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Mikeboll,
You said:Quote toby: Quote Hi Mikeboll,
You said to Kerwin:Quote (mikeboll @ 64)
God can change Jesus from a spirit being which can not die into a flesh being which can, but the body surrounding him is more precious than him, and therefore can't be allowed to die like the beloved Son that was in that body?
This is hilarious.
So Mikeboll, you are saying the (non-existent) Spiritual Body of a Spirit is more precious to God than the Spirit within it?
Quote Apparently I didn't word my comment very well, for Nick was also confused by my wording. …nothing can be added to that revelation!
Quote I was actually poking fun at YOU and KERWIN… Best try to avoid doing that in the future then!
Quote …for thinking that the spiritual BODY of Jesus couldn't die because God made it perfect,… Mikeboll, is the 'Spiritual Body' not an IMMORTAL BODY and 'Immortal' means 'Cannot die'?
Did you just change your wording from 'Destroyed' to 'Die'?
Mikeboll, what exactly are you saying from one post to another?Quote …but that the spiritual BEING of Jesus could. Mikeboll, what exactly do you mean by 'Spiritual Being of Jesus'?
What are these things you are making up?
A living human being is considered to 'Die' when the Spirit (Breathe of life) is not existent in the flesh body.
Now since you say that 'Spiritual' means 'Belonging to a Spirit' what you just said means 'The Being belonging to Spirit of Jesus can die'.
Now I don't even pretend to understand what you mean by what you just said. I think you are just tying yourself up in a knot.
If I can 'imagine' what you are saying then it would be that the Spirit that is Jesus could die – despite Scriptures saying that a Spirit can only be destroyed (not die!).Mikeboll, how much more can you tangle your argument?
Quote That makes no sense. Oh, your own comments – you said it!!
Quote If God decides to destroy an angel who was created in an imperishable body, and designed to never die, why would you think God could destroy this perfect BEING, but not destroy his perfect BODY? Odd stuff. This is so mixed … One moment you say 'Destroy' and the next you say 'Die'… Stick to one word, Mikeboll, otherwise people will think you are not able to construct credible arguments.
God will Destroy Fallen Angels. Fallen Angels do not Die. Fallen Angels are corrupted Heavenly Spirits.
If, as you put it, Jesus had a 'Spiritual Body' in Heaven before coming as Man then at no time was it or could it be made corrupt as then Scriptures would be false in saying that the Spiritual Bodies of those raised from the dead will 'No more Die'. And remember that the Angels are also Spirits so you say they also have 'Spiritual Bodies' therefore those that became 'Fallen Angels' could not have become corrupt because the 'Spiritual Body' cannot be corrupted. And if you say God 'Destroyed' the perfect uncorrupted 'so called Spiritual Body of Jesus' then God is destroyed a perfect creation.
Mikeboll, are you sure you want to continue with your line of unreasoning that is only getting worse for you?
Hi Mikeboll.
You said:Quote Toby: Quote
So you are saying that Jesus was raised up from the dead in a 'Spirit Body'?
But Mikeboll, Jesus showed that 'Spirit Body' to his disciples and said 'Touch me (my 'Spirit Body' as you would say). See that I am not a Spirit (Being)'.Not at all. It is clear from Luke 24 that Jesus was raised from the dead in a flesh and bone body. It is clear that he wasn't yet a spirit, because he said as much to his disciples.
Quote Mikeboll, I think you will need to say what you mean by 'In the sense you imply' as it is unclear exactly what you are saying here. Quote Toby, what do YOU think is meant by Paul's use of the words “spiritual body”? Don't you argue that it is similar to “putting on the spiritual man”? Don't you assert that the dead will be raised in a flesh body, but they will be spiritually driven instead of guided by sinful flesh? Mikeboll, why do you try your tricks with me? You have mixed two separate sayings here!
'putting on the Spiritual Man' is for those who are living before Resurrection. It is a way of saying 'Live for God, not for Man', 'Live for for Spiritualness not the Carnality', Full Health, 'Clothes, Money, Wealth, Rich food, big cars, big houses, bling, praise of man, best seat in the church or around the 'Society table' do not matter.
When the Body is raised in its Spiritual state all these things will not be of any value as the Spiritual Body will be sustained by the Holy Spirit and cannot decay nor become corrupted as the unrepressive power of Holy Spirit will not allow it to become so – the body will have Power to do things a Natural Body cannot do as was demonstrated by Jesus.
The body raised from the dead will be 'Spirit Led' unlike the natural or carnal body that desires gratification from base desires.
Quote This is how I understand what you've said before. But set the record straight right here and now:
What do YOU think Paul means by the dead will be raised in a spiritual body?Mikeboll, is there some secret to this? It is exactly as Apostle Paul wrote:
'The Body that is buried in a corrupt, inglorious and weakened state of Sin, is the same Body that is raised up INCORRUPTED, Glorious and with Power' – the Spiritual Body.
Do you read it differently?Quote Also, to whom do you suppose Paul refers with the words, so also are those of heaven? Mikeboll, I have no idea because my Bible says 'As is the Heavenly, So are those who are Heavenly' which only reflects everything Apostle Paul said before.
Paul is referring to those who will become like Jesus. 'Those who are Heavenly will be like Jesus' which is exactly what you yourself say.
Where is the mystery?You have fairies in your eyes as there is not one single reference to Angels or Beings in Heaven in the whole of 1 Corinth 15 other than that of the spiritual order of rulers being put to an end.
The whole chapter is about how the resurrected Man will become Spiritual in his Flesh and that Death will be put to death!
Quote (toby @ April 06 2012,15:50) Paul is referring to those who will become like Jesus. 'Those who are Heavenly will be like Jesus' which is exactly what you yourself say. Where is the mystery?
Well, according to your understanding, there are a few mysteries:1. Phil 3:21 says Paul is anxious to have his lowly body transformed into a glorious body like Jesus [now] has. And, if angels “manifest” bodies when they come to earth, then your claim that Jesus has an earthly body stashed somewhere, ready to put on when he comes to earth makes it seem like he doesn't have the power to manifest a new body each time he comes – when his subordinate angels DO have that power.
In other words, it makes no sense (at least to me) that Jesus is a bodiless being right now, but has a body on standby that he can “put on” when he comes to earth. Nor does it make any sense (again, to me) that Paul would be anxious to have his body become like the glorious new body Jesus doesn't even currently use in heaven.
2. Even using your favorite translation, 1 Cor 15:48 says that as is the heavenly man, so also are the heavenly. Since there is no record of anyone besides Jesus being resurrected into an imperishable body at this time, WHO are “the heavenly” that Paul says are “also as” the heavenly man, Jesus?
In my mind, he MUST be referring to beings already existing in heaven, ie: angels.
3. Verse 49 says that we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, we will bear the likeness of the heavenly man. To me, this implies a DIFFERENT likeness than the one we bear right now. Paul contrasts the NATURAL likeness we now bear to the SPIRITUAL likeness we will bear.
This is from Barnes:
We shall also bear the image of the heavenly – The Lord Jesus Christ, who was from heaven, and who is in heaven. As we are so closely connected with Adam as to resemble him. so by the divine arrangement, and by faith in the Lord Jesus, we are so closely connected with him that we shall resemble him in heaven. And as he is now free from frailty, sickness. pain, sorrow, and death, and as he has a pure and spiritual body, adapted to a residence in heaven, so shall we be in that future world.This is from Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary:
The dead in Christ shall not only rise, but shall rise thus gloriously changed. The bodies of the saints, when they rise again, will be changed. They will be then glorious and spiritual bodies, fitted to the heavenly world and state, where they are ever afterwards to dwell.Toby, I understand that you don't see things this way. But this is what I've been saying for over two years, despite the fact I just read these commentaries from Barnes and Henry for the first time today.
If you want to insist upon spirit beings in heaven being bodiless (without one shred of scriptural support), then that is your perogative. But it should be clear by now that I'm not standing alone with my understanding. It should be clear that I'm not making things up just to “disagree with” or “taunt” you. I'm not being deceptive, or lying. The simple truth is that I TRULY understand 1 Cor 15 the same way Barnes and Henry do.
This is not a personal attack against you, and should therefore not garner a personal attack against me. We simply understand 1 Cor 15, 2 Cor 5, and Phil 3 differently. I doubt that I'm ever going to change your mind, and I know you won't change mine.
Let's agree to disagree on this subject, and just let it go.
Quote (kerwin @ April 06 2012,01:49) That is three witnesses. You either believe them or you do not. That is your choice; choose wisely.
Unfortunately, not one of your “witnesses” call for adding the word “UNCHANGED” into Hebrews 5:7.In fact, if you leave the scripture as is (as we all should do), it will teach you that Jesus is no longer in the flesh. Then 1 Cor 15, 2 Cor 5, and Phil 3 will begin to make sense to you.
Mike
good posts ,it is hard for those that can not God to God with a pure heart,and so never see the truth of scriptures
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 07 2012,07:40) Quote (kerwin @ April 06 2012,01:49) That is three witnesses. You either believe them or you do not. That is your choice; choose wisely.
Unfortunately, not one of your “witnesses” call for adding the word “UNCHANGED” into Hebrews 5:7.In fact, if you leave the scripture as is (as we all should do), it will teach you that Jesus is no longer in the flesh. Then 1 Cor 15, 2 Cor 5, and Phil 3 will begin to make sense to you.
Mike,You believe that because you fail to understand the language being used.
Quote This is carnal (“of the flesh”) and proceeds out of the untouched (unchanged) part of us – i.e. what is not transformed by God. Quote merely of human origin or empowerment. The mortal body is merely of human origin;untouched by God. The immortal body is empowered by the Spirit of God; it has been freed from the power of corruption by God.
Here is the source of my quotes.
Quote (kerwin @ April 06 2012,20:05) Mike, You believe that because you fail to understand the language being used.
Kerwin,I understand what the phrase “in the flesh” means. Jesus made supplications while he was still in the flesh. That means that he is NOT in the flesh anymore.
In fact, here is what Barnes says about Heb 5:7………
In the days of his flesh – When he appeared on earth as a man. Flesh is used to denote human nature, and especially human nature as susceptible of suffering. The Son of God still is united to human nature, but it is human nature glorified, for in his case, as in all others, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God,” 1 Corinthians 15:50. He has now a glorified body Philippians 3:21, such as the redeemed will have in the future world; compare Revelation 1:13-17. The phrase “days of his flesh,” means the “time” when he was incarnate, or when he lived on earth in human form. The particular time here referred to, evidently, was the agony in the garden of Gethsemane.This is also how I understand the verse – and Barnes and I don't have to ADD our own words into the scriptures to come to our understanding. We can leave the scripture untouched.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 07 2012,19:57) Hi T,
Tell us of your PURE HEART.
Ni have explain it already ,what is PURE ?? AND WHAT IS A HEART ??
SO YOU KNOW ,but all toward God
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 07 2012,08:13) Quote (kerwin @ April 06 2012,20:05) Mike, You believe that because you fail to understand the language being used.
Kerwin,I understand what the phrase “in the flesh” means. Jesus made supplications while he was still in the flesh. That means that he is NOT in the flesh anymore.
In fact, here is what Barnes says about Heb 5:7………
In the days of his flesh – When he appeared on earth as a man. Flesh is used to denote human nature, and especially human nature as susceptible of suffering. The Son of God still is united to human nature, but it is human nature glorified, for in his case, as in all others, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God,” 1 Corinthians 15:50. He has now a glorified body Philippians 3:21, such as the redeemed will have in the future world; compare Revelation 1:13-17. The phrase “days of his flesh,” means the “time” when he was incarnate, or when he lived on earth in human form. The particular time here referred to, evidently, was the agony in the garden of Gethsemane.This is also how I understand the verse – and Barnes and I don't have to ADD our own words into the scriptures to come to our understanding. We can leave the scripture untouched.
Mike,Quote I understand what the phrase “in the flesh” means. You seem not to know as it depends on the context. For example it is written:
Romans 8:8
King James Version (KJV)8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Are you claiming this means a person with a flesh and blood body cannot please God? That would explain why you believe a flesh and blood body cannot enter the reign of God.
What about this passage:
1 John 2:16
King James Version (KJV)16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Is the world and the flesh thereof the source of evil?
What about the world to come; and the flesh thereof?
Was the flesh and blood of Adam and Eve subject to corruption before they sinned?
Were their flesh and bone bodies immortal until changed by sin?
Was Jesus’ flesh and bone body subject to death after his resurrection?
Hi KW,
I am sure you were not being deliberately deceptive but the meaning of Rom 8.8 is found in the CONTEXT of the chapter. It does not mean what you say does it?.ROM 8 kvj
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Kerwin,
Are you trying to assert that “in the flesh” NEVER means “human nature”? If so, then give it up.
If not, then all you are doing is trying to create a diversion – something that you are the master at.
We are talking about Heb 5:7 right now. And if Jesus made supplications WHEN he was IN THE FLESH, then it is implied that he is NO LONGER in the flesh.
But that easy understanding of the actual words the writer used is of no use to you, because you have your own doctrine that you must make scriptures conform to. So, as is OFTEN the case with you, you must add your own words into the scriptures.
I don't have that hang up, because I am content with what the scriptures actually say – without adding to or changing them.
Hi Mike,
You said:
Quote 1. Phil 3:21 says Paul is anxious to have his lowly body transformed into a glorious body like Jesus [now] has.
Paul is indeed 'anxious' for the transformation. But to what body?
What does Scriptures (not your wild imaginings) say is the Glorious Body?
Is not the Glorious Body that same 'Heavenly Body'? Is not the same word 'Glorious' also used for 'Heavenly'?This is mere semantics that you manipulate for your own end. Seeing that Paul already states that the body raised from the dead is made Glorious then those same words along with 'Powerful', 'Incorruptible' and 'Spiritual' together also says in one word: 'Heavenly' otherwise what was the point of using the adjective 'Heavenly'?
Also your argument that Paul alludes to 'Beings in Heaven' is false. At no point does Paul make any reference to Angels or Spirits in the whole of 1 Corinthians 15 (apart from the reference to the order of powers and authorities being our to death).
In addition – tie in your false ideology with the other post you didn't answer (and for good reason you didn't):
If Jesus was in a Spiritual Body before coming as Man and all Spirits in Heaven are already in Spiritual Bodies and Spiritual Bodies cannot decay, die or become corrupted as Paul states then:
1) How did the Demon Angels become so? How did the Incorruptible become Corrupted? Scriptures is false then?2) Seeing that Demon Angels are not Embodied Spirits, what happened to their incorruptible Spiritual Bodies when they became fallen Angels? Scriptures no where says that the bodies were destroyed nor died?
3) you at one time claimed that God 'Destroyed' the perfect Spiritual Body of Jesus when Jesus became man – why would God destroy perfection? (Please note that it is the CORRUPT Angels that are destroyed)
4) Seeing that God does not destroy Perfection, Jesus then must have been in his Spiritual Body when he came as Man. How could Jesus then die? The flesh body died but then the Spirit, as you try not to say, is in a Spiritual Body and so the Soul is still alive – so You say that Jrsus did not really die on the Cross – making Scriptures to be false!
5) Scriptures clearly states that the RAISED BODY is the SPIRITUAL BODY. You agree that Jesus was raised in his Spiritual Body (as Scriptures says), You agree that that body was Flesh and Bone (as Scriptures says) but then you claim that it was not – how so?
6) You search netBible (netNotes) and only draw of support from those who (wrongly or otherwise) agree with you. How so? If they are wrong in one place (such that you disagree with them) then how do you know to 'agree' with what else they say? Presenting proof external to the Scriptures is No Proof at all as it is simply someone else's opinion and as you can see, there are some you agree with and others who speak against you – stalemate! So as many 'external proofs' you present, I can present similar against you (and no 'Enpasse' allowed)
7) Angels coming into the Physical world are shown to be in temporary bodies which are in the Form of a Man. But you skilfully (to the unwary) ignore where Scriptures shows Angels other than in the form of a man like the one in the bush that was in the form of flames of fire or the one that was a Pillar of thunderous clouds in the wilderness. Any reason for this?
8) I also notice you boast about Scriptures describing bodies of Angels in Heaven but when asked for such you cry off after presenting descriptions on Earth of materialistic Symbolic representations in the Tabernacle, and 'parts' mentioned in metaphorical terms. Any reason you cannot present your 'boastful Heavenly Proof'?
9) If Jesus has a body in Heaven and those raised from the dead are to have similar bodies and those in Heaven already have such bodies as Jesus has then how do they look: according to you then, they look simultaneously like a slaughtered Lamb, a man with white hair like wool, fire coming out of his eyes and brass legs AND as a giant Angel Spirit. Mikeboll, which one of these bodies DO ANGELS HAVE that those raised from the dead will also have (Mike, here is a tip: You have to say 'All three' otherwise I am only going to ask you how you know which one! And if you say anything other than 'All three' then I will only laugh very loudly!)
Quote And, if angels “manifest” bodies when they come to earth
The manifested body is not a real body – it is temporary and illusionary which is why Jesus said that a Spirit does not have 'Flesh and Bone'. Angels are described in non-descript terms only as 'looking like a man' (as one form to another) and in a 'white shimmering gown' (White symbolising purity and Holiness)Quote then your claim that Jesus has an earthly body stashed somewhere, ready to put on when he comes to earth makes it seem like he doesn't have the power to manifest a new body each time he comes – when his subordinate angels DO have that power.
Mikeboll, this is so ridiculously written as to be almost worthless.
Jesus is currently the ONLY Spirit with a PERMANENT fully flesh and Bone body that is describable down to the holes in it which are a permanent record of his triumph over sin and death.You ignore the fact that this body is the Spiritual Body – the Spirit can leave the Spiritual body and that body will not decay therefore the SOUL is permanently alive – how is it said that one 'was in the Spirit in Heaven' – was the human person's body destroyed while he was 'in the Spirit in heaven'? No, of course not (it was in that closet you mentioned waiting for the Spirit to come back into it – so you weren't far off the truth even as you tried to make it a joke!)
How can that be less than an impermanent, non-descript one? The Angels were always anxious to get back to the freedom of their unemcumbered Spirit realm and out of their constricting of the embodied physical realm.
And since the holy Angels are in completely subordinate roles to ALL mankind after the end of the resurrections, mankind both in Heaven and on Earth will be superior in everyway to them.
Mikeboll, where do you get your ideas from? Please tell me so I can know never to go there!!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 07 2012,10:55) Kerwin, Are you trying to assert that “in the flesh” NEVER means “human nature”? If so, then give it up.
If not, then all you are doing is trying to create a diversion – something that you are the master at.
We are talking about Heb 5:7 right now. And if Jesus made supplications WHEN he was IN THE FLESH, then it is implied that he is NO LONGER in the flesh.
But that easy understanding of the actual words the writer used is of no use to you, because you have your own doctrine that you must make scriptures conform to. So, as is OFTEN the case with you, you must add your own words into the scriptures.
I don't have that hang up, because I am content with what the scriptures actually say – without adding to or changing them.
Mike,You just stated you were not content with what Scripture explicitly states when you inferred “flesh” means human nature in Romans 8 and other places.
You did not reveal that you understood that the flesh and blood of Adam and Eve before The Fall was not the same as their flesh and blood after their fall.
Do you believe the world of this age will be the same as world to come?
In Hebrews 5:7 flesh means mortality as the context reveals.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 07 2012,10:52) Hi KW,
I am sure you were not being deliberately deceptive but the meaning of Rom 8.8 is found in the CONTEXT of the chapter. It does not mean what you say does it?.ROM 8 kvj
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Nick,I chose to take Mike's argument on Hebrews 5:7 to its absurd conclusion by applying it to Romans 8:8. The same rule he uses when applied to world in some Scriptures also reaches absurd conclusions. I am hoping to awaken him to his misunderstanding of the language of Scripture.
In Hebrews 5:7 we are taught what Jesus did in the time of his mortal body; mortality.
Hi KW,
Jesus Christ was no more mortal before his death than after.From the time of his anointing with the Spirit of life at the Jordan he was alive in the Spirit.
It is just that he was [his soul was] still in the flesh.We too need to walk in the Spirit after our rebirth by the Spirit.
The Sons of God are led by the Spirit of God
We want to become sons of God.To All………..It was that same BODY Jesus was raised up with that ascended into the clouds, and it will be that same “BODY” that he will descend with, and it will be our resurected “BODIES” that will ascend into the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, all Physical BODIES with Spirits in them and we will all be “LIVING SOULS”, Just as we were before we died or are changed into Spiritually (renewed) “BODIES” that are Spiritual maintained, at his return. These are PHYSICAL BODIES, that are SPIRITUALLY MAINTAINED and can LIVE FOREVER.
Nothing complicated about it no one will be a “LIVING SOUL” after death without a PHYSICAL BODY RESURRECTION . If God want to destory us, he simply would leaves us in the GRAVE and Never resurrect us and we will remain in a Perished or DEAD STATE Forever. It is absolutely CRUCIAL we OBTAIN UNTO THE “RESURRECTION that will WITTINESS the REDEMPTION OF OUR BODIES”, or we simple will not exist any longer.
My advice to all is not to buy into all the MYSTERY RELIGIOUS Confusion being touted about here. If RESURRECTIONS of PHYSICAL BODIES were not NEEDED then there would be NONE, and the whole thing would be a deception a Sham at best, RIGHT? IMO
peace and love to you all…………………………………..gene
Quote (toby @ April 07 2012,00:59) What does Scriptures (not your wild imaginings) say is the Glorious Body?
Is not the Glorious Body that same 'Heavenly Body'?
The glorious body is the body Jesus now has in heaven. It is a spiritual body like those of heaven also have. Who are those of heaven who are “also as” the man from heaven, Toby? (1 Cor 15:48) Whose likeness shall we someday bear? (1 Cor 15:49)Quote (toby @ April 07 2012,00:59) Seeing that Paul already states that the body raised from the dead is made Glorious then those same words along with 'Powerful', 'Incorruptible' and 'Spiritual' together also says in one word: 'Heavenly' otherwise what was the point of using the adjective 'Heavenly'?
And who else was “heavenly” at the time Paul wrote 1 Cor 15? Who else had their imperishable, new, glorious bodies? For Paul says “as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven”. Who are those Paul was referring to that were already like the man from heaven?Quote (toby @ April 07 2012,00:59) If Jesus was in a Spiritual Body before coming as Man and all Spirits in Heaven are already in Spiritual Bodies and Spiritual Bodies cannot decay, die or become corrupted as Paul states then:
1) How did the Demon Angels become so? How did the Incorruptible become Corrupted? Scriptures is false then?
Who ever said the demon's bodies were corrupted?
Quote (toby @ April 07 2012,00:59) 2) Seeing that Demon Angels are not Embodied Spirits………..
Says who? And with what scriptural proof?Quote (toby @ April 07 2012,00:59) 3) you at one time claimed that God 'Destroyed' the perfect Spiritual Body of Jesus when Jesus became man…….
I have never made that claim.Quote (toby @ April 07 2012,00:59) 4) Seeing that God does not destroy Perfection, Jesus then must have been in his Spiritual Body when he came as Man. How could Jesus then die? The flesh body died……..
The spirit being Jesus emptied himself of all things associated with existing in the form of God. The spirit being Jesus was made flesh. And even the flesh body of Jesus never saw decay.Quote (toby @ April 07 2012,00:59) 5) Scriptures clearly states that the RAISED BODY is the SPIRITUAL BODY. You agree that Jesus was raised in his Spiritual Body……..
No, I don't agree with that. Paul speaks of the rest of the raised dead. Jesus was a special case in that he had to be raised first in the body in which he died to physically show that the dead do indeed rise. This body was later transformed into the glorious, spiritual body he now has in heaven.Quote (toby @ April 07 2012,00:59) You agree that that body was Flesh and Bone (as Scriptures says)
Yes – the same one he died in.Quote (toby @ April 07 2012,00:59) there are some you agree with and others who speak against you – stalemate!
Agreed. So just let it go, Toby. You understand it one way and I understand it another way.Quote (toby @ April 07 2012,00:59) 7) Angels coming into the Physical world are shown to be in temporary bodies ………
What scripture speaks of an angel's “temporary body”?Quote (toby @ April 07 2012,00:59) But you skilfully (to the unwary) ignore where Scriptures shows Angels other than in the form of a man like the one in the bush that was in the form of flames of fire or the one that was a Pillar of thunderous clouds in the wilderness. Any reason for this?
I have no idea what point you're trying to make. Can you make some point in your favor using the story of the burning bush? If so, make it.Quote (toby @ April 07 2012,00:59) 8) I also notice you boast about Scriptures describing bodies of Angels in Heaven but when asked for such you cry off after presenting descriptions on Earth of materialistic Symbolic representations in the Tabernacle, and 'parts' mentioned in metaphorical terms. Any reason you cannot present your 'boastful Heavenly Proof'?
I have presented descriptions of angels in heaven. You asked; I told you to look it up yourself; then you cried; and so I posted some of them for you. They are a few pages back on this thread.Quote (toby @ April 07 2012,00:59) 9) If Jesus has a body in Heaven and those raised from the dead are to have similar bodies and those in Heaven already have such bodies as Jesus has then how do they look:
I don't know. Is the fact that I don't know what every angel looks like “proof” for you that they don't have bodies? I have shown you from scripture what certain angels look like.Quote (toby @ April 07 2012,00:59) The manifested body is not a real body – it is temporary a
nd illusionary…….
Says what scripture?Quote (toby @ April 07 2012,00:59) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) then your claim that Jesus has an earthly body stashed somewhere, ready to put on when he comes to earth makes it seem like he doesn't have the power to manifest a new body each time he comes – when his subordinate angels DO have that power.
Mikeboll, this is so ridiculously written as to be almost worthless.
I agree. In fact I told you the same thing when you first made this claim two years ago.Quote (toby @ April 07 2012,00:59) Jesus is currently the ONLY Spirit with a PERMANENT fully flesh and Bone body that is describable down to the holes in it which are a permanent record of his triumph over sin and death. You ignore the fact that this body is the Spiritual Body – the Spirit can leave the Spiritual body and that body will not decay therefore the SOUL is permanently alive……..
You point out how ridiculous this theory is, and then turn right around and claim it all over again. You ARE saying that Jesus DOES have an imperishable spiritual body somewhere that he just doesn't use in heaven, right?Quote (toby @ April 07 2012,00:59) No, of course not (it was in that closet you mentioned waiting for the Spirit to come back into it – so you weren't far off the truth even as you tried to make it a joke!)
So now you've called my “joke analogy” ridiculous, and then attempted to make that exact claim with a straight face.Quote (toby @ April 07 2012,00:59) Mikeboll, where do you get your ideas from? Please tell me so I can know never to go there!!
From the scriptures – a place it seems you HAVEN'T ever gone.Toby, let me point out some things you've said………….
(not your wild imaginings)
This is mere semantics that you manipulate for your own end.
In addition – tie in your false ideology with the other post you didn't answer (and for good reason you didn't)
3) you at one time claimed that God 'Destroyed' the perfect Spiritual Body of Jesus when Jesus became man (FALSE)
so You say that Jrsus did not really die on the Cross – making Scriptures to be false! (FALSE)
You agree that Jesus was raised in his Spiritual Body (FALSE)
But you skilfully (to the unwary) ignore where Scriptures shows Angels other than in the form of a man (FALSE)
I also notice you boast about Scriptures describing bodies of Angels in Heaven but when asked for such you cry off …………. Any reason you cannot present your 'boastful Heavenly Proof'? (FALSE – I HAVE PRODUCED THE SCRIPTURES THAT YOU SAY I “CRIED OFF”)
(Mike, here is a tip: You have to say 'All three' otherwise I am only going to ask you how you know which one! And if you say anything other than 'All three' then I will only laugh very loudly!)
Do you notice the attitude here, Toby? It is like you want to have a verbal fistfight or something. Almost all of your posts to me include accusations or hints of me being “deceptive”, “dishonest”, “hiding”, “running away from questions I can't answer”, “being boastful”, etc. And almost all of your posts to me include claims of statements I've made that I never have made.
Yet I have done this whole discussion in the light. You have seen the posts from about 30 others on this site who see it like I do. I have showed you commentators (experts in scripture) who see it like I do. Are we ALL being deceptive? Is everbody “out to get you by deceptive means”? Toby, I never minded the questions, because your questions are all easily answered – like I've just showed you in this post. What bothers me is the CONSTANT insinuations that I'm “hiding” something, or purposely being “deceptive”.
Why are you so paranoid? Do you do a lot of drugs or something?
The bottom line is that I have HONESTLY shown you my understanding, and the SCRIPTURES that support it. I have HONESTLY shown you many others who see it just like I do. If you disagree, then disagree. But it is truly a sight to see when someone who doesn't have scripture one to support his theory makes personal attacks against someone who not only has MANY scriptures to support his view, but also MANY others who understand those scriptures the same way.
Grow up and move on.
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