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Mike………Again look up the word Through, it can just as easily be rendered FOR as Through. Mike brother what you are not considering is that those scriptures were translated by people who were already indoctrinated into the concept of Jesus being a GOD and preexisting before His berth here on earth, they were of the Greek and Gnostic persuasions. The church had been corrupted into this way of thinking and as it progressed further into Idolatry more and more scriptures were corrupted to infer their beliefs. Actually we should call Present Christianity , The Christianity of the GREEKS, EGYPTIANS and ROMANS. The best practice is to understand it it does not fit the OLD TESTAMENT then most likely it has been corrupted by a translator to fit his beliefs at the time he translated it.
We are told to be as the Bereans and search the scriptures to see if what we here or read is of God, Now remember those scriptures that they were told to align these teachings with were what was written in the Old Testament , because the new did not exist at the time they were told to do that.
You can not alien up the fact that GOD said HE (ALONE) and BY HIMSELF Created everything and then insert the JESUS did IT. It just does not fit. Now how are you going to believe. To be a Trinitarian and or a Preexistence , you have to compromise all kinds of scripture to meet those false teachings. Why not Just believe What GOD Said In the old testament and What Jesus said in the new Testament, Show Us where Jesus ever said (HE) created anything Much less the whole world and everything in it, Just one scripture will do out of Jesus' mouth. Why would Jesus never even mention He was there when All this creation was going on , not so much as even a hint of such a thing is given to us by Jesus.
Mike come out of those false teachings brother.
peace and love to you and yours………………………………..gene
Gene! If that is the case then you have to deny a lot of Scriptures. I simple do not think that all of them are wrong…. Then you might as well trow the Bible away, because the translators just wanted what they did. And BTW it would not help their trinity doctrine at all. So your theory does not stand…. When Jesus said that He has come to do the will of His Father who has send Him, would destroy the trinity….Since they are the same person He would also not be the firstborn of all creation they think that Jesus always existed…., that too would not go with the trinity….Again deny those Scriptures if you want I will not, and go by them…..
Peace IreneIrene………Take the chalange and Show us where Jesus ever said He created anything much less the whole world. As far as Scripture being corrupted any true Scholar will tell you it has in many places. If what you and the rest of the Preexistences and Trinitarians are saying is true then Back it up with the OLD TESTAMENT and I will consider it > But if it is in contradiction of the Old Testament forget it. IMO
peace and love to you and Georg………………….gene
Quote (Baker @ Aug. 21 2010,11:13) Gene! If that is the case then you have to deny a lot of Scriptures. I simple do not think that all of them are wrong…. Then you might as well trow the Bible away, because the translators just wanted what they did. And BTW it would not help their trinity doctrine at all. So your theory does not stand…. When Jesus said that He has come to do the will of His Father who has send Him, would destroy the trinity….Since they are the same person He would also not be the firstborn of all creation they think that Jesus always existed…., that too would not go with the trinity….Again deny those Scriptures if you want I will not, and go by them…..
Peace Irene
Irene,
You seem to think that any misconduct on the part of the Trinitarian translators would make sense. Their entire program does not make sense. Including the preexistence.Hi Martian,
This, however, is one that strongly points towards Jesus preexistence!
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self
with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
How can you possibly discount this verse into obscurity?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Aug. 22 2010,04:08) Hi Martian, This, however, is one that strongly points towards Jesus preexistence!
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self
with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
How can you possibly discount this verse into obscurity?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Let's say my father sets up a trust fund for me when I reach 50 I can have it.
On my 50th birthday I write my father and say now would you give me the money you set aside for me from long ago. The money I had with you long ago.
Jesus had glory set aside for him from the foundation of the world. That has nothing to do with him being there nor is it dependent on him being there.
At best it is ambiguous verse and depends totally on how one reads it. Not clear proof at all.Quote (martian @ Aug. 22 2010,04:22) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 22 2010,04:08) Hi Martian, This, however, is one that strongly points towards Jesus preexistence!
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self
with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
How can you possibly discount this verse into obscurity?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Let's say my father sets up a trust fund for me when I reach 50 I can have it.
On my 50th birthday I write my father and say now would you give me the money you set aside for me from long ago. The money I had with you long ago.
Jesus had glory set aside for him from the foundation of the world. That has nothing to do with him being there nor is it dependent on him being there.
At best it is ambiguous verse and depends totally on how one reads it. Not clear proof at all.
Hi Martian,It doesn't say: 'the glory you had for me'?
The Bible does say: “the glory which I had”!
Are you trying to change what “The Bible” says,
to make it match 'your' preconceived ideas of truth?Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Aug. 22 2010,04:34) Quote (martian @ Aug. 22 2010,04:22) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 22 2010,04:08) Hi Martian, This, however, is one that strongly points towards Jesus preexistence!
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self
with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
How can you possibly discount this verse into obscurity?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Let's say my father sets up a trust fund for me when I reach 50 I can have it.
On my 50th birthday I write my father and say now would you give me the money you set aside for me from long ago. The money I had with you long ago.
Jesus had glory set aside for him from the foundation of the world. That has nothing to do with him being there nor is it dependent on him being there.
At best it is ambiguous verse and depends totally on how one reads it. Not clear proof at all.
Hi Martian,It doesn't say: 'the glory you had for me'?
The Bible does say: “the glory which I had”!
Are you trying to change what “The Bible” says,
to make it match 'your' preconceived ideas of truth?Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
OK – Dad send me the money I had with you from long ago.
SAme thing.
I had it reserved for me.Quote (martian @ Aug. 22 2010,05:02) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 22 2010,04:34) Quote (martian @ Aug. 22 2010,04:22) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 22 2010,04:08) Hi Martian, This, however, is one that strongly points towards Jesus preexistence!
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self
with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
How can you possibly discount this verse into obscurity?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Let's say my father sets up a trust fund for me when I reach 50 I can have it.
On my 50th birthday I write my father and say now would you give me the money you set aside for me from long ago. The money I had with you long ago.
Jesus had glory set aside for him from the foundation of the world. That has nothing to do with him being there nor is it dependent on him being there.
At best it is ambiguous verse and depends totally on how one reads it. Not clear proof at all.
Hi Martian,It doesn't say: 'the glory you had for me'?
The Bible does say: “the glory which I had”!
Are you trying to change what “The Bible” says,
to make it match 'your' preconceived ideas of truth?Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
OK – Dad send me the money I had with you from long ago.
SAme thing.
I had it reserved for me.
Hi Martian,You're trying to turn what “The Bible” says into a promissory note?
Glory = Christ
Jesus had to have been there to have had that glory.
Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote ( @ –) [quote=martian,A
What is an inheritance? Is it not a promise?
Does Jesus have an inheritance? Are we joint heirs with him?Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 21 2010,03:13) You can not alien up the fact that GOD said HE (ALONE) and BY HIMSELF Created everything and then insert the JESUS did IT.
Gene,You are like a one trick pony. You keep saying the same thing over and over. And I'm getting tired of you claiming the “for” thing while ignoring Col 1:16 which says both “THROUGH HIM” and “FOR HIM”.
Can both words mean “for” in this verse Gene?
Gene, I never implied that Jesus created, only what scriptures say that all things came FROM God THROUGH Jesus. (1 Cor 8:6) Sing a new song brother. Add something new to the conversation.
mike
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 22 2010,02:47) If what you and the rest of the Preexistences and Trinitarians are saying is true then Back it up with the OLD TESTAMENT and I will consider it > But if it is in contradiction of the Old Testament forget it. IMO
Hi Gene,How about Genesis 1:26? “Let US MAKE man in OUR image”.
Is that Old Testament enough for you? Who is the “us” that God refers to Gene?
mike
Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 22 2010,04:34) Hi Martian, It doesn't say: 'the glory you had for me'?
The Bible does say: “the glory which I had”!
Exactly Ed.They must take the words as they're written and stop adding their mystical abstract meanings about what it could have meant.
If it meant Jesus would recieve glory that he never had but God had waiting for him, Jesus would have said it that way.
mike
Quote (martian @ Aug. 22 2010,06:04) What is an inheritance? Is it not a promise?
Does Jesus have an inheritance? Are we joint heirs with him?Hi Martian,
An inheritance is something you get when someone dies.
And in our case it is because Jesus died as “The Testator”.Because of what Jesus did on the cross (to die for our sins) we
have a New “Testament” with our GOD; יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD).(Heb.9:15-17: For this cause He (Jesus) is the mediator of the New Testament,
that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under
the first (Old) Testament, that they which are called might receive the promise of eternal
inheritance. For where a Testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of “The Testator”.
For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator lives.
“Jesus Christ”=151 was “The Testator”=151.(John 16:7: Nevertheless I (Jesus=74) tell you the truth; It is expedient for you
that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I
depart, I will send the him to abide inside of you.) Because, “YHVH is One GOD”=151(John 12:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, except a corn of wheat (Jesus=74 emphasis mine)
fall into the ground and die, it abides alone: but if it die, it brings forth much “fruit”=74.) (Rom.8:17)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (martian @ Aug. 22 2010,05:02) OK – Dad send me the money I had with you from long ago.
SAme thing.
I had it reserved for me.
Martian,Your scenario doesn't make any sense at all. For one, you insist that Jesus couldn't have any knowledge that you don't have or he wouldn't be exactly like us.
So how did Jesus KNOW about this money his dad was holding for him?
Ed makes a great point; stop rewriting what the scriptures actually say in an effort to make them fit your own desires.
mike
Hi Gene,
You keep quoting the “alone” verse. It is true that you and everything else we know exists ONLY because of God. He ALONE is responsible for everything that exists.
But scripture clearly says He did it THROUGH His Son. And we know for a fact that he created you ALONE, because without him, you wouldn't exist.
But He did it THROUGH Jesus, Adam and Eve, your ancestors, and finally your parents. Yet you still exist because He ALONE decided that you could.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 22 2010,06:29) Quote (martian @ Aug. 22 2010,05:02) OK – Dad send me the money I had with you from long ago.
SAme thing.
I had it reserved for me.
Martian,Your scenario doesn't make any sense at all. For one, you insist that Jesus couldn't have any knowledge that you don't have or he wouldn't be exactly like us.
So how did Jesus KNOW about this money his dad was holding for him?
Ed makes a great point; stop rewriting what the scriptures actually say in an effort to make them fit your own desires.
mike
I did not say that Jesus did not have knowledge that we do not have. I said that he had no knowledge not available to us. He had no knowledge specifically attributable to some pre-existence.When I have substituted the meanings of words of in the translation you cry foul play. Yet when you do it, it is somehow holy and proper. that is hypocritical.
I want to know where you got the terms “in his presence”.
Quote (martian @ Aug. 22 2010,08:07) I want to know where you got the terms “in his presence”.
Hi Martian,Thanks for asking. It's about time we delve into something more than “I think's”. BTW, I didn't substitute my own words, “in your presence” is in more than one translation.
The Greek word is “para”. NETBible says this:
Joh 17:51tn Or “in your presence”; Grk “with yourself.” The use of παρά (para) twice in this verse looks back to the assertion in John 1:1 that the Word (the Λόγος [Logos], who became Jesus of Nazareth in 1:14) was with God (πρὸς τὸν θεόν, pro” ton qeon). Whatever else may be said, the statement in 17:5 strongly asserts the preexistence of Jesus Christ.
The word is translated as “together with”, “at your side”, “in your presence” and “alongside” in various translations. Here are some of them:
NET Joh 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory I had with you before the world was created.NIV Joh 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.NASB Joh 17:5
“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.MSG Joh 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me with your very own splendor, The very splendor I had in your presence Before there was a world.BBE Joh 17:5
And now, Father, let me have glory with you, even that glory which I had with you before the world was.NRSV Joh 17:5
So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed.NKJV Joh 17:5
“And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.Does that help at all?
mike
Mike………..”Alongside”, “Together with”, “in your presents”, is found no where denoting Jesus particaptaing in creation at all in the entire bible and so forth, is in complete contradiction of what GOD Himself Said. He said He did it (ALONE) and BY HIMSELF, now interestingly you are denying that, Perhaps you don not know what (ALONE and BY HIMSELF Means. I ask you for One scripture where it says Jesus was there in the Old Testament and all you can come up with it where GOD Said Lets us create man in our image. And you even have to force the text there to make it say “LET US JESUS CREATE MAN IN OUR IMAGE”. Tell us mike do you really see the word Jesus written there, or is it Like John 1:1 where you people see the word Jesus there also. What makes you so sure GOD was not talking to the SEVEN SPIRIT of GOD that go out into all the world and with these He was creating Man. Placing words or names where it is not specifically place is only an assumption. Forcing text to meet your preexisting Ideologies is the same as Trinitarians who force the text to meet their teachings.
Your say i keep saying the same thing over and over and your are right i do because that is the truth rather you believe it or not , it is you failure to accept the proof put forth to you Mike , I plainly showed you where the (SAME) Word ” BY” was translated as (IN) throughout the complete text in all other places and you still fail to admit that simple truth . So My question to you now is it really the truth you are seeking or are you just trying to force your preconceived ideologies one us. You have not produced any proof texts no matter how much you claim to have.
Mike………..The Glory Jesus had with the Father was a Predestined Glory, Jesus knew he we destined before the world was ever created for the Glory if Being the Firstborn from mankind into the Kingdom of GOD and Holds the position as the First born as well as the First begotten Son of GOD. The first in a chain of many to come, many brothers . You say Man is an Heir , and infer the Jesus already had it , that is not true Because it say we a (JOINT) HEIRS with Jesus. So scripture is saying Jesus is an HEIR also, Not that he always possessed His inheritance . You not only fail to answer Martian's questions but fail to even acknowledge the points i have posted to you as right. Mike this is being dishonest on you part brother IMO
peace and love ……………………………gene
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