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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 15 2010,14:38) Again, Peter looks forward to receiving a crown of glory. He doesn't, however, mention returning to glory he already had in the presence of God before the world, does he? Only one man says that. And although you have no clue whatsoever if the crowns already exist or if God will “poof” them into being that same day, it is beside the point. Even if the crowns already await some of us, none of us could say we are returning to the glory we had in God's presence before the world. Quote So we can also say as Jesus did, this Glory we had with GOD before there every was a creation on earth. It was all in the Plan and WILL of GOD, reserved in the heavens for us as it was fore Jesus a Glory we had with the Father before we were ever came into being we had it with the Father.
Are you aware of this glory you had? Can you tell me how much you had? Was it more or less than the glory I had? No Gene, you have no memory of any glory you had in God's presence before the world. Jesus did have a memory of it, and asked God to return him to that glory. He wasn't asking to be returned to a “thought in God's brain” Gene.peace and love,
mike
Mike………..Again you are forcing the text to say (RETURN) it does not say that or we would not be having this conversation we are having about this topic. You fail to see When GOD Plans something it is as if it already existed and the Hebrews saw it that way. Jesus' glory was from the foundation of the earth, He knew GOD had destined Him for that GLORY but He did not ever attain unto it until it happened an He understood what the Glory that existed with GOD the Father WAS. The same is true with all who are called and chosen Their Glory can also be considered as existing and they can consider that glory reserved as a Past event also thrugh the plan and will of God.Mike ……..Tell us this , when were these men GOD gave Jesus GOD'S men.
John 17:6……….> I have manifested thy name unto the men which (THOU) gavest me out of the world: (now notice) THINE THEY WERE, and thou gavest them me, and they have kept (THY) WORD>
Rom 8:29…..> For Whom he did (FOREKNOW) He also did (PREDESTINATE) TO BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON, that He might be the (FIRSTBORN) among (MANY) brethern.
30…> Moreover whom he did (PREDESTINATE), them he also (CALLED): and whom he (CALLED) them he also (JUSTIFIED) and whom he (justified) them he (ALSO GLORIFIED).This is the same with Jesus as with Us Who GOD (FOREKNEW) He (PREDESTINED) .
Mike when GOD says something is as if it already Happened , therefore Jesus Knew the glory he had with the Father before the world ever came into existence, he was aware of his position and Glory afforded him by GOD the Father. it was as if it already existed even before he was ever born the same with us all. God the Father forges his creation to meet His plans and Purposes he had in Mind before it ever existed. Can't you see and understand the Mike?.
peace and love to you and yours…………….gene
Gene said:
Quote Mike………..Again you are forcing the text to say (RETURN) it does not say that or we would not be having this conversation we are having about this topic. I'm sorry Gene,
It's just that when someone says he will go to WHERE HE WAS BEFORE, I assume it means RETURN.
And this topic isn't about God knowing things and people before hand, it is about the fact that JESUS knew where it was from which he came. Do you have memories of when you were with God before the world was created? Jesus did.
mike
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 15 2010,22:00) Martian said to Mikeboll: Quote Go back to your Monkey ministries. Then Martian said to Mikeboll:
Quote I know that you are an intelligent person. 
the Roo
Well, I'm at least intelligent enough to know that Martian said one, and Marty said the other Roo…….are you?
Quote (942767 @ Aug. 15 2010,15:17) Hi Mike: If the scriptures don't convince you, what more can I say or add to them that would convince you. Just look at the number of pages on this thread.
He was fore-ordained. He did not pre-exist as a sentient person.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,I agree Jesus was foreordained. That doesn't answer why he said he would ascend to WHERE HE WAS BEFORE. That doesn't answer why he longed for God to return him to His presence, where HE (not the foreordained thought of him in God's mind) had glory before the creation of the world.
Luk 7:28
I tell you, among those born of women no one is greater than John. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he is.”Was Jesus implying that the one who wasn't even fit to carry his sandals was greater than himself?
mike
Mike do you not know you also came from GOD or do you think you only came from you earthly Parents. Can't we who are called and chosen say the same thing Jesus said , do we not have a glory prepared for Us before we were ever Born. What do you think Foreknown and Predestined Means Mike. “WHO HE FOR KNEW HE ALSO PREDESTINED” WHAT DOES THE MEAN TO YOU Mike. The only thing we have ask of you is to produce (ONE) scripture proves a preexisting begin being transformed or morphed into a human being. You do not seem to be able to so you like all preexistence simply force the text to come out that way, because the (SPECIFIC) WORDS ARE NOT THERE ARE THEY? So you Just add them, like Trinitarians do to say Jesus is a Preexisting GOD. All these thing are supposition and assumptions foster by the (APOSTATE CHURCHES) THE MOTHER OF ALL DECEPTIONS. Nothing more then a pagan Greek derived religion. IMO
I honestly believe you conscience is telling you this is true Mike, come out of Her brother and Her false teaching completely brother. Mike be a sceptically of everything Modern Christendom teaches there are many false teaching they have decieved people through the years with. IMO
peace and love to you and Yours……………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 16 2010,06:02) Mike do you not know you also came from GOD or do you think you only came from you earthly Parents.
Hi Gene,Please keep the sermons to yourself. I have heard enough of what you believe and why you WANT it to mean this and that. I don't agree with you that we should form the scriptures around our “wishes”.
Listen very carefully here. To me, it would personally make NO difference whatsoever if Jesus didn't pre-exsist. I wouldn't “go out of my way” to try to prove he did just because “I WANT him to”. I don't care. It doesn't change one thing in my life whether he did or didn't.
I am ONLY following what scripture taught. And not because it's the way I WANT IT.
So please, from now on, don't keep littering your posts with all of this unnecessary “fluff”. Ask from scripture, and I will answer from scripture.
And yes Gene, I DO know I come from God. But I have no memory whatsoever of a glory I had in God's presence before the world was created. Why? Because I wasn't there. Even though God already knew back then every single thing about who I would eventually become, I WASN'T THERE. Jesus was, and scripture clearly says so.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 16 2010,05:43) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 15 2010,15:17) Hi Mike: If the scriptures don't convince you, what more can I say or add to them that would convince you. Just look at the number of pages on this thread.
He was fore-ordained. He did not pre-exist as a sentient person.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,I agree Jesus was foreordained. That doesn't answer why he said he would ascend to WHERE HE WAS BEFORE. That doesn't answer why he longed for God to return him to His presence, where HE (not the foreordained thought of him in God's mind) had glory before the creation of the world.
Luk 7:28
I tell you, among those born of women no one is greater than John. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he is.”Was Jesus implying that the one who wasn't even fit to carry his sandals was greater than himself?
mike
Mike:I am glad to hear that we agree that Jesus was foreordained. He said to those that did not believe that he came down from heaven, “what if the Son of man ascends where he was before”. We know that he did not exist as the Son of man prior to his birth of the virgin Mary, and so, all that he was saying is that he was going back to heaven after his resurrection from the dead.
In the scriptures that I quoted I was showing you that he said that he was in the Father and the Father was in him, that is that same spirit was in both, the Word of God.
When he said that he came down from heaven, he made it clear that he was speaking of the Word of God, that is the Words that the Father was speaking to humanity through him. He also said “that when we have seen him through the works of obedience that he was doing to the Father, we have seen the Father. He existed then before the foundation of the world as the Word of God in the heart of the Father. Isn't that what John 1 states? “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God, the same was in the beginning with God, all things were made by him, and without him was nothing made that was made”.
And then the scripture states: “And the Word was made flesh”, and Jesus was born of a woman under the law. He was a Son of God under the law of Moses, and was raised by parents under the law of Moses. At the age of 12 we see him in the scriptures stating that “he must be about his Father's business, and growing in wisdom and stature, and then at the age of about 30 we see him being anointed for his ministry as God's Christ.
A person is defined by what he does. He was declared to be the Son of God after he obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross in the resurrection by the spirit of holiness, and God exalted him to his present position at His right hand as the head of the church. This is the glory that he had with the Father before the foundation of the world. God had forseen this before the foundation of the world. This is what Jesus was saying. He was not saying that He pre-existed as a sentient person before his advent into this world.
His body then was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, and his spirit, “the express image of God's person” came down from heaven in that he obeyed the Father who was dwelling within him by His Holy Spirit, and he obeyed him without sin even unto death on the cross.
In the scripture that you have quoted, John the Baptist was a great man, and he was a prophet, but Jesus said that “he who is least in the kingdom of God was greater than he”. John the Baptist had not been born again because Jesus had not yet been glorified, and so, Jesus was saying that anyone who would be born again would be greater that John the Baptist. Of course, John the Baptist will be born again when Jesus comes for the church.
Mike, I have done my best to give you my understanding on this subject. It is my hope that we can come into unity.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Aug. 16 2010,07:43) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 16 2010,05:43) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 15 2010,15:17) Hi Mike: If the scriptures don't convince you, what more can I say or add to them that would convince you. Just look at the number of pages on this thread.
He was fore-ordained. He did not pre-exist as a sentient person.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,I agree Jesus was foreordained. That doesn't answer why he said he would ascend to WHERE HE WAS BEFORE. That doesn't answer why he longed for God to return him to His presence, where HE (not the foreordained thought of him in God's mind) had glory before the creation of the world.
Luk 7:28
I tell you, among those born of women no one is greater than John. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he is.”Was Jesus implying that the one who wasn't even fit to carry his sandals was greater than himself?
mike
Mike:I am glad to hear that we agree that Jesus was foreordained. He said to those that did not believe that he came down from heaven, “what if the Son of man ascends where he was before”. We know that he did not exist as the Son of man prior to his birth of the virgin Mary, and so, all that he was saying is that he was going back to heaven after his resurrection from the dead.
In the scriptures that I quoted I was showing you that he said that he was in the Father and the Father was in him, that is that same spirit was in both, the Word of God.
When he said that he came down from heaven, he made it clear that he was speaking of the Word of God, that is the Words that the Father was speaking to humanity through him. He also said “that when we have seen him through the works of obedience that he was doing to the Father, we have seen the Father. He existed then before the foundation of the world as the Word of God in the heart of the Father. Isn't that what John 1 states? “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God, the same was in the beginning with God, all things were made by him, and without him was nothing made that was made”.
And then the scripture states: “And the Word was made flesh”, and Jesus was born of a woman under the law. He was a Son of God under the law of Moses, and was raised by parents under the law of Moses. At the age of 12 we see him in the scriptures stating that “he must be about his Father's business, and growing in wisdom and stature, and then at the age of about 30 we see him being anointed for his ministry as God's Christ.
A person is defined by what he does. He was declared to be the Son of God after he obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross in the resurrection by the spirit of holiness, and God exalted him to his present position at His right hand as the head of the church. This is the glory that he had with the Father before the foundation of the world. God had forseen this before the foundation of the world. This is what Jesus was saying. He was not saying that He pre-existed as a sentient person before his advent into this world.
His body then was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, and his spirit, “the express image of God's person” came down from heaven in that he obeyed the Father who was dwelling within him by His Holy Spirit, and he obeyed him without sin even unto death on the cross.
In the scripture that you have quoted, John the Baptist was a great man, and he was a prophet, but Jesus said that “he who is least in the kingdom of God was greater than he”. John the Baptist had not been born again because Jesus had not yet been glorified, and so, Jesus was saying that anyone who would be born again would be greater that John the Baptist. Of course, John the Baptist will be born again when Jesus comes for the church.
Mike, I have done my best to give you my understanding on this subject. It is my hope that we can come into unity.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Foreordained and firstborn of all creation, that is what it says in Col. 1l15 and Rev, 3:14. And The Word of God was with God in the beginning, and in verse 14 He became flesh. Through Him, all was created…. If that is what He did don't you think that He had to be with Jehovah God?
How many times has this been said, and you and others still deny it.
We have a firstborn and you probably have one too, just guessing…… When there are several Scriptures telling us that He was with God our Heavenly Father in the beginning, should we not believe so? Also in Rev. 19:13-16 it plainly explains who Jesus is now, and what He is doing and how He will come back as. John 1 and Rev 19 fit together, and are not the plan of God, a plan cannot become flesh, it is only a plan…..If you want unity, then believe those Scriptures…..I don't think that either t8 or Mike will deny those Scriptures. That my friend would be trampling on God's Holy Spirit who has revealed it to us, by the Scriptures…..Mike has done a good job in taking one Scripture at the time . but unfortunately it was fruitless…. Peace Irene
Peace IreneQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 10 2010,01:30) Mike……….Your problem is to convience us that , that glory Jesus had (Before) as an existing Being of some kind. God has destined may to that glory, here is an example. “What is man that thou are so mindful of him, and the sons of men that your are so kind to them , for thou hast created them lower then the Angels for the tasting of death, but thou has crowned them with honor and Glory”> going on “we do not yet see man attained to that (GLORY), (BUT) WHAT DO WE SEE, we see Jesus who (LIKE US) was created lower than the Angles , now risen from the dead and crowned with that Honor and (Glory). Mike can't you come to see Jesus is one of US in every way brother, It is error to separate His Identity from our own. Jesus knew his future Glory as well as our Glory. This glory was Preexisting all of Us including Jesus also. Remember when He said Father the Glory you have given me i given them also. (his disciples) that where he is they may also be. We have been Glorified (WITH CHRIST) IN THE HEAVENLY, We are there because GOD the Father has destined it so and that Glory is also ours brother, reserved in heaven for us just like it was for Jesus also. No difference, Jesus was Just the (First from the Creation to attain it, that is all.
Mike please go back and read the site martian posted for you and all to read, it is right on brother. IMO
peace and love…………………………………gene
right onQuote (Baker @ Aug. 16 2010,12:53) Mike has done a good job in taking one Scripture at the time . but unfortunately it was fruitless…. Peace Irene
Peace Irene
You and I have both tried Irene, but I'm beginning to agree with you about it being fruitless. You just can't debate with people who don't have anything to actually refute the scripture itself, but instead just keep preaching their “wishes” for Jesus to be the same as us. Poor Jesus. For him to have it all at the side of God, and then empty himself to become begotten in the likeness of a human being and die for us, just to have some people make him God Almighty Himself, and others to make him exactly like us just breaks my heart.But when someone reads that he came from heaven, was in God's presence before the world was created, all things came to be through him, and he would ascend to where he was before – to the glory he had before, but still deny his divinity………what more can we do?
I'll try another scripture.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (942767 @ Aug. 16 2010,07:43) Mike: I am glad to hear that we agree that Jesus was foreordained. He said to those that did not believe that he came down from heaven, “what if the Son of man ascends where he was before”. We know that he did not exist as the Son of man prior to his birth of the virgin Mary, and so, all that he was saying is that he was going back to heaven after his resurrection from the dead.
Hi Marty,Of course I agree……it's in scripture, isn't it? Let's say I was born in Russia and named Sergio. Then I came to America, changed my name to Mike, and lived here for 33 years. You have known me for 3 years as “Mike”. Could I say to you, “What if you see Mike go across the ocean to where he was before?”
Can I say that Marty? Would you understand that I was the one who was in Russia before, even though I was known as Sergio over there? Or would I have to say, “What if you see Mike go across the ocean to where Sergio was before?”
Look Marty, Jesus has a spirit body now, but we know we will see the “Son of Man” descending on the clouds with angels.
This argument has been made by Martian, and it is weak…….don't you think?
mike
Quote (942767 @ Aug. 16 2010,07:43) In the scriptures that I quoted I was showing you that he said that he was in the Father and the Father was in him, that is that same spirit was in both, the Word of God.
Hi Marty,I'm not sure I've ever read where the spirit was the Word of God. Do you have a scripture that says that?
mike
Quote (942767 @ Aug. 16 2010,07:43) When he said that he came down from heaven, he made it clear that he was speaking of the Word of God, that is the Words that the Father was speaking to humanity through him. He also said “that when we have seen him through the works of obedience that he was doing to the Father, we have seen the Father. He existed then before the foundation of the world as the Word of God in the heart of the Father. Isn't that what John 1 states? “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God, the same was in the beginning with God, all things were made by him, and without him was nothing made that was made”.
Marty,The Word of God means that Jesus was God's spokesman. He spoke God's words. If Jesus simply existed in the heart of God, then how did he have a memory of his glory IN GOD'S PRESENCE before the world?
And John 1:1 says the Word was with THE God, and the Word was [a] god. And then, 14 says,
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory as of an only begotten one who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
And then in 18,
18No one has ever understood God, but the only begotten god,who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
John 1:1 talks of God and a god. 1:18 let's us know this other god is the only begotten god. And 1:14 let's us know this only begotten god was made flesh and lived among us.
mike
Quote (942767 @ Aug. 16 2010,07:43) In the scripture that you have quoted, John the Baptist was a great man, and he was a prophet, but Jesus said that “he who is least in the kingdom of God was greater than he”. John the Baptist had not been born again because Jesus had not yet been glorified, and so, Jesus was saying that anyone who would be born again would be greater that John the Baptist. Of course, John the Baptist will be born again when Jesus comes for the church.
Hi Marty,It says nothing about those who are born again. Not all who are born again will live in heaven Marty, just the elect. The rest will enjoy eternal life on a new earth as I understand it.
Just take the words as is without adding. It says NONE born of woman are greater than him…….yet Jesus was greater. What does that mean?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 16 2010,15:28) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 16 2010,07:43) In the scripture that you have quoted, John the Baptist was a great man, and he was a prophet, but Jesus said that “he who is least in the kingdom of God was greater than he”. John the Baptist had not been born again because Jesus had not yet been glorified, and so, Jesus was saying that anyone who would be born again would be greater that John the Baptist. Of course, John the Baptist will be born again when Jesus comes for the church.
Hi Marty,It says nothing about those who are born again. Not all who are born again will live in heaven Marty, just the elect. The rest will enjoy eternal life on a new earth as I understand it.
Just take the words as is without adding. It says NONE born of woman are greater than him…….yet Jesus was greater. What does that mean?
mike
Hi Mike:This is what the scripture state:
Quote Luke 7:28
For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than heJohn the Baptist was a great prohet, but he had not been born of God or he had not be born again. Jesus said, that he who was least in the kingdom of God was greater that him. He was a man born of a woman, but he had not been born again.
Quote John 3:3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi Mike:
You say:
Quote Marty, The Word of God means that Jesus was God's spokesman. He spoke God's words. If Jesus simply existed in the heart of God, then how did he have a memory of his glory IN GOD'S PRESENCE before the world?
Please give me the scripture to which you are referring regarding the foregoing statement.
Relative to the following:
Quote And John 1:1 says the Word was with THE God, and the Word was [a] god. And then, 14 says, 14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory as of an only begotten one who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
I can't go along with the translation the Word was [a] God. The Word was God. Yes, of course, it was God speaking through Jesus, and God's attributes were manifest through his life obedience to the Father, and so he said, “he who has seen me has seen the Father”. And Hebrews 1 states that “he is the express image of God's person”.
Relative to the following:
Quote And then in 18, 18No one has ever understood God, but the only begotten god,who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
John 1:1 talks of God and a god. 1:18 let's us know this other god is the only begotten god. And 1:14 let's us know this only begotten god was made flesh and lived among us.
The prophetic Word of God was made a reality is the way that I understand the scripture “the Word was made flesh”. And there is no begotten god. The scripture states: “For God so loved the world that he gave His Only Begotten Son”, not His only begotten god. In Matthew 16 God our Father revealed to humanity through the Apostle Peter that Jesus is His Christ, the Son of the living God.
When John is writing this gospel Jesus has been exalted to the right hand of God, and so he said the Only Begotten Son who has the Father's side, he has declared him. THERE IS NO BEGOTTEN god And yes, Jesus has made God's love manifest to humanity through his life of obedience to Him even unto death on the cross. AGAIN IN JOHN 14, HE SAID HE WHO HAS SEEN ME HAS SEEN THE FATHER
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 16 2010,15:11) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 16 2010,07:43) In the scriptures that I quoted I was showing you that he said that he was in the Father and the Father was in him, that is that same spirit was in both, the Word of God.
Hi Marty,I'm not sure I've ever read where the spirit was the Word of God. Do you have a scripture that says that?
mike
Mike:How else do you think that he was in the Father and Father was in him?
Quote John 6:63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 16 2010,15:05) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 16 2010,07:43) Mike: I am glad to hear that we agree that Jesus was foreordained. He said to those that did not believe that he came down from heaven, “what if the Son of man ascends where he was before”. We know that he did not exist as the Son of man prior to his birth of the virgin Mary, and so, all that he was saying is that he was going back to heaven after his resurrection from the dead.
Hi Marty,Of course I agree……it's in scripture, isn't it? Let's say I was born in Russia and named Sergio. Then I came to America, changed my name to Mike, and lived here for 33 years. You have known me for 3 years as “Mike”. Could I say to you, “What if you see Mike go across the ocean to where he was before?”
Can I say that Marty? Would you understand that I was the one who was in Russia before, even though I was known as Sergio over there? Or would I have to say, “What if you see Mike go across the ocean to where Sergio was before?”
Look Marty, Jesus has a spirit body now, but we know we will see the “Son of Man” descending on the clouds with angels.
This argument has been made by Martian, and it is weak…….don't you think?
mike
Hi Mike:What does all of this that you state have to do with his being fore-ordained? or anything else that I have stated?
God knew that at particular point in time he would conceive by His Spirit a Son in the womb of the virgin Mary. THAT IS WHAT IS MEANT BY HIS BEING FORE-ORDAINED
He was the promised Messiah whose coming was spoken of prohetically and symbolically throughout the OT.
Like Isaac being the promised child. This is something that Only God could do.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Aug. 17 2010,09:45) Hi Mike: You say:
Quote Marty, The Word of God means that Jesus was God's spokesman. He spoke God's words. If Jesus simply existed in the heart of God, then how did he have a memory of his glory IN GOD'S PRESENCE before the world?
Please give me the scripture to which you are referring regarding the foregoing statement.
Hi Marty,I lost track of this thread…..sorry.
Hebrews 1 NIV
1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.Now think this out Marty. He spoke to us by his Son, not by the thought in his mind about eventually having this Son, right?
Okay now…..follow it thru. This same Son (again, NOT a thought in God's mind) is the actual person thru whom God made the universe.
The first part means Jesus was God's spokesman, the second part CLEARLY says he had to pre-exist.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2010,13:37) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 17 2010,09:45) Hi Mike: You say:
Quote Marty, The Word of God means that Jesus was God's spokesman. He spoke God's words. If Jesus simply existed in the heart of God, then how did he have a memory of his glory IN GOD'S PRESENCE before the world?
Please give me the scripture to which you are referring regarding the foregoing statement.
Hi Marty,I lost track of this thread…..sorry.
Hebrews 1 NIV
1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.Now think this out Marty. He spoke to us by his Son, not by the thought in his mind about eventually having this Son, right?
Okay now…..follow it thru. This same Son (again, NOT a thought in God's mind) is the actual person thru whom God made the universe.
The first part means Jesus was God's spokesman, the second part CLEARLY says he had to pre-exist.
peace and love,
mike
No, the scripture states God has spoken in times past in divers manners by the prophets, has in this last days spoken to humanity through His Son. If he existed as a Son or in the form of God, why did he not speak through him instead of the prophets?God created every thing that he created with the Last Adam in mind. Right from Genesis, God made man in his own image, and then 1 Co. 15, the first Adam was made a living soul and the last Adam was made a life-giving spirit.
Quote Col 1:18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Love in Christ,
Marty
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