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Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 10 2009,00:46) Quote (TimothyVI @ Feb. 09 2009,18:29) God knew before He created us that we would all be sinners, and He did it anyway.
And He said it was “GOOD”.Tim
God did know that through Adam that the human race would be enslaved to sin but he also knew that through Jesus the Messiah we would be set free from sin and thus His creation of man was very good.That does not say that those who choose to continue to remain slaves to sin are pleasing in his sight.
Kerwin……in what way did Jesus set us free from Sin, If as you think He did then non of us would have any sin in our lives, yet we all do, so there must be something else he set us free from, because sin still exists in all of us, So what was it then? It was the penalty of JUDGMENT, “for all who believe have (PASSED) from JUDGMENT to LIFE”> God not holding our sins against us, because Jesus paid our Price tag for sins as scripture says. For you have been brought with a price.Many think by knowing the truth you are set free, that also is a fallacy , Do you think a drug user does not know the truth about there addictions, but that truth doesn't set them free at all does it. I once had a cigarette addiction and though i full well know it would kill me and tried for a soild year to quite and after Praying and telling GOD, unless He took it from me i was no longer going to try to quit i totally gave up, i got up from that prayer and for 12 year did not even desire a cigarette from the moment I prayed.
So what my point its your can try to chose all you want to not sin , but it only when GOD decides to take it away will it truly leave you. God leaves on us enough sin to keep us humble, so we don't think we are any better then anyone else in this world. To keep (PRIDE) at bay, Lest our knowledge puff us up.
IMO
peace………………………gene
Well, I have not read all the posts on this tread.
But, I'm going to add my two cents nonetheless.
Trying to stay on the original topic…or question being asked here:
I can tell you this much.
It seems that I sin on a daily basis. Some things I've done thinking that they really were not sins. Or that maybe I could get away with it.
Some things I've done, in the same manner that Paul wrote. It was stuff that I do not want to do. I've made up my mind that I do not want to do this thing anymore. And, yet I find myself doing just that very thing. Just like Paul said. I do what I would not do. So the flesh tends to take us over it seems. When you would do right or good evil is always present.
Last night I did something that I was not planning on doing. I should have known better, but I was thinking that I would be able to handle myself. Turns out that I did not.
In fact I even had a dream on the matter, thus I knew before hand what I would do. And, I could not stop myself.
So now today I'm back in condemnation again.
I only pray that my whole dream is not what is going to take place. Although, it is no more than I most likely deserve.
Samuel……..as the flesh dies so does the sin, you will see this happen as you get older, Many sins are driven by the flesh, especially sexual sins, the Shot of indorfins that are released in our minds is more powerful the Heroin they say, so we are additive, but take it from an older brother that leaves as you get older. One thing that helps is to not go where it is triggered and don't watch sexually explicit film or shows that arouse these thing in you. It's a struggle brother because we are influenced far more now ,then in the past when these things were prohibited, it's a tougher struggle. But because you fell shame and discuss shows the Spirit is with you, Just Pray and confess you sin to GOD and get up and start new every day if that what it takes, in the end you will win, because greater is he that is in you then he that is in the world. We all have been through that or our going through it , you will win in the end brother. Do not give up.
love and peace to you and yours…………………..gene
Hi,
Scripture differentiates between serious sin and less serious sin and it also separates deliberate sin from unconscious sin.We are not to live in self condemnation but let guilt bring us to Jesus and our brothers for forgiveness so we can move on.
To all,
If you want to believe the bible, then believe all of it. As Nick has mentioned, there is NO CONDEMNATION FOR THOSE WHO ARE IN CHRIST JESUS. It must be shouted because there are those like Kerwin who insist on telling Christians the reason for their sinful state is due to lack of faith, or doctrine, or desire. {shaking head in disgust}.
Sam, your post is exactly why Erwin's message doesn't sit well with me. When we are told that there is no condemnation under Christ, what do you think that means? Do you think that translates to, “You will not sin anymore.”? It doesn't. Christ never taught that we would not sin anymore. He told us that we could be saved from the bondage of sin.
God has BOUND (tied, under legal or moral obligation, destined) ALL men over to disobedience, so that he can have mercy (power of a judge to pardon) on them ALL.
Romans 11:32
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.Being a slave (bondage-involuntary servitude) to sin is another way of saying we are INVOLUNTARILY participating in sin. We cannot control it. We cannot choose to do right, even though we try. Esentially I am saying that we have to sin. We were programed this way, and obviously for a reason; that God may have mercy on us.
Paul gives us a short lesson in what this means. He says, “Should we go on sinning and sin for the heck of it because it helps God reach his goal of giving us mercy?” (paraphrased, of course). The logical answer is no, we should not help God out by doing bad stuff. On the other hand, our very nature demands that we do. It's a struggle; one hell of a struggle. If you're in the fight (Sam and other's) then you are not losing……you are fighting the good fight. But Jesus doesn't want you to miss his message of FREEDOM. He doesn't want you to feel condemned because you sin. No, no siree!! Jesus came so that we can look forward to the Day when we will be free from the BONDAGE OF SIN.
When Jesus “set people free from the bondage of sin” were they sinless? Did they sin again after that? Of course they did. So obviously Jesus wasn't preaching a message contrary to God's mission (to have mercy on us all). Jesus wasn't going around setting people free from the bondage the Father put into place! Otherwise God wouldn't have anyone to have mercy on in the end. And what kind of finish would that be (snore). No, I believe Jesus said who he sets free is free indeed…….they are reconciled. Counted worthy even though they are not. Counted innocent EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE NOT.
Jesus died; he rose again. He is free from the human condition. We WILL BE, too. We are not now, however. We are given grace to deal with our condition. We are justified (declared innocent *read this Sam* guiltless, aquit) of our condition. We were reconciled (accepted). EVEN WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS, Jesus died for us. It was God's love shown to us, human beings/sinful nature. Even though we sin, we are still acceptable children.
If this is not true, then we were never reconciled back to the Father, and Jesus failed.
Check your doctrine, Erwin. Check it at the door!! Come in and join us for a cup of humility and grace. Come sit with the sinners!
Mandy
Good stuff not3,
I love the tongue in cheek statement of our Lord.
Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 10 2009,03:27) All I see is you doing the devil’s work by keeping those that hope to be free bound to slavery to sin.
I'm nearly speechless (if you can imagine)!Erwin, think what you will about me and my message. Press on towards the goal, bro.
But you are giving false hope to many. Your message lends itself to even more bondage. It's a poplular message from the pulpit, this much is true. And it makes for great alter calls and full tithing baskets.
It leaves believer's exhausted for trying, and under condemnation for not being able to attain the unattainable.
Being set free from the bondage of sin is something we will experience on that Day. It is our hope and salvation. It is something we will gain in the future. Paul says that we do not hope for what we already have.
To prove my point I have asked you this same question a couple times now with no answer, I will ask you one last time:
Do you know a sinless Christian?
Not3in1(Mandy) wrote:
Quote Erwin, think what you will about me and my message. Press on towards the goal, bro.
I am saying nothing new. If you read scripture then you would have already heard the same message, Paul speaks of those who are trying to lead Christians back to slavery to sin with these words.
Galatians 2:4(NIV) reads:
Quote This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves.
The true gospel on the other hand teaches us.
Romans 6:15-18(NIV) reads:
Quote What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
It is clear from these scriptures that you are not saying what God teaches through His servants.
Not3in1(Mandy) wrote:
Quote But you are giving false hope to many.
It is a false hope only to those who do not believe that God will do as he says. I choose to believe what God says is true and that He has the power to do as He promises.
Not3in1(Mandy) wrote:
Quote Your message lends itself to even more bondage.
If you obey Jesus’ teaching then you will be set free from bondage to sin and will become servants to righteousness. If you consider being a servant to righteousness bondage then it is a bondage I am willing to strive for.
Not3in1(Mandy) wrote:
Quote It's a popular message from the pulpit, this much is true. And it makes for great alter calls and full tithing baskets.
I do not know what pulpit’s you are listening to but the ones I have listened to say in one way or another that a person cannot be freed from slavery to sin. There are rare exceptions but the few I know place obstacles in front of a person striving to be free from slavery to sin. What I do find is that most people flee from the true gospel of Christ and gather around them teachers who tell their itching ears what they want to hear and reward their false teachers for soothing their ears.
Not3in1(Mandy) wrote:
Quote It leaves believer's exhausted for trying, and under condemnation for not being able to attain the unattainable.
That is human effort you are speaking of which is doomed to failure. It is God’s effort through faith in Jesus the Messiah by which you must obtain the goal of being righteous as God is righteous.
Not3in1(Mandy) wrote:
Quote Do you know a sinless Christian?
Your question is irrelevant to what Jesus teaches for even if there is not one person who adheres to the true gospel of Christ it is still the true gospel of Christ. At this time I personally do not know one person who adheres to the true gospel of Christ. All that means is prophecy is fulfilled for it is written:
2 Timothy 4:3(NIV) reads:
Quote For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote Why do you say you have yet to enter the covenant?
I have not yet fully followed the teachings of Jesus.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote If you have yet to enter what holds you back?
I have a conundrum which is whether or not being baptized by a heretic is a valid baptism and I have not yet come across someone who teaches or even believes the gospel message I hear from scripture.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote Can sins be put under the feet of the unsaved?
Some sins but not all. Even an Atheist who is an alcoholic can turn away from that particular sin but they are still a slave to sin.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote Does continuing to sin prove one is yet to enter?
What continuing to sin proves is that you are not living by the Spirit and you best put it on before you are found unclothed on day God calls you. But in order to do that you need to believe all of what God states is true.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote If so why does 1Jn1 tell us otherwise?
1 John 1 is not telling us otherwise as it is not contradicting what is said elsewhere such as in Galatians 5:16-26 where it clearly states those who live according to the sinful nature will not enter the kingdom of God.
To All………He who says He has (NO SIN) IS A LIAR> is there anyone Here without SIN , Let Him speak up. I would like to Know ? If Not then those who require it of others, and are not themselves, are nothing more then HYPOCRITES AND LIARS> IMO
peace……………………gene
Hi KW,
Has anyone fully followed the teachings of Jesus?1Jn5 does show us the place we are going towards
17All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
18We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
19And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
But we have so much to learn on the way
1 John 2:27
As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.This is the starting point
Matthew 9:13
But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”So we come on board and let the Spirit shine the light within us and enabling us to be set free on the way.
Heb12
1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
14Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 10 2009,13:51) I have not yet come across someone who teaches or even believes the gospel message I hear from scripture.
I have to wonder at a statement like this one.It sort of gives me insight into the reasons why you interpret scripture the way that you do. Proceed with caution.
Love,
MandyGene Balthrop wrote:
Quote To All………He who says He has (NO SIN) IS A LIAR> is there anyone Here without SIN , Let Him speak up. I would like to Know ? If Not then those who require it of others, and are not themselves, are nothing more then HYPOCRITES AND LIARS> IMO
That makes you a servant of the devil because you teach that all people are slaves to sin and thus deny the gospel of Jesus Christ. I suggest you become wise and believe what God states before your perish.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote Has anyone fully followed the teachings of Jesus?
Yes, I believe there are those even in these dark days that fully follow the teachings of Jesus but they are rare and few in number.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote But we have so much to learn on the way
That is true and our first lesson is to pursue God’s holiness and righteousness.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote This is the starting point
I agree that when you obtain righteousness then you will truly love your neighbor as yourself.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote So we come on board and let the Spirit shine the light within us and enabling us to be set free on the way.
It is through the Spirit that we will obtain our goal the desire of our hearts.
Hi KW,
We cannot attain righteousness but it is imputed to us from the one we are joined to, Jesus.
Psalm 32
1Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.Lk15
22But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote We cannot attain righteousness but it is imputed to us from the one we are joined to, Jesus.
In the Old Testament those that believed were imputed with righteousness so why would Jesus die for that?
Genesis 15:!6(NIV) reads:
Quote Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
Jesus died that we would be reborn in Spirit and if we live by that Spirit then we will be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
Romans 8:4(NIV) reads:
Quote in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
The robe is the Spirit and one should be careful not to be found without it when God calls.
Matthew 22:11-14(NIV) reads:
Quote “But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless. “Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”
So you are without sin then Kewrin? Is this what you are telling me?
You never get angry and through something at someone, You never say something that you should'nt to someone, you never look at something you should'nt. And, this is the big one for men:
You never see a woman and think about how good she looks? Or have desired to be with her?
I do this about every time I even get a glimpse of a good looking woman.
The bible says that you have already comitted the sin in your heart. The world we live in today…the way women dress. The stuff they put on posters, TV, Radio, whatever…you'd have to go hide in the woods to get away from it all.
Which might actually be what I need to do.
IT's a DEVIL's WORLD! (At least for the time being.)
You never eat too much?
All the people that I go to church with preach about smoking, and drinking, which I feel are bad things to do even if you are not planning on serving GOD…because it kills you. Nonetheless, They preach about these things, Women should not cut their hair, Men should cut their hair, men should shave. You should wear long sleeves etc etc…
Then they go right over there and sit down with a big heaping plate of food and scarf it all down.
Oh…but that sin is not as great as the other sin.
SIN IS SIN… AND ALL SIN IS WORTHY OF DEATH!
PERIOD
If you don't believe that then you for sure don't believe the Bible.
Now…I'm sure you are probably doing much better than me with sin.
However, I'm also sure that you are not with out sin.
None are without sin.
Look at Peter…he is an Apostle for crying out loud!
And he completely denied the fact that he even knew who Jesus was.All this after Jesus forgave him of his sins.
Not once but THREE TIMES! He said “I don't even know the man”
And then at the end got mad about them keeping on asking him and cuse'd about it.
Was Peter done?
Is Peter done now?
NO
He is not done. He went on to preach the Gospel. So what then?
Are you trying to say that if someone gets forgiveness and then sins again they can't be assoiated with GOD any more? Are you trying to tell me there is not more forgiveness?
Is that what you are preaching brother?
I need to get my facts straight here.
Because if this is the case, then Jesus Died in vain. And we are all still in our sins.
Hebrews 6
1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3And this will we do, if God permit.
4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
So is that what this means?
After you have received the Holy Ghost and then you back slide you can't be forgiven any more?
OR can you Back Slide?
Mabye since after Jesus left and the comfoter came and now when you sin you can't be forgiven anymore?
It that what the Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost is?
So if this is the case?
What was it that Paul was going through?
Why was Paul so beside himself…he was disgusted with his flesh.
We know that he had comitted some sins, based on his writtings.
And we know that he had the gift of the Holy Ghost, and that he spoke with tongues as well.
So what then?
I wish I did know what was the real deal for sure. I wish I did know what “Religious Denomination” had everything right.
Not that it would make any difference, I'd probably still be giving in to my flesh, and sinning.
But at least I'd know the truth.
Samuel………Don't be discouraged by Babblers who foam out fear mongering , He believes He Has no Sin therefore He proves himself a LIAR, and it just shows how blind he really is, as John plainly said. IF WE SAY WE HAVE NO SIN WE DECEIVE OURSELVES, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN US. iT ALSO SAYS HE WHO CONDEMNS ANOTHER CONDEMNS HIMSELF. Do not be intimidated by such a fools we need to continue to pray and ask GOD for Help by confessing our sins before him, He is faithful to forgive our sins and cleans us from all unrighteousness. Kerwin reminds me of the self righteous Pharisee who said I thank you God i am not like other men , i do this and i do that and bla, bla bla, While the other simply said GOD forgive me (THE SINNER). Jesus said i tell he went down more Justified then the other. Better to stand in the lot of the Justified then the lot of the self righteous lying Hypocrites.
God bless you Samuel and Strengthen you……………………………………….gene
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