Jesus, THE Messiah?

[Unisage]

So what really your point in all this Towshab? That the new testament has errors and Mistranslation…and that you dont believe in the Messiah?

Shall we talk about the Torah/Tanahk/Telmud and lets bring out those mistranslation/errors in them also?Maybe if we get right down to it I might crush your faith that there is no God.Shall we do this in Private?

I mean after all it been way over 2000 years since there been a prophet..The Jews were all most wipe from the face of the Earth by germany..That would abeen a perfect time to send the Messiah would it not?

Its been so long that the Jews dont even know the name of there God anymore..Do you know? I doubt it..

Since the Jews are living under Moshe laws according to your standards..Why weren't the people stone to death in the Gay parade in Israel? After all it is God who gave the Laws to Moshe?

Let put the shoe on the other foot shall we?Lets look at
Gen. 2:18-20, where the Lord apparently brought giraffes, monkeys, elephants, and armadillos to Adam, only to find that none of them would make a good wife for him… or, Exod. 4:24-26 where the Lord sent Moses to Egypt to deliver His people, but tried to kill him on the way — because he failed to circumcise his son. And I’m sure people would also have plenty of comments to make about God’s bow that appears in the sky after the showers Gen. 9:12ff or about the “windows of heaven” that are opened to allow the rain that is above the expanse to fall to earth (Gen. 7:11).
What would the People do with the moving story of the aqedah? Would they ridicule a God Who tests the obedience of His faithful servant by asking him to slaughter his own son? Of course, people would also point out that according to the text, He is hardly omniscient — see Gen. 22:12. Would they contrast the goodness of the Heavenly Father in the New Testament with the cruelty of Yahweh in the Old — a Yahweh Whose incessant hardening of Pharaoh caused him to lead Egypt to disaster, even when Pharaoh was ready to let Israel go?

Last but not least… Remember, it is Psalm 137 — not the New Testament — that pronounces a blessing on those who smash Babylon’s babes on the rocks.

Yes we see the kind God you serve..Or is it?

Have a Great day!

[kejonn]

Quote (Unisage @ Nov. 08 2007,14:33)

So what really your point in all this Towshab? That the new testament has errors and Mistranslation…and that you dont believe in the Messiah? Shall we talk about the Torah/Tanahk/Telmud and lets bring out those mistranslation/errors in them also?Maybe if we get right down to it I might crush your faith that there is no God.Shall we do this in Private? I mean after all it been way over 2000 years since there been a prophet..The Jews were all most wipe from the face of the Earth by germany..That would abeen a perfect time to send the Messiah would it not? Its been so long that the Jews dont even know the name of there God anymore..Do you know? I doubt it.. Since the Jews are living under Moshe laws according to your standards..Why weren't the people stone to death in the Gay parade in Israel? After all it is God who gave the Laws to Moshe? Let put the shoe on the other foot shall we?Lets look at Gen. 2:18-20, where the Lord apparently brought giraffes, monkeys, elephants, and armadillos to Adam, only to find that none of them would make a good wife for him… or, Exod. 4:24-26 where the Lord sent Moses to Egypt to deliver His people, but tried to kill him on the way — because he failed to circumcise his son. And I’m sure people would also have plenty of comments to make about God’s bow that appears in the sky after the showers Gen. 9:12ff or about the “windows of heaven” that are opened to allow the rain that is above the expanse to fall to earth (Gen. 7:11). What would the People do with the moving story of the aqedah? Would they ridicule a God Who tests the obedience of His faithful servant by asking him to slaughter his own son? Of course, people would also point out that according to the text, He is hardly omniscient — see Gen. 22:12. Would they contrast the goodness of the Heavenly Father in the New Testament with the cruelty of Yahweh in the Old — a Yahweh Whose incessant hardening of Pharaoh caused him to lead Egypt to disaster, even when Pharaoh was ready to let Israel go? Last but not least… Remember, it is Psalm 137 — not the New Testament — that pronounces a blessing on those who smash Babylon’s babes on the rocks. Yes we see the kind God you serve..Or is it? Have a Great day!

Hmm, now we have two atheists and a wanna be Jew on here. This should be fun.

[david]

Towshab, you have several times mocked Jesus statement about coming quickly.

I wonder how you feel about the many Hebrew scriptures that say the Day of Jehovah is near.

JOEL 1:15
““Alas for the day; because the day of Jehovah is near, and like a despoiling from the Almighty One it will come!”

JOEL 2:1
““Blow a horn in Zion, O men, and shout a war cry in my holy mountain. Let all the inhabitants of the land get agitated; for the day of Jehovah is coming, for it is near!”

JEREMIAH 30:7
“Alas! For that day is a great one, so that there is no other like it, and it is the time of distress for Jacob. But he will be saved even out of it.””

ISAIAH 13:6-16
““Howl, YOU people, for the day of Jehovah is near! As a despoiling from the Almighty it will come. That is why all hands themselves will drop down, and the whole heart itself of mortal man will melt. And people have become disturbed. Convulsions and birth pains themselves grab hold; like a woman that is giving birth they have labor pains. They look at each other in amazement. Their faces are inflamed faces. “Look! The day of Jehovah itself is coming, cruel both with fury and with burning anger, in order to make the land an object of astonishment, and that it may annihilate [the land’s] sinners out of it. For the very stars of the heavens and their constellations of Ke′sil will not flash forth their light; the sun will actually grow dark at its going forth, and the moon itself will not cause its light to shine. And I shall certainly bring home [its own] badness upon the productive land, and their own error upon the wicked themselves. And I shall actually cause the pride of the presumptuous ones to cease, and the haughtiness of the tyrants I shall abase. I shall make mortal man rarer than refined gold, and earthling man [rarer] than the gold of O′phir. That is why I shall cause heaven itself to become agitated, and the earth will rock out of its place at the fury of Jehovah of armies and at the day of his burning anger. And it must occur that, like a gazelle chased away and like a flock without anyone to collect them together, they will turn, each one to his own people; and they will flee, each one to his own land. Every one that is found will be pierced through, and every one that is caught in the sweep will fall by the sword; and their very children will be dashed to pieces before their eyes. Their houses will be pillaged, and their own wives will be raped.”

ZEPHANIAH 1:7
“Keep silence before the Sovereign Lord Jehovah; for the day of Jehovah is near, for Jehovah has prepared a sacrifice; he has sanctified his invited ones.”

ZEPHANIAH 1:14-18
““The great day of Jehovah is near. It is near, and there is a hurrying [of it] very much. The sound of the day of Jehovah is bitter. There a mighty man is letting out a cry. That day is a day of fury, a day of distress and of anguish, a day of storm and of desolation, a day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick gloom, a day of horn and of alarm signal, against the fortified cities and against the high corner towers. And I will cause distress to mankind, and they will certainly walk like blind men; because it is against Jehovah that they have sinned. And their blood will actually be poured out like dust, and their bowels like the dung. Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to deliver them in the day of Jehovah’s fury; but by the fire of his zeal the whole earth will be devoured, because he will make an extermination, indeed a terrible one, of all the inhabitants of the earth.””

ZEPHANIAH 2:2-3
“Before [the] statute gives birth to [anything], [before the] day has passed by just like chaff, before there comes upon YOU people the burning anger of Jehovah, before there comes upon YOU the day of Jehovah’s anger, seek Jehovah, all YOU meek ones of the earth, who have practiced His own judicial decision. Seek righteousness, seek meekness. Probably YOU may be concealed in the day of Jehovah’s anger.”

In your opinion, has the day of Jehovah already come? Because it was “near” several thousand years ago.

. “What, then, will the day of Jehovah mean to you people?” God asked wayward Israel by the mouth of his prophet Amos. This: “It will be darkness, and no light, just as when a man flees because of the lion, and the bear actually meets him; and as when he went into the house and supported his hand against the wall, and the serpent bit him.” (Am 5:18-20) Isaiah was told: “Look! The day of Jehovah itself is coming, cruel both with fury and with burning anger.” (Isa 13:9) “That day is a day of fury, a day of distress and of anguish, a day of storm and of desolation, a day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick gloom.” (Zep 1:15) During such a time of trouble, one’s money is absolutely worthless. “Into the streets they will throw their very silver . . . Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to deliver them in the day of Jehovah’s fury.”—Eze 7:19; Zep 1:18.

A sense of urgency is attached to the day of Jehovah by the prophets, who repeatedly warned of its nearness. “The great day of Jehovah is near. It is near, and there is a hurrying of it very much.” (Zep 1:14) “Alas for the day; because the day of Jehovah is near.” “Let all the inhabitants of the land get agitated; for the day of Jehovah is coming, for it is near!”—Joe 1:15; 2:1, 2.

I realize that some of these referred to different times of destructive judgment that occurred long ago at the hands of the Most High. For example, Isaiah envisioned what would befall unfaithful Judah and Jerusalem on “the day belonging to Jehovah of armies,” which was coming “upon everyone self-exalted and lofty” among them. (Isa 2:11-17)

But I feel the major fulfillment of these is yet to come. What is your understanding?

[Towshab]

Quote (david @ Nov. 08 2007,17:05)

Towshab, you have several times mocked Jesus statement about coming quickly. I wonder how you feel about the many Hebrew scriptures that say the Day of Jehovah is near. JOEL 1:15 ““Alas for the day; because the day of Jehovah is near, and like a despoiling from the Almighty One it will come!” JOEL 2:1 ““Blow a horn in Zion, O men, and shout a war cry in my holy mountain. Let all the inhabitants of the land get agitated; for the day of Jehovah is coming, for it is near!” JEREMIAH 30:7 “Alas! For that day is a great one, so that there is no other like it, and it is the time of distress for Jacob. But he will be saved even out of it.”” ISAIAH 13:6-16 ““Howl, YOU people, for the day of Jehovah is near! As a despoiling from the Almighty it will come. That is why all hands themselves will drop down, and the whole heart itself of mortal man will melt. And people have become disturbed. Convulsions and birth pains themselves grab hold; like a woman that is giving birth they have labor pains. They look at each other in amazement. Their faces are inflamed faces. “Look! The day of Jehovah itself is coming, cruel both with fury and with burning anger, in order to make the land an object of astonishment, and that it may annihilate [the land’s] sinners out of it. For the very stars of the heavens and their constellations of Ke′sil will not flash forth their light; the sun will actually grow dark at its going forth, and the moon itself will not cause its light to shine. And I shall certainly bring home [its own] badness upon the productive land, and their own error upon the wicked themselves. And I shall actually cause the pride of the presumptuous ones to cease, and the haughtiness of the tyrants I shall abase. I shall make mortal man rarer than refined gold, and earthling man [rarer] than the gold of O′phir. That is why I shall cause heaven itself to become agitated, and the earth will rock out of its place at the fury of Jehovah of armies and at the day of his burning anger. And it must occur that, like a gazelle chased away and like a flock without anyone to collect them together, they will turn, each one to his own people; and they will flee, each one to his own land. Every one that is found will be pierced through, and every one that is caught in the sweep will fall by the sword; and their very children will be dashed to pieces before their eyes. Their houses will be pillaged, and their own wives will be raped.” ZEPHANIAH 1:7 “Keep silence before the Sovereign Lord Jehovah; for the day of Jehovah is near, for Jehovah has prepared a sacrifice; he has sanctified his invited ones.” ZEPHANIAH 1:14-18 ““The great day of Jehovah is near. It is near, and there is a hurrying [of it] very much. The sound of the day of Jehovah is bitter. There a mighty man is letting out a cry. That day is a day of fury, a day of distress and of anguish, a day of storm and of desolation, a day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick gloom, a day of horn and of alarm signal, against the fortified cities and against the high corner towers. And I will cause distress to mankind, and they will certainly walk like blind men; because it is against Jehovah that they have sinned. And their blood will actually be poured out like dust, and their bowels like the dung. Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to deliver them in the day of Jehovah’s fury; but by the fire of his zeal the whole earth will be devoured, because he will make an extermination, indeed a terrible one, of all the inhabitants of the earth.”” ZEPHANIAH 2:2-3 “Before [the] statute gives birth to [anything], [before the] day has passed by just like chaff, before there comes upon YOU people the burning anger of Jehovah, before there comes upon YOU the day of Jehovah’s anger, seek Jehovah, all YOU meek ones of the earth, who have practiced His own judicial decision. Seek righteousness, seek meekness. Probably YOU may be concealed in the day of Jehovah’s anger.” In your opinion, has the day of Jehovah already come? Because it was “near” several thousand years ago. . “What, then, will the day of Jehovah mean to you people?” God asked wayward Israel by the mouth of his prophet Amos. This: “It will be darkness, and no light, just as when a man flees because of the lion, and the bear actually meets him; and as when he went into the house and supported his hand against the wall, and the serpent bit him.” (Am 5:18-20) Isaiah was told: “Look! The day of Jehovah itself is coming, cruel both with fury and with burning anger.” (Isa 13:9) “That day is a day of fury, a day of distress and of anguish, a day of storm and of desolation, a day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick gloom.” (Zep 1:15) During such a time of trouble, one’s money is absolutely worthless. “Into the streets they will throw their very silver . . . Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to deliver them in the day of Jehovah’s fury.”—Eze 7:19; Zep 1:18. A sense of urgency is attached to the day of Jehovah by the prophets, who repeatedly warned of its nearness. “The great day of Jehovah is near. It is near, and there is a hurrying of it very much.” (Zep 1:14) “Alas for the day; because the day of Jehovah is near.” “Let all the inhabitants of the land get agitated; for the day of Jehovah is coming, for it is near!”—Joe 1:15; 2:1, 2. I realize that some of these referred to different times of destructive judgment that occurred long ago at the hands of the Most High. For example, Isaiah envisioned what would befall unfaithful Judah and Jerusalem on “the day belonging to Jehovah of armies,” which was coming “upon everyone self-exalted and lofty” among them. (Isa 2:11-17) But I feel the major fulfillment of these is yet to come. What is your understanding?

Hi david,

Yes some were historical. The 'day of YHVH' merely means a day of great judgment and it has happened many times throughout history. By saying it is 'near', the prophets (and G-d) were driving the present generation, the listeners, to action to get their lives in order. What would happen to them if they all said 'the Day of YHVH is 2000 years from now'? Well you know don't you?

It just like when I was growing up in church. I'd often hear these sermons 'I know Jesus is going to return very soon'. It sparks the people to account for their lives and get right with G-d. But you know that pulpits aren't always the place where inspiration comes so we need to look at scripture instead.

Yes I admit to 'mocking' Jesus when he says he is coming quickly. But I do so because (1) I don't thing that the historical Jesus said this cause he died and (2) he made other statements that put a tighter restriction on the date range. That is one thing you won't find in the Tanakh.

Here's an example

Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Now what is 'this generation'? Christian apologists would say since he said it so at least 2000 years is 'this generation'. But that does not match the Greek.

The same word that is used for 'generation' here is used in the genealogy of Matthew 1 (not 1:1 but 1:17). Therefore 'generation' is much shorter. In fact if you look back to the Tanakh usage of 'generation' you will find it is associated with generations of people. So for
instance, I would be one generation but my son would be another.

I would dare say that any generation could last 2000 years.

So couple this with 'coming quickly' and you know where I come from. Paul was expecting him any day. But then we're always longing for better times are we not?

[Towshab]

Quote (Unisage @ Nov. 08 2007,14:33)

So what really your point in all this Towshab? That the new testament has errors and Mistranslation…and that you dont believe in the Messiah?

Yes, yes, and yes. How astute of you to notice. But you forgot one: that the new testament tries to ‘prove’ that Jesus is the end times Moshiach but fails to do so because Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies of the end times.

Quote

Shall we talk about the Torah/Tanahk/Telmud and lets bring out those mistranslation/errors in them also?Maybe if we get right down to it I might crush your faith that there is no God.Shall we do this in Private?

Nope. You can publicize it all day. But know that when you do you will be providing a two-pronged attack because when you couple what I am doing with undermining the Jewish scriptures you take everything away from the Christians. They will not have their new testament and the roots, the ‘old testament’ will be obliterated as well. So be my guest. I, on the other hand will not be very easy to shake.

Quote

I mean after all it been way over 2000 years since there been a prophet..The Jews were all most wipe from the face of the Earth by germany..That would abeen a perfect time to send the Messiah would it not?

Yes they killed quite a few but guess what? Still 12 millions Jews in the world. G-d never promised they’d be a populous people. Yet the world just can’t seem to wipe them all out as hard as they may try.

Quote

Its been so long that the Jews dont even know the name of there God anymore..Do you know? I doubt it..

YHVH, YHWH but the very first that was recorded of Him was Elohim. YHVH is rooted in the phrase ‘to be’ hence the popular rendering ‘I AM’. El Shaddai is used many times as well.

Quote

Since the Jews are living under Moshe laws according to your standards..Why weren't the people stone to death in the Gay parade in Israel? After all it is God who gave the Laws to Moshe?

Eh not all of them. Depends if they call themselves Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Hasidic, Reconstructionist, etc. Orthodox still stick pretty close to the Torah.

But as far as ‘stoning’ people you have to understand that Israel has many different people there as we do in America. Atheists make up a fair part of the population. The government nor the legal system is run by a Sanhedrin. The Great Sanhedrin was done away with in the 4th century and with it any other form of Sanhedrin. So there has been no official form of punishment doled out according to Torah law since that time. The gov't of Israel is fairly secular.

Quote

Let put the shoe on the other foot shall we?Lets look at Gen. 2:18-20, where the Lord apparently brought giraffes, monkeys, elephants, and armadillos to Adam, only to find that none of them would make a good wife for him…

That’s odd considering the word for ‘wife’ is not found anywhere in that verse. But it is found in Gen 2:24 and the word is ‘ishshah’.

Quote

or, Exod. 4:24-26 where the Lord sent Moses to Egypt to deliver His people, but tried to kill him on the way — because he failed to circumcise his son.

Hey rules is rules. They were a covenant people and that was the biggie back then. Moses couldn’t expect to be disobedient just for the sake of his wife (and son). Abraham was circumcised as an adult in obedience. It may seem harsh to you but how could G-d expect that Moses would carry out His work if he was disobedient in even the smaller things?

Quote

And I’m sure people would also have plenty of comments to make about God’s bow that appears in the sky after the showers Gen. 9:12ff or about the “windows of heaven” that are opened to allow the rain that is above the expanse to fall to earth (Gen. 7:11).

Ah a literalist eh? You DO know that much of the bible is symbolic right? Does G-d have wings (Ps 17:8). You must have too much of a Christian mentality when you read the Tanakh.

Quote

What would the People do with the moving story of the aqedah? Would they ridicule a God Who tests the obedience of His faithful servant by asking him to slaughter his own son? Of course, people would also point out that according to the text, He is hardly omniscient — see Gen. 22:12.

How does this disprove His omniscience? Notice that this G-d, however, does not sacrifice a human like the one in the Christian bible does. A test of faith versus an actual sacrifice of a human, world of difference.

Quote

Would they contrast the goodness of the Heavenly Father in the New Testament with the cruelty of Yahweh in the Old — a Yahweh Whose incessant hardening of Pharaoh caused him to lead Egypt to disaster, even when Pharaoh was ready to let Israel go?

There are consequences for what you do. The hundreds of years of mistreatment of the Israelites demanded a little more than a ‘time out’.

Quote

Last but not least… Remember, it is Psalm 137 — not the New Testament — that pronounces a blessing on those who smash Babylon’s babes on the rocks.

An atheist favorite! You must either be a deist or an atheist I see. So you really wouldn’t care if both the Christian bible and the Jewish one were ground to dust. Hey have at it you won’t sway me.

But do we see where G-d supposedly inspired whoever wrote Psalm 137:9 to say this? Do we see a scriptural reference where G-d approved? Nope. Psalms were sometimes about praise and other times about retribution. They served as a reminder of the very human people who penned them. The Tanakh was all about humanity and the many choices humans make, even those who serve G-d. After all, David had a man killed and he was after G-d’s own heart.

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Yes we see the kind God you serve..Or is it?

Well considering that G-d did not write Psalms 137:9 I don’t see an issue do you? Or the fact that G-d wants our obedience? Moses was the one to deliver all of G-d’s people he had to show his obedience, his faith. It wasn’t like he was just going to deliver a singing telegram to Pharaoh.

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Have a Great day!

Already did!

[david]

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Hello again, David – Thanks for your concern. I believe I will take your advice and move on to other threads….. My health has been a bit curious lately. It is believed that I may have a brain tumor.

I am extremely sorry to hear about your health, Mandy. You should know and understand that we should in no way be taking towshab serious, don't you? If you want to know what these beliefs about Jesus not existing are based on, they are based largely on the works of very few people.

I'd like you to go to this website:
http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/jesusexisthub.html

Spend your time there. Click on the links. Understand that Jesus did exist, without question.

[Towshab]

Quote (kejonn @ Nov. 08 2007,16:35)

Hmm, now we have two atheists and a wanna be Jew on here. This should be fun.

Well maybe. Its a big step you know. Not like the easy 'all you have to do is repent and believe'. That is why there are 2.1 billion Christians and so few Jews. Christians practically beg you to 'believe' but rabbis push you away. Christianity, aka 'Judaism Lite' (0 Commandments, less filling), is much easier.

Just believe!

[charity]

Quote (kejonn @ Nov. 09 2007,09:35)

Have a Great day![/quote] Hmm, now we have two atheists and a wanna be Jew on here. This should be fun.

[Towshab]

Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

This second quote comes from 2 Sam 7:14. Is this supposed to be Jesus?

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2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

================================

Well since it was originally about Solomon it makes senses. Yet the writer of Hebrews wants to use it for Jesus too so why stop short?

What of this verse

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Joh 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
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This ‘prophecy’ comes from Psalms 41. Lets look at the context.

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Psa 41:4 I said, LORD, be merciful unto me: heal my soul; for I have sinned against thee.
Psa 41:5 Mine enemies speak evil of me, When shall he die, and his name perish? {Is this the Prince of Peace?}

Psa 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.
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Guess that can’t really be Jesus since he never sinned right? But it seems that many of the things ‘prophesied’ about Jesus show he is to be sinful.

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Joh 2:17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up. {Ps 69:9}

Joh 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause. {Ps 69:4}

Joh 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. {Ps 69:21}

Rom 15:3 For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me. {Ps 69:9}
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These are all quotes from Psalm 69. Let’s look at some context of that chapter to see if this is supposed to be Jesus spoken of.

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Psa 69:5 O God, thou knowest my foolishness; and my sins are not hid from thee.

Psa 69:11 I made sackcloth also my garment; and I became a proverb to them.

Psa 69:27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.

Psa 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
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Sound like the Jesus you know? And if his sacrifice was needed why would this same ‘prophecy’ say this?

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Psa 69:30 I will praise the name of God with a song, and will magnify him with thanksgiving.
Psa 69:31 This also shall please the LORD better than an ox or bullock that hath horns and hoofs.
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The Psalmist is saying that praise is better than sacrifices! So much for ‘needing the blood’.

[Towshab]

No more sin sacrifices because of Jesus?

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Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
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Christians say that according to their bible there will be no more sin sacrifices because Jesus ‘paid it all’. What does G-d’s Holy Tanakh say?

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Eze 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Eze 3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

Eze 44:27 And in the day that he goeth into the sanctuary, unto the inner court, to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering, saith the Lord GOD.

Eze 44:29 They shall eat the meat offering, and the sin offering, and the trespass offering; and every dedicated thing in Israel shall be theirs.

Eze 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.
================================

Whoops! Seems Jesus’ blood isn’t that permanent after all!

[Towshab]

The Old Covenant replaced by the New?

================================
Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law {Torah}, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

Mic 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law {Torah} shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. {NOTE THIS ONE CHRISTIANS}
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If Paul says circumcision means nothing, what will many Christians do in the messianic age?

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Eze 44:7 In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations.
================================

Seems being circumcised in your heart will only get you halfway. But keep following Paul, he wouldn’t steer you wrong. Or would he?

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Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
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That’s what Paul claims but what does G-d in His Holy Tanakh say?

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Psa 119:44 So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.

Psa 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

Psa 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

Psa 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.
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In the Jewish bible ‘forever’ means just that. With Paul, it expired in the first century CE.

[Towshab]

More twisting. From the Apostles Bible (so the LXX will be used lest someone cry foul)

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2Co 3:13 and not as Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the end of what was passing away.
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is removed in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
2Co 3:16 But whenever one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
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Paul should know better that this. The veil was not on Mose’s face to hide the fading of the Torah but to shield them from the glory of G-d that he had on hos face from conversing with YHVH.

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Exo 34:30 And Aaron and all the elders of Israel saw Moses, and the appearance of the skin of his face was made glorious, and they feared to approach him.
Exo 34:31 And Moses called them, and Aaron and all the rulers of the synagogue turned towards him, and Moses spoke to them.
Exo 34:32 And afterwards all the children of Israel came to him, and he commanded them all things, whatsoever the Lord had commanded him in Mount Sinai.
Exo 34:33 And when he ceased speaking to them, he put a veil on his face.
Exo 34:34 And whenever Moses went in before the Lord to speak to Him, he took off the veil till he went out, and he went forth and spoke to all the children of Israel whatsoever the Lord commanded him.
Exo 34:35 And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that it was glorified; and Moses put the veil over his face, till he went in to speak with Him.

[david]

Quote

Hi david, Yes some were historical. The 'day of YHVH' merely means a day of great judgment and it has happened many times throughout history. By saying it is 'near', the prophets (and G-d) were driving the present generation, the listeners, to action to get their lives in order. What would happen to them if they all said 'the Day of YHVH is 2000 years from now'? Well you know don't you? It just like when I was growing up in church. I'd often hear these sermons 'I know Jesus is going to return very soon'. It sparks the people to account for their lives and get right with G-d. But you know that pulpits aren't always the place where inspiration comes so we need to look at scripture instead. Yes I admit to 'mocking' Jesus when he says he is coming quickly. But I do so because (1) I don't thing that the historical Jesus said this cause he died and (2) he made other statements that put a tighter restriction on the date range. That is one thing you won't find in the Tanakh. Here's an example Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Now what is 'this generation'? Christian apologists would say since he said it so at least 2000 years is 'this generation'. But that does not match the Greek. The same word that is used for 'generation' here is used in the genealogy of Matthew 1 (not 1:1 but 1:17). Therefore 'generation' is much shorter. In fact if you look back to the Tanakh usage of 'generation' you will find it is associated with generations of people. So for instance, I would be one generation but my son would be another. I would dare say that any generation could last 2000 years. So couple this with 'coming quickly' and you know where I come from. Paul was expecting him any day. But then we're always longing for better times are we not?

–towshab.

1. If “some were historical” which ones weren't? And what would it mean if they said that day of Jehovah was “near.”
My point of course is that if you mock Jesus for saying that he was coming quickly, you have to hold to the same standards for the Hebrew scriptures, when they repeatedly say that the day of Jehovah is near.

Quote

Yes I admit to 'mocking' Jesus when he says he is coming quickly. But I do so because (1) I don't thing that the historical Jesus said this cause he died and (2) he made other statements that put a tighter restriction on the date range. That is one thing you won't find in the Tanakh. Here's an example Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

First, you are confusing two completely separate generations in these two scriptures.
The first:
MATTHEW 23:36
“Truly I say to YOU, All these things will come upon this generation.”
(Also read the context and see who he is speaking to.)

This first scripture you mentioned corresponds to this scripture:

MATTHEW 11:16-19
““With whom shall I compare this generation? It is like young children sitting in the marketplaces who cry out to their playmates, saying, ‘We played the flute for YOU, but YOU did not dance; we wailed, but YOU did not beat yourselves in grief.’ Correspondingly, John came neither eating nor drinking, yet people say, ‘He has a demon’; the Son of man did come eating and drinking, still people say, ‘Look! A man gluttonous and given to drinking wine, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ All the same, wisdom is proved righteous by its works.””

It is discussing the generation alive in Jesus day, those who should have known better.

Again, we are told of the same generation:
“Some of the scribes and Pharisees” asked Jesus for a sign. He told them and “the crowds” who were present:
“A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking for a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah the prophet. For just as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. . . . That is how it will be also with this wicked generation.” (Matthew 12:38-46)

So, that's one generation, the generation that was alive in Jesus day and that should have known who Jesus was.

But, your second scripture, has nothing to do with the first generation mentioned:

MATTHEW 24:34
“Truly I say to YOU that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.”

Jesus had said that the temple would be thrown down. Then, he was asked a multi-layer question:

MATTHEW 24:3
“While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?””

They asked about
1. the throwing down of the temple.
2. the sign of his presence (or coming) as many Bibles say.
3. the end of the system of things

Jesus then explained what would happen before the end of the Jewish system of things and at the same time what would happen during the conclusion of this system of things (this world.)

After saying all that, we come to verse 34, which speaks of the generation that would experience the things foretold. The Jewish generation did experience those things to some degree before the destruction of their system.
And the world has experience these things in much greater degree beginning in the last century.

Either way, the generation back then did experience those things.
And the generation still alive today is experiencing the major fullfillment of those things on a worldwide scale.

That 'generation' back then is not still waiting to see the fullfillment of these things.

[Unisage]

Quote (kejonn @ Nov. 09 2007,09:35)

Quote (Unisage @ Nov. 08 2007,14:33) So what really your point in all this Towshab? That the new testament has errors and Mistranslation…and that you dont believe in the Messiah? Shall we talk about the Torah/Tanahk/Telmud and lets bring out those mistranslation/errors in them also?Maybe if we get right down to it I might crush your faith that there is no God.Shall we do this in Private? I mean after all it been way over 2000 years since there been a prophet..The Jews were all most wipe from the face of the Earth by germany..That would abeen a perfect time to send the Messiah would it not? Its been so long that the Jews dont even know the name of there God anymore..Do you know? I doubt it.. Since the Jews are living under Moshe laws according to your standards..Why weren't the people stone to death in the Gay parade in Israel? After all it is God who gave the Laws to Moshe? Let put the shoe on the other foot shall we?Lets look at Gen. 2:18-20, where the Lord apparently brought giraffes, monkeys, elephants, and armadillos to Adam, only to find that none of them would make a good wife for him… or, Exod. 4:24-26 where the Lord sent Moses to Egypt to deliver His people, but tried to kill him on the way — because he failed to circumcise his son. And I’m sure people would also have plenty of comments to make about God’s bow that appears in the sky after the showers Gen. 9:12ff or about the “windows of heaven” that are opened to allow the rain that is above the expanse to fall to earth (Gen. 7:11). What would the People do with the moving story of the aqedah? Would they ridicule a God Who tests the obedience of His faithful servant by asking him to slaughter his own son? Of course, people would also point out that according to the text, He is hardly omniscient — see Gen. 22:12. Would they contrast the goodness of the Heavenly Father in the New Testament with the cruelty of Yahweh in the Old — a Yahweh Whose incessant hardening of Pharaoh caused him to lead Egypt to disaster, even when Pharaoh was ready to let Israel go? Last but not least… Remember, it is Psalm 137 — not the New Testament — that pronounces a blessing on those who smash Babylon’s babes on the rocks. Yes we see the kind God you serve..Or is it? Have a Great day! Hmm, now we have two atheists and a wanna be Jew on here. This should be fun.

By far I am not atheist..However Towshab did a number on these boards..And I have not seen anyone here to refute him. Not even you..I dont have to refute him.I know where he is coming from.There are many people who are indoctrinated.Then there are people like me who are not.

And as for wanna be a Jew..Now that a good one ..If the teacher teach that we all came from Adam and Eve..What does that make you?

You are right this should be fun..:P

[Stu]

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 09 2007,13:07)

Seems being circumcised in your heart will only get you halfway.

I didn't realise this was a medical forum.

Stuart

[david]

Quote

There are many people who are indoctrinated.Then there are people like me who are not.

Sounds like something an indoctrinated person would say.

Quote

However Towshab did a number on these boards..And I have not seen anyone here to refute him.

See the post above your post….and every second post for the first 20 pages.

[Morningstar]

That verse in Matthew 24:34

34I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

I don't have a great explanation for this verse. It is a verse that Christians shouldn't just ignore and I haven't. I have ponder it greatly. In fact this is one of the few qualms that I had to deal with in the past.

These are my thoughts.

First I looked at any other Scripture that would shine light on it:

Luke 21

22For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

25″There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

29He told them this parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.

32″I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

This passage has another qualification to Jesus statement. “Until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”

Matthew doesn't record that added bit, but Luke does.

Everything Jesus said about the destruction of Jerusalem and the dispersion happened in that generation. The Gentiles need time to turn to God. There are many passages that express that the Gentiles will be given opportunity to find the God of the Jews. You may interpret them in a different way but God said he was going to do something “NEW” and “UNEXPECTED”.

Ok after I thought about this I thought Luke does a pretty descent job of helping me understand Matthew. Then it dawned on me.

This verse is actually a strong apologetic arguement for Christ.

How?

Because it prooves that the Gospels predate 70 AD. If Matthew truly understood the end to be coming and coinciding with the fall of Jerusalem, or if he was willing to record the matter in such a way that was vague at least on that point.

Then he had to have recorded it prior to 70AD. Thus Jesus prophecy about the temple and Jursalem “CAME TRUE”.

If he had recorded Matthew after 70 AD he would not have left that passage read in a manner that would obviously lead to confusion.

[Laurel]

Quote (Samuel @ Oct. 26 2007,17:14)

May GOD have mercy on your soul. I can't discuss this anymore…this has gone way to far for me. To say that JESUS is not real is flat out blasphemy…and I can't engage in further conversation on this matter. Jesus is real…thats the only reason you can be forgiven of your sins.  Ye of little faith…May GOD have mercy on your soul. With all the beliefs out there someone or somebody is wrong.   But I can tell you without having to even look at a bible that GOD, Jesus the SON, and the HOLY GHOST are REAL AS SURE AS I'm TYPING on this forum board. You can feel the spirit in your soul…Thats real brother…if you can't “Feel” anything…I'd advise you to quit trying to prove GOD and Jesus wrong….and pray…so that you can feel something again.

Samuel,
Once again you have spoken from your heart, filled with empathy (love), for someone you do not even know.

See, Towshab, this is a man who has love for the Creator and for the Son, which blooms into love for even those lost.

This IS the friut of the Spirit. You should be able to see that much, and weep because it is not in you at this point.

[Laurel]

Tow,
Sometimes the translator of the original text used words in their own language to make it sound as close to the original as possible. Hebrew is a language which speaks to Elohim's heart. Latin is one of the languages as well as Greek, that were a punishment to the people back in Babylon who tried to build a tower to the heavens and call men gods!

Earlier you quoted that all these things would fall on this generation. As one who speaks with the Spirit of Truth, I'll translate it better for this generation of today.

This generation, in this case, means the one in which these things happen, not necessarily the one in which it was written. See?

Then there is another verse where Messiah tells the theif on the cross 'I tell you, this day you will be with me in paradise.

As a Spirit taught person, I can tell you will all confidence and Truth that this verse was re-written with another doctrine in the heart of the scribe, who was probably Latin.

This verse actually reads, “I tell you this day, you shall be with me in paradise.”

One jot or one tittle, one dash or one comma changes everything!!!

Here is another one which throws the truth seekers off the True Path:
The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses seat. Do as they do.

The corrected Hebrew writings speaks to the soul and to the Truth and is written like this:

The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses seat, do as he (Moses) does.

This verse makes clear that the Torah written by Moses (inspired by Elohim) IS Truth and our righteous instruction. Moses seat was the name for the official seat of the court back in the day. Too many people, I bet Jews too, see this changed version and become high-minded, and think the Pharisees taught the Truth of the Torah (law), when in fact, the Pharisees taught the traditions of men, not of Elohim. And My proof is Y'shua's condemnation of the Pharisees in the Messianic writings.

Ask yourself this, why would Messiah tell us to follow someone who is a bad example? He wouldn't!!

Laurel

[Not3in1]

Quote (Stu @ Nov. 09 2007,19:14)

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 09 2007,13:07) Seems being circumcised in your heart will only get you halfway. I didn't realise this was a medical forum. Stuart

I see you have resorted to mocking us again, Stu?

Goodness, really, don't you have anything better to do? Like becoming a better person?

[Author]

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