- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Terraricca,
There are a few minor problems with what you state and I do not want addressing them to damage the major point we speak on so I will not address them directly.
You are correct that the conclusion of logical argument is only as good as the information you plug into it and you are also correct that our knowledge of God increases with time as your information about him increases.
Using the information you know about God you can use logic to discover related information you also know about God. As learn more you also learn more related information. The more reliable your information is the better is that related information. Al information should be consistent with other information. If you find conflicts then you know that you have erronous information causing those conflicts as there is no conflict in scripture.
I also test what I believe against God's nature and what he wants of us. If it is not consistent with that then you know it is flawed. By God I mean the God testified of in Scripture.
Logic is therefore a tool to test the spirits of what you believe scripture teaches.
If one is led by the nature of sin which I refer to as the corrupt spirit of man then it can confound the test. That is a reality but no matter what if you are led by the corrupt spirit then you will stray. In order to go to Jesus and follow him you must be led by God.
The only way to allieviate your fear that you are led by the sinful nature is to call on God and put your trust in him that he will lead you true. Please do not let that fear cause you to stumble and fall in your pursuit of God's righteousness and his kingdom.
Inference is not your enemy but rather it is the nature of sin with us that is our enemy and to defeat that we must put our trust in the God of Jesus.
Hi KW,
So you advise us to test spititual things using nonspiritual tools like logic
Where is this corrupt spirit on man in scripture?
Did you make it up? is that wise?Fear of sin?
How can you still live in fear?
You can't abide in the Spirit while trying to save yourself.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 27 2010,20:08) Terraricca, There are a few minor problems with what you state and I do not want addressing them to damage the major point we speak on so I will not address them directly.
You are correct that the conclusion of logical argument is only as good as the information you plug into it and you are also correct that our knowledge of God increases with time as your information about him increases.
Using the information you know about God you can use logic to discover related information you also know about God. As learn more you also learn more related information. The more reliable your information is the better is that related information. Al information should be consistent with other information. If you find conflicts then you know that you have erronous information causing those conflicts as there is no conflict in scripture.
I also test what I believe against God's nature and what he wants of us. If it is not consistent with that then you know it is flawed. By God I mean the God testified of in Scripture.
Logic is therefore a tool to test the spirits of what you believe scripture teaches.
If one is led by the nature of sin which I refer to as the corrupt spirit of man then it can confound the test. That is a reality but no matter what if you are led by the corrupt spirit then you will stray. In order to go to Jesus and follow him you must be led by God.
The only way to allieviate your fear that you are led by the sinful nature is to call on God and put your trust in him that he will lead you true. Please do not let that fear cause you to stumble and fall in your pursuit of God's righteousness and his kingdom.
Inference is not your enemy but rather it is the nature of sin with us that is our enemy and to defeat that we must put our trust in the God of Jesus.
KWfirst LOGIC is part of you it is an obstacle to the spirit of truth that God gives.
the spirit is like the wind ,you can ear it , not see it,…….
when you test the word of God are you not judging the word??
Paul says to test the spirit of the words ,so the meanings of things,but doing so with the knowledge of the word of God,not with our logic or personal view.
also i have not seen the minor problems that you refer to
please explain.
KW
the fear of God is with the one who have not reach maturity in the understanding of God word,
for those who have reach maturity the fear as changed into deep love for God and from God.Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote So you advise us to test spiritual things using non-spiritual tools like logic.
This statement tells me that you do not know what spiritual things are.
Galatians 5:22-24(NIV) reads:
Quote But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote How can you still live in fear?
I chose to do as Jesus teaches and fear the One who can destroy both body and soul in hell.
Matthew 10:28(NIV) reads:
Quote Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote You can't abide in the Spirit while trying to save yourself.
It is only through walking according to the ways of the spirit that one can be saved.
Titus 1:1-2(NIV) reads:
Quote Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God's elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time,
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 28 2010,01:42) KW the fear of God is with the one who have not reach maturity in the understanding of God word,
for those who have reach maturity the fear as changed into deep love for God and from God.
That is not what scripture states. The fear of God is fearing to disobey God because you know his wrath is just even though he is merciful. In today's culture we have trouble understanding how can fear to disobey and at the same time love someone so we create spin to eliminate the aspect we find most offensive. That is not what scripture states, Matthew 10:28.Scripture tells us that obedience to his commands is love to God so fearing to disobey God is loving him. We fear to disobey him because we know that what he commands us in beneficial for us and disobedience is harmful to us.
Terraricca wrote:
Quote first LOGIC is part of you it is an obstacle to the spirit of truth that God gives.
That is a lie that Satan tells. It is certainly not taught in scripture. Rather the fruits of the spirit of truth are acts of righteousness and it is the acts of wickedness that are in opposition.
In addition Jesus used logic and those words of Satan would thus condemn Jesus actions as sinful.
Terraricca wrote:
Quote when you test the word of God are you not judging the word?
We are commanded to test the word of God to make sure it is the word of God or do understand scripture.
1 John 4:1(NIV) reads:
Quote Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Terraricca wrote:
Quote also i have not seen the minor problems that you refer to please explain.
I do not deem them important enough to address directly as it would take time and might prove distracting. They are problems that I believe will solve themselves as time goes on. I was hoping you could spot them yourself. One is “inference mind” would have been better worded as “sinful mind” and the other I thought I spied is open to debate.
Quote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 27 2010,18:46) Is there a difference? Georg
georgone you totally exterminate,
the second ;your soul or spirit is send in a place were you can not escape and forever have to cope whith your own wicketness,just a thought
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 28 2010,07:54) Terraricca wrote: Quote first LOGIC is part of you it is an obstacle to the spirit of truth that God gives.
That is a lie that Satan tells. It is certainly not taught in scripture. Rather the fruits of the spirit of truth are acts of righteousness and it is the acts of wickedness that are in opposition.
In addition Jesus used logic and those words of Satan would thus condemn Jesus actions as sinful.
Terraricca wrote:
Quote when you test the word of God are you not judging the word?
We are commanded to test the word of God to make sure it is the word of God or do understand scripture.
1 John 4:1(NIV) reads:
Quote Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Terraricca wrote:
Quote also i have not seen the minor problems that you refer to please explain.
I do not deem them important enough to address directly as it would take time and might prove distracting. They are problems that I believe will solve themselves as time goes on. I was hoping you could spot them yourself. One is “inference mind” would have been better worded as “sinful mind” and the other I thought I spied is open to debate.
Hi KW,
Do you think when we are told to test the spirits then logic is the means?Surely the Spirit of God is what shows us the things of God and the gift of discerning of spirits in particular?[1Co12]
Get your armour on and seek more useful gifts that God offers rather than rely on man's popguns.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 28 2010,07:54) Terraricca wrote: Quote first LOGIC is part of you it is an obstacle to the spirit of truth that God gives.
That is a lie that Satan tells. It is certainly not taught in scripture. Rather the fruits of the spirit of truth are acts of righteousness and it is the acts of wickedness that are in opposition.
In addition Jesus used logic and those words of Satan would thus condemn Jesus actions as sinful.
Terraricca wrote:
Quote when you test the word of God are you not judging the word?
1 John 4:1(NIV) reads:
Quote Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Terraricca wrote:
Quote also i have not seen the minor problems that you refer to please explain.
I do not deem them important enough to address directly as it would take time and might prove distracting. They are problems that I believe will solve themselves as time goes on. I was hoping you could spot them yourself. One is “inference mind” would have been better worded as “sinful mind” and the other I thought I spied is open to debate.
KWyou say;That is a lie that Satan tells. It is certainly not taught in scripture. Rather the fruits of the spirit of truth are acts of righteousness and it is the acts of wickedness that are in opposition.
———————————————————————i say ;first LOGIC is part of you it is an obstacle to the spirit of truth that God gives.
———————————-Jn 3:10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?
Jn 3:11 I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.
Jn 3:12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?did the teachers not use there logic ?it was theirs not the one of God.
Jn 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Jn 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
Jn 3:20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
Jn 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”do you understand this above not with your eyes but with God spirit.??
Jn 2:3 The wine supply ran out during the festivities, so Jesus’ mother spoke to him about the problem. “They have no more wine,” she told him.
Jn 2:4 “How does that concern you and me?” Jesus asked. “My time has not yet come.”
Jn 2:5 But his mother told the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
Jn 2:6 Six stone waterpots were standing there; they were used for Jewish ceremonial purposes and held twenty to thirty gallons each.
Jn 2:7 Jesus told the servants, “Fill the jars with water.” When the jars had been filled to the brim,
Jn 2:8 he said, “Dip some out and take it to the master of ceremonies.” So they followed his instructions.
Jn 2:9 When the master of ceremonies tasted the water that was now wine, not knowing where it had come fromthis is the first miracle of Christ, as it any meaning ??
if not why did it give glory to Christ and if yes what does it mean??Jesus did not use is logic ,he used is godly knowledge the word of God.
you say;We are commanded to test the word of God to make sure it is the word of God or do understand scripture.
———————————
1Jn4;1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the worldwhat John says to people who know the truth,to test the ideas (spirit)or interpretation coming to them;to make sure they are from God or (in line with his word)because of the false prophets.
you see it is not the same as you see it ;
what you do is taking the object as ruler instead of the ruler to mesure the object.
this is men logic.this is my understanding of Gods word
Terraricca wrote:
Quote did the teachers not use there logic ?it was theirs not the one of God.
I see that you, yourself are attempting top use logic. Your premises are that Jesus rebuke a teacher and teachers use logic therefore logic is wrong. The problem with you argument is that the logic is not valid, I.e. well founded. In order to be well founded the rebuke would have to have been for using any type of logic which it was not. In addition your second premise is unsound as a music teacher does not use logic as music is an art form. Another error is that Nicodemus is a teacher of scripture who also called Jesus a teacher that comes from God, John 3:2. Jesus rebuked him for not knowing the subject he taught, John 3:10. It would be equivalent to a math teacher not understanding the correct answer to a basic math problem
Terraricca wrote:
Quote do you understand this above not with your eyes but with God spirit.??
If I say yes then how do you know what I state is true? Rather I will try to show you.
It is simple to understand if you are reading it from the viewpoint of the spirit of righteousness. John 3:20 what is states. If you love to sin then you will not embrace the truth of the Anointed One for your conscious is not clear. Verse 21 on the other hand states that if you hunger and thirst for righteousness, i.e. want to stop sinning, obeys all of Jesus’ teachings and your conscious will be clear. Verse 17 is using the word “world” to mean “humanity” and so teaches us Jesus did not come to exist in the world to condemn the human race but instead he comes to save it. Verse 18 instructs us that those who love to sin will be condemned and those who hunger and thirst for righteousness will inherit eternal life.
This all resolves around the nature of God and the fact he calls his people to righteous as he is righteous. Those who ignore his call stand condemned as they will reject Jesus even if claiming to serve him while those who listen will not be put to shame.
Terraricca wrote:
Quote this is the first miracle of Christ, as it any meaning ??
It has a purpose for being in Scripture but it is not one of Jesus’ teachings. It is a historic account of a specific event and we can learn by Jesus’ example about just and righteous conduct. We also learn that God worked through Jesus to transform water to wine. He did not make an argument though he did state some conclusions to his mother such as “Dear woman, why do you involve me?” and “My time has not yet come.” I can not tell you whether he arrived at those conclusions by intuition or logical reasoning since Scripture does not tell us. I do know that whatever the case that it was godly knowledge. I know this through intuition and the knowledge of Scripture.
Terraricca wrote:
Quote you see it is not the same as you see it ;
No, I do not see because it literally states “to make sure they are from God”, If you read Acts 17:11 it explicitly states the Bereans were considered noble for testing Paul’s teachings against the Old Testament. This is an example of people who actually follow the command to test the spirits of what they hear. If one is considered noble for testing Paul’s teachings, which make up in a number of New Testament books, then why wouldn’t you be considered noble for testing the letter of his peers?
Personally, I go under the assumption Paul and his peers teach consistent with the Old Testament and it s only the understandings of myself and other’s that can be in error. This assumption has served me well.
Terraricca wrote:
Quote what you do is taking the object as ruler instead of the ruler to measure the object.
this is men logic.In order to make a logical argument you must have true premises. Those true premises must come from what is already known. The conclusion is the unknown factor. The very basic truth is who the Old Testament tells us God is and what he desires of his people. From that point I believe the rest of scripture is really self-evident.
I see you have not yet found where scripture calls logic an obstacle to the spirit of truth.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote Do you think when we are told to test the spirits then logic is the means?
I would state that godly logic is a means but whether you use logic or not you must be led by God.
Hi KW,
Where is the wise man?
1Cor2
HE IS THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS.
THE LORD KNOWS THE REASONINGS OF THE WISE THAT THEY ARE USELESSWhy would you elevate the playthings of men above the wisdom of God?
KW
this is your answer; Posted: Mar. 29 2010,02:33
——————————————————————————–
Terraricca wrote:Quotedid the teachers not use there logic ?it was theirs not the one of God.
I see that you, yourself are attempting top use logic. Your premises are that Jesus rebuke a teacher and teachers use logic therefore logic is wrong. The problem with you argument is that the logic is not valid, I.e. well founded. In order to be well founded the rebuke would have to have been for using any type of logic which it was not. In addition your second premise is unsound as a music teacher does not use logic as music is an art form. Another error is that Nicodemus is a teacher of scripture who also called Jesus a teacher that comes from God, John 3:2. Jesus rebuked him for not knowing the subject he taught, John 3:10. It would be equivalent to a math teacher not understanding the correct answer to a basic math problem;
your logic is wrong,even music being a art form to the teacher every note is a letter and so it is knowledge and not logic;
as for nicodemus,he understand the scriptures the way men in there logic understood it,but not in the knowledge of God word.and that why Christ told the jews they did not know the scriptures neither God.Terraricca wrote:Quote
do you understand this above not with your eyes but with God spirit.??
If I say yes then how do you know what I state is true? Rather I will try to show you.
It is simple to understand if you are reading it from the viewpoint of the spirit of righteousness. John 3:20 what is states. If you love to sin then you will not embrace the truth of the Anointed One for your conscious is not clear. Verse 21 on the other hand states that if you hunger and thirst for righteousness, i.e. want to stop sinning, obeys all of Jesus’ teachings and your conscious will be clear. Verse 17 is using the word “world” to mean “humanity” and so teaches us Jesus did not come to exist in the world to condemn the human race but instead he comes to save it. Verse 18 instructs us that those who love to sin will be condemned and those who hunger and thirst for righteousness will inherit eternal life.
This all resolves around the nature of God and the fact he calls his people to righteous as he is righteous. Those who ignore his call stand condemned as they will reject Jesus even if claiming to serve him while those who listen will not be put to shame.
as for what it says in John;
God send is son to save the world,this is true,and he did not judge the world this is true;
but the fact that he came accomplishing the law and the prophetes,he now put division between the ones who believe and do not believe;
this is how the judgement works;if you live by the truth you will come to the light,
two things are mention here ;live by the truth;-and then you will come to the light;is this speculation ,NO,is this logic ,NO this is knowledge,Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil,
so if you live the truth you come to the light (Christ)
Jn 3:20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed;
now we see that whoever does evil do not want the light and so is condemed;did i miss something??
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 29 2010,02:35) Nick Hassan wrote: Quote Do you think when we are told to test the spirits then logic is the means?
I would state that godly logic is a means but whether you use logic or not you must be led by God.
KWhere is men logic;
Mt 5:20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.Mt 12:38 Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you.”
Mt 15:1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked,
Mt 15:12 Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”Mt 16:1 The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him by asking him to show them a sign from heaven.
Mt 16:6 “Be careful,” Jesus said to them. “Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”
Mt 16:11 How is it you don’t understand that I was not talking to you about bread? But be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”Mt 23:2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.
Mt 23:13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
Mt 23:15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
Mt 23:23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
Mt 23:25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgenceMk 2:16 When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the “sinners” and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: “Why does he eat with tax collectors and ‘sinners’?”
Mk 2:18 Now John’s disciples and the Pharisees were fasting. Some people came and asked Jesus, “How is it that John’s disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees are fasting, but yours are not?”
Mk 2:24 The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”Lk 11:42 “Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone.
Lk 11:43 “Woe to you Pharisees, because you love the most important seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces.Lk 17:20 Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation
the logic of men can be seen in there action ,because your logic becomes your knowledge and is transfer to your actions.
is this answer your question ??
logic=understanding of ideas
either the understanding is true or false.
knowledge of God does not required men s logic,because this also will lead you in false understanding.
the knowledge of God has to give understanding to his spirit in the scriptures.with no men interference.
Hi KW,
Your fixation with logic is likely to cause you to become deceived.
God is not ruled by any such vain human measure.
Yet you accuse others of deception?Hi KW,
You say
“In addition Jesus used logic and those words of Satan would thus condemn Jesus actions as sinful.”Do you really understand sin at all?
Sounds more like wierd asceticism.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 29 2010,02:06) Hi KW,
Where is the wise man?
1Cor2
HE IS THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS.
THE LORD KNOWS THE REASONINGS OF THE WISE THAT THEY ARE USELESSWhy would you elevate the playthings of men above the wisdom of God?
Crafty can mean ” Skilled in or marked by underhandedness, deviousness, or deception.” which is wisdom of this world and not the wisdom of the spirit of righteousness. Of course 1 Corinthians 2 makes that point as well as 1 Corinthian 3:19-20 which in completeness states:1 Corinthians 3:19-20(NASB) reads:
Quote For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God For it is written, “He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS”; and again, “THE LORD KNOWS THE REASONINGS of the wise, THAT THEY ARE USELESS.”
Did you consider the words “For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God”? Perhaps instead you just did not understand what “this world” means as you do understand what “the flesh” means.
I am going to more context around the scriptures Paul quotes for his logical argument.
Job 5:12-16(NASB) reads:
Quote He frustrates the plotting of the shrewd,
So that their hands cannot attain success.
He captures the wise by their own shrewdness,
And the advice of the cunning is quickly thwarted.
By day they meet with darkness,
And grope at noon as in the night.
“But He saves from (P)the sword of their mouth,
And the poor from the hand of the mighty.
“So the helpless has hope,
And unrighteousness must shut its mouth.and
Psalms 94:10-11(NASB) reads:
Quote He who chastens the nations, will He not rebuke,
Even He who teaches man knowledge?
The LORD knows the thoughts of man,
That they are a mere breath.Would you please add the version of scripture you choose to use in the future as it can aid communication. There is an apparent translation variation in 1 Corinthians 3:20 between what you quoted and what the New American Standard Version reads.
About the wisdom that comes from the Spirit of righteousness it is written:
Matthew 11:19(NASB) reads:
Quote “The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.”
and
Proverbs 10:31(NASB) reads:
Quote The mouth of the righteous flows with wisdom,
But the perverted tongue will be cut out.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
