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My thoughts are that the Father is the Most High Elohim of many Elohim.
The Father has no name (as the early christians declared, look into it) for nobody existed before him to give him one.
YHVH is Jesus the son of the Most High God. The Old Testament God is not the Father in most cases but rather the son, YHVH (Jesus).
The Most High El begot his first born son YHVH (Jesus) and many other bene elohim (sons of God). We are made in the image of these elohim (plural). Not angels btw read
Hebrews 1:5
5For to which of the angels did God ever say,“You are my Son,
today I have begotten you”?Or again,
“I will be to him a father,
and he shall be to me a son”?6And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”
7Of the angels he says,(Q) “He makes his angels winds,
and his ministers a flame of fire.”
8But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”Who are these “fellows or companions”. The other sons of God who are not angels.
The tier ranking of the elohim:
1. The Most High Father source of all.
2. The sons of God (including Jesus)
3. The angelsDeuteronomy 32:8-9
8When the Most High (El Elyon) gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God
9But the LORD’s (YHVH) portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.The Sons of God received nations that they were to be gods over. YHVH received Israel as his inheritence from the Most High Father.
The other Elohim (pagan gods of the other nations) besides YHVH (Jesus) were ruling badly and unfairly. They were judged and made to perish like mortals leaving YHVH (Jesus) to inherit all Nations not just Israel.
Psalms 82
1(B) God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of(D) the gods he(E) holds judgment:
2″How long will you judge unjustly
and(F) show partiality to(G) the wicked?
Selah3(H) Give justice to(I) the weak and the fatherless;
(J) maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
4(K) Rescue the weak and the needy;
(L) deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”
5(M) They have neither knowledge nor understanding,
(N) they walk about in darkness;
(O) all the foundations of the earth are(P) shaken.6(Q) I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
7nevertheless, like men you shall die,
and fall like any prince.”[a]8(S) Arise, O God, judge the earth;
for you shall(T) inherit all the nations!Verse 7 declares the doom of the other sons of God who are sentenced to die like mortal men.
Verse 8 declares YHVH (Jesus) the God of the whole earth who shall inherit all nations since the Most High stripped them of their rule and gave them to Christ after he rose to the right hand of the father.
John Chapter 10, Jesus Quotes Psalm 82
At the Temple in Jerusalem during the Feast of Dedication Jesus was asked:“Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, ‘How long do you make us to doubt? If you be the Christ [Messiah], tell us plainly.’”
John 10:24
Jesus answers and refers them to His sheep and His works as testimony whether He was the Messiah.
“‘My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.’ Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Jesus answered them, ‘Many good works have I showed you from my Father [which they saw and acknowledged]; for which of those works do you stone me?’
The Jews answered him, saying, ‘For a good work we stone you not [admitting He did good works]; but for blasphemy; and because that you, being a man, make yourself God [Greek, theos].’”
[Jesus answered them] Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, You are gods?’ [citing Psalm 82:6] If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say you of him, whom the Father [1] has sanctified [makes holy], and [2] sent [sends] into the world, ‘You blaspheme’; because I said, ‘I am THE Son of God?’”
John 10:29–36
They understood there were other Sons of God. They knew exactly what He was quoting in Psalm 82:6.
“‘If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though you believe not me, believe the works: that you may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.’ Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand.”
John 10:37–39
Observations: Jesus statement that He was “the Son of God” was defended by His quoting Psalm 82, He was referring to all of it. 19 Jesus’ reference to the “gods” meant “the Sons of the Most High” in Psalm 82:6. The Jews understood this. Jesus identifies Himself with the Elohim in Psalm 82:8! Jesus was saying that He was to be given all the authority taken from the other Sons by God the Father. This is the reason they sought to stone Him. Compare these verses:
“Arise, O Elohim, judge the earth: for you shall inherit all nations [goyim, the nations].”
Psalm 82:8
“Ask of me, and I shall give you the heathen [goyim, the nations] for your inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for your possession.”
Read my post on biblical henotheism for more.
Please give input, thanks.
MS,
I've seen this before. I don't know where this belief originated, but I can see where people get it from. In the NT, there is no mention of YHWH (YHVH), just the Son of God and God the Father. Since YHWH is not mentioned in the NT, than this leaves it wide open to assert that since Yeshua has a name, and the God of the OT had a name (YHWH), than they are one in the same. And that Yeshua came to reveal the Father that was never revealed in the OT.
“Hey guess what guys, sorry to not tell you for the last 4000 years, but I have a Father. Isn't that great. Well, I'm here to reveal Him!”
But wait…
Isa 63:16 For You are our Father, though Abraham does not know us And Israel does not recognize us. You, O LORD [YHWH], are our Father, Our Redeemer from of old is Your name.
Jer 3:4 “Have you not just now called to Me, 'My Father, You are the friend of my youth?
Jer 3:19 “Then I said, 'How I would set you among My sons And give you a pleasant land, The most beautiful inheritance of the nations!' And I said, 'You shall call Me, My Father, And not turn away from following Me.'
Jer 3:20 “Surely, as a woman treacherously departs from her lover, So you have dealt treacherously with Me, O house of Israel,” declares the LORD [YHWH]Psa 89:1 A Maskil of Ethan the Ezrahite. I will sing of the lovingkindness of the LORD [YHWH] forever; To all generations I will make known Your faithfulness with my mouth.
Psa 89:26 “He will cry to Me, 'You are my Father, My God, and the rock of my salvation.'Joh 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'”
So, in light of this scriptural evidence, are you then saying that God the Father, the Father of Yeshua, who is also called our Father by the Son of God himself, is not the same Father pointed out in Is 63:16, Jer 3:4, Jer 3:19, and Ps 89:26? Do we now have two Fathers?
You need to do some research into Jewish superstition around the time Yeshua came on the scene. It had become somewhat taboo to call God by YHWH so they started calling Him Adonai or any other various names, and this in turn may have lead to “kurios” replacing YHWH in the Greek OT.
Also, read some works by Philo of Alexandria, a Hellenistic Jew who lived close to the beginning of the 1st century. He does not use YHWH anywhere in his writings, and he was not a Christian. He instead constantly referred to God as “Father”.
Sorry, but this theology already has some hurdles to jump over…
Yes it has hurdles as do all.
However, this theology existed in many Christian circles in the 1st century. The Gnostics were one of them. But they believed the God of the OT was evil and that Jesus was a new God sent by the father. I am not suggesting that.
Deuteronomy 32:8-9
8When the Most High (El Elyon) gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God
9But the LORD’s (YHVH) portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.I would like an explanation of this. To me and a rather large number of scholars this verse implies YHVH received his inheritence of Israel as the other sons inherited the pagan nations. He got his inheritence from the Most High El Elyon.
Morningstar,
Have you forgotten Mary? What use does she have in your theory? What did she contribute, if anything? Thanks.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 16 2007,05:15) Morningstar, Have you forgotten Mary? What use does she have in your theory? What did she contribute, if anything? Thanks.
I am not sure what you mean. I believe that Mary was the human vessel that YHVH used to enter humanity. Elohim becoming man.Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 15 2007,12:09) Yes it has hurdles as do all. However, this theology existed in many Christian circles in the 1st century. The Gnostics were one of them. But they believed the God of the OT was evil and that Jesus was a new God sent by the father. I am not suggesting that.
Deuteronomy 32:8-9
8When the Most High (El Elyon) gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God
9But the LORD’s (YHVH) portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.I would like an explanation of this. To me and a rather large number of scholars this verse implies YHVH received his inheritence of Israel as the other sons inherited the pagan nations. He got his inheritence from the Most High El Elyon.
No explanation needed. The Most High IS YHWHGen 14:22 Abram said to the king of Sodom, “I have sworn to the LORD [YHWH] God Most High, possessor of heaven and earth,
Psa 7:17 I will give thanks to the LORD according to His righteousness And will sing praise to the name of the LORD [YHWH] Most High.
Psa 47:2 For the LORD [YHWH] Most High is to be feared, A great King over all the earth.
Psa 83:18 That they may know that You alone, whose name is the LORD [YHWH], Are the Most High over all the earth.
Psa 97:9 For You are the LORD [YHWH] Most High over all the earth; You are exalted far above all gods.
Oh, and look — here is another instance of YHWH being called Father, right there from the chapter you are asking about:
Deu 32:6 “Do you thus repay the LORD [YHWH], O foolish and unwise people? Is not He your Father who has bought you? He has made you and established you.
This another instance of forming theology without balancing it properly with the rest of scripture.
I follow, but many are called father in the bible and in everyday life.
The difference is in semantics. a father vs. The Father. a god vs. The God.
Here Jesus is called a father.
Isaiah 9:6
6(A) For to us a child is born,
to us(B) a son is given;
 and the government shall be(D) upon[a] his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful(E) Counselor,(F) Mighty God,
(G) Everlasting(H) Father, Prince of(I) Peace.Comparison of John 10 and Psalm 82:
Jesus reply in Jn 10 makes far more sense if he is referring to
divine beings, because he is making the claim that he himself is divine. If he was merely referring to human judges, then he is simply calling himself a man. I don't think this is what the Gospel is trying to say. On the contrary, it is making the claim that Jesus is God.Then what purpose does it serve to say that the “gods” (presuming they are men here) would die like mere men if they were always going to die as mere men? If it was always going to be the case, then why say “like mere men”?
No, in the case of Ps 82, the gods of the divine council are condemned to die like mere men because they fail to govern the earth properly. No one expects the gods to die as mere men, so their condmenation to die as mere men is quite telling. This Psalsm calls for an end to henotheism with its national deities each ruling a particular domain, and calls for a new monotheism in which a single deity governs the entire earth. Notice that the scope isn't simply national Israel, but universal. The gods of the nations — not the judges of Israel — have failed to govern the world. Therefore God must needs sack this cabinet and assume autocratic control himself.
He gives all authority to the one son (son of God / Elohim) that is righteous and hated wickeness.
Hebrews 1
8But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;therefore God, your God,(S) has anointed you
with(T) the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”Who are his companions? The other doomed sons of God the pagan elohim. Sin no angel is ever called a son.
Hebrews 1
5For to which of the angels did God ever say,(M) “You are my Son,
today I have begotten you”?psalm 82
8(S) Arise, O God, judge the earth;
for you shall(T) inherit all the nations!So one son does Arise and rule all nations under is Father the Most High.
Hebrews 1
1Long ago, at many times and(A) in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2but(B) in these last days he has spoken to us by(D) his Son, whom he appointed(E) the heir of all things,(F) through whom also he created(G) the world. 3He is the radiance of the glory of God and(H) the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.(I) After making purification for sins,(J) he sat down(K) at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4having become as much superior to angels as the name(L) he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
No longer just the son who inherited Israel now he inherits the whole world at the demise of the other sons of God.
Deuteronomy 32:8-9
8When the Most High(Q) gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders[a] of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
9But the LORD’s portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.The gods died and with it henotheism. The fallen angels stepped in and took their place. They were the prince of persia and greece…etc…
Christ finally appeared and stripped all power from the angels and assumed his role as the lone righteous and good Son left to inherit all the nations.
Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 16 2007,05:09) Yes it has hurdles as do all. However, this theology existed in many Christian circles in the 1st century. The Gnostics were one of them. But they believed the God of the OT was evil and that Jesus was a new God sent by the father. I am not suggesting that.
Deuteronomy 32:8-9
8When the Most High (El Elyon) gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God
9But the LORD’s (YHVH) portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.I would like an explanation of this. To me and a rather large number of scholars this verse implies YHVH received his inheritence of Israel as the other sons inherited the pagan nations. He got his inheritence from the Most High El Elyon.
MSYou are correct that the scriptures when referring to YHWH is not always the Father.
Zech 14:1
Behold, the day of the LORD [YHWH] cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For *I* will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.These two verses seems to be the Father speaking.
But then we read…
3 Then shall the LORD (YHWH) go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.Without question the Lord/YHWHs feet will stand on Mt Olives., and we know this is Yeshua.
As confirmed by the Angels and the witnesses here…
Acts 1:10
And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.Jesus will return as he left and his feet will land on the Mt of Olives.
And when that day comes he truly will be extablished as King of Kings and Lord of Lords in the earth ruling over all.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD (YHWH) my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
This is a vivid descrption of the return of Yeshua with his saints.
There is no scripture anywhere that the Father will leave heaven and come to the earth.
Yeshua truly is the YHWH of the OT. There are many more scriptures that bear this out.
Jesus who is the “image of the invisible God” which means he is God that we can see, was seen by many of the OT Hebrews.
However, man made theorys of agency will try and explain these things away.
We agree WJ but from different angles.
Correct me if I am wrong but you are saying that the “person” Jesus inherited Israel from the “person” The Father, but they are the same God.
I am saying the Most High God gave Israel to one of his sons named YHVH or Jesus. Two different Gods. Though of the same substance and all that due to being begotten.
Explain the trinity in light of all these sons receiving inheritence. YHVH is just one of the sons receiving an inheritence. He is not a multiple personality of the Father or if he is so are the other sons as well.
The other sons loose their inheritence due to poor stewardship and then the one Good Son, The Good Shepard inherits all nations as a gift from his Father.
Biblical Henotheism. But now Monotheism or Binitarianism since the other sons are dead and died like mere men as pronounced in psalm 82.
One all powerful all knowing source of all things, the Father.
One remaining Son who inherited all things from his Father since the other Sons where wicked.Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 15 2007,13:11) I follow, but many are called father in the bible and in everyday life. The difference is in semantics. a father vs. The Father. a god vs. The God.
Here Jesus is called a father.
Isaiah 9:6
6(A) For to us a child is born,
to us(B) a son is given;
© and the government shall be(D) upon[a] his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful(E) Counselor,(F) Mighty God,
(G) Everlasting(H) Father, Prince of(I) Peace.
But you are again taking one verse and overriding several others just to support a theology. So what is Abraham then?Gen 17:5 “No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.
I would like to get your impressions on this theology as a whole. I think I have brought up several key verses that imply a plurality of sons who ruled the nations under a Father. Just like the caananites did.
Most secular historians who are not bound by a religious belief system agree with my position. (google it) I personally think that the fear of being blasphemous to even consider this position holds many back from even giving it a closer look.
Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 15 2007,13:47) Comparison of John 10 and Psalm 82: Jesus reply in Jn 10 makes far more sense if he is referring to
divine beings, because he is making the claim that he himself is divine. If he was merely referring to human judges, then he is simply calling himself a man. I don't think this is what the Gospel is trying to say. On the contrary, it is making the claim that Jesus is God.
So is he also calling the Pharisees “gods”? How many “gods” do you have in your form of henotheism?And that IS the point of what Yeshua said. He was comparing himself to other men appointed by God to reveal the will of YHWH to the people. Too bad so many before him did such a poor job of it!
Quote Then what purpose does it serve to say that the “gods” (presuming they are men here) would die like mere men if they were always going to die as mere men? If it was always going to be the case, then why say “like mere men”?
Because he was making the point that their status would not prevent them dying just as any other mortal man would, and that they were not that special in His eyes. How does this support your theology? Did not Yeshua die as a mere man on the tree? I would say he died a much more humiliating death than these other “gods” did.Quote No, in the case of Ps 82, the gods of the divine council are condemned to die like mere men because they fail to govern the earth properly. No one expects the gods to die as mere men, so their condmenation to die as mere men is quite telling. This Psalsm calls for an end to henotheism with its national deities each ruling a particular domain, and calls for a new monotheism in which a single deity governs the entire earth. Notice that the scope isn't simply national Israel, but universal. The gods of the nations — not the judges of Israel — have failed to govern the world. Therefore God must needs sack this cabinet and assume autocratic control himself.
Huh? Can I have whatever you're putting in your orange juice
? Quote He gives all authority to the one son (son of God / Elohim) that is righteous and hated wickeness. Hebrews 1
8But of the Son he says,® “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;therefore God, your God,(S) has anointed you
with(T) the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”Who are his companions? The other doomed sons of God the pagan elohim. Sin no angel is ever called a son.
Hebrews 1
5For to which of the angels did God ever say,(M) “You are my Son,
today I have begotten you”?psalm 82
8(S) Arise, O God, judge the earth;
for you shall(T) inherit all the nations!So one son does Arise and rule all nations under is Father the Most High.
Hebrews 1
1Long ago, at many times and(A) in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2but(B) in these last days© he has spoken to us by(D) his Son, whom he appointed(E) the heir of all things,(F) through whom also he created(G) the world. 3He is the radiance of the glory of God and(H) the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.(I) After making purification for sins,(J) he sat down(K) at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4having become as much superior to angels as the name(L) he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
No longer just the son who inherited Israel now he inherits the whole world at the demise of the other sons of God.
Deuteronomy 32:8-9
8When the Most High(Q) gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he® divided mankind,
he fixed the borders[a] of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
9But the LORD’s portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.The gods died and with it henotheism. The fallen angels stepped in and took their place. They were the prince of persia and greece…etc…
Christ finally appeared and stripped all power from the angels and assumed his role as the lone righteous and good Son left to inherit all the nations.
How did henotheism die in your view? You say that YHWH is the God of the OT and NT, but that the Father is another God who is revealed in the NT. Is this not henotheism or polytheism?!?Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 16 2007,05:56) Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 16 2007,05:15) Morningstar, Have you forgotten Mary? What use does she have in your theory? What did she contribute, if anything? Thanks.
I am not sure what you mean. I believe that Mary was the human vessel that YHVH used to enter humanity. Elohim becoming man.
So Mary did not contribute her DNA to your version of Jesus? Mary was merely the surogate body by which God entered humanity? I realize this is a bit off topic here, but I'm trying to establish who and what you believe God/Jesus to be so I can follow you on other topics. Thanks.Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 16 2007,07:25) We agree WJ but from different angles. Correct me if I am wrong but you are saying that the “person” Jesus inherited Israel from the “person” The Father, but they are the same God.
I am saying the Most High God gave Israel to one of his sons named YHVH or Jesus. Two different Gods. Though of the same substance and all that due to being begotten.
Explain the trinity in light of all these sons receiving inheritence. YHVH is just one of the sons receiving an inheritence. He is not a multiple personality of the Father or if he is so are the other sons as well.
The other sons loose their inheritence due to poor stewardship and then the one Good Son, The Good Shepard inherits all nations as a gift from his Father.
Biblical Henotheism. But now Monotheism or Binitarianism since the other sons are dead and died like mere men as pronounced in psalm 82.
One all powerful all knowing source of all things, the Father.
One remaining Son who inherited all things from his Father since the other Sons where wicked.
Oh, dear…..say no more. I follow you now. I understand who and what you believe Jesus to be. I completely disagree, respectfully. I'll be listening and watching but not joining in….Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 16 2007,07:25) We agree WJ but from different angles. Correct me if I am wrong but you are saying that the “person” Jesus inherited Israel from the “person” The Father, but they are the same God.
I am saying the Most High God gave Israel to one of his sons named YHVH or Jesus. Two different Gods. Though of the same substance and all that due to being begotten.
Explain the trinity in light of all these sons receiving inheritence. YHVH is just one of the sons receiving an inheritence. He is not a multiple personality of the Father or if he is so are the other sons as well.
The other sons loose their inheritence due to poor stewardship and then the one Good Son, The Good Shepard inherits all nations as a gift from his Father.
Biblical Henotheism. But now Monotheism or Binitarianism since the other sons are dead and died like mere men as pronounced in psalm 82.
One all powerful all knowing source of all things, the Father.
One remaining Son who inherited all things from his Father since the other Sons where wicked.
MSWhere we differ is I find no scripture that says Yeshua or “YHWH” was a son of God before he came in the flesh.
Deuteronomy 32:8-9
8When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
9But the LORD’s portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.Deut 32:8,9 dosnt say “YHWH” was one of the “sons of God”, in fact it makes a distinction between them…
9 But the LORD’s (YHWHs) portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.There is no scripture that I am aware of that says Yeshua was a son before he came in the flesh.
Jn 1:1 says the 'Word was God” not the “Word” was a son of God.
Yeshua owns all things. Was not everything made by him and for him?
Also, since Yeshua is the one who created all things by his hands according to Heb 1:10, then if he is not God then it would be a contradiction to the fact that YHWH Alone created all things and that he is our “Only” saviour, which these scriptures bear out…
Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD (YHWH); and *beside me there is no saviour*.Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD (YHWH)? and there is no God else beside me; a just *God and a Saviour*; there is *none beside me*.Hsa 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: *for there is no saviour beside me*.There is “None beside me, beside me there is none”.
Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; *that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*;Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: *I am the LORD; and there is none else*.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and *there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,These scriptures bear out that God not only is our only Saviour, but also he says that he alone created the heavens and there is…
“None like him”, “None beside him' but “By Myself”. and “None Else” have I made all things.
Yet we see NT scriptures that are “Unambiguous” in making Yeshua the Saviour and the Creator.
How do you explain this?
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 16 2007,07:49) Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 15 2007,13:47) Comparison of John 10 and Psalm 82: Jesus reply in Jn 10 makes far more sense if he is referring to
divine beings, because he is making the claim that he himself is divine. If he was merely referring to human judges, then he is simply calling himself a man. I don't think this is what the Gospel is trying to say. On the contrary, it is making the claim that Jesus is God.
So is he also calling the Pharisees “gods”? How many “gods” do you have in your form of henotheism?And that IS the point of what Yeshua said. He was comparing himself to other men appointed by God to reveal the will of YHWH to the people. Too bad so many before him did such a poor job of it!
Quote Then what purpose does it serve to say that the “gods” (presuming they are men here) would die like mere men if they were always going to die as mere men? If it was always going to be the case, then why say “like mere men”?
Because he was making the point that their status would not prevent them dying just as any other mortal man would, and that they were not that special in His eyes. How does this support your theology? Did not Yeshua die as a mere man on the tree? I would say he died a much more humiliating death than these other “gods” did.Quote No, in the case of Ps 82, the gods of the divine council are condemned to die like mere men because they fail to govern the earth properly. No one expects the gods to die as mere men, so their condmenation to die as mere men is quite telling. This Psalsm calls for an end to henotheism with its national deities each ruling a particular domain, and calls for a new monotheism in which a single deity governs the entire earth. Notice that the scope isn't simply national Israel, but universal. The gods of the nations — not the judges of Israel — have failed to govern the world. Therefore God must needs sack this cabinet and assume autocratic control himself.
Huh? Can I have whatever you're putting in your orange juice? Quote He gives all authority to the one son (son of God / Elohim) that is righteous and hated wickeness. Hebrews 1
8But of the Son he says,® “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;therefore God, your God,(S) has anointed you
with(T) the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”Who are his companions? The other doomed sons of God the pagan elohim. Sin no angel is ever called a son.
Hebrews 1
5For to which of the angels did God ever say,(M) “You are my Son,
today I have begotten you”?psalm 82
8(S) Arise, O God, judge the earth;
for you shall(T) inherit all the nations!So one son does Arise and rule all nations under is Father the Most High.
Hebrews 1
1Long ago, at many times and(A) in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2but(B) in these last days© he has spoken to us by(D) his Son, whom he appointed(E) the heir of all things,(F) through whom also he created(G) the world. 3He is the radiance of the glory of God and(H) the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.(I) After making purification for sins,(J) he sat down(K) at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4having become as much superior to angels as the name(L) he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
No longer just the son who inherited Israel now he inherits the whole world at the demise of the other sons of God.
Deuteronomy 32:8-9
8When the Most High(Q) gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he® divided mankind,
he fixed the borders[a] of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
9But the LORD’s portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.The gods died and with it henotheism. The fallen angels stepped in and took their place. They were the prince of persia and greece…etc…
Christ finally appeared and stripped all power from the angels and assumed his role as the lone righteous and good Son left to inherit all the nations.
How did henotheism die in your view? You say that YHWH is the God of the OT and NT, but that the Father is another God who is revealed in the NT. Is this not henotheism or polytheism?!?
You are under the belief that those referred to in psalms 82 are human judges.I am saying they were the other sons of God along with Jesus.
Jesus (YHVH) was the only son of God who loved righteouness and rightfully judged among his alotted people, Israel.
Therefore, he inherited it all from his Father the Most High.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 16 2007,08:07) Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 16 2007,05:56) Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 16 2007,05:15) Morningstar, Have you forgotten Mary? What use does she have in your theory? What did she contribute, if anything? Thanks.
I am not sure what you mean. I believe that Mary was the human vessel that YHVH used to enter humanity. Elohim becoming man.
So Mary did not contribute her DNA to your version of Jesus? Mary was merely the surogate body by which God entered humanity? I realize this is a bit off topic here, but I'm trying to establish who and what you believe God/Jesus to be so I can follow you on other topics. Thanks.
not3But from your viewpoint God did not contribute to the DNA of Jesus.
Is Jesus just a man. What part of him is God?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 16 2007,08:24) Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 16 2007,07:25) We agree WJ but from different angles. Correct me if I am wrong but you are saying that the “person” Jesus inherited Israel from the “person” The Father, but they are the same God.
I am saying the Most High God gave Israel to one of his sons named YHVH or Jesus. Two different Gods. Though of the same substance and all that due to being begotten.
Explain the trinity in light of all these sons receiving inheritence. YHVH is just one of the sons receiving an inheritence. He is not a multiple personality of the Father or if he is so are the other sons as well.
The other sons loose their inheritence due to poor stewardship and then the one Good Son, The Good Shepard inherits all nations as a gift from his Father.
Biblical Henotheism. But now Monotheism or Binitarianism since the other sons are dead and died like mere men as pronounced in psalm 82.
One all powerful all knowing source of all things, the Father.
One remaining Son who inherited all things from his Father since the other Sons where wicked.
MSWhere we differ is I find no scripture that says Yeshua or “YHWH” was a son of God before he came in the flesh.
Deuteronomy 32:8-9
8When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
9But the LORD’s portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.Deut 32:8,9 dosnt say “YHWH” was one of the “sons of God”, in fact it makes a distinction between them…
9 But the LORD’s (YHWHs) portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.There is no scripture that I am aware of that says Yeshua was a son before he came in the flesh.
Jn 1:1 says the 'Word was God” not the “Word” was a son of God.
Yeshua owns all things. Was not everything made by him and for him?
Also, since Yeshua is the one who created all things by his hands according to Heb 1:10, then if he is not God then it would be a contradiction to the fact that YHWH Alone created all things and that he is our “Only” saviour, which these scriptures bear out…
Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD (YHWH); and *beside me there is no saviour*.Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD (YHWH)? and there is no God else beside me; a just *God and a Saviour*; there is *none beside me*.Hsa 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: *for there is no saviour beside me*.There is “None beside me, beside me there is none”.
Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; *that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*;Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: *I am the LORD; and there is none else*.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and *there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,These scriptures bear out that God not only is our only Saviour, but also he says that he alone created the heavens and there is…
“None like him”, “None beside him' but “By Myself”. and “None Else” have I made all things.
Yet we see NT scriptures that are “Unambiguous” in making Yeshua the Saviour and the Creator.
How do you explain this?
Because Jesus (YHVH) is the savior and creator. He is the Son of El who created our world. We aren't disagreeing on this.We are disagreeing on the identity of the Father.
You say that the Father and Jesus are the same God with mulitple personalities.
I say Jesus (YHVH) is a son of the Most High, nameless Father and source of all.
I am saying there are two distinct beings. Jesus is the God of the Old Testament creator and savior of the world. The Father is the original source of all, the king of a pantheon of sons who are now deceased (or at least imprisoned) except for the one Good Son who inherited the whole earth no longer just Israel.
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