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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 27 2010,16:33) Mike…………..Jesus said GOD was A SPIRIT, he also said the Words He spoke to Us (ARE) SPIRIT and LIFE. He also said those word were (NOT) HIS WORDS. GET IT?.
Hi Gene,Does it say “the Words” became flesh? Or does it say “the Word” became flesh? Doesn't this imply only ONE word?
And what did God's “words” look like when they were flesh? Were they an elephant? A mouse?
Walk me through it.
mike
mike………..lets stop playing games tell me have you or anyone here ever seen a flesh word ever? To be honest i sure haven't but then again trinitarians and Preexistences see all kinds of thing that do not make any sense, or exist right?
peace and love……………………….gene
Mike…….., Good so we can assume there exists no such thing as a Flesh word right, So How did the Word become flesh then? It should be understood as the WORD came to Be (IN) the FLESH Man JESUS . Remember GOD is SPIRIT and can Indwell us as he did Jesus. Remember “GOD in all and through ALL” If you can imagine this GOD who is Spirit was truly (IN) Jesus as and coexisted (IN) his body with Him, remember the Father (IN) me He doth the works. What most have a hard time understanding is that GOD was LITERALLY (IN) Jesus and can also Be (IN) us also He considers us Temples He Can live IN.
peace and love…………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 30 2010,10:22) Mike…….., Good so we can assume there exists no such thing as a Flesh word right, So How did the Word become flesh then? It should be understood as the WORD came to Be (IN) the FLESH Man JESUS . Remember GOD is SPIRIT and can Indwell us as he did Jesus.
Yes Gene, we can rewrite the scriptures to suit our doctrines……..OR…….we can take the scriptures at face value. Which do you think seems to be the better idea?So, we agree that a literal “word” cannot become flesh, right? And we agree that our choices are to “assume” the scripture “meant” something other than what it says…..OR…..find a better understanding that leaves the scripture unscathed. Let's do that last one.
I've showed you info where an Abyssinian Prince's “spokesman” was referred to as his “word”. Do you remember the post? I could repost it if you want me to.
Now, if Revelation makes it clear that Jesus Christ is also called “the Word of God”, and Revelation was written by the same author, then why is it so hard to connect the dots?
Jesus is God's “spokesman” because, as you so often point out, he SPOKE THE WORDS OF GOD. And someone's “spokesman” can be called their “word”.
Now, this “Word” became flesh, and we both know a literal word cannot become flesh. But we know that Jesus came in the flesh, right? We also know this “Word” dwelled among us. Jesus dwelled among us, right? We also know this “Word” had the glory of an only begotten from the Father. Jesus has the glory of an only begotten from the Father, right?
So let's add this up:
1. Jesus IS the “Word” in Revelation, which was also written by the Apostle John, so we know that John has been shown by the Spirit that Jesus is called “the Word”.
2. A person's “spokesman” can be called that person's “word”.
3. Jesus became flesh, just like the “Word” became flesh.
4. Jesus dwelled among us, just like the “Word” dwelled among us.
5. Jesus has the glory of an only begotten from the Father, just like the “Word” is said to have.
And the best part is that we don't have to “assume” John “meant” something other than what he wrote. Because that is a BIG assumption, Gene. To assume that “became flesh” really means “came to be IN someone who WAS flesh” is really changing the meaning of what was written.
If you allow yourself to do it here, then what will stop you from “assuming” that “glorify me with the glory I HAD in your presence before the creation of the world” really means “give me the foreordained glory you've had waiting for me since the time I was a only thought in your head before the creation of the world”?
Aren't we better than this Gene? Do we really have to mutilate the scriptures just so we can make our unscriptural doctrines seem more scriptural?
One last thought about “the Word”:
1 John 1:1-3 NIV
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.John here speaks of some “Word” of life. But he claims they have seen, heard, looked at, and physically touched this “Word”. 1 John 1 parallels John 1 very closely in the language used: “Word”, “Light”, “Life”. Read them both in comparison Gene……..you'll see the similarities. But 1 John 1 makes it clear that this “Word” cannot be the invisible “Spirit of God”, for they have seen and touched this “Word”.
peace and love,
mikeMike………….If i called you a snake does the make you snake , If i said the Ship She is beautiful does that make the Ship a She. If i say Jesus is (CALLED) by Some or even All “the word of God” , does that really make him the WORD It SELF , answer ( NO ) it DOES not Make HIM the WORD I do agree he is the SPOKESMAN of the WORD of GOD TO US Just as a Prophet was also that GOD Spoke Through. I never had a problem with Jesus speaking God the Father Word to Us never ever had that Problem. I full well know those word were the father words he spoke to us. What has that got to do with his preexistences any way. I can believe that and Not have to try to twist John 1:1 to say what in fact it does not really say and still believe Jesus spoke Gods words to Me and us all. You see i don;t have to change anything to believe what i believe , I don't have to try to figure out How GOD said He (ALONE) and By (HIMSELF) Created all the world and everything in it as other scripture say too and then try to figure how to work Jesus into the equation. by Some Mystery religious dogmas. What i believe fit all scriptures in the old and in the New testament. If is see something in the New that ight not make sense i do like the Berans did , (not try of find some Greek text or Church doctrine to clarify what is all means) But Just go search the Old testament to see if it all conforms to what is said there, if it does not then i reject it. Simple no half truth and ignoring some texts or taking them out of context to force what i want it to say. IMO
peace and love……………………….gene
Hi Mike! I thought I would put this Scripture up since you are debating The Word of God, with Gene.
Gene does not understand that The Word of God is first a person and a title just like God is……..
these Scriptures are plain to see that it is Jesus who is coming again as KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS……
Rev 19:11 ¶ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called THE WORD OF GOD..
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Peace and Love Irene
Irene………..All you have quoted is (SYMBOLIC LANGUAGE) Go and read the first part of Revelations and look up the words (signified it) that might help you understand you can't take everything in revelation literally. The eyes like flames of fire are Representative of the Seven eyes of GOD which are the seven spirit of GOD that go to and fro throughout the earth, and He also has these with Horns which represent Powers seven Powers, First get the symbolic language us there right and it will help you and us better understand what is truly being said and meant there. IMO
peace and lvoe to you and Georg………………………………..gene
To All……….In the beginning was the Word and the word was with GOD and the word was God.
Some say the word GOD is a title, in fact it is a descriptor it does describe something. The Closest description i have seen is the word POWER given by Jeff Beaner a Hebrew Scholar. The original Pictorial language of the Hebrews depicted a picture of a Ox head with a staff next to it. the Ox represented POWER and the Staff was Some thing to Strengthen a Person and support him. This is the original concept of the word Elohim or GOD. So it appears the word GOD is Just an expression of POWER.
SO now lets read John 1:1 and use that in the translations of it. It would read like this , IN THE BEGINNING WAS WORD AND THE WORD WAS WITH POWER AND THE WORD WAS POWER. Remember, In the beginning GOD Spoke thing into existence and so Power was displayed after He spoke the Words. ie. “Let there be light” and it was so, This shows both the Word and the POWER (God) combined as one and the same thing applies, the LORD is the GOD or the Almighty Power. The Lord Spoke and HIS POWER (GOD) created it. He himself alone no one else did it but the LORD GOD ALONE. IMO
peace and love to you all………………………….gene
Mike………….God get a English Dictionary and look up the word Became, Maybe that will help you or read what EDJ and I already wrote you.
The word BECAME means CAME TO BE, GODS words (CAME TO BE) (IN) Jesus. Jesus was not those WORDS EVER now or ever will be either. The LORD GOD and HIS WORDS ARE ONE and the SAME BEING. Jesus is not that Being. When are you people going to get this?
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………gene
Hi Gene,
Thank you for the honest and respectable post. It is a far cry from most of your posts that just regurgitate the same old tired accusations. And because of that, I will seriously and honestly give you my thoughts on what you said.
Gene:
Quote Mike………….If i called you a snake does the make you snake , If i said the Ship She is beautiful does that make the Ship a She. If i say Jesus is (CALLED) by Some or even All “the word of God” , does that really make him the WORD It SELF
I understand your point here. Please try to understand mine. If the ship is called “she” or “her”, then although we know it doesn't have female reproductive organs, we do know that if the Captain says, “Okay sailors, let's board HER and see how fast SHE can go”, the Captain is talking about that ship.By the same token, if we know Jesus is called “the Word of God” because he is God's spokesman, it doesn't mean Jesus is the literal “words” that God speaks, but one through whom God speaks those words. And although we know this, if someone shouted, “Hey guys, quiet down……the Word is about to speak”, we would know that this guy shouting was not referring to a literal “word” of God that was about to speak, but to the PERSON who has the title “Word of God” because he is God's spokesman. Just as we knew the Captain was not referring to a girl, but to his ship.
Are you with me so far?
Now, knowing that a literal “word” of God cannot BECOME flesh, and agreeing that Jesus IS called “the Word of God” because he is God's spokesman, what should we make of John 1:14? Something or someone became flesh. And that something or someone was called “the Word”. And since the actual “word” of God cannot become flesh, DWELL among us, and have the glory of an ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, what other choices do we have left?
Because John 1:14 either says a literal “word” of God became flesh, or it says a spokesman of God became flesh. I don't see any other choice here, do you? So now which spokeman of God was it that became flesh, because like you truthfully say, God has had many of them. But while all those others equally spoke the words of God to the people, only one of them was ever said to be given the title ” the Word of God”.
Now if you add all this up, and add to it the fact that Jesus is called the “only begotten god” in John 1:18, which works nicely with Jesus being called “a god” in John 1:1, then everything adds up nicely.
Gene:
Quote I full well know those word were the father words he spoke to us.
But you ignore that Jesus also spoke his own words. If Jesus was nothing more than God's literal words manifested, then it would have been God praying to Himself every time Jesus prayed. Does that make sense?Gene:
Quote You see i don;t have to change anything to believe what i believe , I don't have to try to figure out How GOD said He (ALONE) and By (HIMSELF) Created all the world and everything in it as other scripture say too and then try to figure how to work Jesus into the equation.
You say you're like the Bereans. So what did you ever make of Gen 1:26? Who is God talking to? Who could have had the same image of God before we were made in God's image? God had to have been talking to someone, right?The NT tells us Jesus also shares his God's image. The NT tells us that everything is FROM God, THROUGH Jesus. Doesn't that all match up with Gen 1:26?
I know about the “created ALONE” scriptures. But I also know it is because of God ALONE that I exist, although He ALONE created me THROUGH my parents.
Gene:
Quote But Just go search the Old testament to see if it all conforms to what is said there, if it does not then i reject it.
Okay Gene, then just answer about Gen 1:26. God said “Let US CREATE…..” Does that not fit into God being said to create alone…………through Jesus?peace and love,
mikeQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 01 2010,01:44) The word BECAME means CAME TO BE, GODS words (CAME TO BE) (IN) Jesus.
No Gene,The scripture would then say the Word “came to be”…….FLESH. No matter how you define “became”, it never ends up saying the Word came to be “IN someone who was flesh”.
mike
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 01 2010,01:39) SO now lets read John 1:1 and use that in the translations of it. It would read like this , IN THE BEGINNING WAS WORD AND THE WORD WAS WITH POWER AND THE WORD WAS POWER.
Actually Gene, John 1:1 would then say, “IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD, AND THE WORD WAS WITH…..THE……POWER, AND THE WORD WAS POWER.It is not I who “makes a distinction”, but John. One “theos” is in John 1:1 is preceeded by the definite article. The other is not. The Greeks did not use an indefinite article. It has to be inserted by English translators for it to make proper sense in English. The NWT correctly inserts the indefinite article in John 1:1, while almost every other translation leaves it omitted so the text can sound like Jesus is God Himself.
John 1:1 NWT
In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.In order to help you understand this, look at Acts 12:22,
Acts 12:22 NIV
They shouted, “This is the voice of a god, not of a man.”The writer Luke does not add the indefinite article “A” here, because they don't use it in the Greek language.
But virtually every major English translation inserts it for our understanding. Why? Because it is clear from the context that Luke did not mean “THE God”. Why? Because he didn't use the definite article “THE” in front of “god”. Here's another:Acts 28:6 NIV
The people expected him to swell up or suddenly fall dead, but after waiting a long time and seeing nothing unusual happen to him, they changed their minds and said he was a god.Again, the word “A” is not there in the Greek text, but every major English translation inserts it for our understanding. And again, they do so because we know Luke didn't mean “THE God”, for he didn't use the word “THE”.
Now, if we can understand this simple rule of grammar in Acts 12:22 and 28:6, then why can't we understand it in John 1:1? John uses the definite article in front of only one of the “gods” mentioned. That means one was “THE God”, and the other was “a god”.
Can you understand these scriptural examples? Do you have any SCRIPTURAL reason whatsoever to disclaim what I have just showed you?
peace and love,
mikeMike………… Mike why get upset by me saying the same thing over and over ,You certainly do. It is interesting how you change the word God to lower case lettering when in fact the original GREEK was written in (ALL) upper case lettering. YOU have no idea which is being referred as Lower or Upper case there nor does anyone else either. If you apply that to you reading then what do you come up with?>
Again i have explained the the WORD GOD simply means (POWER) not any person at all unless it is applied to some one who has been given it from The LORD YHWH “HEAR O ISREAL THE lord (YHWH) OUR GOD (POWER) IS ONE LORD. And In the beginning , notice it does not say (A) Beginning but” the” (Definite article (the)is there. Some correctly translating it would mean the Beginning of (ALL THINGS INCLUSIVE) IT IS AN ALL INCLUSIVE EXPRESSION. There is no separation of persons being mentioned there as preexistences and Trinitarians try to force it to mean.
You speak about searching the old like the Bereans did and i do and nothing of the old testament support your doctrine of Preexistence without forcing what is written. Now lets consider what i mean , Let take you assumption that the US meant Jesus and GOD. Now is that what is written there, NO it is NOT!, but Preexistences and Trinitarians have aways put thing into text that are not (specifically written right> so if i want it to mean Jesus i must force the word Jesus there. Now can i swear on my mothers grave that it means Jesus, absolute NO i can't, but trinitarians and Preexistences have no problem saying that right. Now here is another “Opinion” about of what the US can be. There are seven Spirits of GOD we are told in revelation that go out into all the earth from the throne of GOD, These are the eyes of GOD another word make up how God sees, Now these Seven Spirit are on the Lamb of GOD as demonstrated in Revelations. and Notice they are sitting on seven HORNS< These horns are symbols of POWERS, and they are connected with each of the eyes of GOD. This is the creative force and Power that GOD was referring to in Genesis when he said let US Create, all seven of His spirits was being referenced there (IMO).
Jesus had and Has the fullness of GOD (in) Him So he see things as GOD does by way of these Spirits and Power was also connect with them. Trust me Jesus could have done (NOTHING) without them, Neither can WE, Jesus was not lying when he said he could do (NOTHING) of HIMSELF, but the FATHER who was (IN) Him (HE) does the work.
Remember when Jesus told the disciples to remain in Jerusalem until the recieve (POWER) from ON HIGH , the Power they recieved was intellect of truth, the SPIRIT of TRUTH, the earnest of GOD, Which all true Believers have recieved, This Power enables them to be cognitive of the truth when they hear it. It is that spirit which accuses us and defends us because it brings every thought in (captivity) (every thought) , it guides us and convicts of sin and righteousness. And it is squad (IN) the mind of those who have it (IN) them. It is impossible for them to be decieved because of the Spirit (intellect) of the truth that is in them. The truth has a ring of its own and all who have that spirit will recognize truth, because that is what that spirit of truth does in a person it enables a person to recognize truth when he or she hears it, It elevates their cognitive ability. If we learn to trust in the spirit of truth it will guide us into all truth, it is a most precious gift truly the earnest of GOD given us. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene
Gene:
Quote It is interesting how you change the word God to lower case lettering when in fact the original GREEK was written in (ALL) upper case lettering. YOU have no idea which is being referred as Lower or Upper case there nor does anyone else either. If you apply that to you reading then what do you come up with? Okay, here we go once again. If you eliminate upper/lower case letters, THIS is what we ALL have no choice but to come up with.
ARE YOU READY? I've said it before many times and you don't seem to get it…….so ARE YOU READY?
One of the mentions of “GOD” is preceeded by the definite article “THE” Gene. Are you HEARING ME? ONLY ONE is preceeded by the word “THE”. Do you get this fact? Are we in agreement that ONLY ONE of the words “god” in John 1:1 IS PRECEEDED BY THE DEFINITE ARTICLE “THE”?
Because once we are in agreement about this undisputable fact, we can move forward.
So……….ARE WE IN AGREEMENT ABOUT THIS ONE FACT? A simple Yes or No will suffice.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2010,06:43) Hi Gene, You say you're like the Bereans. So what did you ever make of Gen 1:26?
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,ĔL-ō-Hêêm is speaking things into existence by “ο λογος”.
John 1:1…
In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.I have lined “Bible Truth”=117 up to help you to better
understand “Our YHVH”=117; the God of our fathers.English ↔ Hebrew ↔ Greek
“Word of God” ↔ “God” ↔ “The Word”
“Word of God”(86) = (אלהים](86] = [ο λογος](86)th Prime Hō Lōgôs
YHVH(63) = ĔL-ō-Hêêm(63) = The Bible(63)
Spirit of God(117) = (117)יהוה האלהים = Bible Truth(117)Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 01 2010,10:16) Mike………… Let take you assumption that the US meant Jesus and GOD.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene
Hi Gene,Why couldn't the us mean everybody?
John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness (by the HolySpirit),
because [[[ye]]] have been with me from the beginning.2Tm.1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given [[[us]]] in Christ Jesus before the world began, (John 15:27)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2010,10:58) Gene: Quote It is interesting how you change the word God to lower case lettering when in fact the original GREEK was written in (ALL) upper case lettering. YOU have no idea which is being referred as Lower or Upper case there nor does anyone else either. If you apply that to you reading then what do you come up with? Okay, here we go once again. If you eliminate upper/lower case letters, THIS is what we ALL have no choice but to come up with.
ARE YOU READY? I've said it before many times and you don't seem to get it…….so ARE YOU READY?
One of the mentions of “GOD” is preceeded by the definite article “THE” Gene. Are you HEARING ME? ONLY ONE is preceeded by the word “THE”. Do you get this fact? Are we in agreement that ONLY ONE of the words “god” in John 1:1 IS PRECEEDED BY THE DEFINITE ARTICLE “THE”?
Because once we are in agreement about this undisputable fact, we can move forward.
So……….ARE WE IN AGREEMENT ABOUT THIS ONE FACT? A simple Yes or No will suffice.
mike
Hi Mike,Here is John 1:1…
John 1:1 Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
EDJ…………I not saying that the US is Just the seven Spirit of GOD Which I believe is YHWH creative Force and power, I can't specifically say that it just MY OPINION> but The preexistences can not Specifically say that the US was God and Jesus either , Just as you can't specifically say the Us is everyone either. So Stale Mate about the Us thing right?
peace and love to you and yours……………………………….gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2010,10:58) Gene: Quote It is interesting how you change the word God to lower case lettering when in fact the original GREEK was written in (ALL) upper case lettering. YOU have no idea which is being referred as Lower or Upper case there nor does anyone else either. If you apply that to you reading then what do you come up with? Okay, here we go once again. If you eliminate upper/lower case letters, THIS is what we ALL have no choice but to come up with.
ARE YOU READY? I've said it before many times and you don't seem to get it…….so ARE YOU READY?
One of the mentions of “GOD” is preceeded by the definite article “THE” Gene. Are you HEARING ME? ONLY ONE is preceeded by the word “THE”. Do you get this fact? Are we in agreement that ONLY ONE of the words “god” in John 1:1 IS PRECEEDED BY THE DEFINITE ARTICLE “THE”?
Because once we are in agreement about this undisputable fact, we can move forward.
So……….ARE WE IN AGREEMENT ABOUT THIS ONE FACT? A simple Yes or No will suffice.
mike
Mike……….You have a problem with the word GOD if you come to understand what that word really means , it is Not a Person or being , it is a descriptor of SPIRIT With POWER . Example Here O Israel the LORD (YHWH) our GOD (SPIRIT/POWER) is ONE LORD (YHWH). The best translation would be > IN THE BEGINNING (of everything) WAS THE WORD AND THE WORD WAS WITH THE POWER AND THE WORD WAS POWER. IMO, Mike remember every thing was (SPOKEN INTO EXISTENCES) remember. GOD and HIS Word are one and the same thing and it can be (IN) anyone and that is GOD (IN) them or Jesus makes no difference it is ONE GOD in all and through all. Does that help you any Mike?
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