John 17:5

Participant

Irene……….So we interpret Scripture the way we want it. So you see the word Jesus there right, that is what you see?, I see the word (US) and your (assuming) it is Jesus being talked about. Just as I see the Word (WORD) in John 1:1, but your see the Word Jesus there and you say (WE) are the ones interpreting scripture the way (WE) want to. Surely you jest.

peace and love to you and Georg…………………………..gene

September 13, 2010 at 4:52 pm#216279

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 14 2010,03:34)

peace and love to you and Georg…………………………..gene

Gene! If it would only say that it is a Word and the Word is God, then you might have something. But that Word became flesh, and dwelled among us. Who is that? Also in Rev. 19:13-16 it explains that He is The Word of God and KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. It also explains that He will come with thousands of Angels. He was clothed in a robe dipped in blood. Who fits that description? No other has died for us and has a robe dipped in blood. No other is called KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. No plan of God or His intellect has become flesh and no plan of God or intellect has a robe on dipped in blood….He will come with a sharp sword , that with it He will strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. All that will come to pass, when The Word of God will come again….. You see Jesus has other names besides The Word of God and Jesus, He is also called Yahshua…..Like our Heavenly Father is Jehovah God…..Wake up, Gene and smell the roses…….All will come to pass…..Peace Irene

September 13, 2010 at 9:39 pm#216304

Participant

Irene………..God the Word (WAS) in Jesus. remember?, “THE FATHER (IN) ME (HE) doth the works. Get it the word (GOD) never became flesh that is impossible for a Word to be Flesh, It (the Word) was (IN) Jesus that does not make Jesus the Word no more then when it says GOD Spoke to Us (THOUGH) the Prophets makes the Prophets the WORD either. What is so hard for you to understand about this?.

Peace and love to you and Georg……………………………….gene

September 14, 2010 at 12:03 am#216306

Ed J

Participant

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 14 2010,03:52)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 14 2010,03:34)

peace and love to you and Georg…………………………..gene

Gene! If it would only say that it is a Word and the Word is God, then you might have something. But that Word became flesh, and dwelled among us. Who is that? Also in Rev. 19:13-16 it explains that He is The Word of God and KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. It also explains that He will come with thousands of Angels. He was clothed in a robe dipped in blood. Who fits that description? No other has died for us and has a robe dipped in blood. No other is called KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. No plan of God or His intellect has become flesh and no plan of God or intellect has a robe on dipped in blood….He will come with a sharp sword , that with it He will strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. All that will come to pass, when The Word of God will come again….. You see Jesus has other names besides The Word of God and Jesus, He is also called Yahshua…..Like our Heavenly Father is Jehovah God…..Wake up, Gene and smell the roses…….All will come to pass…..Peace Irene

Hi Irene,

Where does it state that “The Word” ever died?
Even Paul when in prison stated: that “The Word” is not bound. (2Tm.2:9)
So what makes ‘you think’: “The Word” (according to Irene) can die?

Plus

Rev.19:13 HAS NO MENTION OF A ROBE!
Rev.19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Plus

Compare: Isaiah 63:2-10 and Rev.19:11-21 to See the “HolySpirit” is “The Word”!

Plus

A PERSON DOES NOT MULTIPLY; except when doing math!
Acts12:24 …“The Word” of God grew and multiplied.

Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

September 14, 2010 at 12:43 am#216314

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 14 2010,03:34)

I see the Word (WORD) in John 1:1, but your see the Word Jesus there and you say (WE) are the ones interpreting scripture the way (WE) want to. Surely you jest.

Hi Irene and Gene and All,

Hey Gene, let's walk through it together.

John 1:1-3 NWT
In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

So far Gene, you are right…….we don't know conclusively that this “Word” is Jesus.

John 1:14-15 NWT
14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, yes, he actually cried out—this was the one who said [it]—saying: “The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, because he existed before me.”)

At this point, we learn many things:

1. First, we learn that this “Word” John mentioned in 1:1 “became flesh and resided among us”. Now John said in 20:31 that he recorded the events in his gospel account so that we would know about Jesus, so let's face it – the book is about Jesus. Who else became flesh that John was writing about?

2. Next, we learn that this “Word” spoken of in 1:1 has “a glory such as belongs to an only begotten son from a father”. Remember John's gospel account was to teach us about Jesus, so who do you think this “only begotten son” was? Didn't Jesus tell Nicodemus that God had sent His “only begotten Son” into the world because He loved the world so much? Do you think there was another “only begotten son” John was talking about?

3. Next, we learn that John the Baptist bore witness about this “Word” that was spoken of in 1:1. Who did John the Baptist bear witness about Gene? Who's sandals did John the Baptist say he was unworthy to untie? And who did John the Baptist say had “existed before me”?

Has it started to hit home yet Gene? I pray to Jehovah with all my heart that it has. How could this same “Word” that is spoken of in 1:1-3 and 1:14-15 be anyone other than Jesus?

Rev 19:11-13 NWT
11 And I saw the heaven opened, and, look! a white horse. And the one seated upon it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness. 12 His eyes are a fiery flame, and upon his head are many diadems. He has a name written that no one knows but he himself, 13 and he is arrayed with an outer garment sprinkled with blood, and the name he is called is The Word of God.

Who is this passage describing? Whoever it is, “the name he is called is THE WORD OF GOD”. Well verse 16 goes on to tell us that this same one is also called the “Lord of lords and King of kings”, so who is this “Word of God”? It also says he is called “Faithful and True”, so who is that?

Rev 3:14 NWT
14 “And to the angel of the congregation in La‧o‧di‧ce′a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God.

Well, 3:14 is definitely Jesus speaking, so Jesus is the one called “Faithful and True”, right? And that one is also “The Word of God”.

Gene and barley and the rest of you non-preexisters: I have taken what Irene started and layed it out so clearly that I can't imagine any way at all you can say Jesus wasn't the “Word”. And if Jesus is the “Word”, then we know these things about him:

1. He was in the beginning with God.
2. Everything came into existence by means of him.
3. Not one thing came into existence without him.
4. He became flesh and resided among us.
5. He had a glory such as belongs to an only begotten son.
6. John the Baptist bore witness about this “Word” saying “The one coming behind me existed before me”.
7. This “Word of God” is also called “the Faithful and True witness and was “the beginning of the creation by God”.

Gene, did God's Word (not Jesus) become flesh and have a glory of an only begotten son? Is God's Word (not Jesus) the one John the Baptist said was coming behind him? Please really read what I've put together here and think and pray about it before answering. How could this “Word” be anyone besides Jesus Christ?

peace and love to all of you,
mike

September 14, 2010 at 2:54 pm#216375

Participant

Mike……….The Word of GOD (IS) GOD”S WORDS, Yes Jesus Spoke them (Gods words) TO US , Just as the prophets spoke them (Gods words)to us. No one is arguing that Point. But remember Jesus plainly say the word he spoke were (NOT) HIS. Now if You believe Jesus them how is it you say HE HIMSELF WAS THE WORD> Speaking someone else words and actually being the Source of them is quite another matter. He also said the he spoke Words were Spirit and life, God is Spirit and His words are Spirit and LIFE. Jesus spoke them to us as well as the Prophets.

The word BECOME simply means (CAME TO BE) Gods words existed from the beginning and indeed were with HIM, Jesus did not exist from the beginning , but when He did come into existence at the right time , GOD indwelt Him and revealed His words to him and he spoke them to us, that is why he said those words were (NOT) HIS WORDS. But More Jesus had a Glory yes we had a (VIEW) Because GOD was (IN) Jesus by the Christos (the anointing) and He was destined to be the FIRSTBORN into the Kingdom of GOD From the CREATION , so in that sense He was the first of Gods creation of Human Beings to attain to eternal Life and the resurrection from the dead that was the glory of at that time the Only Begotten son of GOD and still is until the resurrection takes place and then there shall be many, because it says He is the first born among many brothers that will also be resurected unto eternal life.

Your separation of Jesus from our (EXACT) identity by giving him a position different from our is Antichrist Mike and causes people to separate Jesus from themselves. You preexistences create separate grounds, one for GOD , one for Jesus, and one for Man. You portray Jesus as not like us moving him away form the very purpose GOD brought him into existence in the first place. So when Jesus says to him that overcomes (EVEN) as I Have you don't really believe that right, because You don't believe Jesus was truly in (ALL) Point exactly as YOU are. You also do not believe He really learned (OBEDIENCE) by the things he suppered , because he already knew that right, He did not grow and learn anything because he already knew it ,in fact it is impossible for any true Preexistences to accept Jesus as one with themselves Right Mike. Not only are preexistences against GOD and His Work (IN) mankind, but against Jesus and His work as a man who became a son of GOD the first among many to be. Preexistences as Well as the Trinitarians (ARE) Antichrists. They both preach a doctrine of separation of Jesus from our likeness and self identity. IMO

Mike i know you truly believe what you are saying , But think about where and when you recieved this understanding and you will go back the the time when you were indoctrinated by a Triniarian and preexistence apostate Church , you were tauht that way most of your life and these false teaching are hard to overcome. You need to let them go and see the real Jesus a man (exactly in(every way) like you and me He was 100% pure Human and Had (NO) advantage over Us , except He was foreordained for the Glory that is afforded Him as the (FIRSTBORN) HUMAN TO ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD AND OBTAIN THE STATUS AS A SON OF GOD , from the human race. MIKE JESUS IS ONE OF US HUMANS THAT IS ALL HE EVER WAS AND OVERCAME HIS HUMAN NATURE BY THE POWER OF GOD THE FATHER WHO (IN) HIM DID THE WORKS, OF PERFECTING HIM AND RAISING HIM FROM THE DEAD AND GIVING HIM ETERNAL LIFE, THE FIRST MAN TO MAKE IT INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD FROM HUMANITY. Nothing more and nothing less.

Mike think about the destructiveness of the false teaching of The Trinity and Preexistence.

peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

September 14, 2010 at 3:16 pm#216379

terraricca

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 15 2010,08:54)

Mike think about the destructiveness of the false teaching of The Trinity and Preexistence.

peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

gene

not one scripture to backup your claim,

and you call others false teachers,hm,hm,hm,

you must be a god ?

in Gods words we trust ,who are you to beable to overwrite Gods word???
now;came to be =created=begotten=first of all creation=at one point in time he was alone with God his father = in the beginning=mike is right in is presentation and scriptures.

Pierre

September 14, 2010 at 3:42 pm#216381

Participant

Terricca……..if you were not so ignorant you could see scripture, but because you don't know them you are unable to detect them.

Here is a little help for you.

Joh 14:10…..> Believe you not that I am in the Father and the Father in me, THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK UNTO YOU I SPEAK (NOT) OF MYSELF: BUT THE FATHER THAT DWELLS IN ME, HE DOES THE WORKS.

GOD WHO SPOKE TO US IN TIMES PAST THROUGH THE PROPHETS HAS IN THESE LATTER DAY SPOKEN TO US THROUGH A SON. Do you want me to find that for you to?

Jesus said those that have the Spirit of God would remember his word because the spirit would remind them. seems you are unable to, why is that?

You intent here to not to learn but to cause distentions, that is obvious to many here, not just me only, Quoting hundreds of scripture means nothing if you don't understand them.

peace and love…………………….gene

September 14, 2010 at 4:59 pm#216383

terraricca

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 15 2010,09:42)

Terricca……..if you were not so ignorant you could see scripture, but because you don't know them you are unable to detect them.

Here is a little help for you.

Joh 14:10…..> Believe you not that I am in the Father and the Father in me, THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK UNTO YOU I SPEAK (NOT) OF MYSELF: BUT THE FATHER THAT DWELLS IN ME, HE DOES THE WORKS.

GOD WHO SPOKE TO US IN TIMES PAST THROUGH THE PROPHETS HAS IN THESE LATTER DAY SPOKEN TO US THROUGH A SON. Do you want me to find that for you to?

Jesus said those that have the Spirit of God would remember his word because the spirit would remind them. seems you are unable to, why is that?

You intent here to not to learn but to cause distentions, that is obvious to many here, not just me only, Quoting hundreds of scripture means nothing if you don't understand them.

peace and love…………………….gene

gene

Joh 14:10…..> Believe you not that I am in the Father and the Father in me, THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK UNTO YOU I SPEAK (NOT) OF MYSELF: BUT THE FATHER THAT DWELLS IN ME, HE DOES THE WORKS

good scripture,do you understand it?
Christ does not say or mean that he is God,or that God is in him and as take him over and make him say and do what ever he wants so that he lost control of himself(Jesus)

so what is it that Jesus really says and means?

give me your light gene.

Pierre

September 14, 2010 at 5:41 pm#216384

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 14 2010,08:39)

Peace and love to you and Georg……………………………….gene

Tell me something? Is God's Holy Spirit in us also? Yes it is. So it is also in Christ Jesus. That has nothing to do with The Word of God or better the Spoken Word of God, in John 1:14 He became flesh. No it, or God Himself ever was or will be flesh, or plan. It is Jesus. Also when I read in Rev. 19:13-16 it tells me that No other being whether Spirit or Human can be identified by those verses, but our Savior and KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS, Jesus Christ. He is the one who will come again with thousands of Angels and will strike the nations…He has a robe on dipped in blood. Is there another Spirit Being that has a robe on dipped in blood that I don't know of? I think your problem is with all those Scriptures that clearly tells us that Jesus not only has that name.
John Jesus Brother knew Him well and He tells us that He was in Heaven with His father before the world was. Then we have Jesus own words in John 17:5 and you are calling Him a liar when you deny that Scriptures. Besides all others. He said I have come down from Heaven to do the will of my Father etc…. Your theology needs to be fixed…..
Peace Irene

September 15, 2010 at 2:47 am#216424

Blocked

Really Gene? Yet ANOTHER diatribe from you once again explaining your human wishes to keep your doctrine how it is despite the fact that many scriptures are clearly against it? Not one single direct question that I asked was directly answered. Not one of my understandings of the scriptures was refuted by you. Nope……just more of the “you are the antichrist” crap. I will ask you just two direct questions in this post Gene. You can choose to answer them or run and hide like you have been doing. Did you notice that you're the last one standing? Martian was the first to run away, then Marty. barley is afraid to visit the Phil 2 thread because he has no answer for that last word “human being”. They have all deserted you Gene because they don't want to face the fact that their doctrine is unscriptural.

You are the last man standing, and I know how you believe. So let's examine John 1:14-15 together again. Maybe I'm understanding it wrong and you can show me the light……or maybe it's the other way around. But eventually you're going to have to ask yourself, “If I can't even refute the scriptures, why am I hanging on to this doctrine?”

1. Can you refute my claim that the “Word of God” mentioned in Rev is Jesus?

2. Can you refute my claim the the Word who was made flesh in John 1:14 is Jesus?

“Refute” doesn't mean “spout out all of my beliefs with no scriptural backing” Gene. It means you need to show me who else was called the Word and “was made flesh and resided among us”. It means you have to scripturally show that someone other than Jesus is the Lord of lords and King of kings, etc. Do you understand what you need to do? I hope so, because, let's face it, if you can't refute our understanding of what we think are very straightforward scriptures that say Jesus pre-existed, then you might want to rethink your doctrine.

peace and love,
mike

September 15, 2010 at 3:41 am#216428

Blocked

bump for Ed J

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 12 2010,14:58)

[/quote]

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 11 2010,08:31)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2010,13:38)

Ed wrote:

The focus continues to be the Angels in verse 7, then starting in verse 8 the addressing switches
once again again back to “the Son” with the focus also switching from the angels to “God” and his kingdom.

so: 'But unto the Son' therefore means the attention is now
on the son rather than that of the Angels. I hope you found my answer satisfactory?

Hi Ed,

(1)You assert that the angels are the focus in 7. (2)But then 8 switches focus to the Son…

mike

Hi Mike,

1) Yes
2) Let's try to be accurate; OK?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Okay Ed…..my mistake. How about answering the point I make?

7: And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8: But unto the Son, [he saith] Thy throne O God is for ever and ever:
a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Do you see it? 7 says, To the angels HE SAITH….. Then 8 shows a contrast between what HE SAITH to the angels and what HE SAITH to the Son.

To Ed J I say, “Thank you for actually attempting to answer my question DIRECTLY”. But to Gene, “Stop just agreeing with others and answer the questions yourself.”

Do you see that in the context and flow of the wording, there is an implied “I say” right after “Gene”? To Ed I SAY (this)…… BUT TO GENE (that)…….

It is the same with verse 8 here. Do you see a reason Paul would say, “But unto the Son” if he didn't mean, “But unto the Son HE SAITH?

mike

September 15, 2010 at 6:21 am#216440

Participant

Mike! I don't know how many times I have asked Gene about The Word of God in Rev. 19:13-16 have not received an answer either….. They just don't know what that means……when you blind your blind…. that is all I can see about the whole debate….. to many Scriptures to deny over and over again….. Irene

September 15, 2010 at 9:24 pm#216496

Participant

Mike! Also I have asked Gebe a question which He has not answered…. He does the same thing with you….. Shows that He does not know……..Irene

September 16, 2010 at 12:19 am#216511

Blocked

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 15 2010,17:21)

Hi Irene,

We already got our answer by Gene and the others deciding NOT to answer. Did you know that if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice?

At first, I thought maybe they had some good stuff we could debate……like maybe a Greek word that could be translated either this way or that. Or maybe a scripture that implied Jesus didn't pre-exist. Or at least SOMETHING besides their wishes for Christ to be exactly like us. I thought they had some solid backing for their doctrine. But as it turned out, their wishes and mumble jumble were all they had to offer…..that's it!

They can't refute the scriptures that clearly say Jesus pre-exitsted…..which makes me wonder why they would hang on to that doctrine so tightly. I mean, they are fiercely protective of it, but scripture proves it wrong. I just don't get it.

Anyway, I'm glad I popped into the “Preexistent” thread a while back and took the scriptures you were quoting and started discussing them, because I have learned many things in the process. And for me, that's what it's all about. Peter said:

Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have.

If someone starts talking to me about the “non-preexistence of Jesus” in the future, I am now prepared to give an answer.

peace and love,
mike

September 16, 2010 at 2:32 am#216528

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2010,11:19)

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 15 2010,17:21)

Hi Irene,

We already got our answer by Gene and the others deciding NOT to answer. Did you know that if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice?

Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have.

If someone starts talking to me about the “non-preexistence of Jesus” in the future, I am now prepared to give an answer.

peace and love,
mike

Mike You are right, I believe their pride won't let them say that they are wrong. Or who knows, to deny several Scriptures like that makes me wonder if the Holy Spirit is not present with them any longer. Only God knows. Sometimes it makes me angry to say something about what Jesus is. To deny that He is not just a mere man…..that to me is calling Jesus a liar. So we go on from here. I said this before that I need to stop posting to them, but when I see such nonsense I want to tell them off…….my German in me can't stand it….. But for my sake I will try again to stay away….What also is so unusual that on Face-Book, I have found better Christians then here….. That makes me sad…..May God be with you…….. Peace Irene

September 16, 2010 at 2:42 am#216531