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Hi Shimmer,
You say
“
Would you say that the Holy Spirit was eternal[YES], and Jesus was a man with his own spirit [YES](like us all) and the Holy Spirit was also in him[YES FROM THE JORDAN], and that when Jesus died, his own spirit went to God who gave it [YES](as happens to all when they die) and then the Holy Spirit which was in Jesus' body on Earth raised him from the dead [YES], then his body was eventually taken up to heaven [YES-MADE NEW]and was presented before God[YES DAN 7.13], and God gave him back his (Jesus')own spirit [NO], and the Holy Spiirit was sent to Earth [YES to HIS BODY -AND NO-HE STILL LIVES BY THE HOLY SPIRIT-HE IS THE HEAD OF THE BODY]to be with man, while Jesus remains in heaven[YES]? (Romans 8:11)Ok thanks Nick, just asking:) I wrote something the other night and was wondering where it fitted in but I won't post it here at the moment.
God bless.
Hi Mikeboll,
You said to Kerwin:Quote God can change Jesus from a spirit being which can not die into a flesh being which can, but the body surrounding him is more precious than him, and therefore can't be allowed to die like the beloved Son that was in that body? This is hilarious.
So Mikeboll, you are saying the (non-existent) Spiritual Body of a Spirit is more precious to God than the Spirit within it?
Truly Hilarious!
But even so, what did 'God' do with the 'precious Immortal Spiritual Body' when (The Spirit of Jesus) was put into the Mortal Flesh Body?
Oh, by the way, all those verses you quoted about 'Angels with body (parts)', they were all pointless as they were NOT IN HEAVEN.
Do you want to try again – and this time please stick to the rules!
(Just to put you back in track):
1) Prove that Spirits (Such as Angels, Jesus and God), in HEAVEN, have Bodies2) Symbolism does not count as proof (Else you will need to account for Jesus being a 'Lamb as if Slaughtered', a man with a sword as a tongue, and also a giant Angel who can bestride a river – which one of these bodies of Jesus will those raised from the dead be in?)
3) The definition of 'Spirit' agreed by Millions of people and Every authority is that it is 'Incorporeal, Bodiless, Immaterial, without Form or Shape, as opposed to body' – I think that beats the 30 in HeavenNet (30? Are there 30 posters in HeavenNet?)
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 04 2012,21:27) Hi MB,
You say
“God can change Jesus from a spirit being which can not die into a flesh being which can, but the body surrounding him is more precious than him, and therefore can't be allowed to die like the beloved Son that was in that body”What is this stuff from?
Not the bible
Nick,First read the post to which I responded. Next, do not quote me out of context, without the question mark and the “confused” smilie. You made it seem like I made a statement SUPPORTING that nonsense.
But in reality, I am in disbelief that these guys say Jesus couldn't have had a spiritual body before being made into a man because that perfect body could not be destroyed. I'm pointing out to them that it is asinine to assume the perfect body couldn't be destroyed when the perfect Son of God could.
Hi Mikeboll,
You said:Quote As I've showed you many times, one of the definitions of “spiritual” is “belonging to a spirit”. Mikeboll, you know that the way you read it is nonsense. How can a Spirit have a body when it is defined as not having a body?
What is the opposite of 'Spiritual'? Does Scripture not say 'Natural'?
So, by your definition, 'Natural' means 'Belonging to a Nature'?Quote A spiritual body is a spirit body Where is that written? Did you just make that up?
So you are saying that Jesus was raised up from the dead in a 'Spirit Body'?
But Mikeboll, Jesus showed that 'Spirit Body' to his disciples and said 'Touch me (my 'Spirit Body' as you would say). See that I am not a Spirit (Being)'.Quote , as a flesh body itself can neither be “spiritual” or “non-spiritual” in the sense you imply. Mikeboll, I think you will need to say what you mean by 'In the sense you imply' as it is unclear exactly what you are saying here.
Quote A MAN can be spiritual, but not his flesh and blood body. Mikeboll, is not the Spirit in a man, 'Spiritual'? Is the Spirit in a man corruptible? Then what is it that is corruptible? What does Scriptures say will become incorruptible and never decay?
Quote A flesh and blood body can be “clean”, “holy”, “unblemished”, etc…………… Exactly, Spiritual, yes – 'like that of the Spirit'!
Quote but it cannot be “spiritual”. Doh! You say something true then immediately backtrack over it…!
Quote The aspect of spirituality comes from within a man, and has nothing to do with the sinful flesh body that encompasses him. Mikeboll, from whence does sin come if not from the carnal flesh desire of the body? Those desires are not of the Spirit because the Spirit does not require them. The Spirit in man with an alcoholic addiction is not changed by the craving of the flesh for alcohol. The Spirit is not what desires unnatural sex. It is not the Spirit of a man that yearns for wealth but his corrupt carnal nature. What is physical wealth to a Spirit?
Quote But if you can show me from scriptures that a flesh body can be spiritual, while I won't change my understanding of what Paul meant in 1 Cor 15, I will become enlightened. Mikeboll, I don't need to show you – you have both read and quoted them many times over yourself. You know exactly which ones they are!
Your point about being enlightened but still unbelieving – does that sound odd to you?
Even when someone 'Proves' something to you, you will only find the 'proof' amusingly interesting and still continue doing and believing the oppisite!Quote (kerwin @ April 04 2012,21:41) You know what the experts at Strong's say. You know what Paul teaches. You know they are in agreement. So why don't you believe them.
James Strong teaches that Paul taught about a Trinity Godhead. According to Strong himself, he and Paul are in agreement. So why don't you believe them, Kerwin?Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 04 2012,21:43) Hi MB, Yes Jesus no longer has the perishable natural body but a new imperishable one
Yes Nick,And as is Jesus since 33 A.D., so also are those of heaven – meaning “angels”.
Mikeboll,
You said:Quote I usually quote the words as they are written: “inherit the Kingdom of God”. But I believe, as I think most sensible people do also, that the phrase Paul used refers to “entering heaven”, where one can inherit God's Kingdom. So whereever it is written 'Inherit' we can change it to 'Enter' and where it says 'Kingdom of God' we can change it to say 'Heaven'?
Interesting idea.
So, in effect, are you saying that there will be no more Earth because everyone who comes through the tribulation will be in Heaven?
That they will have entered into the Heaven?
That the elite will be rulers with Christ over Heaven (Not the Earth)?So have you added yet another changed word to your list: 'Heaven' instead of 'Kingdom of God'?
Continue this way and no one will know what they are reading – just make anything mean what you want it to mean irrespective of the intent of the person who wrote it.
Confusion abounds!!
Quote (toby @ April 05 2012,19:30) Hi Mikeboll,
You said to Kerwin:Quote (mikeboll @ 64) God can change Jesus from a spirit being which can not die into a flesh being which can, but the body surrounding him is more precious than him, and therefore can't be allowed to die like the beloved Son that was in that body? This is hilarious.
So Mikeboll, you are saying the (non-existent) Spiritual Body of a Spirit is more precious to God than the Spirit within it?
Apparently I didn't word my comment very well, for Nick was also confused by my wording.I was actually poking fun at YOU and KERWIN for thinking that the spiritual BODY of Jesus couldn't die because God made it perfect, but that the spiritual BEING of Jesus could.
That makes no sense. If God decides to destroy an angel who was created in an imperishable body, and designed to never die, why would you think God could destroy this perfect BEING, but not destroy his perfect BODY? Odd stuff.
Quote (toby @ April 05 2012,19:34) So you are saying that Jesus was raised up from the dead in a 'Spirit Body'?
But Mikeboll, Jesus showed that 'Spirit Body' to his disciples and said 'Touch me (my 'Spirit Body' as you would say). See that I am not a Spirit (Being)'.
Not at all. It is clear from Luke 24 that Jesus was raised from the dead in a flesh and bone body. It is clear that he wasn't yet a spirit, because he said as much to his disciples.Quote (toby @ April 05 2012,19:34) ]Mikeboll, I think you will need to say what you mean by 'In the sense you imply' as it is unclear exactly what you are saying here.
Toby, what do YOU think is meant by Paul's use of the words “spiritual body”? Don't you argue that it is similar to “putting on the spiritual man”? Don't you assert that the dead will be raised in a flesh body, but they will be spiritually driven instead of guided by sinful flesh?This is how I understand what you've said before. But set the record straight right here and now:
What do YOU think Paul means by the dead will be raised in a spiritual body?Also, to whom do you suppose Paul refers with the words, so also are those of heaven?
Quote (toby @ April 05 2012,19:36) So whereever it is written 'Inherit' we can change it to 'Enter' and where it says 'Kingdom of God' we can change it to say 'Heaven'? Interesting idea.
That's not what I said at all, now is it Toby?If you disagree with me, start the poll thread about it. Let's see who believes what about that phrase. Who knows, maybe I'm the only here who thinks Paul is speaking about entering heaven.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 04 2012,21:02) Hi KW,
Would you add UNCHANGED to hold up your tattered dogma?
He has that same urge that many of you have, Nick. He adds the word “NEW” into Col 1:16, making it mean that the NEW creation was created through Jesus.He adds “NEW” to Hebrews 1:2, making it say that God created the NEW ages through Jesus.
It is as bad as you exchanging the word “Jesus” for “the spirit of Christ inside me” in scriptures where it says “Jesus said” or “Jesus did”.
But Kerwin, I would like to know what the stuff you posted even means. By what SCRIPTURAL means did you come to the understanding of “UNCHANGED flesh”?
Mikeboll,
You said,Quote Quote
Hi MB,
You say
“God can change Jesus from a spirit being which can not die into a flesh being which can, but the body surrounding him is more precious than him, and therefore can't be allowed to die like the beloved Son that was in that body”What is this stuff from?
Not the bibleNick,
First read the post to which I responded. Next, do not quote me out of context, without the question mark and the “confused” smilie. You made it seem like I made a statement SUPPORTING that nonsense.
I read it exactly the same way Nick did. As would everybody else.
Perhaps you could drop the attempt at being sarcastic and just write what you mean.Quote But in reality, I am in disbelief that these guys say Jesus couldn't have had a spiritual body before being made into a man because that perfect body could not be destroyed. No, Mikeboll, we saying that the Spiritual Body can't be destroyed because it never existed. You are the only one saying that Jesus was in a Spiritual Body before being made as man. Not one other single credible person in the history of the world has made such a statement.
Quote I'm pointing out to them that it is asinine to assume the perfect body couldn't be destroyed when the perfect Son of God could. Mikeboll, where in Scriptures does it say that the perfect Son of God could be destroyed. I mean where does it say or illude to that?
In addition, there is only one reference to God destroying whathe has created before the end if time – and that was in reference to the CORRUPTED MAN ('And God regretted that he had created Man').
So, for God to destroy his own 'perfection' is that 'Assinine'?
God would certainly destroy that which had become corrupted, no longer perfect, or tending towards sin. And even Sinful Angels are not destroyed until the end of time and Mankind is given time to repent and recover from his sinful nature and be RENEWED* to his Spiritual State.(* Scriptures does not say 'New Body', it says 'RENEWED Body'.
This is yet another of your 'Changed Words'. Mikeboll, if you think you are speaking truth of Scriptures, why the need to keep changing words to what was not written and this changing the context of what was written? Remember 'Drunk'? I did not write 'Drank', nor did Apostle Paul write 'Spirit Body' nor 'Enter the Kingdom of God'. Mikeboll, just use the words as they are given in Scriptures so we can all sing from the same song sheet – thanks – and if you can't prove your point except by making changes to Scriptures (Not a good idea – be warned) then presume firstly (and more importantly, WISELY) that you are wrong!)Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 06 2012,08:07) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 04 2012,21:02) Hi KW,
Would you add UNCHANGED to hold up your tattered dogma?
He has that same urge that many of you have, Nick. He adds the word “NEW” into Col 1:16, making it mean that the NEW creation was created through Jesus.He adds “NEW” to Hebrews 1:2, making it say that God created the NEW ages through Jesus.
It is as bad as you exchanging the word “Jesus” for “the spirit of Christ inside me” in scriptures where it says “Jesus said” or “Jesus did”.
But Kerwin, I would like to know what the stuff you posted even means. By what SCRIPTURAL means did you come to the understanding of “UNCHANGED flesh”?
Mike,1 Corinthians 15:52
King James Version (KJV)52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Romans 8
King James Version (KJV)21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Romans 8
King James Version (KJV)11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
That is three witnesses. You either believe them or you do not. That is your choice; choose wisely.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 06 2012,07:35) Quote (kerwin @ April 04 2012,21:41) You know what the experts at Strong's say. You know what Paul teaches. You know they are in agreement. So why don't you believe them.
James Strong teaches that Paul taught about a Trinity Godhead. According to Strong himself, he and Paul are in agreement. So why don't you believe them, Kerwin?
Mike,I would have to walk you through Romans 8 as if I was walking a blind man through an obstacle course when he did not wish to go.
When you want to go you will go and your eyes will be opened. Until then there are other things that can be addressed.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 06 2012,13:07) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 04 2012,21:02) Hi KW,
Would you add UNCHANGED to hold up your tattered dogma?
He has that same urge that many of you have, Nick. He adds the word “NEW” into Col 1:16, making it mean that the NEW creation was created through Jesus.He adds “NEW” to Hebrews 1:2, making it say that God created the NEW ages through Jesus.
It is as bad as you exchanging the word “Jesus” for “the spirit of Christ inside me” in scriptures where it says “Jesus said” or “Jesus did”.
But Kerwin, I would like to know what the stuff you posted even means. By what SCRIPTURAL means did you come to the understanding of “UNCHANGED flesh”?
Hi MB,
Added?
There are two creations
But there is only one relevant creation.Do you STILL not believe Jn7.16f?
How do you to understand let alone try to teach without this truth?Quote (kerwin @ April 04 2012,05:33) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 03 2012,19:04) To All……….Again there is no such ting as a “SPIRIT BODY” Spirits are what is (IN) BODIES of all Kinds. Spirits can only find REST (IN) BODIES. Consider this, Spirits is like a Large Lakes of Water and if one takes and Pours some of the water into a Cup or Vessel they contains some of (that) same Water, that is in that Particular Lake, But it has been separated from the rest of the same water in that Lake, But it is still the same “KIND” or “TYPE” of Water that is in that Particular Lake. Now if i took a Billion Cups or vessels and Poured some of that lakes water into it, it would still be the same water as was in the lake but in a Billion different vessels at the same time, so it is with Spirits, You can have the exact same Spirit in you as I or anyone else Has, all at the same times. So the spirits are not individuals “BEINGS” they are Individual Aspects or Attributes of KINDS and Types that are in vessels i.e, “BODIES” and these Spirits give the Vessels or Bodies they are (IN) their Cognate thoughts their (INTELLECTS). Just that simple Spirit are NOT Beings they are what is (IN) Beings. Spirits have been “PERSONIFIED: in SCRIPTURE and this has caused many to think they are complete individual Beings, when in fact they are not. Just another confusion brought on by “MYSTERY RELIGIOUS” teachings. IMO.
peace and love to you all……………………………………………….gene
Gene,Allegories in there place are good but an allegory where evidence should be is useless.
What evidence do you have to support your belief?
Kerwin……….I have produced many many many scriptures that show this over and over. Spirits are NOT “BEINGS” of any kind they are what is (IN) Beings and if you Don't understand that, then how can you understand what i have written. But if you could understand that then it should be no Problem to understand it. Understanding what i have written about Spirits can help you better understand scriptures Kerwin. IMOpeace and love………………………….gene
Mike………..Your problem of not knowing what a Spirits (IS) is what is tripping you up. Spirits are not “BODIES” of any kind not now or ever will be. Spirits form our minds by what they impart to our thinking and in this way influence our behaviors.
“either make the tree good, and it's fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt and its fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by “his” fruit
The word Tree there means (that which produces from Self ) We are to either be corrupted and thrown into a fire or made Good and inherit eternal life. We can not be both we must go one way or the other.
For a good tree brings not forth corrupt fruit neither does a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. For every tree is known by his own fruit. For from thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes
Spirits (IN) a Person determine the Fruits of a person. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………………………..gene
Gene,
You wrote:
Quote Kerwin……….I have produced many many many scriptures that show this over and over. Spirits are NOT “BEINGS” of any kind they are what is (IN) Beings and if you Don't understand that, then how can you understand what i have written. But if you could understand that then it should be no Problem to understand it. Understanding what i have written about Spirits can help you better understand scriptures Kerwin. IMO peace and love………………………….gene
If scriptures do not convince people then if you are saying the same thing your words will not . I know for myself that repeatedly seeing the evidence can aid me in learning.
Hi Mikeboll,
You said:Quote Toby: Quote So whereever it is written 'Inherit' we can change it to 'Enter' and where it says 'Kingdom of God' we can change it to say 'Heaven'? Interesting idea.
That's not what I said at all, now is it Toby?
So just what is it you said, Mikeboll. Perhaps if you try writing what you really mean then what people think you are writing will be clearer – but then again, even you don't understand what you are saying and hence the need for clarification at every turn.
This is also why, I presume, you cannot present your claims as one cohesive list of (your version of truth)!
I have presented mine but you cannot present yours – and for good reason.
Presenting a bit here and a bit there gives you the chance to change the specific part you are currently misrepresenting without reference to the rest of what is out of line with your false ideology.Perhaps what you are saying is similar to what is said concerning 'The root of Evil': 'Money is the root of all evil'.
That is what people understand and say – but – that is NOT what Scriptures actually says, is it?
Scriptures says, 'Money is the root of MANY evils'.Now, people may, through ignorance and desire to conform unthinkingly to what 'feels right' to their mind, say the former but when it is pointed out to them the truth do they not agree on it – even if they continue through their ignorance, to say the former when no one is there to correct them and thus propagate the false saying onto those who are easily influenced or maybe never read or heard the true saying!
Therefore, if you are teaching or trying to convince another of a truth, don't teach fallacy.
The Scriptures verse says 'Flesh and Blood cannot Inherit the Kingdom Of God.
The Scriptures verse DOES NOT say 'Flesh and Blood cannot Enter into Heaven.
This is because the phrase or term 'Flesh and Blood' in context here means 'Mortal, Sinful, or Earthly minded, Person'. It is a term known to and understood by Jews just as in the phrase that Jesus says to Simon BarJonah: 'Flesh and Blood did not reveal this to you but my Father in Heaven' – it certainly did not mean 'A body of Flesh did not tell you…'.Quote If you disagree with me, start the poll thread about it. Let's see who believes what about that phrase. Who knows, maybe I'm the only here who thinks Paul is speaking about entering heaven. Mikeboll, a billion billion others against your possible 30 others (are there 30 people in HN?) I think there is no contest there.
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