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Hi KW,
Sin is in the eye of the Beholder.Ps32
1Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.2Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
James 5:20
let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.1 Peter 4:8
Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins.Matthew 22:10
“Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.We can be too hard on ourselves
1 John 3:20
For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote Sin is in the eye of the Beholder.
I suppose you mean sin is in God’s eye. One thing I know is God does change and what he wanted of his people in the Old Testament is what He wants of us now.
Compare:
Ezekiel 18:21-23(NIV) reads:
Quote “But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
To:
Nick Hassan quoted:
Quote James 5:20
Quote let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
Nick Hassan quoted:
Quote We can be too hard on ourselves
1 John 3:20
Quote
For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.I do not believe your understanding fits the context of the passage it comes from as you can see.
1 John 3:18-24(NIV) reads:
Quote Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
Still we should not condemn ourselves as it is God who judges. We should instead feel remorse for our sins and that remorse should lead us to seek to overcome them. Through perseverance we can overcome them through faith in Jesus Christ.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 10 2009,23:54) What I am saying is that we can stop sinning by God’s grace through faith in Jesus our Lord. Really? Have you stopped sinning? You realize what human nature is, don't you? The bible refers to it as “sinful nature”. Hmmmm
Hello to all,I have been interested for some time regarding this discussion but have not posted to date. If I may, I will share the following observations. Perhaps they will shed some light on the discussion – perhaps not.
There is a balance that seems key. The potential to walk sinless in increasing measure does seem to be held out in the word.
Quote GAL 5:22-24 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Quote GAL 5:16-18 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. So, the potential not to sin is held out. I remember Paul's dychotomy in Romans seven. The sinless walk is hard if not impossible when we continue to hold our life up against the law. Paul released from that antagonism when he discovered he had been set free.
Quote What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God–through Jesus Christ our Lord!Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. Rom.7:24-25; 8:1-4 So, set free, the potential is there. Perhaps that is what Kerwin refers to though I cannot speak for him.
On the other hand not3in1 and others realize and stress another reality, the other side of the coin if you would.
Quote 1JN 1:5-7 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. There again is the potential, but here is the reality –
Quote 1JN 1:10; 2:1-2 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense–Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. For what it is worth, I see perfection as a walk and a goal -something to strive for – PHP 3:12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me
Will I attain it this side of glory? I think not for Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure. 1Jn.3:2-3
How does the song go, Oh to be like Him such is my goal and I am so thankful for His blood and the grace and mercy that cover my shortcomings. AMEN – come Lord Jesus!
Just some of my thoughts.
Seeking
Hi KW,
God wants righteousness.
God knows we cannot produce it.
The law demonstrated that and now the Spirit can.
Once we pass through the gate from death to life, remorse is no longer the driving forceSeeking,
Good stuff!!
Of course the potential is there. It is the GOAL. But we hope for what we do not have yet…. We will not perfected (without sin) until that Day. We must strive for it, because we love God. But we cannot imagine, like Erwin does, that we can attain a righteousness like God's while we are yet human. That's not the plan, and never has been the plan so far as I'm aware.
I also must add, that I feel the writer's (or editors) of the bible have set us up for failure in some places. Perhaps Paul was on a “high note” when he wrote some of his letters about overcoming sin. Perhaps he had just come from a kicking camp meeting and was filled with hope and power to overcome (we've all been there). But then the flesh wakes up and the true battle begins. Anyway, just my own silly thoughts on that.
Love,
MandyHi Erwin,
Quote I hope for a righteousness that is like God’s and I am certain I will receive it because He said those that “hunger and thirst for righteousness will be filled” and God does not lie.
You like to keep things in context. Well, do it here as well. God never promised you would have a righteousness like his while we are yet human. If he did, I missed that passage. From what I understand, we will only ever see in part, and know in part, until that Day. If we had a righteousness like the Father's…..gosh all the things we would know and enjoy. Further, we wouldn't need to die and be resurrected – would we?Truly, if we were without sin and had God's righteousness….why would we need to die?
Quote How does that invalidate God’s promise?
This is your answer to my question: Have you ever seen a sinless Christian?Erwin, how does your answer validate God's so-called promise? It doesn't. Because God never said we would be sinless while here in a human body (if so, where did he say this?). And…..if there has never been a sinless Christian to date – gosh – you've got to wonder.
Quote No one sins when they are dead.
EXACTLY!
Likewise, people sin when they are alive.Fighting the good fight does not mean that these men were sinless. The very nature of “fighting” leads us to imagine there was a struggle. Because we are human, we do not win every struggle; we do not win every fight. It's just not reality, bro.
Love,
MandyHi,
It is impossible, even after rebirth, to walk in the dirty world and not need our feet washed.
Jn13
9Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.10Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
1 Corinthians 5:9
9I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 12 2009,06:38) It is impossible, even after rebirth, to walk in the dirty world and not need our feet washed.
Wonderful insight, bro!Not3in1(Mandy) wrote:
Quote God never promised you would have a righteousness like his while we are yet human.
We will always be human as that is what God created us to be. We will just go from having a temporary body to having one that does not decay. My guess is that that body will be just like Jesus’ after he was resurrected as he is the first born of a new creation.
I also understand that you are in denial since scripture does not only state God's promise of righteousness one time but it states it many times.
Ephesians 4:20-24(NIV) reads:
Quote You, however, did not come to know Christ that way. Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
So do as scripture states and put off your old corrupt self and put on the new self that is created like God in true righteousness and holiness. It is true you cannot do that if you are adhering to a false doctrine.
Not3in1(Mandy) wrote:
Quote Further, we wouldn't need to die and be resurrected – would we?
Not everyone will die as some will be changed in a flash, 1 Corinthians 15:51-52. But as to why some die the answer is that God states it will be, not to purify us as you seem to believe, but that the perishable body may pass away. It is by God’s grace that we are purified by faith in Jesus Christ if we believe what he teaches and so do it.
Not3in1(Mandy) wrote:
Quote Likewise, people sin when they are alive.
That is why those that believe, die with Christ so they no longer live in slavery to sin just as it is written:
Romans 6:6-7(NIV) reads:
Quote For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
Not3in1(Mandy) wrote:
Quote The very nature of “fighting” leads us to imagine there was a struggle. Because we are human, we do not win every struggle; we do not win every fight.
You are speaking of human effort again and I assure you human effort will fail but God can do anything. God will do His work but He will also test the hearts of those He is working on. If you fail a test then repent and get up and pursue the goal of being like him in true righteousness being confident if you continue running the race God will change you and give you all you need to reach that goal.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote God wants righteousness.
God knows we cannot produce it.
I agree with you on both of these.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote The law demonstrated that and now the Spirit can.
I am not sure what you mean here as your statement is vague. The Law does demonstrate that we cannot uphold God’s desire for us by human effort. The Spirit is different as it allows us a way to fulfill God’s desire because He does it for us if we preserve in believing His promises through His Son Jesus our Lord.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote Once we pass through the gate from death to life, remorse is no longer the driving force
What do you think of this scripture?
2 Corinthians 7:8-10(NIV) reads:
Quote Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it—I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while— yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
Romans 3:9
[ No One is Righteous ] What shall we conclude then? Are we any better ? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.Romans 3:10
As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;Galatians 3:11
Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”Hi Erwin,
I have more to share but my son just got home. Be back later.
MandyHi KW,
The law could not produce righteousness and it stands testament to that fact for us.
The Spirit of Christ at work in and through us is what God wants.
Christ continuing his work through his bodyGod does not want us studying our navel and guiltbound as that just demonstrates our doubt in the effectiveness of the Son's work for us and shows a deeper reliance on a false belief that we can be righteous.
2 Corinthians 7:8-10(NIV) reads:Quote
Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it—I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while— yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
So the saved must yet gain insights into bad behaviours and repent as the light of the Spirit shines into the dark corners. Speaking the truth in love is the way of brothers towards each other. Worldly depression and despair without the hope of salvation is yet another trap of Satan that can lead to death.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 11 2009,17:18) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 11 2009,13:24) Hi to all: Grace is not a license to sin, but is the mercy of God when we fall short. We must not be deceived into believing that it is ok for us, as Christians, to give in to sin. We must submit ourselves to God and resist the temptation to sin.
Quote Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid Love in Christ,
Marty
Hey Marty,What God loving Christian wants to sin? I just can't imagine what Christian would use grace as an okeydokey to sin?
Rather, sincere Christians who are struggling with sin fall into temptation that they cannot seem to overcome. There is a difference, imo.
Love,
Mandy
Hi Mandy:We need one another to pray for one another asking God to help us to overcome our faults.
And we, will make mistakes, but I just don't want anyone to think that what has been said that we should give in to sin because of God's grace, and I hope that no one has. Nevertheless, I have stated what I have stated as pre-caution.
Quote Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. Quote Jam 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. It is so nice to see you back and sharing your understanding of the scriptures.
My desire is God's very best for you and your family.
Love in Christ,
MartyNot3in1(Mandy) wrote:
Quote I have more to share but my son just got home. Be back later.
It is interesting the way you cherry pick scripture in your attempt to prove that God does not release those who obey His Son’s teachings from slavery to sin. The question you should ask yourself is “why you want to believe that“? I assure you it is better if you believe God will free you through faith in His Son.
Take Romans 3:9-10 and stretch it down to verse 19 and 20 where the conclusion of Paul’s argument is and you will find out he is speaking of those under the Law and not of those under the Spirit.
Romans 3:19(NIV) wrote:
Quote Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
You quoted:
Galatians 3:11
Quote
Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”Verse 20 of Romans 3 actually makes the same point as Galatians 3:11 with the words:
Romans 3:20(NIV) reads:
Quote Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
And as I have done before I will do once again and assure you that no one can obtain righteousness through human effort. A point Paul also paraphrased earlier in Galatians 3 with the words:
Galatians 3:2-3(NIV) reads:
Quote I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?
Enjoy yourself and the son God has blessed you with.
Hi KW,
Is sinning proof of slavery to sin?Yes for natural men
John 8:34
Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.No for the ones who have died in Christ by baptism.
Now we have power to resist we are exhorted to do so.Rom6
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote Is sinning proof of slavery to sin?
Here is what the scriptures states.
Romans 6:16(NIV) reads:
Quote Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
And
John 8:34(NIV) reads
Quote Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.
But you have already deduced that.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote No for the ones who have died in Christ by baptism. Now we have power to resist we are exhorted to do so.
I agree but have more to add to what you wrote.
Many claim to have died in Christ by baptism but have not as they follow a false doctrine. Those who really follow Jesus’ teachings have the spirit and thus can stop sinning as the can live by the Spirit as it is written.
Galatians 5:16(NIV) reads:
Quote So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
But if you choose to live by the sinful nature then you make yourself a slave to sin. So I urge people first to follow the true gospel of Christ, despite the many manmade ones that abound, and second to live by the spirit through faith. I also caution them if they do stumble then do not give up but instead confess your sins and get back on the path of righteousness for God is faithful and will cleanse you of all unrighteousness.
Hi KW,
What we follow after the choice to be baptised into Christ predicts our fate.
As you say many are branches cut off or bridesmaids not admitted to the feast.Kerwin………problem is presenting yourself as having no sin and condemning sin in others is hypocrisy why should anyone who is a sinner themselves condemn another because of their sin. We (ALL) know we should not sin, no one here has said its OK to sin as far as i have seen so far. But to deny we have (NO) sin is simply lying, as John plainly said. Have you or nick ever considered you yourselves are branches cut off or bridesmaids not admitted to the feast, (NO) thats obvious because you position yourselves as the ones who judge that about others, Does the word HYPOCRITE MEAN ANYTHING TO YOU. ” He who condemns another condemns himself” and again “for with what manor you Judge it shall be measured unto you”. Using the word of God as a hammer for posturing yourself above others is a sin of Pride which is far worse then many other sins. IMO
peace…………………..gene
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