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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 16 2007,12:51) Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 16 2007,12:29) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 16 2007,12:14) Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 16 2007,12:05) He is the source of all, without the power given to his son then YHVH can do nothing. In that sense yes the Father did have something to do with it.
MSThe hebrew scriptures says “By myself” “None Other”.
If you say that YHWH did by the power of the Father then YHWH did not do it by himself.
So in no sence can the Father be involved in the creation with a lessor being.
So what does this scripture mean to you then….
Eph 3:9
And to make all [men] see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in *God*, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Interesting how as far as I can tell only the KJV text reads that way:eph 3 ESV
9and(U) to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery(V) hidden for ages in God(W) who created all things, 10so that through the church the manifold(X) wisdom of God(Y) might now be made known to(Z) the rulers and authorities(AA) in the heavenly places.I find that suspect, however regardless, this boils down to semantics IMO. Through, by, for etc… all of these expressions are saying that YHVH created the world in action, The Father in principle.
MSNo. It is not semantics. There is only one God that created all things.
How about this one…
Heb 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.Two beings did not create the world or the Hebrew scriptures are in contradiction.
Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD (YHWH)? and there is no God else beside me; a just *God and a Saviour*; there is *none beside me*.Hsa 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: *for there is no saviour beside me*.There is “None beside me, beside me there is none”.
Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; *that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*;Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: *I am the LORD; and there is none else*.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and *there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,Notice the scriptures say there is “No God Beside him” and “None like me”.
*I am the LORD; and there is none else*.
Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and *there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,The God of the Hebrews faith is Monotheistic, not Henotheistic or Polytheistic.
Yes, none of the other sons helped in creation only YHVH via the power of his father.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and *there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,this is correct. there is no longer like in the days of old other elohim. they all got judged and dethroned. psalm 82 YHVH is now the only elohim in charge of a nation. the other nations fell victim to the fallen angels. but the world to come is not to be subject to the angels. christ incarnated and stripped even the angels of their dominion. so that is king and God of all the earth all the nations.
Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 16 2007,12:43) The Godhead is a binity. That is the order of administration. You say trinity because the Holy spirit gets personified. You take this understanding and make 3 beings (2 actually) and make them one being with multiple personalities. However, I hold that Jesus (YHVH) is a distinct being not just one personality of a Godforce. He is one of the sons of The Father. In fact, the only son left who wasn't judged and deposed.
I believe this occured because Judaism became increasingly hardline monotheistic. They even began to deny the existence of angels. Judaism merged El with YHVH. The Greek christians not knowing any better followed their example. They assumed that the jews must know what they are talking about and they had to merge Jesus and the Father. They followed this example so much that in the 4th century they stopped using the septuagint and started using the hebrew text that wasn't finalized until after 100 AD. Our modern bibles reflect this with the masoretic text. The masoretic text shows the results of the jewish people trying to get rid of the evidence that christians used for christ.
MSYou say the Holy Spirit is not a person then how do you explain this…
Jn 16:
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for *he shall not speak of himself*; but whatsoever he shall hear, *that shall he speak*: and he will shew you things to come.
14 *He shall glorify me*: for he shall receive of mine, *and shall shew it unto you*.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he (the Spirit) *shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you*.Is the Father subject to Yeshua. And If the Spirit is not personal then what of all the scriptures that shows he is.
Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 16 2007,13:00) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 16 2007,12:51) Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 16 2007,12:29) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 16 2007,12:14) Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 16 2007,12:05) He is the source of all, without the power given to his son then YHVH can do nothing. In that sense yes the Father did have something to do with it.
MSThe hebrew scriptures says “By myself” “None Other”.
If you say that YHWH did by the power of the Father then YHWH did not do it by himself.
So in no sence can the Father be involved in the creation with a lessor being.
So what does this scripture mean to you then….
Eph 3:9
And to make all [men] see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in *God*, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Interesting how as far as I can tell only the KJV text reads that way:eph 3 ESV
9and(U) to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery(V) hidden for ages in God(W) who created all things, 10so that through the church the manifold(X) wisdom of God(Y) might now be made known to(Z) the rulers and authorities(AA) in the heavenly places.I find that suspect, however regardless, this boils down to semantics IMO. Through, by, for etc… all of these expressions are saying that YHVH created the world in action, The Father in principle.
MSNo. It is not semantics. There is only one God that created all things.
How about this one…
Heb 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.Two beings did not create the world or the Hebrew scriptures are in contradiction.
Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD (YHWH)? and there is no God else beside me; a just *God and a Saviour*; there is *none beside me*.Hsa 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: *for there is no saviour beside me*.There is “None beside me, beside me there is none”.
Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; *that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*;Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: *I am the LORD; and there is none else*.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and *there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,Notice the scriptures say there is “No God Beside him” and “None like me”.
*I am the LORD; and there is none else*.
Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and *there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,The God of the Hebrews faith is Monotheistic, not Henotheistic or Polytheistic.
Yes, none of the other sons helped in creation only YHVH via the power of his father.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and *there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,this is correct. there is no longer like in the days of old other elohim. they all got judged and dethroned. psalm 82 YHVH is now the only elohim in charge of a nation. the other nations fell victim to the fallen angels. but the world to come is not to be subject to the angels. christ incarnated and stripped even the angels of their dominion. so that is king and God of all the earth all the nations.
MSYou totally avoid the scriptures that says there was no one beside YHWH that created all things nor that was even like him.
If the Father gave YHWH the power then surely the Father was beside him at creation.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 16 2007,13:03) Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 16 2007,13:00) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 16 2007,12:51) Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 16 2007,12:29) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 16 2007,12:14) Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 16 2007,12:05) He is the source of all, without the power given to his son then YHVH can do nothing. In that sense yes the Father did have something to do with it.
MSThe hebrew scriptures says “By myself” “None Other”.
If you say that YHWH did by the power of the Father then YHWH did not do it by himself.
So in no sence can the Father be involved in the creation with a lessor being.
So what does this scripture mean to you then….
Eph 3:9
And to make all [men] see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in *God*, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Interesting how as far as I can tell only the KJV text reads that way:eph 3 ESV
9and(U) to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery(V) hidden for ages in God(W) who created all things, 10so that through the church the manifold(X) wisdom of God(Y) might now be made known to(Z) the rulers and authorities(AA) in the heavenly places.I find that suspect, however regardless, this boils down to semantics IMO. Through, by, for etc… all of these expressions are saying that YHVH created the world in action, The Father in principle.
MSNo. It is not semantics. There is only one God that created all things.
How about this one…
Heb 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.Two beings did not create the world or the Hebrew scriptures are in contradiction.
Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD (YHWH)? and there is no God else beside me; a just *God and a Saviour*; there is *none beside me*.Hsa 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: *for there is no saviour beside me*.There is “None beside me, beside me there is none”.
Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; *that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*;Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: *I am the LORD; and there is none else*.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and *there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,Notice the scriptures say there is “No God Beside him” and “None like me”.
*I am the LORD; and there is none else*.
Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and *there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,The God of the Hebrews faith is Monotheistic, not Henotheistic or Polytheistic.
Yes, none of the other sons helped in creation only YHVH via the power of his father.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and *there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,this is correct. there is no longer like in the days of old other elohim. they all got judged and dethroned. psalm 82 YHVH is now the only elohim in charge of a nation. the other nations fell victim to the fallen angels. but the world to come is not to be subject to the angels. christ incarnated and stripped even the angels of their dominion. so that is king and God of all the earth all the nations.
MSYou totally avoid the scriptures that says there was no one beside YHWH that created all things nor that was even like him.
If the Father gave YHWH the power then surely the Father was beside him at creation.
i know you wont like this answer but I believe this is semantics.I believe that YHVH was not refering to the power and authority given him by the father, but was referring to the other deposed elohim.
There truly is no other elohim like him. they have fallen like men.
Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 15 2007,16:36) •v33 – if the Jews did not know this forgotten God, the Father, they sure seemed to think so back in John 8:41. In any case, who do you suppose the Jews were referring to when they said “God” and they called Him Father back in 8:41? My Answer:
John 8
54Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word.Jesus tells them they don't know him.
Ah, but you forget to look into why Yeshua says they do not know HimJoh 8:19 So they were saying to Him, “Where is Your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also.”
But I guess you'll come back and say that they didn't know he was YHWH so I guess they wouldn't know his Father either. Strange though, none of his apostles said he was the God of Israel either…
So I guess they were all blind to who he was. I guess only he and the unnamed God knew.
Quote •v34 – Yeshua was speaking directly to the Jews, The Jews knew the SHEMA like nothing else in their life. So how would they have taken Yeshua quoting Psalms 86? My Answer:
Deuteronomy 6:4
4`Hear, O Israel, YHVH our Elohim, is one YHVHThe verse states that there is only one YHVH, one version. (many versions existed including some that had a YHVH with an Ashteroth consort).
YHVH is Israels Elohim, admitting other nations had their own Elohim.
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
Since Paul was writing to Gentiles in his Epistle to the gentiles, does this means that YHWH/Yeshua will remain only the God of Israel and that God the Father is God of the Gentiles? But in the meantime, YHWH/Yeshua is our Lord? And when the NT says “God our Savior” is that God the Father or YHWH/Yeshua?
Quote •v35 – here's the kicker and the one verse that puts the smackdown on your “proof”. Who did the word of God come to? Prophets, kings, and judges. Men. My Answer:
The word of God comes to whoever it was sent to. In this case the word of God came to the Sons of God (the elohim) being judged at the divine council. You assume Jesus is referring to scripture as the word of God, not the actual declaration itself being the word of God. The scriptures describing this event can’t be broken, true. But the word of God came unto those sons who were Judged.
No you're assuming I'm assuming. When I see the “word of God” I don't see that as scripture; I see it as direct inspiration from God. So he was saying he was one of those gods and the Jews were just standing there befuddled because they didn't know who these gods were because they thought they were human judges.Where do we see God the Father in the OT? Or is He completely absent from the OT with the exception of Ps 82? Who is God in Genesis 1? Who is God in any part of the OT when it is not accompanied by YHWH?
Quote •v36 – the word used for “sanctified” is “hagiazō”, which means to be made holy. Are you saying that God the Father had to make YHWH holy before he walked among mankind in the flesh? Hey, I just realized the same could apply for those who say Yeshua was a “person” of God; that is, why would God need to be made holy?!? My Answer:
Mark 10
18And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.
God here meaning the Father. Jesus (YHVH) is good and holy but only through complete obedience to the will of his Father who is only truly innately good.So even before he came in the flesh, he was not innately good like God the Father? Thus he was able to be tempted as he was when he came? Which God was James talking about here?
Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
Are we to assume then in the NT then we we see God alone, it is always God the Father? Why did the Father show up — because YHWH/Yeshua made such a mess of things so now he had to step back in and take over?
Quote Anyway, it doesn't look like Yeshua shares your view of him… My Answer:
I am not dogmatic, but at this stage I disagree.
Of course you do
Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 15 2007,17:18) Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 16 2007,10:12) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 16 2007,10:10) MS, But you've yet to address that YHWH was called “Most High”. This puts a humongous hurdle in your path.
Not if all things were given to the Son from The Father. He inherited it all. He became most high.
Example:Psa 97:9 For You are the LORD [YHWH] Most High over all the earth; You are exalted far above all gods.
YHVH is the Firstborn he has been exatled above all the other sons of El.
He has been given the ultimate inheritence “all things”. Because he loves and obeys his Father completely.
We have the option to join this family and become part of it ourselves where in turn we receive a joint inheritence becoming brothers of Christ and sons of God.
Completing the circle. A complete restoration of the original glories creation.
So I guess the Father said “Okay Yahweh/Yeshua, you've made a big mess out of things, although you did do better than your brothers (who I killed). Therefore, I'm sending you amongst them to die for your mistakes. Oh, and I'm taking 'Most High' back from you. You don't really deserve it.”Mar 5:7 And crying out with a loud voice, he said, “What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me.”
Luk 1:32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David,
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy–the Son of God.
Luk 8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell down before him and said with a loud voice, “What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, do not torment me.”
Or can there be more than one “Most High”. I thought “most” meant other things were under it. Right now, I'm picturing swiss cheese.
MS,
What of these verses?
Mat 5:9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
Luk 20:36 for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Rom 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
Gal 3:26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
Since Yeshua is called our brother, and he is a son of God, will we be gods too? Woohoo, I'm climbing aboard your bandwagon. I don't feel like a god, but wait till the girls find out…
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 16 2007,13:35) MS, What of these verses?
Mat 5:9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
Luk 20:36 for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Rom 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
Gal 3:26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
Since Yeshua is called our brother, and he is a son of God, will we be gods too? Woohoo, I'm climbing aboard your bandwagon. I don't feel like a god, but wait till the girls find out…
Yes we receive a joint inheritence. We become elohim. Only those with the spirit of God can be called the sons of God. hence, angels are not.we will judge angels, we will sit on thrones ruling the earth. we will be kings and high priests. it will be us taking the place of the fallen sons next to our brother Jesus.
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 16 2007,13:29) Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 15 2007,17:18) Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 16 2007,10:12) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 16 2007,10:10) MS, But you've yet to address that YHWH was called “Most High”. This puts a humongous hurdle in your path.
Not if all things were given to the Son from The Father. He inherited it all. He became most high.
Example:Psa 97:9 For You are the LORD [YHWH] Most High over all the earth; You are exalted far above all gods.
YHVH is the Firstborn he has been exatled above all the other sons of El.
He has been given the ultimate inheritence “all things”. Because he loves and obeys his Father completely.
We have the option to join this family and become part of it ourselves where in turn we receive a joint inheritence becoming brothers of Christ and sons of God.
Completing the circle. A complete restoration of the original glories creation.
So I guess the Father said “Okay Yahweh/Yeshua, you've made a big mess out of things, although you did do better than your brothers (who I killed). Therefore, I'm sending you amongst them to die for your mistakes. Oh, and I'm taking 'Most High' back from you. You don't really deserve it.”Mar 5:7 And crying out with a loud voice, he said, “What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me.”
Luk 1:32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David,
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy–the Son of God.
Luk 8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell down before him and said with a loud voice, “What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, do not torment me.”
Or can there be more than one “Most High”. I thought “most” meant other things were under it. Right now, I'm picturing swiss cheese.
die for his mistakes? one could say this about your view too. except that someone else had to die for God's mistake. (if i understand your position correctly) but I think we both don't believe that. this is basically blaming God regardless of how you view him.the Father is the Most High God
and yes the Son has been called the Most High many times, however, I believe this is a usage to decribe his exalted state over the other elohim. Just as he is called king of kings and lord of lords in revelations titles he has INHERITED from his Father.
anyones view can be attacked through semantics, misunderstood language usage and even various translations. This is something every position must contend with.
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 16 2007,13:17) Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 15 2007,16:36) •v33 – if the Jews did not know this forgotten God, the Father, they sure seemed to think so back in John 8:41. In any case, who do you suppose the Jews were referring to when they said “God” and they called Him Father back in 8:41? My Answer:
John 8
54Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word.Jesus tells them they don't know him.
Ah, but you forget to look into why Yeshua says they do not know HimJoh 8:19 So they were saying to Him, “Where is Your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also.”
But I guess you'll come back and say that they didn't know he was YHWH so I guess they wouldn't know his Father either. Strange though, none of his apostles said he was the God of Israel either…
right, except the apostles did call him God and Lord many times.
So I guess they were all blind to who he was. I guess only he and the unnamed God knew.
Quote •v34 – Yeshua was speaking directly to the Jews, The Jews knew the SHEMA like nothing else in their life. So how would they have taken Yeshua quoting Psalms 86? My Answer:
Deuteronomy 6:4
4`Hear, O Israel, YHVH our Elohim, is one YHVHThe verse states that there is only one YHVH, one version. (many versions existed including some that had a YHVH with an Ashteroth consort).
YHVH is Israels Elohim, admitting other nations had their own Elohim.
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
Since Paul was writing to Gentiles in his Epistle to the gentiles, does this means that YHWH/Yeshua will remain only the God of Israel and that God the Father is God of the Gentiles? But in the meantime, YHWH/Yeshua is our Lord? And when the NT says “God our Savior” is that God the Father or YHWH/Yeshua?
No Yeshua inherited all nations and is Lord and God of all nations. The Father and Jesus both have a role in salvation. However, no other elohim had a role. (for those who will quote the verse that say I am the savior and their is none other)
Quote •v35 – here's the kicker and the one verse that puts the smackdown on your “proof”. Who did the word of God come to? Prophets, kings, and judges. Men. My Answer:
The word of God comes to whoever it was sent to. In this case the word of God came to the Sons of God (the elohim) being judged at the divine council. You assume Jesus is referring to scripture as the word of God, not the actual declaration itself being the word of God. The scriptures describing this event can’t be broken, true. But the word of God came unto those sons who were Judged.
No you're assuming I'm assuming
. When I see the “word of God” I don't see that as scripture; I see it as direct inspiration from God. So he was saying he was one of those gods and the Jews were just standing there befuddled because they didn't know who these gods were because they thought they were human judges.MMM… ok i think we agree here.
Where do we see God the Father in the OT?
In various places the translations make this somewhat confusing, but I could try and find some significant verses to highlight this.
Or is He completely absent from the OT with the exception of Ps 82? Who is God in Genesis 1?
it is many gods (elohim), though specifically YHVH interacting with adam and eve later one.
Who is God in any part of the OT when it is not accompanied by YHWH?
Quote •v36 – the word used for “sanctified” is “hagiazō”, which means to be made holy. Are you saying that God the Father had to make YHWH holy before he walked among mankind in the flesh? Hey, I just realized the same could apply for those who say Yeshua was a “person” of God; that is, why would God need to be made holy?!? My Answer:
Mark 10
18And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.
God here meaning the Father. Jesus (YHVH) is good and holy but only through complete obedience to the will of his Father who is only truly innately good.So even before he came in the flesh, he was not innately good like God the Father? Thus he was able to be tempted as he was when he came? Which God was James talking about here?
He is good but had a possiblity of choosing evil like his brothers.
James is talking about God the Father.
Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
Are we to assume then in the NT then we we see God alone, it is always God the Father? Why did the Father show up — because YHWH/Yeshua made such a mess of things so now he had to step back in and take over?
No not always. the Context makes a difference.
Quote Anyway, it doesn't look like Yeshua shares your view of him… My Answer:
I am not dogmatic, but at this stage I disagree.
Of course you doI am open to change in beliefs, though, I believe it is true that most people won't change when strong faith is on the line and they think they are defending truth. this particular view also requires an enormous paradigm shift, most would never make.
Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 15 2007,21:17) Fully read my post under biblical henotheism so I don't have to repeat alot of it here. Please.
No thanks. I've already seen your view. It can be found at http:realtruth.org and http://www.thercg.org . I don't need to read it twice. Anyone who makes the bold assertion that they are of God's true church (seemingly to the exclusion of others) receives a fairly deaf ear from me.Of course, it is real truth to the writers of these sites, but not so much for those who like to believe all 66 books of the Bible.
Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 15 2007,22:01) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 16 2007,13:17) Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 15 2007,16:36) •v33 – if the Jews did not know this forgotten God, the Father, they sure seemed to think so back in John 8:41. In any case, who do you suppose the Jews were referring to when they said “God” and they called Him Father back in 8:41? My Answer:
John 8
54Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word.Jesus tells them they don't know him.
Ah, but you forget to look into why Yeshua says they do not know HimJoh 8:19 So they were saying to Him, “Where is Your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also.”
But I guess you'll come back and say that they didn't know he was YHWH so I guess they wouldn't know his Father either. Strange though, none of his apostles said he was the God of Israel either…
right, except the apostles did call him God and Lord many times.
I get the Lord part, but show me the “many” times for God. Remember LORD (YHWH) and Lord (“kurios”) are REALLY not alike.Quote No Yeshua inherited all nations and is Lord and God of all nations. The Father and Jesus both have a role in salvation. However, no other elohim had a role. (for those who will quote the verse that say I am the savior and their is none other)
So how does this agree with 1 Cor 8:6 again?!?Quote Where do we see God the Father in the OT? In various places the translations make this somewhat confusing, but I could try and find some significant verses to highlight this.
Or is He completely absent from the OT with the exception of Ps 82? Who is God in Genesis 1?
it is many gods (elohim), though specifically YHVH interacting with adam and eve later one.
OK, show me.Quote
He is good but had a possiblity of choosing evil like his brothers.James is talking about God the Father.
What makes you think so? There is no Father here. Did Yeshua/YHWH stop being God in the NT? What proof do you have of this?Quote I am open to change in beliefs, though, I believe it is true that most people won't change when strong faith is on the line and they think they are defending truth. this particular view also requires an enormous paradigm shift, most would never make.
Well, I am glad you are open because the present theology you espouse is full of holes. I would sooner give in to the trinity or give up on Jesus altogether before I accept this. That is, with the scripture we have. Please do not be swayed by the doctrine of men, look to the Bible and be led by the Spirit.Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 16 2007,16:03) Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 15 2007,21:17) Fully read my post under biblical henotheism so I don't have to repeat alot of it here. Please.
No thanks. I've already seen your view. It can be found at http:realtruth.org and http://www.thercg.org . I don't need to read it twice. Anyone who makes the bold assertion that they are of God's true church (seemingly to the exclusion of others) receives a fairly deaf ear from me.Of course, it is real truth to the writers of these sites, but not so much for those who like to believe all 66 books of the Bible.
I am not family with these groups. My standard views of scripture is very much likes t8s.I am simply sharing a view that I have been reading up on that seems to have some substance to it imo.
This view I am sharing is the majority view of non-religious biblical scholars who are trying to reconstruct the origins of christianity and bring to light the scriptural and archaelogical evidance for a henotheistic ancient judaism.
I know this most likely won't mean one bit of difference to you, but it does to me. Why? Because, most people of faith have apriori that they just wont sway from nor do most people ever truly change their beliefs. With this in mind I find myself only able to trust the athiests. Sad isnt it? The athiests may have an agenda but it wont be one based in dogma or doctrine.
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 16 2007,16:03) Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 15 2007,21:17) Fully read my post under biblical henotheism so I don't have to repeat alot of it here. Please.
No thanks. I've already seen your view. It can be found at http:realtruth.org and http://www.thercg.org . I don't need to read it twice. Anyone who makes the bold assertion that they are of God's true church (seemingly to the exclusion of others) receives a fairly deaf ear from me.Of course, it is real truth to the writers of these sites, but not so much for those who like to believe all 66 books of the Bible.
I think I have seen your views as well, it is some form of adoptionism. As well as the trinitarians….etc….With this condescending opinion how would any of us read each others posts?
Unless our agenda is not to learn from others but to just to teach?
I checked out those sites trcg.com and I don not believe what they believe on pratically everything I read.
So you must not know my view.
Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 15 2007,23:48) I checked out those sites trcg.com and I don not believe what they believe on pratically everything I read. So you must not know my view.
Well, not on all stuff, but they too believe that YHWH/Yeshua is the God of the OT/NT and that God the Father was being revealed by Yeshua. From http://www.realtruth.org/articles/367-awjwosa.htmlOne of these Beings, called “the Word,” later became Jesus Christ (John 1:14). Christ was the YHWH (“Lord”) of the Old Testament (I Cor. 10:1-4), who created all things (John 1:3; Eph. 3:9; Col. 1:16-17).
The other God-Being, called “the Father,” was unknown to mankind, and had to be revealed by Jesus Christ (Matt. 11:27).
There is one God (I Tim. 2:5), but there are two Beings who share the name “God.” Elohim is a uniplural term, like the word “family”—one family, but consisting of many members. “God” is a family name!
Although Jesus Christ is subordinate to the Father (John 14:28), the Bible clearly reveals that He is on the God-plane and is the second member of the God Family.
Also from http://www.thercg.org/books/ttigtio.html
Christianity came to accept that the Father was directly involved as the Creator, rather than creating through Christ. The Bible clearly states that Christ (the Word) created all things (John 1:1-14; Col. 1:13-17).
Christianity came to accept that the Father was the God or Lord of the Old Testament. But the Bible shows that this personage was actually Christ (I Cor. 10:1-4).
Christianity believed that many people had spoken with the Father (during the Old Testament era). Yet, Christ declared that no man had seen or heard God the Father (John 5:37). And, because the Father was unknown to the world, one of the purposes of Christ’s coming was to reveal Him (John 1:18, Luke 10:22).
Christianity accepted the premise of Judaism concerning monotheism—that God was one being. Yet, two distinct God Beings are identified in the prologue of the book of John (1:1-2). Likewise, Genesis 1:26 records a conversation between these two God Beings. Notice: “Let Us make man in Our image…” Here, the term “God” derives from the Hebrew Elohim (a plural term—actually a collective noun—similar to kingdom, family or church). Although there is one God Kingdom or Family, Scripture reveals that it currently consists of two Beings.
The Jewish doctrine of monotheism derives from their misunderstanding of Deuteronomy 6:4, “Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God is one Lord.” This passage is more accurately translated “Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God is Lord alone (or Lord only).” The verse is not talking about God as one Being—is not addressing the nature of God—but rather was instruction to Israel to not listen to other gods, but to listen to the true God alone—only! A later chapter will discuss this more thoroughly.
Rather than the God Family being a closed loop trinity, as accepted by Christianity, this Family is set to expand through the many begotten sons of God yet to be born into it (John 1:11-12; Rom. 8:14, 19; I John 3:1-2). A later chapter will also cover in greater detail the awesome potential of human beings.
That is the view you share, correct? That was what I was referring to. Although they, like the Trinitarians, try to say that these two Gods are one so they can retain their sense of monotheism. At least you are honest and call what you believe henotheism.
But recall I said I don't care for them saying they were the only true church. It sounds just like what the RCC says. Christianity and Jesus do not belong to any one church except his church!
Ok i see that they have a somewhat simular view. My view would probably be more xtreme than their binity doctrine.
I am saying that The bible teaches the Caananite religion through the perspective of those who followed YHVH the Good Son of El, the firstborn and creator.
The Hebrews being fortunate enough to belong to the only surving elohim of El's great pantheon who through being righteouss as Israel's God received as an inheritence all the peoples of the earth since his brothers were dethroned.
MS,
Here is another fly in your ointment. The ESV supports “sons of God” is Deu 32:8-9
Deu 32:8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.
Deu 32:9 But the LORD's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage.Can you be certain that “sons of God” did not mean peoples? How does the above compare with this verse:
Exo 4:22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, Israel is my firstborn son,
Thus God is saying that Israel (Jacob) IS His Son. His firstborn to be precise, indicating their status.
So all that is being said in Deu 32:8-9 is that the nations were divided by peoples. Israel was God's firstborn, His chosen people.
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