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Hi KW,
But all gentiles were not under the law.
They were to perish outside the Law.
The law cannot now save anyone.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 08 2009,04:50) Hi KW,
But all gentiles were not under the law.
They were to perish outside the Law.
The law cannot now save anyone.
As far as I know taking in to account their various beliefs about resurrection the Jews believed that righteous Gentiles would be resurrected despite the fact they did not adhere to the Law. Some extremist may have certainly rejected the righteous Gentile concept but they would be in conflict with scripture such as the account of Jonah and Nineveh.Still Paul was teaching that faith was the way to obtain the righteousness God desired from His people and not human effort as was taught by the law. He was not saying the Law was bad.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 28 2009,12:24) There is several questions that you should ask yourself on this subject. The first question is “does God desire us to be righteous as he is righteous?“ The answer I find in scripture is that he does. The second question is “can God live a righteous life in our bodies as he did in Jesus’?” Again the answer I come up with is yes. The third question is “will he do it?” and the answer I receive from scripture is he will do it for those who believe His Son is the King of kings Lord of lords and so make Jesus Lord of their life. I say this because scripture clearly states those who live the spirit will not sin. It is true that to live by the spirit you have faith and your faith must be completely mature to live by the spirit at all times. It is that goal toward which any true servant of Jesus, and thus God who he serves, will sincerely strive. This is the hope for which I strive and for which I earnestly desire others to strive for.
Good luck with that, brother.I think it is messages like this one that sends simple believers reeling. I have had several emails from folks who have visited this site who struggle with sin. They love God, Jesus, the other guy too.
They love them all!! But they struggle. Silently. They are tormented with the idea that they have to be sinless in order to be “holy” like Jesus was holy.Another great example of how the bible has set believers up to fail. Why? Because it can't be done, people! You cannot live in a human body and be without sin.
Which leads me to wonder about Jesus, himself. If he received the baptism of sinners, you have to wonder why? If he prayed the “prayer”, you have to wonder why? Was it all for show and example? Perhaps….. Or perhaps Jesus wasn't completely human.
But I'll let that rest right here.Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 08 2009,10:11) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 08 2009,04:50) Hi KW,
But all gentiles were not under the law.
They were to perish outside the Law.
The law cannot now save anyone.
As far as I know taking in to account their various beliefs about resurrection the Jews believed that righteous Gentiles would be resurrected despite the fact they did not adhere to the Law. Some extremist may have certainly rejected the righteous Gentile concept but they would be in conflict with scripture such as the account of Jonah and Nineveh.Still Paul was teaching that faith was the way to obtain the righteousness God desired from His people and not human effort as was taught by the law. He was not saying the Law was bad.
Hi KW,
Dependance of the Law for salvation was useless from the time God began his ministry through Jesus.Lk16
16The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.Now gentiles living in the squalor of the pigsty could qualify to receive the garment of righteousness if they would wake up and start walking[Lk15].
the thinker………..Amen Brother . Anyone who thinks He doesn't have sins is sadly mistaking. ONLY the self righteousness think that way not, those who are truly Honest with themselves. WE strive not to sin but we do fail at times, all of us do. GOD said He looked for (ONE) righteous Man and could find (NON). And as you brought out about King David, He murdered , committed adultery, and on His death bed gave instruction for His son the murder two men., He was a bloody man all the way to the end.
Now the self righteous hypocrites would say we are promoting Sin, but there as far from the truth as they can Be, recognizing Truth is not promoting Sin. WE are all called to walk right before GOD, but that doesn't mean we always do it. But if we sin we have an advocate with the FATHER. Jesus Christ who is the propitiation for our sins and not ours only but of the (WHOLE WORLD).
love and peace to you and yours ……………………………gene
Hi,
So the death of the sacrificial paschal Lamb can make peace with God for all men.
If only they would seek to be cleansed by his blood.Not3and1 wrote:
Quote Another great example of how the bible has set believers up to fail. Why? Because it can't be done, people! You cannot live in a human body and be without sin.
So your argument is that people are slaves to sin and will always remain that way despite scripture stating that Jesus died to set us free from sin and make us slaves to righteousness.
Not3and1 wrote:
Quote I think it is messages like this one that sends simple believers reeling. I have had several emails from folks who have visited this site who struggle with sin. They love God, Jesus, the other guy too. They love them all!! But they struggle. Silently. They are tormented with the idea that they have to be sinless in order to be “holy” like Jesus was holy.
Love is obedience to God so you do not love Him if you do not obey Him. Your goal should be to love Him as he desires to be loved. I will assume these people are speaking of what the hope they will do and not what they are doing.
If you struggle with sin then you are being sent a message. The first thing you need to do is check your gospel because there is only one gospel that will set you free from sin. I assure you if you gospel teaches you that you cannot be set free from slavery to sin then it is a false doctrine. It does not mean it is the true doctrine if it does teach you that you can be set free from sin but that is a good first step to testing it. Another step is to remove those false tenets that sabotage your belief that you can be set free from sin.
If you gospel is fine then you faith is the problem and that needs to be worked on. If you work on you faith through asking God to strengthen it and then seeking and taking every opportunity to strengthen it.
If you do all of these with a sincere heart then I assure you God will set you free from sin for he loves you and will do as he promises.
I assure you God has been generous to me and put some of my sins under my feed even though I have not yet obeyed Jesus' teachings. If He can do so much for me before I enter the new covenant how much more can He do for me when I have the Spirit to live by.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote Dependence of the Law for salvation was useless from the time God began his ministry through Jesus.
Did I say anything about depending on the Law for Salvation? Not at all. Rather I said whether you are “zealous for the law” or not your salvation lies in belief in Jesus as the Messiah and so living by the Spirit.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote Now gentiles living in the squalor of the pigsty could qualify to receive the garment of righteousness if they would wake up and start walking[Lk15].
You should read the story of Nineveh and Jonah as it is about Gentiles who repent and do what is right but do not follow the law. Jesus came to rescue both the Gentiles and the Jews from their sins and so save them from this world and in doing that he will save those who went before.
Matthew 1:21(NIV) reads:
Quote She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”
Hi KW,
You say
“You should read the story of Nineveh and Jonah as it is about Gentiles who repent and do what is right but do not follow the law. Jesus came to rescue both the Gentiles and the Jews from their sins and so save them from this world and in doing that he will save those who went before.”Quite so.
So we are and have never been reliant on OT law for salvation.
Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.Romans 4:6
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,Romans 4:11
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:Romans 4:13
For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.So zealotry for the Law is now not helpful without submission to the commands to repent and be reborn of water and the Spirit.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 08 2009,11:24) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 28 2009,12:24) There is several questions that you should ask yourself on this subject. The first question is “does God desire us to be righteous as he is righteous?“ The answer I find in scripture is that he does. The second question is “can God live a righteous life in our bodies as he did in Jesus’?” Again the answer I come up with is yes. The third question is “will he do it?” and the answer I receive from scripture is he will do it for those who believe His Son is the King of kings Lord of lords and so make Jesus Lord of their life. I say this because scripture clearly states those who live the spirit will not sin. It is true that to live by the spirit you have faith and your faith must be completely mature to live by the spirit at all times. It is that goal toward which any true servant of Jesus, and thus God who he serves, will sincerely strive. This is the hope for which I strive and for which I earnestly desire others to strive for.
Good luck with that, brother.I think it is messages like this one that sends simple believers reeling. I have had several emails from folks who have visited this site who struggle with sin. They love God, Jesus, the other guy too.
They love them all!! But they struggle. Silently. They are tormented with the idea that they have to be sinless in order to be “holy” like Jesus was holy.Another great example of how the bible has set believers up to fail. Why? Because it can't be done, people! You cannot live in a human body and be without sin.
Which leads me to wonder about Jesus, himself. If he received the baptism of sinners, you have to wonder why? If he prayed the “prayer”, you have to wonder why? Was it all for show and example? Perhaps….. Or perhaps Jesus wasn't completely human.
But I'll let that rest right here.
Greetings Mandy…..For we all fall short and for that reason we need a savior….any effort we make to change or repent is met with the grace the father so willingly gives and this was made possible through the sacrafice of his son…So in seeking the strenght that is needed to change we must call upon the father in Jesus' name…A mans works and rightousness is a stench in Gods nostrils without the humilty that would make us as little children….God knows when we are truly sorry and want to change….This is my faith…And I would hope that no one would ever be discouraged by what they hear in this forum as it is a classroom and God will give the wisdom to discern if asked….Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote Quite so.
So we are and have never been reliant on OT law for salvation.
I agree that the righteous have always lived by faith.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote So zealotry for the Law is now not helpful without submission to the commands to repent and be reborn of water and the Spirit.
Once again I agree though I would say that observing the Jewish traditions contained in the law does not make a difference one way or another.
Kerwin,
As I'm reading your post, I'm wondering if you are a new Christian?
Quote So your argument is that people are slaves to sin and will always remain that way despite scripture stating that Jesus died to set us free from sin and make us slaves to righteousness.
Yup.
If you live in a human body, your very nature is sinful.
Let's put it this way, I've never met a sinless Christian before…..have you? Quote Your goal should be to love Him as he desires to be loved. I will assume these people are speaking of what the hope they will do and not what they are doing.
Your assumption would be only half right. Yes, they love God and desire to serve him. No, the sin in their live is not what they are hoping they won't do…..it is what they are doing!!! Thus, the guilt and shame. You may remember that Paul struggled with this situation as well. The very thing he didn't want to do – that he did!Quote If you struggle with sin then you are being sent a message.
Indeed. And the message is – you are human.Quote The first thing you need to do is check your gospel because there is only one gospel that will set you free from sin. I assure you if you gospel teaches you that you cannot be set free from slavery to sin then it is a false doctrine. It does not mean it is the true doctrine if it does teach you that you can be set free from sin but that is a good first step to testing it. Another step is to remove those false tenets that sabotage your belief that you can be set free from sin.
With all due respect, this sounds like, “Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah….” to me. Do you realize how many brands of gospel there are? Each one claiming to be the way to God, and the right way to go about salvation? Even amongst believer's on this board there are many ways to salvation. So checking your doctrine helps you to not be sinful? Sorry, man, don't buy it (even for a dollar).Quote If you gospel is fine then you faith is the problem and that needs to be worked on.
Oh sure. Tell some believer who has loved God for over 20 years (but struggles with pronography, for instance) that they don't have enough faith and that is why they are still struggling with sin. Ya, that would go over like a lead balloon. You know why? People who struggle and fight, and agonize and fret over their sin probably have more faith than a preacher! They believe God can “cure” them, or “heal” them of their plight. When it doesn't happen – they just assume they are bad or unworthy. Hogwash.Quote If you do all of these with a sincere heart then I assure you God will set you free from sin for he loves you and will do as he promises.
So you also have to be sincere enough for sin to be lifted. Good grief man, what sinner isn't sincere when they beg God to remove some terrible thing from their lives that they struggle with? What believer, who loves God, wouldn't want to be without sin?Do you see how your diagnosis of the problem, and your subsequent cure for the problem doesn't work in real life? It only harms people who are trying……
If God removed sin from our lives we wouldn't need him anymore. We are bound over so that God can show us mercy and save us all. It's called salvation, my brother. And it's the GOAL of our faith. We haven't reached it yet. It's our hope……
Quote I assure you God has been generous to me and put some of my sins under my feed even though I have not yet obeyed Jesus' teachings. If He can do so much for me before I enter the new covenant how much more can He do for me when I have the Spirit to live by.
Well, I'm glad to hear it. God bless ya, bro. I don't mean to come down on you so heavy, it's just that these types of messages (that you can be free from sin if only…….. If only you have more faith. If only you're more sincere. If only you have the right brand of religion. If only….) really harms people in my opinion. But you press on and I'm glad that you don't struggle with sin anymore. It must be heaven on earth! Love,
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 09 2009,19:05) Kerwin, As I'm reading your post, I'm wondering if you are a new Christian?
Quote So your argument is that people are slaves to sin and will always remain that way despite scripture stating that Jesus died to set us free from sin and make us slaves to righteousness.
Yup.
If you live in a human body, your very nature is sinful.
Let's put it this way, I've never met a sinless Christian before…..have you? Quote Your goal should be to love Him as he desires to be loved. I will assume these people are speaking of what the hope they will do and not what they are doing.
Your assumption would be only half right. Yes, they love God and desire to serve him. No, the sin in their live is not what they are hoping they won't do…..it is what they are doing!!! Thus, the guilt and shame. You may remember that Paul struggled with this situation as well. The very thing he didn't want to do – that he did!Quote If you struggle with sin then you are being sent a message.
Indeed. And the message is – you are human.Quote The first thing you need to do is check your gospel because there is only one gospel that will set you free from sin. I assure you if you gospel teaches you that you cannot be set free from slavery to sin then it is a false doctrine. It does not mean it is the true doctrine if it does teach you that you can be set free from sin but that is a good first step to testing it. Another step is to remove those false tenets that sabotage your belief that you can be set free from sin.
With all due respect, this sounds like, “Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah….” to me. Do you realize how many brands of gospel there are? Each one claiming to be the way to God, and the right way to go about salvation? Even amongst believer's on this board there are many ways to salvation. So checking your doctrine helps you to not be sinful? Sorry, man, don't buy it (even for a dollar).Quote If you gospel is fine then you faith is the problem and that needs to be worked on.
Oh sure. Tell some believer who has loved God for over 20 years (but struggles with pronography, for instance) that they don't have enough faith and that is why they are still struggling with sin. Ya, that would go over like a lead balloon. You know why? People who struggle and fight, and agonize and fret over their sin probably have more faith than a preacher! They believe God can “cure” them, or “heal” them of their plight. When it doesn't happen – they just assume they are bad or unworthy. Hogwash.Quote If you do all of these with a sincere heart then I assure you God will set you free from sin for he loves you and will do as he promises.
So you also have to be sincere enough for sin to be lifted. Good grief man, what sinner isn't sincere when they beg God to remove some terrible thing from their lives that they struggle with? What believer, who loves God, wouldn't want to be without sin?Do you see how your diagnosis of the problem, and your subsequent cure for the problem doesn't work in real life? It only harms people who are trying……
If God removed sin from our lives we wouldn't need him anymore. We are bound over so that God can show us mercy and save us all. It's called salvation, my brother. And it's the GOAL of our faith. We haven't reached it yet. It's our hope……
Quote I assure you God has been generous to me and put some of my sins under my feed even though I have not yet obeyed Jesus' teachings. If He can do so much for me before I enter the new covenant how much more can He do for me when I have the Spirit to live by.
Well, I'm glad to hear it. God bless ya, bro. I don't mean to come down on you so heavy, it's just that these types of messages (that you can be free from sin if only…….. If only you have more faith. If only you're more sincere. If only you have the right brand of religion. If only….) really harms people in my opinion. But you press on and I'm glad that you don't struggle with sin anymore. It must be heaven on earth! Love,
Mandy
Greetings Mandy……we are of one mind on this issue….the constant reference to the exacting presentation of the written word denies it the life God intended it to have……God knew before He created us that we would all be sinners, and He did it anyway.
And He said it was “GOOD”.Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ Feb. 09 2009,18:29) God knew before He created us that we would all be sinners, and He did it anyway.
And He said it was “GOOD”.Tim
God did know that through Adam that the human race would be enslaved to sin but he also knew that through Jesus the Messiah we would be set free from sin and thus His creation of man was very good.That does not say that those who choose to continue to remain slaves to sin are pleasing in his sight.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 10 2009,00:46) That does not say that those who choose to continue to remain slaves to sin are pleasing in his sight.
BOO!
I'm sorry, but this message evokes anger in me!
Remember that we are talking about children of God who sin, and who are caught-up in sin – who don't want to be caught-up in sin. We are talking about Christians who struggle with sin.
Why do you think that those who endure to the end will receive the crown of life? Do you think those who are free from sin have to endure anything?
The whole message of those that continue to sin are not pleasing in God's sight, OR those who's faith is weak or their desire to not sin is not great enough makes me sick!! It isolates a whole bunch of believer's, sir. I dare say the majority of us. And if God created a sinful human race (because I didn't have a choice, I was born this way remember) and then says we are not pleasing because of it….well….that God can piss up a rope as far as I'm concerned. Because that would mean he has placed his loved ones in personal, emotional torment. With the desire to love him and please him, and with the equally driven desire to disobey him.
Talk to Paul, he knew. Paul struggled, I don't think he ever won that struggle. But he had faith and pressed on. Paul was not sinless. Niether can you hope to be, my brother. Your message brings bondage to many. Not the freedom you are hoping it will bring.
Instead, you should encourage those who are Christians but dealing with sin in their lives. Don't tell them they are not pleasing….because most any child is pleasing regardless of their faults…..tell them there is a Day coming when we will all be free of the reasons we cannot fully love our God now. There will be a Day when we will win the Victory and overcome. Because our brother before us has overcome!
Again, I've never met a sinless Christian….have you?
Love,
MandyNot3in1(Mandy) wrote:
Quote If you live in a human body, your very nature is sinful.
So you are a Gnostic since what you just said is a Gnostic teaching. Out of curiosity do you believe Satan has a human body? I also am curious about what you think of Jesus telling the Jewish people in John 8:31-36 when he states he will set them free from slavery to sin if they hold to his teachings. Do you believe Jesus is a liar?
Not3in1(Mandy) wrote:
Quote Your assumption would be only half right. Yes, they love God and desire to serve him. No, the sin in their live is not what they are hoping they won't do…..it is what they are doing!!! Thus, the guilt and shame.
You are giving the idea that the individuals you speak of love to sin and if that is the case I assure your they will indeed be subject to destruction and if they so love wickedness then they do not love God no matter what they claim. On the other hand if they want to get free of the snares Satan has entangled them in then there is a way and that way is through adhering to the true teachings of Jesus.
Not3in1(Mandy) wrote:
Quote You may remember that Paul struggled with this situation as well. The very thing he didn't want to do – that he did!
As he said he did struggle under the law as he was a slave to sin required to uphold the law by human effort but Jesus came along and freed him from slavery to sin thus upholding his obligation to the righteous requirements of the law.
Not3in1(Mandy) wrote:
Quote Indeed. And the message is – you are human.
The message is that you are adhering to the true gospel of Christ which sets you free from slavery to sin.
Jesus was human just as we are and so was tempted by sin but did not give into it because he chose to live by the Spirit which dwells in him and so it set him free from the law of sin and death. Those that believe in him also receive that Spirit to live by and that Spirit is what sets them free from slavery to sin as God is the One who does His righteous acts in their bodies.
Not3in1(Mandy) wrote:
Quote So checking your doctrine helps you to not be sinful? Sorry, man, don't buy it (even for a dollar).
Jesus only taught one doctrine and Satan has taught many false doctrines just as Jesus prophesied. If you choose not to believe him then that is on you. I myself will believe that Jesus is the Son of God and the promised Messiah.
Not3in1(Mandy) wrote:
Quote Oh sure. Tell some believer who has loved God for over 20 years (but struggles with pornography, for instance) that they don't have enough faith and that is why they are still struggling with sin. Ya, that would go over like a lead balloon.
It did not go over with the Jews very well either as they finally crucified Jesus. If you read that passage from John 8 I mentioned above you will see the Jews were not pleased and in fact picked up stones to stone him in verse 59. The bottom line is if you love sin you will not believe the truth just as it is written in John 3:19-20.
Not3in1(Mandy) wrote:
Quote They believe God can “cure” them, or “heal” them of their plight. When it doesn't happen – they just assume they are bad or unworthy.
They must be full of themselves because we are bad and unworthy as it certainly is not our worthiness that saves us. It is God’s mercy and compassion and you must trust in it and not surrender to Satan as the people you describe did.
Not3in1(Mandy) wrote:
Quote Good grief man, what sinner isn't sincere when they beg God to remove some terrible thing from their lives that they struggle with?
The one who does not persevere as did the widow with the unjust judge.
Not3in1(Mandy) wrote:
Quote Do you see how your diagnosis of the problem, and your subsequent cure for the problem doesn't work in real life? It only harms people who are trying……
If they are trying they are trying by human effort which is arrogant for God is the one who must do it and you must believe he will and can do it for you. All I see is you doing the devil’s work by keeping those that hope to be free bound to slavery to sin.
Not3in1(Mandy) wrote:
Quote If only….) really harms people in my opinion. But you press on and I'm glad that you don't struggle with sin anymore.
There is no harm in seeking God through faith instead of human effort. As I said I am not in the New Covenant and God has only put some sins under my feet at the present time. It is my hope that I will enter the New Covenant and all my sins will be put under my feet and I plan on persevering in that faith.
Hi KW,
You say
'There is no harm in seeking God through faith instead of human effort. As I said I am not in the New Covenant and God has only put some sins under my feet at the present time. It is my hope that I will enter the New Covenant and all my sins will be put under my feet and I plan on persevering in that faith'Why do you say you have yet to enter the covenant?
If you have yet to enter what holds you back?
All have sinned and we sin in unknown ways too.Job 13:23
” How many are my iniquities and sins?Make known to me my rebellion and my sin.Sinners are very welcome and usually very keen to shed their burden.
Can sins be put under the feet of the unsaved?
Does continuing to sin prove one is yet to enter?
If so why does 1Jn1 tell us otherwise?Kerwin……..I totally agree with Mandy's assessment of our arrogance. Your lack of understanding shows in nearly all your posts, You said Jesus was tempted as we are in every way, and the You went on to say, but He (CHOSE) to live by the Spirit that Dwelled in Him, fact is it was the Spirit He had (the fullness of it) that Keep Him from sinning, or have you forgot He said He could do nothing of Himself. You are exhibiting a typical Pharisaical attitude. Telling others what they need to do when you yourself cant do it. That is unless you are sinless, which i find that hard to believe. Paul plainly said He was a sinner and struggled with it, calling Himself a wretched Man, as long as you have your (BODY OF DEATH) you will struggle with sin. Why did Paul say with my Mind I serve the laws of GOD , but with flesh the law of sin and death. And why does for we HOPE for that righteousness to come , if we all ready have, why hope for it. And why did it say in REVELATIONS “for these loved not their lives unto DEATH> interesting I wonder why they didn't love their lives unto death , could it be because they still had the sin in their flesh and only when they shed the flesh could they come to true perfection.
You as well as some others here think by your so-called Free Will Choices you can attain to righteousness is simple a fallacy. Paul said when he would do good he found another Law in his members, that was waring against the law of his mind. And in another place He said “for to WILL is present with me” and this Will being influenced by His Flesh conflicted with the Spirit that was in Him. There is (ONLY ONE) that is good and that is God. WE strive for the High calling, that means we haven't reached it yet.
Condescending on people doesn't help them at all, it only puff your pride, but GOD resists the proud and give GRACE to the Humble.
What Mandy wrote is right kerwin………IMO
peace………………………………..gene
GB,
Wrong again.
Gal5
16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
The daily choice is clearly presented to the reborn sons here.
Walking is our part and the grace provided is sufficient
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