit is passed on through the generations but originates from God. When a man dies that spirit or animating power returns to God. Without that animation no one would be born regardless of how many times a couple makes love. God does not need a mother and a father to produce life. He can make a body out of clay and animate it or place life inside a woman's body to produce a human being.I won't say you are personally dishonest, however your methods for interpreting scripture are very dishonest. If you choose to associate yourself with those methods and continue to defend them then do not be surprised that you are assumed to have the same dishonest characteristics.
hi martiani think a reproduction means you reproduce the same thing,like cloning,
creation ,you do not know what you get ,accept another caw,dog,sheep,man,female or male,right?
is this not why we call it procreate ,when you get married like?i would not know i have only 5 children maybe i should have 100 of them maybe then i would understand .
the only word i know since i was a kid was PROCREATE that is what men and women do.
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 22 2010,06:16) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 21 2010,03:13) You can not alien up the fact that GOD said HE (ALONE) and BY HIMSELF Created everything and then insert the JESUS did IT.
Gene,You are like a one trick pony. You keep saying the same thing over and over. And I'm getting tired of you claiming the “for” thing while ignoring Col 1:16 which says both “THROUGH HIM” and “FOR HIM”.
Can both words mean “for” in this verse Gene?
Gene, I never implied that Jesus created, only what scriptures say that all things came FROM God THROUGH Jesus. (1 Cor 8:6) Sing a new song brother. Add something new to the conversation.
mike
Hi Mike:God used Jesus to create us through in the following manner:
Quote 5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Quote 2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in himLove in Christ,
MartyQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 26 2010,04:07) Hi Gene, Still waiting for YOUR words brother. Besides, martian's didn't even answer the question.
Hi Gene,
You are a part of creation, right? Did God ALONE cause you to exist?
Does that mean He couldn't have used your parents to create you THROUGH?
ps, Martian, Gene is a big boy….please refrain from answering questions that are directed only to him. Thanks……I want to hear Gene's own words, okay?
mike
Mike …….My body was a creation process Created by GOD alone or do you think The cells divide and multiply by there own means. The life (IN) the cells cause them to divide and multiply. So no matter who we incubate in it is still GOD Doing the forming and creating . In us by cell life divisions and constructions going on. Not the Mother or the Father, Now you will say to me it's the something with Jesus, Wrong, because (God) said he created the earth and the things in it (BY HIMSELF) AND He said HE DID IT (ALONE). Now what does ALONE Mean to you Mike. I know if i walk alone there is no one else with me or even around me. But if you believe Jesus did the (CREATING) then How did He do it. Where has Jesus ever (CREATED) anything, He could not even Heal anyone that was the Father who directly heals anyone that is healed , the person had nothing to do with it , God used his Miracles to conform there words they were speaking to others. Mike as far as God being (IN) Jesus it also says the GOD May be (IN) ALL and Through ALL, that still does not make anyone the creator of anything. God given HIS GLORY to (NO) Man, and that includes Jesus also. But Preexistence give GODS GLORY TO JESUS , SOMETHING JESUS NEVER DID. IMOBut of course the arrogant Preexistence doctrine just ignores those words right? Trying to fit Jesus in there by some falsely understood New Testament Scriptures doesn't Work brother. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
Mike……….In fact even their words they spoke were not theirs. I forgot to mention that.
peace and love to you and yours Mike……………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 26 2010,19:26) Mike……….In fact even their words they spoke were not theirs. I forgot to mention that. peace and love to you and yours Mike……………………………..gene
Jhn 17:3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.Jesus speaking….God sent/gave His son to the world….which means had to exist previously in order to be given.
Jhn 17:5 “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Jhn 17:17 “Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.
Jhn 17:21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You “sent” Me.
Jhn 17:24 “Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
When? BEFORE the foundation of the world.
The Professor
Hi Professor:
God sent Jesus into the world when he anointed him to preach the gospel.
Quote John 17:18As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. Quote 16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty………..Right on brother. Jesus was sent into the world (AFTER) his anointing not before it.
peace and love to you and yous…………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 26 2010,22:30) Marty………..Right on brother. Jesus was sent into the world (AFTER) his anointing not before it. peace and love to you and yous…………………………gene
1Cr 15:47 The first man is from the earth, made from dust; the second man is from heaven.Rom 1:32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
The Professor
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 26 2010,14:30) Marty………..Right on brother. Jesus was sent into the world (AFTER) his anointing not before it. peace and love to you and yous…………………………gene
Yes, Gene we know that this is true.I believe they are getting confused between him being born into the world, and being sent into the world.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (davidbfun @ Aug. 26 2010,22:41) Dumb and dumber; 
Messiah = Anointed one sent from God; God's anointed
Yahshua = Salvation from God; God's SalvationOf course he couldn't be the anointed UNTIL he came to earth. He couldn't be our Savior UNTIL he died.
His name tells it all.
The Professor
DBF………So the angles were not anointed by the Spirit when they followed the childern of Israel in the wilderness right?
But scripture say that the Christos or the (anointing) followed the childern of Israel in the wilderness. But you can do what the Preexistences do and say that means Jesus was the one following them in the wilderness. Even though there is (NO) indication inany text that say He did or that He actually preexisted as a Being of any KIND. And before i start accusing other of being Dumb I would look in the mirror myself if i were you. IMO
peace and love…………………….gene
Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 26 2010,14:41) Dumb and dumber;
Judge not lest you be judged.Love in Christ,
Marty
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