John 1:1-18

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 26 2010,16:35)

Worshiping Jesus,

Previously you wrote to Ed:

Quote

Don't you think that if the “Word” that was made flesh and dwelt (tabernacled) among us was the 'Holy Spirit” then there would be no need for the “Holy Spirit” to descend and sit upon him later in the chapter in verses 32, 33?

The Spirit is inexhaustible and thus can be in many places at once acting for a different purpose in each case. It could thus be that it carried out one purpose in dwelling in Jesus and another in descending on him. The later, at the least, seems to bear witness of who Jesus is.

Kerwin

That is a poor explanation about the Prologue of John, especially since the context of the chapter is about Jesus. John does not use the “Holy Spirit” in verse 1 because he doesn't intend to show the Holy Spirit” as the “Word”.

You and Ed are masterfully practicing eisegesis!

December 27, 2010 at 8:14 pm#230265

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 24 2010,02:39)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 23 2010,20:48)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 22 2010,13:34)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 23 2010,04:04)

Lets just completely rewrite the scriptures.

If John meant for John 1:1 to read “Holy Spirit” he would have written it that way, don't you think?

Whats funny is you do not even believe the “Holy Spirit” is God Kerwin, or do you?

Hi WJ,

John knew Jesus personally, if he
meant Jesus instead of the “HolySpirit”,
why would he not of said so; don't you think?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Philo the Philosopher in the first century preached the same thing. It i believed his teachings have a common root with early Christians. Ad he is a Jew, he is also a Unitarian.

Kerwin

Where are you getting your information?

Philo saw the cosmos as a great chain of being presided over by the Logos, a term going back to pre-Socratic philosophy, which is the mediator between God and the world, though at one point he identifies the Logos as a second God. Philo departed from Plato principally in using the term Logos for the Idea of Ideas and for the Ideas as a whole and in his statement that the Logos is the place of the intelligible world. “In anticipation of Christian doctrine he called the Logos the first-begotten Son of God, the man of God, the image of God, and second to God“. Source

Jesus is also called the “Wisdom” of God in scriptures.

So please show us once again how the context of Johns prologue means John 1:1 is speaking of the Holy Spirit.

December 28, 2010 at 5:39 am#230282

Participant

WJ quote to Kerwin…

Quote

You and Ed are masterfully practicing eisegesis!

Thank you; WJ! …Some day, perhaps, you will acquire these “skills” as well!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

December 28, 2010 at 5:43 am#230283

Participant

WJ quote to Kerwin, referencing John 1:1…

Quote

John does not use the “Holy Spirit” in verse 1 because he doesn't intend to show the Holy Spirit” as the “Word”.

Hi WJ,

What makes you 'think' you can determine John's intentions?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

December 28, 2010 at 8:21 am#230296

Participant

Mike Boll,

Paul received the gospel from God and Jesus was the means God used to deliver that good news to Paul. Mosses received the Law of Mosses from God and angels were the means God used to deliver the terms of the covenant to him. God is not a human being or a group of human beings.

December 28, 2010 at 8:22 am#230297

Participant

Irene,

The disagreement between Mike Boll and me over 1 Timothy 2:5 is whether it calls Jesus a human being after his ascension or not. It is not about whether that scripture is evidence that spiritual flesh and blood can inherit God’s domain or not.

Do I understand you correctly that you believe Jesus is a human spirit being after his ascension?

December 28, 2010 at 8:26 am#230299

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 28 2010,10:39)

WJ quote to Kerwin…

Quote

You and Ed are masterfully practicing eisegesis!

Thank you; WJ! …Some day, perhaps, you will acquire these “skills” as well!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

WJ is accusing you of being a skilled misinterpreter. Why he did not use a less technical term than he chose is a mystery to me. The writers of scripture do the same and thus confuse those who are ignorant. That is why it is best we remain humble and learn from God who reveals all things to those who seek him. It does not seem WJ has learned that lesson yet.

December 28, 2010 at 8:27 am#230300

Participant

Worshiping Jesus,

I was explaining how the Spirit can appear to separately be observed performing two tasks at the same time even when those tasks are pertaining to the same individual. I am not sure why you find it hard to believe that Jesus had the Spirit in its aspect of counselor since Jesus states the Son can only do what he sees the Father doing, John 5:19.

I see that you make accusations without evidence as you accuse me of misinterpreting texts without actually given any evidence. Try again to provide evidence from scripture that actually disproves the interpretation I posted. That is one of the reasons I posted it. I did here your hypothesis that the Word = Jesus even though I believe you know John did not write Jesus.

I am merely stating that John is making the case that God came among men through the Spirit of God when Jesus was miraculously conceived in Mary’s womb and thus prophecy was fulfilled.

December 28, 2010 at 8:27 am#230301

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 28 2010,18:21)

Mike Boll,

Hi Kerwin,

Psalm 68:11 The Lord gave “The Word”:
great was the company of those that published it.
For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth,
to show himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. (2Chron.16:9)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

December 28, 2010 at 8:43 am#230302

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 28 2010,18:27)

Worshiping Jesus,

I am merely stating that John is making the case that God came among men through the Spirit of God when Jesus was miraculously conceived in Mary’s womb and thus prophecy was fulfilled.

Hi Kerwin,

WJ fails to understand the meaning of 2Cor.5:19 as well…
“The Word”([ο λογος] Hō Lōgôs) is the same “as” used in John 1:1 and Rev.19:13!

2Cor.5:19 To wit, that God(HolySpirit) was in Christ,
reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and
hath committed unto us “The Word” of reconciliation.

Eph.4:4-6 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord,
one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who
is above all, and through all, and in you all.

“YHVH” ↔ “God”…………………………………..(Rom. 1:20)
“Christ”(77) = “And Father”(77)…………………..(Coloss.2:9)
“Body”(46) = “of all”(46)……………………………(Matt.10:29)
“Witness”(109) = “in you all”(109)…………………….(Acts 17:29)

Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)

December 28, 2010 at 1:36 pm#230308

Baker

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 28 2010,18:22)

Irene,

Do I understand you correctly that you believe Jesus is a human spirit being after his ascension?

Kerwin, Oh no Jesus is a Spirit Being now….all that I was saying that 1 Timothy 2:5 says nothing about flesh being in Heaven….that is what you quoted to Mike….I simple said that that Scripture says nothing about Heaven. and I also know that Mike believes Jesus is a Spirit Being in Heaven. What you and I don't believe is that Jesus was a flesh Body after His resurrection, but became a Spirit Being before He entered Heaven….while Mike does…….
Peace and Love Irene

December 28, 2010 at 6:31 pm#230315

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 28 2010,02:27)

Kerwin

It is you that should prove your point. It is you that started the thread and changing the text in John 1:1 by inserting the Holy Spirit there. So the burden of proof is on you.

I have the proof of hundreds of scholars who believe the “Word” is Jesus but the most important proof is the scriptures themselves for John says…

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and “the Word was God“. John 1:1

If the “Word” was the Holy Spirit then that means the Holy Spirit is God but you do not believe that the Holy Spirit is God, isn't that right?

He was with God in the beginning. John 1:2

The language used here “with God” is never used in scriptures in reference to the Holy Spirit. The proof that he is not speaking of the Holy Spirit is in this verse…

Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. John 1:3

Nowhere will you find in scriptures all things being made through the Holy Spirit but we do find that all things were made through Jesus…Col 1:16, 17

In him was life, and that life was the light of men. John 1:4

We know who the light of men is based on Johns own writings and Jesus own words and it is not the Holy Spirit… John 1:8, 9 John 8:12, 9:5, 12:35, 12:46 So the “Word” is the life and the light of men and we know that is Jesus

The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. John 1:5

Still talking about Jesus who is that light, not the Holy Spirit

There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. John 1:6

John was sent to testify of Jesus, not the Holy Spirit.

He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. John 1:7

Again, John was sent to bear witness of Jesus and not the Holy Spirit.

He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. John 1:8

Once again, John is not that light but came to bear witness of Jesus who is the light who is the one who was with God. John is not speaking of the Holy Spirit here.

The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world. John 1:9

Once again Jesus the “Word” is the Light who was coming into the world and not the Holy Spirit.

He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. John 1:10

John is clearly speaking of Jesus who is the Word who is the light that the world was made through (Col 1:16, 17) and in whom the world did not know, and that is not the Holy Spirit for the Holy Spirit had not been sent yet and wouldn't be sent until Jesus left the world. John 7:39, John 15:26, John 16:7

He came unto his own, and his own received him not. John 1:11

Only a blind man or someone who sticks their head in the sand could say that this “Word” that was with God was the Holy Spirit that came unto his own.

Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God– John 1:12

Whose name must we believe in to be saved? John 3:16, Acts 4:12 This can't be the Holy Spirit, but even your theology believes the Holy Spirit does not have a name

children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. John 1:13

The New Birth comes through believing in Jesus who is the “Word” and not believing in the Holy Spirit.

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14

This verse speaks for itself because the “Word” that John has been talking about in the entire prologue made his dwelling among us and the Glory of that “Word” is the one and only who came from the Father full of grace and truth. We know that Jesus is the one that was full of grace and truth and not the Holy Spirit.

John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. John 1:15

Clearly the context proves Jesus is the “Word” that was made flesh whom John bears witness of.

This is what you call proper “exegesis”!

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 28 2010,02:27)

I see that you make accusations without evidence as you accuse me of misinterpreting texts without actually given any evidence.

John the writer clarifies who the “Word” is in 2 other places he writes.

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched–this we proclaim concerning “THE WORD OF LIFE”; The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 1 John 1:1-3

Jesus the “Word of life” is the Eternal Life that was with the Father in the beginning. John testifies he seen him and touched him and it is with him and the Father that we have fellowship.

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called “The Word of God. Rev 19:13

Jesus has the name “The Word of God” and it is by his blood we are saved. The Gospel of John was written some 20 years after John saw this vision so without a doubt the “Word” in John 1:1 is referring to Jesus

Is that enough evidence for you Kerwin? Now show us how it is you can add the “Holy Spirit” to the text in John 1:1. What evidence do you have that gives even a hint that such corruption is correct?

Your turn!

December 28, 2010 at 6:56 pm#230317

terraricca

Participant

Kerwin

you always have a great imagination,i mean men s views,

Pierre

December 28, 2010 at 7:28 pm#230321

942767

Participant

Hi Kerwin:

Of course, the Holy Spirit was with God. The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit. The Spirit is the life that God lives, but that is not what John 1:1-18.

What it means is that God had a plan in the beginning before he began the creation of the heavens and the earth and its host, and that was to make man in His own image. The first man was made a living soul, but the last Adam was like God in that he is a spirit of love. Jesus is the express image of God's person through the works of obedience to God that he did even unto death on the cross. That is why the scripture states: “And the Word was God”. We have seen God's character manifest through the life and death of Jesus.

Recently, I looked at the literal wording of Hebrews 1:10 that some use to support their theory that Jesus existed prior to his birth into this world and also, to state that he was co-creator with God.

The verse reads: “And you, Lord, founded the earth at (the) beginning, an the Heavens are the works your hands” rather than “And you, Lord in the beginning has laid the foundation of the earth…”

The word “founded” means “to lay the basis for”, and the scripture states that “all things were made by him, and without him was nothing made that was made”. God made every thing in the beginning knowing that a particular point in time He would bring forth His Son through whom His plan would be fulfilled.

And so, at that point in time, “the Word”, the prophetic Word concerning Jesus, was made flesh or became a reality.

Love in Christ,
Marty

December 28, 2010 at 7:41 pm#230322

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Dec. 28 2010,13:28)

The word “founded” means “to lay the basis for”, and the scripture states that “all things were made by him, and without him was nothing made that was made”.

Hi Marty

Where is your source? No translation translates it that way that I know of. Where is the source of the definition of “Foundation”?

The problem is the text says that the foundation of the earth was made “By his hands” and the context clearly bears out it is Jesus hands that the writer is speaking of. How did Jesus own hands create the all things if he was not there?

December 28, 2010 at 8:29 pm#230327

942767

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 29 2010,05:41)

Quote (942767 @ Dec. 28 2010,13:28)

The word “founded” means “to lay the basis for”, and the scripture states that “all things were made by him, and without him was nothing made that was made”.

Hi Tim

Where is your source? No translation translates it that way that I know of. Where is the source of the definition of “Foundation”?

Hi WJ:

I was looking a Greek interlinear that I have in my possession which gives the KJV and the literal translation of Hebrews 1:10.

This is the way that YLT has it:

Quote

Hebrews 1:10 (Young's Literal Translation)

10and, `Thou, at the beginning, Lord, the earth didst found, and a work of thy hands are the heavens;

My source for the definition of the Word “founded” is Stong's concordance and also Webster's dictionary.

Love in Christ,
Marty

December 28, 2010 at 9:12 pm#230331

Baker

Participant

Marty! Compare John 1;1-14 with this

Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Is there any other being that fits that description???not that I know of….

Scriptures taken from the blue letter bible on the Web….home page drop line

Peace and love Irene

December 28, 2010 at 9:16 pm#230332

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Dec. 28 2010,14:29)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 29 2010,05:41)

Quote (942767 @ Dec. 28 2010,13:28)

The word “founded” means “to lay the basis for”, and the scripture states that “all things were made by him, and without him was nothing made that was made”.

Hi Tim

Where is your source? No translation translates it that way that I know of. Where is the source of the definition of “Foundation”?

Hi WJ:

I was looking a Greek interlinear that I have in my possession which gives the KJV and the literal translation of Hebrews 1:10.

This is the way that YLT has it:

Quote

Hebrews 1:10 (Young's Literal Translation)

10and, `Thou, at the beginning, Lord, the earth didst found, and a work of thy hands are the heavens;

My source for the definition of the Word “founded” is Stong's concordance and also Webster's dictionary.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Hi Marty

OK, so how did Jesus “found (lay the basis)” of the heavens and the earth “with his own hands if he was not there?

December 29, 2010 at 12:24 am#230351