- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Hi All,
John 17:5 NRSV
So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed.My main point is that the word “para”, which has been rendered as “in the presence of”, “together with”, and “at your side” is listed twice in the Greek text.
IMO, the first is to indicate that Jesus wants to be glorified in his Father's presence. The second explains that it is with the same glory he previously had in his Father's presence before the world existed that he now wants to be glorified with again.
peace and love,
mikeMike……….Your problem is to convience us that , that glory Jesus had (Before) as an existing Being of some kind. God has destined may to that glory, here is an example. “What is man that thou are so mindful of him, and the sons of men that your are so kind to them , for thou hast created them lower then the Angels for the tasting of death, but thou has crowned them with honor and Glory”> going on “we do not yet see man attained to that (GLORY), (BUT) WHAT DO WE SEE, we see Jesus who (LIKE US) was created lower than the Angles , now risen from the dead and crowned with that Honor and (Glory).
Mike can't you come to see Jesus is one of US in every way brother, It is error to separate His Identity from our own. Jesus knew his future Glory as well as our Glory. This glory was Preexisting all of Us including Jesus also. Remember when He said Father the Glory you have given me i given them also. (his disciples) that where he is they may also be. We have been Glorified (WITH CHRIST) IN THE HEAVENLY, We are there because GOD the Father has destined it so and that Glory is also ours brother, reserved in heaven for us just like it was for Jesus also. No difference, Jesus was Just the (First from the Creation to attain it, that is all.
Mike please go back and read the site martian posted for you and all to read, it is right on brother. IMO
peace and love…………………………………gene
Yahweh's Foreordained Plan
A favorite verse of pre-existence proponents is Jn.17:24. It reads, “Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world .” It would seem that the Father and the Son had a loving relationship before the earth was created. Understanding this verse in that way leads to complications in understanding Eph. 1:3,4. Paul says, “Blessed be the Mighty One and Father of our Master Yahshua Messiah, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Messiah: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world , that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:” Using the same line of thinking as in Jn.17:24 we would be led to believe that all believers were chosen back in the days when they pre-existed before the earth was created. Both of these verses pertain to Yahweh's foreordained plan, not to pre-existent beings. 1Pe.1:20 says, “Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world , but was manifest in these last times for you.” Why wasn't the “pre-existent Yahshua” made manifest back in Old Testament times? Because he didn't exist at that time except in the foreordained plans of Yahweh. Other references such as Rev.13:8 and 17:8 reveal Yahweh's plan as well.Old Glory
The following section in blue was revised as of 1/16/06Following on the heels of the above, John 17:5 states, “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” Was this glory as the second person of the “Trinity” or is there something here that many people miss?
Yahshua is said to be the Lamb which was slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8), yet we have the Bible also saying, “Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.” (Hebrews 9:25-26) Clearly, the Hebrews passage states that Yahshua was not literally slain from the foundation of the world, but rather was slain in the mind or plan of Almighty Yahweh. This is akin to John 1:1 which speaks of the very word of Elohim being with Elohim in the beginning. This spoken word or plan of Yahweh existed throughout the ions of time. From the beginning of time, Yahweh had Yahshua's sacrifice in His plan for all humankind. For it was through Yahshua that we would receive our justification (Romans 4:25). 1 Peter 1:18-20 continues to explain this by saying:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.”
Notice the use of the word foreordained. Yahshua was foreordained from the foundation of the world, but was made manifest or revealed in these last times. He did not exist as a person or being in former times, but in these last times Yahweh allowed him to be born of a woman (Galatians 4:4) and speaks through him (Hebrews 1:1-2).
It is especially intriguing to find Yahshua praying to the Father, that He would let the disciples share in this glory (John 17:24) and then he in turn mentions the foundation of the world. The disciples would indeed share in the glory of the crucifixion by having their sins washed away, but they definitely did not share Yahshua's glory by themselves being involved in a trinitarian being. (Or a preexistennt being)
The glory that Yahshua had was as the slain lamb of Yahweh, in the mind of Yahweh, and Yahshua was praying for that glory to be brought about literally, so as to give unto all those who would accept, eternal life. This is why Yahshua began in John 17:1-2 by saying, “These words spake Yahshua, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, 'Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.' ” Yahshua wanted to bring about the fruition of eternal life by Yahweh glorifying him as the ultimate sacrifice, and Yahshua in turn glorifying the Father.
Quote (martian @ Aug. 10 2010,12:48) Yahweh's Foreordained Plan
A favorite verse of pre-existence proponents is Jn.17:24. It reads, “Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world .” It would seem that the Father and the Son had a loving relationship before the earth was created. Understanding this verse in that way leads to complications in understanding Eph. 1:3,4. Paul says, “Blessed be the Mighty One and Father of our Master Yahshua Messiah, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Messiah: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world , that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:” Using the same line of thinking as in Jn.17:24 we would be led to believe that all believers were chosen back in the days when they pre-existed before the earth was created. Both of these verses pertain to Yahweh's foreordained plan, not to pre-existent beings. 1Pe.1:20 says, “Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world , but was manifest in these last times for you.” Why wasn't the “pre-existent Yahshua” made manifest back in Old Testament times? Because he didn't exist at that time except in the foreordained plans of Yahweh. Other references such as Rev.13:8 and 17:8 reveal Yahweh's plan as well.Old Glory
The following section in blue was revised as of 1/16/06Following on the heels of the above, John 17:5 states, “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” Was this glory as the second person of the “Trinity” or is there something here that many people miss?
Yahshua is said to be the Lamb which was slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8), yet we have the Bible also saying, “Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.” (Hebrews 9:25-26) Clearly, the Hebrews passage states that Yahshua was not literally slain from the foundation of the world, but rather was slain in the mind or plan of Almighty Yahweh. This is akin to John 1:1 which speaks of the very word of Elohim being with Elohim in the beginning. This spoken word or plan of Yahweh existed throughout the ions of time. From the beginning of time, Yahweh had Yahshua's sacrifice in His plan for all humankind. For it was through Yahshua that we would receive our justification (Romans 4:25). 1 Peter 1:18-20 continues to explain this by saying:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.”
Notice the use of the word foreordained. Yahshua was foreordained from the foundation of the world, but was made manifest or revealed in these last times. He did not exist as a person or being in former times, but in these last times Yahweh allowed him to be born of a woman (Galatians 4:4) and speaks through him (Hebrews 1:1-2).
It is especially intriguing to find Yahshua praying to the Father, that He would let the disciples share in this glory (John 17:24) and then he in turn mentions the foundation of the world. The disciples would indeed share in the glory of the crucifixion by having their sins washed away, but they definitely did not share Yahshua's glory by themselves being involved in a trinitarian being. (Or a preexistennt being)
The glory that Yahshua had was as the slain lamb of Yahweh, in the mind of Yahweh, and Yahshua was praying for that glory to be brought about literally, so as to give unto all those who would accept, eternal life. This is why Yahshua began in John 17:1-2 by saying, “These words spake Yahshua, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, 'Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.' ” Yahshua wanted to bring about the fruition of eternal life by Yahweh glorifying him as the ultimate sacrifice, and Yahshua in turn glorifying the Father.
Hello Martian,Where is Yahweh's Foreordained Plan found?
How about the ETERNAL COVENANT? Who was it between? When was it, when did it start, when does it end?
Hbr 13:20 Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord,
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.
Eph 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
Hbr 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
So, basically I cannot believe anything that is written because they are part of God's mind or will, which is His foreordained plan as you describe it?
Mystically, why does God compare Abraham's children by the counting of the stars? Someone said that “stars” were “angels”….and angels = sons of God.
Happy Moon Day,
The Professor
Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 10 2010,05:25) Quote (martian @ Aug. 10 2010,12:48) Yahweh's Foreordained Plan
A favorite verse of pre-existence proponents is Jn.17:24. It reads, “Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world .” It would seem that the Father and the Son had a loving relationship before the earth was created. Understanding this verse in that way leads to complications in understanding Eph. 1:3,4. Paul says, “Blessed be the Mighty One and Father of our Master Yahshua Messiah, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Messiah: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world , that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:” Using the same line of thinking as in Jn.17:24 we would be led to believe that all believers were chosen back in the days when they pre-existed before the earth was created. Both of these verses pertain to Yahweh's foreordained plan, not to pre-existent beings. 1Pe.1:20 says, “Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world , but was manifest in these last times for you.” Why wasn't the “pre-existent Yahshua” made manifest back in Old Testament times? Because he didn't exist at that time except in the foreordained plans of Yahweh. Other references such as Rev.13:8 and 17:8 reveal Yahweh's plan as well.Old Glory
The following section in blue was revised as of 1/16/06Following on the heels of the above, John 17:5 states, “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” Was this glory as the second person of the “Trinity” or is there something here that many people miss?
Yahshua is said to be the Lamb which was slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8), yet we have the Bible also saying, “Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.” (Hebrews 9:25-26) Clearly, the Hebrews passage states that Yahshua was not literally slain from the foundation of the world, but rather was slain in the mind or plan of Almighty Yahweh. This is akin to John 1:1 which speaks of the very word of Elohim being with Elohim in the beginning. This spoken word or plan of Yahweh existed throughout the ions of time. From the beginning of time, Yahweh had Yahshua's sacrifice in His plan for all humankind. For it was through Yahshua that we would receive our justification (Romans 4:25). 1 Peter 1:18-20 continues to explain this by saying:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.”
Notice the use of the word foreordained. Yahshua was foreordained from the foundation of the world, but was made manifest or revealed in these last times. He did not exist as a person or being in former times, but in these last times Yahweh allowed him to be born of a woman (Galatians 4:4) and speaks through him (Hebrews 1:1-2).
It is especially intriguing to find Yahshua praying to the Father, that He would let the disciples share in this glory (John 17:24) and then he in turn mentions the foundation of the world. The disciples would indeed share in the glory of the crucifixion by having their sins washed away, but they definitely did not share Yahshua's glory by themselves being involved in a trinitarian being. (Or a preexistennt being)
The glory that Yahshua had was as the slain lamb of Yahweh, in the mind of Yahweh, and Yahshua was praying for that glory to be brought about literally, so as to give unto all those who would accept, eternal life. This is why Yahshua began in John 17:1-2 by saying, “These words spake Yahshua, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, 'Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.' ” Yahshua wanted to bring about the fruition of eternal life by Yahweh glorifying him as the ultimate sacrifice, and Yahshua in turn glorifying the Father.
Hello Martian,Where is Yahweh's Foreordained Plan found?
How about the ETERNAL COVENANT? Who was it between? When was it, when did it start, when does it end?
Hbr 13:20 Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord,
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.
Eph 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
Hbr 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
So, basically I cannot believe anything that is written because they are part of God's mind or will, which is His foreordained plan as you describe it?
Mystically, why does God compare Abraham's children by the counting of the stars? Someone said that “stars” were “angels”….and angels = sons of God.
Happy Moon Day,
The Professor
Earth to David ….. Earth to David ….. You have traveled to far out there ….. Come home we miss you!!!!Hi Martian,
God has known the end from the beginning always…….scripture says so,
Isaiah 46:10
I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.So I can't and won't argue the point that Jesus was foreordained as we all were. But the difference is that none of us could say what Jesus said in John 17:5. Could you ask God to glorify you in His presence with the SAME GLORY YOU HAD IN HIS PRESENCE BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD? Were YOU in God's PRESENCE before the world was created? Was the world created THROUGH YOU? Did everything that now exists come into existence THROUGH YOU?
Your man Juan has left these questions listed above unanswered. That's why I'd rather hear from you guys than read something written by someone who agrees with you. I can't ask Juan these questions I just asked you.
Jeremiah 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”This scripture shows that God also foreordained Jeremiah, but does scripture ever say Jeremiah was “in God's presence” before the world was created? That's a big difference you know. Only one human was said to be “in God's presence before the creation of the world”.
The bottom line is that you can't disprove Jesus' pre-existence just by saying other's roles in life were also foreordained. So what else does Juan have to say? He talks of Rev 13:8 KJV, which renders it to say the Lamb was slain “from the foundation of the world”. Some other Bibles follow suit by using this translation. Some of the newer ones, however, don't.
Rev 13:8 NETBible
and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed.NETNotes offers this explanation for their translation:
The prepositional phrase “since the foundation of the world” is traditionally translated as a modifier of the immediately preceding phrase in the Greek text, “the Lamb who was killed”, but it is more likely that the phrase “since the foundation of the world” modifies the verb “written” (as translated above). Confirmation of this can be found in Rev 17:8 where the phrase “written in the book of life since the foundation of the world” occurs with no ambiguity.
Let's check out Rev 17:8 to see if they know what they're talking about:
Rev 17:8 NET
The beast you saw was, and is not, but is about to come up from the abyss and then go to destruction. The inhabitants of the earth – all those whose names have not been written in the book of life since the foundation of the world – will be astounded when they see that the beast was, and is not, but is to come.Every translation I checked, including the KJV translates the part I bolded the same way. So in light of 17:8, I think it's fair to say that this is closer to the thought John was trying to convey in 13:8, but it somehow got lost in translation. But that isn't to say that God didn't already know His Son would come as flesh and be killed. It just clears up a verse that would sound strange even if I didn't believe in pre-existence. Really, what does that mean……..”the Lamb which was slain from the foundation of the world”? It makes no sense no matter which side of the pre-existence debate you're on. It sounds like the world being founded is what killed the Lamb.
On to Juan's other “proof text”, Heb 9:25-26. For me, it is hard to understand what is meant by the KJV translation, so I offer NETBible's translation,
Hebrews 9:24-26 NET
24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with hands – the representation of the true sanctuary – but into heaven itself, and he appears now in God’s presence for us. 25 And he did not enter to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the sanctuary year after year with blood that is not his own, 26 for then he would have had to suffer again and again since the foundation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the consummation of the ages to put away sin by his sacrifice.All this passage is saying is that Christ didn't sacrifice himself year after year, like the OT priests had to sacrifice animals, or he would have had to suffer year after year. But instead, he did it once for all.
If you find anything I missed in Juan's letter, bring it up in your own words with your own defense of it please. I don't want to just keep reading written stuff you find that agrees with you. I cannot cross examine a letter.
Will you please try to answer my black bolded points above DIRECTLY?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 10 2010,10:31) Hi Martian, God has known the end from the beginning always…….scripture says so,
Isaiah 46:10
I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.So I can't and won't argue the point that Jesus was foreordained as we all were. But the difference is that none of us could say what Jesus said in John 17:5. Could you ask God to glorify you in His presence with the SAME GLORY YOU HAD IN HIS PRESENCE BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD? Were YOU in God's PRESENCE before the world was created? Was the world created THROUGH YOU? Did everything that now exists come into existence THROUGH YOU?
Your man Juan has left these questions listed above unanswered. That's why I'd rather hear from you guys than read something written by someone who agrees with you. I can't ask Juan these questions I just asked you.
Jeremiah 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”This scripture shows that God also foreordained Jeremiah, but does scripture ever say Jeremiah was “in God's presence” before the world was created? That's a big difference you know. Only one human was said to be “in God's presence before the creation of the world”.
The bottom line is that you can't disprove Jesus' pre-existence just by saying other's roles in life were also foreordained. So what else does Juan have to say? He talks of Rev 13:8 KJV, which renders it to say the Lamb was slain “from the foundation of the world”. Some other Bibles follow suit by using this translation. Some of the newer ones, however, don't.
Rev 13:8 NETBible
and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed.NETNotes offers this explanation for their translation:
The prepositional phrase “since the foundation of the world” is traditionally translated as a modifier of the immediately preceding phrase in the Greek text, “the Lamb who was killed”, but it is more likely that the phrase “since the foundation of the world” modifies the verb “written” (as translated above). Confirmation of this can be found in Rev 17:8 where the phrase “written in the book of life since the foundation of the world” occurs with no ambiguity.
Let's check out Rev 17:8 to see if they know what they're talking about:
Rev 17:8 NET
The beast you saw was, and is not, but is about to come up from the abyss and then go to destruction. The inhabitants of the earth – all those whose names have not been written in the book of life since the foundation of the world – will be astounded when they see that the beast was, and is not, but is to come.Every translation I checked, including the KJV translates the part I bolded the same way. So in light of 17:8, I think it's fair to say that this is closer to the thought John was trying to convey in 13:8, but it somehow got lost in translation. But that isn't to say that God didn't already know His Son would come as flesh and be killed. It just clears up a verse that would sound strange even if I didn't believe in pre-existence. Really, what does that mean……..”the Lamb which was slain from the foundation of the world”? It makes no sense no matter which side of the pre-existence debate you're on. It sounds like the world being founded is what killed the Lamb.
On to Juan's other “proof text”, Heb 9:25-26. For me, it is hard to understand what is meant by the KJV translation, so I offer NETBible's translation,
Hebrews 9:24-26 NET
24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with hands – the representation of the true sanctuary – but into heaven itself, and he appears now in God’s presence for us. 25 And he did not enter to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the sanctuary year after year with blood that is not his own, 26 for then he would have had to suffer again and again since the foundation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the consummation of the ages to put away sin by his sacrifice.All this passage is saying is that Christ didn't sacrifice himself year after year, like the OT priests had to sacrifice animals, or he would have had to suffer year after year. But instead, he did it once for all.
If you find anything I missed in Juan's letter, bring it up in your own words with your own defense of it please. I don't want to just keep reading written stuff you find that agrees with you. I cannot cross examine a letter.
Will you please try to answer my black bolded points above DIRECTLY?
peace and love,
mike
Just for future reference, it is not from Jaun that I quote.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 10 2010,10:31) Hi Martian, God has known the end from the beginning always…….scripture says so,
Isaiah 46:10
I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.So I can't and won't argue the point that Jesus was foreordained as we all were. But the difference is that none of us could say what Jesus said in John 17:5. Could you ask God to glorify you in His presence with the SAME GLORY YOU HAD IN HIS PRESENCE BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD? Were YOU in God's PRESENCE before the world was created? Was the world created THROUGH YOU? Did everything that now exists come into existence THROUGH YOU?
Your man Juan has left these questions listed above unanswered. That's why I'd rather hear from you guys than read something written by someone who agrees with you. I can't ask Juan these questions I just asked you.
Jeremiah 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”This scripture shows that God also foreordained Jeremiah, but does scripture ever say Jeremiah was “in God's presence” before the world was created? That's a big difference you know. Only one human was said to be “in God's presence before the creation of the world”.
The bottom line is that you can't disprove Jesus' pre-existence just by saying other's roles in life were also foreordained. So what else does Juan have to say? He talks of Rev 13:8 KJV, which renders it to say the Lamb was slain “from the foundation of the world”. Some other Bibles follow suit by using this translation. Some of the newer ones, however, don't.
Rev 13:8 NETBible
and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed.NETNotes offers this explanation for their translation:
The prepositional phrase “since the foundation of the world” is traditionally translated as a modifier of the immediately preceding phrase in the Greek text, “the Lamb who was killed”, but it is more likely that the phrase “since the foundation of the world” modifies the verb “written” (as translated above). Confirmation of this can be found in Rev 17:8 where the phrase “written in the book of life since the foundation of the world” occurs with no ambiguity.
Let's check out Rev 17:8 to see if they know what they're talking about:
Rev 17:8 NET
The beast you saw was, and is not, but is about to come up from the abyss and then go to destruction. The inhabitants of the earth – all those whose names have not been written in the book of life since the foundation of the world – will be astounded when they see that the beast was, and is not, but is to come.Every translation I checked, including the KJV translates the part I bolded the same way. So in light of 17:8, I think it's fair to say that this is closer to the thought John was trying to convey in 13:8, but it somehow got lost in translation. But that isn't to say that God didn't already know His Son would come as flesh and be killed. It just clears up a verse that would sound strange even if I didn't believe in pre-existence. Really, what does that mean……..”the Lamb which was slain from the foundation of the world”? It makes no sense no matter which side of the pre-existence debate you're on. It sounds like the world being founded is what killed the Lamb.
On to Juan's other “proof text”, Heb 9:25-26. For me, it is hard to understand what is meant by the KJV translation, so I offer NETBible's translation,
Hebrews 9:24-26 NET
24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with hands – the representation of the true sanctuary – but into heaven itself, and he appears now in God’s presence for us. 25 And he did not enter to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the sanctuary year after year with blood that is not his own, 26 for then he would have had to suffer again and again since the foundation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the consummation of the ages to put away sin by his sacrifice.All this passage is saying is that Christ didn't sacrifice himself year after year, like the OT priests had to sacrifice animals, or he would have had to suffer year after year. But instead, he did it once for all.
If you find anything I missed in Juan's letter, bring it up in your own words with your own defense of it please. I don't want to just keep reading written stuff you find that agrees with you. I cannot cross examine a letter.
Will you please try to answer my black bolded points above DIRECTLY?
peace and love,
mike
The bottom line is that you can't disprove Jesus' pre-existence just by saying other's roles in life were also foreordained.What? Since when am I on the defense of disproving your doctrine false. You are the one that is introducing a doctrine that has no clear scriptural evidence. Even your titles of your posts use the word “imply”. In addition it has been proven time and again that your methods are dishonest. Your opinions cannot be trusted because you do not back it up with sound study.
And do not quote to me from a man's translation unless that translator is here for me to cross examine.
Go back to your Monkey ministries.Hi Martian,
I'll take that as a “NO” that you can't answer the black bolded part DIRECTLY. Thanks.
Oh, and one more thing; you do know there is a difference between believing the dictionary's definitions of words and believing someone's interpretation of scriptures, don't you? We can all access the words. In fact I noticed you spouting about “bara” again today. I didn't notice you mention the different meanings implied by the different Hebrew forms of the word though. Even after we've been through that. Isn't a half truth a lie, Martian? Hmmmm……..and you keep calling ME dishonest for some reason.
If you don't want to believe any translation of the Bible, then how do you know ANYTHING about scripture at all?
mike
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 10 2010,01:30) Mike……….Your problem is to convience us that , that glory Jesus had (Before) as an existing Being of some kind. God has destined may to that glory, here is an example. “What is man that thou are so mindful of him, and the sons of men that your are so kind to them , for thou hast created them lower then the Angels for the tasting of death, but thou has crowned them with honor and Glory”> going on “we do not yet see man attained to that (GLORY), (BUT) WHAT DO WE SEE, we see Jesus who (LIKE US) was created lower than the Angles , now risen from the dead and crowned with that Honor and (Glory). Mike can't you come to see Jesus is one of US in every way brother, It is error to separate His Identity from our own. Jesus knew his future Glory as well as our Glory. This glory was Preexisting all of Us including Jesus also. Remember when He said Father the Glory you have given me i given them also. (his disciples) that where he is they may also be. We have been Glorified (WITH CHRIST) IN THE HEAVENLY, We are there because GOD the Father has destined it so and that Glory is also ours brother, reserved in heaven for us just like it was for Jesus also. No difference, Jesus was Just the (First from the Creation to attain it, that is all.
Mike please go back and read the site martian posted for you and all to read, it is right on brother. IMO
peace and love…………………………………gene
Hi Gene,When you can give an intelligent answer to the two mentions of the word “para”, then I will discourse with you. You just keep going to these sites and saying the same stuff. I've asked DIRECT questions. Will you ever actually answer them, or just keep saying that I can't know Jesus until I accept he was exactly the same as us?
Take a stab at the black bolded questions in my post to Martian. If your next post has nothing to do with those points, I will ignore it.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 11 2010,13:58) Hi Martian, I'll take that as a “NO” that you can't answer the black bolded part DIRECTLY. Thanks.
Oh, and one more thing; you do know there is a difference between believing the dictionary's definitions of words and believing someone's interpretation of scriptures, don't you? We can all access the words. In fact I noticed you spouting about “bara” again today. I didn't notice you mention the different meanings implied by the different Hebrew forms of the word though. Even after we've been through that. Isn't a half truth a lie, Martian? Hmmmm……..and you keep calling ME dishonest for some reason.
If you don't want to believe any translation of the Bible, then how do you know ANYTHING about scripture at all?
mike
I already answered it and quite frankly your posts are not worth all the trouble. I have already shown numerous times that you are not an honest researcher in several threads. You cannot be trusted in your interpretations. I do not post for you but I post for others that might read your guff and for entertainments sake. I have given up long ago trying to correct your brainwashing.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 11 2010,13:58) Hi Martian, I'll take that as a “NO” that you can't answer the black bolded part DIRECTLY. Thanks.
Oh, and one more thing; you do know there is a difference between believing the dictionary's definitions of words and believing someone's interpretation of scriptures, don't you? We can all access the words. In fact I noticed you spouting about “bara” again today. I didn't notice you mention the different meanings implied by the different Hebrew forms of the word though. Even after we've been through that. Isn't a half truth a lie, Martian? Hmmmm……..and you keep calling ME dishonest for some reason.
If you don't want to believe any translation of the Bible, then how do you know ANYTHING about scripture at all?
mike
Secondly – actually your assumptions about the tenses and forms of the term Bara were wrong so no need to elaborate on the subject more. If anyone was lying and trying to hide behind tenses it was you.Quote (martian @ Aug. 12 2010,04:03) I have already shown numerous times that you are not an honest researcher in several threads. You cannot be trusted in your interpretations.
Hi Martian,You mean to say that you've already made the false claim numerous times.
And I thought it would take more than 3 pre-exsistent scriptures to wear you down. Only two? Bummer.
If you decide to actually answer the questions here like you attempted to do in the John 6:62 thread, let me know.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 12 2010,15:33) Quote (martian @ Aug. 12 2010,04:03) I have already shown numerous times that you are not an honest researcher in several threads. You cannot be trusted in your interpretations.
Hi Martian,You mean to say that you've already made the false claim numerous times.
And I thought it would take more than 3 pre-exsistent scriptures to wear you down. Only two? Bummer.
If you decide to actually answer the questions here like you attempted to do in the John 6:62 thread, let me know.
mike
You take me out of context just like you do scripture. I can see your dishonesty is not just with scriptures. Must be because you have no example to follow and your character lacks development.I said I already answered it.
Mike………You keep saying we don't answer your question but in fact they were answered by me as well as martian it is you just fail to acknowledge it. I have also noticed when you are cornored to a specific and clear logical conclusion you do not acknowledge it brother.
peace and love………………………gene
Quote (martian @ Aug. 11 2010,04:18) So I can't and won't argue the point that Jesus was foreordained as we all were. But the difference is that none of us could say what Jesus said in John 17:5. Could you ask God to glorify you in His presence with the SAME GLORY YOU HAD IN HIS PRESENCE BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD? Were YOU in God's PRESENCE before the world was created? Was the world created THROUGH YOU? Did everything that now exists come into existence THROUGH YOU?
Mike………..Why could not we say say that, GOD has a plan for us all in the beginning (BEFORE) he ever started creating us, We sure could say the same thing Jesus said. I could ask God to Glorify me with the Glory i had with him before the world ever existed if i understood what that glory was as Jesus did why couldn't I ask that? Jesus Glory was a (PREDESTINED GLORY) he full well understood that, so him asking GOD the Father that does not at all infer him being preexistent as some kind of Being before He was ever born. That mike is an (ASSUMPTION) on you part brother.Your hung up on the word (through) it can just as easily be translated BECAUSE OF, OR FOR THE CAUSE OF, OR FOR . In fact when you take all the other scriptures into account such as Isaiah where God said He (ALONE) and BY HIMSELF Created the world and all that is in it , as well as many other scriptures also, it then becomes obvious that the context is not (THROUGH) but (FOR). But you see you preexistences can't use the full biblical understand to gain your understanding so you just Don't mention the scriptures that show it and act like all those others scriptures do not exist, and go on with you false assumptions much like WJ and the rest of the Trinitarians do, they simply ignore scriptures that show the opposite to be true. Mike you are doing the same thing with the Preexistence issue. You are forcing the text to fit you preconceived ideologies. IMO
peace and love………………………gene
Quote (martian @ Aug. 10 2010,04:48) Yahweh's Foreordained Plan
A favorite verse of pre-existence proponents is Jn.17:24. It reads, “Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world .” It would seem that the Father and the Son had a loving relationship before the earth was created. Understanding this verse in that way leads to complications in understanding Eph. 1:3,4. Paul says, “Blessed be the Mighty One and Father of our Master Yahshua Messiah, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Messiah: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world , that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:” Using the same line of thinking as in Jn.17:24 we would be led to believe that all believers were chosen back in the days when they pre-existed before the earth was created. Both of these verses pertain to Yahweh's foreordained plan, not to pre-existent beings. 1Pe.1:20 says, “Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world , but was manifest in these last times for you.” Why wasn't the “pre-existent Yahshua” made manifest back in Old Testament times? Because he didn't exist at that time except in the foreordained plans of Yahweh. Other references such as Rev.13:8 and 17:8 reveal Yahweh's plan as well.Old Glory
The following section in blue was revised as of 1/16/06Following on the heels of the above, John 17:5 states, “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” Was this glory as the second person of the “Trinity” or is there something here that many people miss?
Yahshua is said to be the Lamb which was slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8), yet we have the Bible also saying, “Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.” (Hebrews 9:25-26) Clearly, the Hebrews passage states that Yahshua was not literally slain from the foundation of the world, but rather was slain in the mind or plan of Almighty Yahweh. This is akin to John 1:1 which speaks of the very word of Elohim being with Elohim in the beginning. This spoken word or plan of Yahweh existed throughout the ions of time. From the beginning of time, Yahweh had Yahshua's sacrifice in His plan for all humankind. For it was through Yahshua that we would receive our justification (Romans 4:25). 1 Peter 1:18-20 continues to explain this by saying:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.”
Notice the use of the word foreordained. Yahshua was foreordained from the foundation of the world, but was made manifest or revealed in these last times. He did not exist as a person or being in former times, but in these last times Yahweh allowed him to be born of a woman (Galatians 4:4) and speaks through him (Hebrews 1:1-2).
It is especially intriguing to find Yahshua praying to the Father, that He would let the disciples share in this glory (John 17:24) and then he in turn mentions the foundation of the world. The disciples would indeed share in the glory of the crucifixion by having their sins washed away, but they definitely did not share Yahshua's glory by themselves being involved in a trinitarian being. (Or a preexistennt being)
The glory that Yahshua had was as the slain lamb of Yahweh, in the mind of Yahweh, and Yahshua was praying for that glory to be brought about literally, so as to give unto all those who would accept, eternal life. This is why Yahshua began in John 17:1-2 by saying, “These words spake Yahshua, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, 'Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.' ” Yahshua wanted to bring about the fruition of eternal life by Yahweh glorifying him as the ultimate sacrifice, and Yahshua in turn glorifying the Father.
Martian,I believe you said what needs to be said.
Thank you.
barley
Quote (martian @ Aug. 12 2010,23:53) I said I already answered it.
I'm sorry……..I meant if you want to answer it FOR REAL.
Here they are again:
Could you ask God to glorify you in His presence with the SAME GLORY YOU HAD IN HIS PRESENCE BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD? Were YOU in God's PRESENCE before the world was created? Was the world created THROUGH YOU? Did everything that now exists come into existence THROUGH YOU?
You'll see they are all simple yes and no questions designed to be answered by a simple yes or no. Try again, please. You were doing so well by admitting that you had no idea where Jesus was ascending to that he had been before. That was honesty and we can work from that. Be honest here and let's see where it goes, kay?
peace and love,
mikeHi Gene,
Thanks for answering. You said:
Quote could ask God to Glorify me with the Glory i had with him before the world ever existed if i understood what that glory was as Jesus did why couldn't I ask that?
Really Gene? Did you have glory with God before? How do you know that? How do you know you will ever have “glory” with God? Come on man, Jesus knew of his past life in heaven, otherwise it was a silly thing for him to say.You said:
Quote Your hung up on the word (through) it can just as easily be translated BECAUSE OF, OR FOR THE CAUSE OF, OR FOR . How about in this scripture?
Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.Can they both mean “for” Gene?
You said:
Quote You are forcing the text to fit you preconceived ideologies. IMO
Actually, that is the complete opposite of what's happening here. I'm taking the scriptures as they are written, while you guys keep trying to make them mean silly abstract things. I can't believe some of the things you are saying, like you could ask God to glorify you with the glory you had IN HIS PRESENCE before the creation of the world. It's nonsense Gene, and you've got to be able to see that.Btw, even using the word “for”, could you say that everything came into existence “for” YOU personally? Was the world created “for” YOU personally?
peace and love,
mikeHi Mike:
I believe that if you will read these scriptures carefully you will see that Jesus was not speaking of returning to a former glory that he had prior to his being glorified upon finishing the work that God gave him to do on this earth, but he was speaking in terms of going to a glory that was foreordained before the foundation of the world.
Quote John 17:4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was
13And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Love in Christ,
Marty
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
