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Dear all, I wish to consider a few things written in a recent post to me.
The post text is this (broken into parts):
Quote Remember what I told you in the other thread. Don't assume that just because CERTAIN THINGS in scripture are symbolic that ALL THINGS in scripture are symbolic. It is to be noted, that the reference to 'Symbolic', was simply to rule out those things that clearly are Symbolic, of which the the whole of the descriptive content of the Book of Revelation refers.
Quote As for the rest, I've plainly stated my scriptures and the understanding written by the scholars from NETNotes – with which I agree. The understanding written by the scholars from NETNotes, does not prove anything of what the poster thinks it is saying. The poster has taken one word from the notes, and claims it is 'proof' of the whole of the topic
Even the so called 'Proof' is no proof at all:
What is a 'Heavenly Body'?
Look it up in a dictionary?
Is it what the poster thinks it is (A body of a Being from Heaven)?
No!
So where is the poster getting his ideas and definition from?Scriptures never describes any body of any Spirit at any time – except by Symbolism (What is Symbolism meant to portray?). It is a major (and dangerous) step for the poster to make a claim that Scripture says so.
Quote It is clear that you don't agree, and thats just fine and dandy with me. Despite this bold and obvious statement, the poster has posted this post to me in an attempt to once again present non-evidence that is supposed to support his view.
Can anyone see the question that illicited the post from the poster? What was the question?
Let me repeat it as an open question to anyone:
Quote It is claim by many that Scriptures show Spirits in Heaven with Bodies. I challenge you to show the verses that show your claims and where that ties in with verses showing Angels/Spirits seen by mankind in the physical world.
In giving your responses, please remember that SYMBOLIC descriptions' are not 'Real', otherwise you would have to say that in Heaven Jesus is:
1) A Lamb as if slaughtered that can 'handle' a Scroll – and
2) A Man with a sharp double-edged Sword for his tongue, Brass feet, White Wooly Hair and Lightening in his eyes- and
3) A giant Angel (is Jesus an Angel?)
All at the same time – and also – What happened to the holes in his body where he has the Candle sticks there.So, for instance, which 'Body' like that of Jesus are the elect going to be in?
Please can your responses be directly to the question. Thank you.
To all,
I have not heard why some here believe Scripture supports the teaching that the flesh and bone body Jesus revealed to his students after he rose from the dead is not his spiritual body.
Kerwin,
As opposed to the UNSPIRITUAL flesh body Jesus had before he died?
40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies;
This shows a distinction between the heavenly body and the earthly one. “Heavenly” is CONTRASTED to “earthly”.
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
Which of these bodies do those of heaven have? Natural/earthly, or spiritual/heavenly?
47 The first man was of the dust of the earth……… 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth;
We of earth are like those who are of the earth – made of dust.47 …………the second man was from heaven. 48 ………and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
If the man of the earth has a natural body made of dust, and Paul is contrasting that body to the spiritual bodies of those of heaven, why would we assume their spiritual bodies are also made of dust of the earth (flesh)?
But here's the kicker, Kerwin:
49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.We have already borne ONE likeness. And we will bear a DIFFERENT likeness.
If the second likeness looks exactly as the first, then why does he contrast them? If the likenesses are exactly the same, then verse 49 (among other verses) simply makes no sense.
Mike,
It is true the body of the sun, moon, and stars are different than terrestrial bodies but it is also true not all flesh is the same as the flesh of a beast is not the flesh of a bird. Flesh “quickened by the Spirit”, Romans 8:11, is not the same as flesh “dead because of sin”, Romans 8:10.
Which is the man from heaven? Is he the one who bears the body dead because of sin or the one whose body is quickened by the Spirit? Which of the two is the man from earth?
Mikeboll.
Quote 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; This shows a distinction between the heavenly body and the earthly one. “Heavenly” is CONTRASTED to “earthly”.
And Paul stated exactly what he meant by both:
Earthly: Animal, Fish, bird and Man
Heavenly or Celestial: Sun, Moon and Stars.Mike, you missed out a whole chunk that explains the verse.
New American/New Standard/New English:
“There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.”King James, American King James, Douy-Rheims, English Revised:
“There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.”The GLORY of one is as this, and the Glory of the other is as that. It is clear that the verse is not comparing FLESH with SPIRIT but different types of Material bodies.
Quote 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. Which of these bodies do those of heaven have? Natural/earthly, or spiritual/heavenly?
What is it that is RAISED?
The Flesh Body of the Elect / The Body that was sowed (RENEWED by the holy Spirit – Renewed not by Mortal means but BY the Power of the Holy Spirit: hence the New Birth by Water and Blood (Water is synonymous with the Holy Spirit – See Revelation, and Blood is synonymous with the Sacrifice of Jesus)When was the “Raising” of Jesus' Body carried out?
After Three days and nights.What other Scriptures corroborates this?
(“When the Last Trumpet sounds / When the dead hear the voice of Jesus)Quote (toby @ Mar. 26 2012,18:45) And Paul stated exactly what he meant by both:
Earthly: Animal, Fish, bird and Man
Heavenly or Celestial: Sun, Moon and Stars.
So Paul LITERALLY meant bodies in heaven, and contrasted them with bodies that are LITERALLY on earth?Doesn't that put a damper on your “heavenly just means aligned with God's Spirit” spin (or however you put it)?
It seems to me that when Paul says “heavenly”, he is clearly talking of things that exist in the heavens, such as the sun, moon, and stars.
So take that LITERAL meaning of “heavenly”, and apply it to the rest of the passage, and see what you come up with.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 26 2012,18:41) Mike, It is true the body of the sun, moon, and stars are different than terrestrial bodies ……………
That's really all we need to know, Kerwin. Paul used examples that people could see from the earth, such as the sun, moon, and stars, to demonstrate that all heavenly bodies are different than all earthly bodies.He was answering the question, “With what kind of body will the dead be raised?”. His mention of the sun, moon, and stars was to show an EXAMPLE that bodies in heaven are different than bodies on earth. Therefore, the earthly, flesh body we have all borne is different than the heavenly, spiritual body we shall bear.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 27 2012,06:58) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 26 2012,18:41) Mike, It is true the body of the sun, moon, and stars are different than terrestrial bodies ……………
That's really all we need to know, Kerwin. Paul used examples that people could see from the earth, such as the sun, moon, and stars, to demonstrate that all heavenly bodies are different than all earthly bodies.He was answering the question, “With what kind of body will the dead be raised?”. His mention of the sun, moon, and stars was to show an EXAMPLE that bodies in heaven are different than bodies on earth. Therefore, the earthly, flesh body we have all borne is different than the heavenly, spiritual body we shall bear.
Mike,It is true the Spirit of Christ in Paul contrasted celestial objects and terrestrial objects but she also contrasted the glory of one star to the glory of another and the flesh of one living creature to the flesh of another.
In the letter to the Romans we are taught.
Romans 8
King James Version (KJV)11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
What mortal body is quickened by his Spirit?
Is a quickened mortal body still a mortal body?
Is a quickened mortal body the same as a body that is dead because of sin?
Remember what God stated about the body that is dead because of sin?
Genesis 6:3
King James Version (KJV)3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
We know that is not how it was in the beginning as God also stated.
Genesis 2
King James Version (KJV)17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Mike.
Quote So Paul LITERALLY meant bodies in heaven, and contrasted them with bodies that are LITERALLY on earth? The verses are clear, that Paul was contrasting the Bright shining SPLENDOUR of the body in the Celestial Heaven, with the dull 'Splendour' of the Earthly Body.
The Contrast was concerning the Splender of each.
Quote Doesn't that put a damper on your “heavenly just means aligned with God's Spirit” spin (or however you put it)? No!
Context must be taken into account – being 'Literal' will get you into trouble.
It is clear that people used the word 'Heaven' in different ways, and they looked upon what we now call 'Space' (capital 'S') as 'the Celestial Heavens' – 'Place of Shining Bodies', as are the Stars, Planets, Moon and Sun.
Paul uses the language of the day, in his description of what is Heavenly. Paul cannot know what is in 'The (Spiritual) Heaven' – The Place of God and Spirits that is IN YOU and AROUND YOU, if you have THE MIND to accommodate it. Sinful persons CANNOT accommodate it ('Flesh and Blood cannot enter the Heaven')
When the Body becomes Spiritual, then it will be able to accommodate the (Spiritual) Heaven. Meanwhile, there is a port to shelter in from the storms of life – it is called 'Heaven on Earth', and there is temporary rest there for those who, as Scriptures says, can become Spiritually minded – even in their sinful and mortal flesh body.
So, I see that despite the quote showing the same verse using the word 'Celestial', you choose to use 'Heaven' as if Paul were contrasting 'Heaven' ('The abode of God and Spirits') with Earthly things.
'Poor try, Mikeboll, Poor try' and I am absolutely sure you knew exactly why you chose to out things the way you did.
Quote It seems to me that when Paul says “heavenly”, he is clearly talking of things that exist in the heavens, such as the sun, moon, and stars. As regards the Celestial Heavens of which he was speaking, yes, this is so. The context is right here, and was obvious from the start.
Quote So take that LITERAL meaning of “heavenly”, and apply it to the rest of the passage, and see what you come up with. Mike, take the CONTEXTUAL meaning…!
Even so, I fail to see what you are saying. The Contrast is about the 'Splendour' of each type of Body, those in the Shining in the Heavens, and those dull on the earth.
Please read those verses again and look at what they are really CONTRASTING. Is it not their SPLENDOUR?
To All………….Paul was just contrasting the different GLORY of DIFFERENT Physical things and showing the each things has a Glory or it own. He was not trying to say anything about a “SPIRIT BODY” at all, just showing how every thin has its own GLORY given it BY GOD. Tha tis the way it is in our Present “PHYSICAL” world. God will give our resurected Bodies Glory as He sees fit also. The whole concept of us being raised as a SPIRIT BEING is a false concept, we will be raised exactly like Jesus was and He had a “PHYSICAL” BODY, at least that is what he said it was. Some may want their Spirit clothed with a SPIRIT BODY, I want my Spirit Clothed with the Same (KIND) of Physical Body Jesus Had , that will be good enough for me, and I want that body to live for ever Just as Jesus said He is alive forever.
The is the complete Hope of the “RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD “BODY'. (IT) is brought up and restored to eternal life. I do not want to be whisked away by any type of non existent “SPIRIT BODY” . God gives it a “BODY” as He choses and to EACH A “BODY” of IT”S OWN. That is all you have to do is look up what a BODY IS> There are NO SPIRIT BODIES at all. Spirits do not have BODIES they are what is (IN) BODIES. Just that simple. IMO
peace and love to you all……………………………………………………….gene
Quote (toby @ Mar. 27 2012,04:41) The verses are clear, that Paul was contrasting the Bright shining SPLENDOUR of the body in the Celestial Heaven, with the dull 'Splendour' of the Earthly Body.
I disagree. I believe Paul was contrasting the LITERAL bodies of planets and BEINGS in heaven to the LITERAL bodies of those of the earth. After all, he was answering the question, With what kind of BODIES will the dead be raised? His answer was that the dead will be raised in the kind of spiritual body those of heaven have.Toby, once again, we disagree – and I'm okay with it. I will most likely ignore any follow up posts you make. But don't take offense, it's just that I have little else to say about it to you.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 26 2012,22:27) What mortal body is quickened by his Spirit?
Romans 8
10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.The teaching is to let your current body metaphorically die to sin. Once you've done that, this same body in which you dwell on earth will be enlivened by Spirit. That way, you will be living according to Spirit instead of the sinful desires of the flesh.
The teaching has nothing to do with the teaching of 1 Cor 15.
Mike………We are not talking about a Metaphor concerning our Bodies they are still alive even if we have sin, Paul was simply tell people to live as if your bodies were dead to sin but alive unto God. He still was not saying that our existing “REAL” Bodies are truly DEAD , You using a Metaphor and then transforming it into a reality concerning Bodies. Non of that Changes where Paul Said (IT) (our bodies) are sown in weakness and (IT) (our Bodies) are “RAISED” In POWER and GLORY. None of your “SPIRIT BODY” “BEING” thing fits that at all. Every picture in scripture show it is the Body that is SOWN that is RAISED IN GLORY and HONOR. That is exactly what the “IT” Is in those scriptures. (IT) is a Physical BODY he is speaking of not a SPIRIT BODY of any kind. Because Spirits are not bodies of any kind. They are what is (IN) Bodies of all Kinds.
peace and love……………………………………………………………..gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 28 2012,07:29) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 26 2012,22:27) What mortal body is quickened by his Spirit?
Romans 8
10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.The teaching is to let your current body metaphorically die to sin. Once you've done that, this same body in which you dwell on earth will be enlivened by Spirit. That way, you will be living according to Spirit instead of the sinful desires of the flesh.
The teaching has nothing to do with the teaching of 1 Cor 15.
Mike,“will also give” is a future tense verb translated from an ancient Greek future indicative active.
There are no verbs in v10 of the Ancient Greek manuscripts but the translators chose to put present tense ones there.
The translators appear to believe that the body subject to death because of sin is the present body and the mortal body that is given life by the Spirit is the future body.
I know of no evidence otherwise.
I believe verse thirteen is the key part the conclusion of the teaching.
Romans 8
King James Version (KJV)13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
To All……….. know you not, your “BODY” (IS) the Temple of the LIVING GOD?
peace and love to you all………………………………………….gene
Mikeboll,
You said:Quote Quote The verses are clear, that Paul was contrasting the Bright shining SPLENDOUR of the body in the Celestial Heaven, with the dull 'Splendour' of the Earthly Body. I disagree. I believe Paul was contrasting the LITERAL bodies of planets and BEINGS in heaven to the LITERAL bodies of those of the earth. After all, he was answering the question, With what kind of BODIES will the dead be raised? His answer was that the dead will be raised in the kind of spiritual body those of heaven have.
Mikeboll, where is the word 'Being' in any of these verses? I read that you are a man who is a stickler for exactism yet you post things attempting to claim 'Proof' (or at least your version of a proof) which you can only do by adding words or ignoring vital parts of verses.
Also, alternating between fallacy and truth in your posts does not catch me out as, unlike what you say, I read everything that you post without prejudice to the content. After all, it is not me that needs to add or remove text to prove my point.
According to your 'proof' the bodies of those raised from the dead will be 'Sun, Moon and Stars' – that is quite funny!
Quote Toby, once again, we disagree – and I'm okay with it. I will most likely ignore any follow up posts you make. But don't take offense, it's just that I have little else to say about it to you. Mikeboll, we may disagree between ourselves – but you also disagree (knowingly) against Scriptures – and for what? For what reason would you discredit yourself over what is clear and obvious? Pride? Mikeboll, have you not heard or read that everyone who changes from his his ways of ignorance is welcomed into the heart of God – it is spoken of in many ways from the children of Israel, the Prodigal Son, Saul of Tarsus to the Samaritans and All people's who turn to Christ in truth.
Mikeboll, do you see that it is not 'Toby' that you disagree with for 'Toby' is only showing that which is written logically in Scriptures. Therefore it is Scriptures that you disagree with!
And I Agree with you that there is little more that you have to say. Translated, this means 'There is little more deception you can put on what is clear and obvious'.
In summary, Mikeboll, you said that the dead will rise with bodies like those of celestial Heaven which are Sun, Moon and Stars.
Quote from 'www.Sacred-Text.com':
“In the early history of all people we find the Sun and Moon regarded as human beings, more or less closely connected with the daily life of mankind, and influencing in some mysterious way man's existence, and controlling his destiny. We find the luminaries alluded to as ancestors, heroes, and benefactors, who, after a life of usefulness on this earth, were transported to the heavens, where they continue to look down on, and, in a measure, rule over earthly affairs.”
Also, didn't the Greeks and Romans consider that the luminaries were also 'Gods', and Heroes raised to 'god' status (or at least patterns of Stars)
So now not only have you added to the list of words, phrases, terms, and misrepresentations of Scriptures, but also to the number of Belief systems you belong to!
(p.s. No need to respond to this post – in fact, it may do you well not to! Why do you not just consider opting out of threads regarding this topic – believe me, Mikeboll, no one else will remember your faux pas in a few days time if you stop scratching your sore!)
Hi All,
Please take a little time to look over what has been claimed as proof
– that Spirits in Heaven have Bodies
– and that those Spirits have 'Wings'
– and that Jesus now has a body in Heaven
– and that body is like those of Heaven have (With 'Wings'?)
– and the dead in Christ will rise with those bodies (The Spiritual Body!?)(If this summary is incorrect, I welcome clarifications)
Can it be noted that those who claim that Jesus is a Spirit in a body have never shown how that can be with any reference to valid Scriptures without adding or removing words to or from those Scriptures or redefining commonly known words or terms in their own personal version of those words or terms.
Now, you should be asking why those words are added or removed or their definitions changed to that of the individual person posting the so-called 'proof'.
Consider that it has been said that Jesus was in a 'Spiritual(!) Body' in Heaven before coming as a Man (Please note that the Spiritual person cannot be Corrupted, nor Sin, nor Decay, nor Die).
Now consider that either Jesus ditched that 'Spiritual Body' (The author of that misrepresented idea claims that he did not) or else was in that same 'Spiritual Body' while also being in the Flesh and Blood body of his human form on Earth.
Consider that Scriptures says that Jesus died. Now how can someone in a 'Spiritual Body' die when Scriptures says that they cannot?
Now, consider that either Jesus went back to Heaven in as a Spirit in his 'Spiritual Body' and was therefore not dead but still alive (The Spiritual person in a Spiritual Body cannot die)
So the author of the theory is claiming that Scriptures is false because Jesus, in a Spiritual Body, cannot have been dead.
And lastly, consider what happened when Jesus was raised from the dead(?) again. Was he not seen in a Flesh and Bone body and the author of the false theory claims that this Flesh and Bone body was 'Transformed' to a 'Spiritual Body' when Jesus was taken up into the cloud. And this 'Spiritual Body' is the prototype for those to come.
But wait, wasn't Jesus already in a 'Spiritual Body' before he was taken up in the cloud, in fact, while he was in his Flesh and Bone body after being raised up – in fact, while he was dead in the grave (but alive in Heaven) – and, in fact, before he came as man?(according to the author of the fallacy!)
So, the body of those in Heaven are what? A Spirit in a Spiritual Body in another Spiritual Body?
Oh, wait, where are the 'Wings'?
Also, Jesus was also described as a Lamb (as if Slaughtered) while in Heaven. So, since the author of the fallacy claims that the Apostles will have a body like Jesus has in heaven 'Now' then the Apostles must also be destined to have a body of a Lamb (as if slaughtered) (According to the theory of the author of the fallacy!)
Perhaps someone can comment on what I just summarised or provide their own summary.
Thank you.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 26 2012,23:12) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 26 2012,10:01) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 25 2012,16:03) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2012,03:01) Hi KW, Sin within attacks the body and the mind.
We are freed from the sin dwelling within the body at death and hopefully have overcome sin ruling the natural mind.
Nick,What you write sounds correct.
Jas 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
Jas 1:14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
Jas 1:16 Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers.
Pierre,The words you have chosen are wise but what insight are you sharing.
Kerwinsin is all around us day and night ,but so are the choices and it is here that the knowledge of Gods will and the value in our eyes for them are made to be challenged and so what is in our hearts will now show were it is going ,it will show were our love is,
this is were the double edge sword comes to cut ,
hi Toby,
John the baptist called Jesus, when he saw him, the Lamb of God.
You need salve for the eyes?Toby and Kerwin,
Paul was answering the question, With what kind of bodies will the dead be raised?, right?
His answer was to distinguish the flesh and blood body of the man of dust – and those of the earth, from the spiritual body of the man from heaven – and those of heaven.
He went as far as to say that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. He points out in 2 Cor 5 that God will not leave us naked, but will exchange our earthly tents for heavenly, spiritual ones.
And in Phil 3, he longs for his lowly, earthly body to be transformed into a glorious new body like the one Jesus now has.
I'm going to be very blunt here. People like you two have a problem. The problem is that you read the scriptures with the “correct answers” already solidly placed in your mind, and then fight like hell to FORCE the scriptures to teach anything that will support the “correct answers” you've already concluded in your own mind.
Kerwin is an EXPERT at this technique. Toby, not so much yet. But when it comes to this “body” thing, Toby is not too far behind Kerwin.
Toby, listen carefully: It is ONLY because you've already made up your own mind that spirit beings don't have bodies – after watching the Twilight Zone, or the Discovery Channel, or whatever – that you have blinded yourself to a very simple scriptural teaching. Consider that if things were the way you say, and those of heaven don't have bodies at all, why wouldn't Paul have just said that? Why would he go through that lengthy explanation about spiritual bodies when he could have just said, “Without any kind of body at all” ?
Why would God raise the dead with a “spiritual flesh and bone body” just to immediately strip them of that body upon their ascension to heaven?
Instead Toby, the answer to the question put to Paul was, “With spiritual bodies LIKE THOSE OF HEAVEN HAVE.” But you are blinded to that very simple answer because you already “knew” the truth in your own mind before even reading the passage, didn't you? And now you must FORCE the scriptures to somehow teach that truth you “knew” before you even read them.
Heck, I'll even give you a chance to prove me wrong here. Tell me ONE scripture that even suggests that angels don't have bodies in heaven. (Please actually post the scripture, along with a BRIEF comment as to why you understand it to be saying spirit beings don't have any kind of body at all.)
And Kerwin, while I'm waiting for Toby to post the scripture about angels being like the wind, I'd like to point out to you that the body is not what makes a spiritual man “spiritual” instead of sin-driven. It is what exists in the heart of that man that will prove to show either spiritual fruit or sinful fruit. The thought that the dead will be raised with the same exact kind of body we have now – except that this BODY will somehow cause the man inside it to be spirit guided instead of flesh guided is ludicrous, IMO.
A body is an outer casing of a being. But it is the inner man, or inner being that decides whether to produce spiritual fruit or sinful fruit. The body has nothing at all to do with those kinds of decisions. Instead, it is the spirit, heart, and soul of the person dwelling within that body who decides to follow God or Satan.
Also, you didn't answer if you think Jesus died in an UNSPIRITUAL body before he was raised in his “spiritual flesh and bone body”.
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