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I think I did. I said “Until such miracles can be produced in modern society, I will find no reason to believe them. That includes the Tanakh, yes.“
Thus such miracles were likely exaggerations or inserted stories to impress people into believing. After all, if someone can do such miracles, then they have to have power from G-d right?
If that is so then no one since the 100 CE has had power from G-d since there are no recorded miracles outside of the Jewish or Christian bible of the magnitude found within.
Who was the last person you healed or raised from the dead? When was the last time you called fire down from heaven? When have you ever turned a staff into a snake? When have you walked on water?
Parts of the OT are certainly suspect, but much less of the real Tanakh is. Your OT is translated with heavy Christian bias.
Here is what is untrue: cruelty by man attributed to G-d. Outlandish miracles with no real proof other than someone wrote about it. Silly dietary rules that only made sense in the time they were written (modern handling of food eliminates many of them). Blood sacrifice which was borrowed form other religions and adapted in. Silly rules about dress code and what is 'clean' and 'unclean'. Much of this is mere superstition but much of it was practical back when it was first practiced. Modern facilities and practices make such things no longer necessary.
Hi Tow,
So none of the OT is reliable but we have to see you to check?
I rather think they are sacred and you are not quite so.Well darn, here I was thinking you'd come to me for advice. You've ruined my day. Well, in reality you've really just ruined 5 secs of my day.
Since Jesus promised that his followers could do greater things than he did, where are all the Christians raising people from the dead?
Hi Tow,
Peter did.
36Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did.37And it came to pass in those days, that she was sick, and died: whom when they had washed, they laid her in an upper chamber.
38And forasmuch as Lydda was nigh to Joppa, and the disciples had heard that Peter was there, they sent unto him two men, desiring him that he would not delay to come to them.
39Then Peter arose and went with them. When he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber: and all the widows stood by him weeping, and shewing the coats and garments which Dorcas made, while she was with them.
40But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.
41And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.
If one was raised from the dead would you believe?
Hi Tow,
Elisha did too
26Run now, I pray thee, to meet her, and say unto her, Is it well with thee? is it well with thy husband? is it well with the child? And she answered, It is well:27And when she came to the man of God to the hill, she caught him by the feet: but Gehazi came near to thrust her away. And the man of God said, Let her alone; for her soul is vexed within her: and the LORD hath hid it from me, and hath not told me.
28Then she said, Did I desire a son of my lord? did I not say, Do not deceive me?
29Then he said to Gehazi, Gird up thy loins, and take my staff in thine hand, and go thy way: if thou meet any man, salute him not; and if any salute thee, answer him not again: and lay my staff upon the face of the child.
30And the mother of the child said, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. And he arose, and followed her.
31And Gehazi passed on before them, and laid the staff upon the face of the child; but there was neither voice, nor hearing. Wherefore he went again to meet him, and told him, saying, The child is not awaked.
32And when Elisha was come into the house, behold, the child was dead, and laid upon his bed.
33He went in therefore, and shut the door upon them twain, and prayed unto the LORD.
34And he went up, and lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands: and stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm.
35Then he returned, and walked in the house to and fro; and went up, and stretched himself upon him: and the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes.
36And he called Gehazi, and said, Call this Shunammite. So he called her. And when she was come in unto him, he said, Take up thy son.
37Then she went in, and fell at his feet, and bowed herself to the ground, and took up her son, and went out.
but I suppose we will have to clear with you that it was not a party trick.
Make sure the person was verfied as clinically dead by a doctor for at least 4 days and then have someone raise that person from the dead. Just like 'ol Lazarus.
You're proof is about Peter from your GT. Since I view the GT as fiction anyways, what have you proved? Is Peter the last true follower of Jesus then? Is that what you are saying?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 20 2007,15:51) Hi Tow,
Elisha did too
26Run now, I pray thee, to meet her, and say unto her, Is it well with thee? is it well with thy husband? is it well with the child? And she answered, It is well:27And when she came to the man of God to the hill, she caught him by the feet: but Gehazi came near to thrust her away. And the man of God said, Let her alone; for her soul is vexed within her: and the LORD hath hid it from me, and hath not told me.
28Then she said, Did I desire a son of my lord? did I not say, Do not deceive me?
29Then he said to Gehazi, Gird up thy loins, and take my staff in thine hand, and go thy way: if thou meet any man, salute him not; and if any salute thee, answer him not again: and lay my staff upon the face of the child.
30And the mother of the child said, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. And he arose, and followed her.
31And Gehazi passed on before them, and laid the staff upon the face of the child; but there was neither voice, nor hearing. Wherefore he went again to meet him, and told him, saying, The child is not awaked.
32And when Elisha was come into the house, behold, the child was dead, and laid upon his bed.
33He went in therefore, and shut the door upon them twain, and prayed unto the LORD.
34And he went up, and lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands: and stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm.
35Then he returned, and walked in the house to and fro; and went up, and stretched himself upon him: and the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes.
36And he called Gehazi, and said, Call this Shunammite. So he called her. And when she was come in unto him, he said, Take up thy son.
37Then she went in, and fell at his feet, and bowed herself to the ground, and took up her son, and went out.
but I suppose we will have to clear with you that it was not a party trick.
Looks like an early form of mouth-to-mouth resuscitation to me, partner.2Ki 4:34 And he went up, and lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands: and he stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm.
Hi Tow,
Boy did we need you to show the way.
Someone who denies both the truth of the OT and the NT and the Christ.
Good luck but you are on your own absolutelyQuote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 20 2007,15:53) Hi Tow,
So what of Elisha?
Another devilish lie in the OT?
As usual I can depend on Nick to put in words I never said. You're really good (and painfully obvious) at that.I never called such things “devilish lies”, so all reading this will know that it was Nick who said such a thing.
Regardless, as I just showed, it looks to have been a form of resuscitation. Plus, how can we be certain that the child was clinically dead?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 20 2007,15:56) Hi Tow,
Boy did we need you to show the way.
Someone who denies both the truth of the OT and the NT and the Christ.
Good luck but you are on your own absolutely
Well, someone needs to point to the errors of Christianity. So many people being duped. Its like medieval spam.Again, if you show me a person who has been clinically dead for 4 days being raised by a Christian perhaps I will rethink the validity of Jesus. Until then, his statement that his followers would do greater things than him is either shows (1) he lied or (2) there are no true followers or (3) Jesus wasn't what the GT said he was.
But I'm glad you beleive in both books without reservations. It is a painful reminder that you might need to get outside and stop believing in fantasy. And whatever you do, don't try Dungeons & Dragons because I don't know much further you might slip into obscurity.
Hi Tow,
Would it have to be a cardiologist?
When you start discarding scripture from both the new and the Old treasures then on what basis do you believe in God at all as our understandings draw from these sources.Sorry, maybe your understanding does but mine comes from personal everyday experience. After all, that is what you are reading in Tanakh: the experiences of others as they served G-d. Sometimes people's anger got the best of them and they lashed out but claimed G-d told them to do so. Its one of the biggest forms of human escapism, to blame our actions on someone else. If we can claim it was G-d then others might go along with it if they have similar beliefs. That is why peoples of all religions tend to hang out with those who have similar beliefs as them. How many Christians hang out with Muslims? How many unitarians hang out with Catholics? How many Karaite Jews hang out with Orthodox Jews?
Well, its either (1) no revealed religion (2) a religion revealed in a book that is 90% true or (3) a religion revealed in a book that only has truth when it was borrowed in context from the 90% true book.
“What's true in the new testament is not new, what's new is not true”
Hi Tow,
New compared to what?
You do not accept the OT so what is there to compare with?
Who said anything about religion?
God's definition of true religion is in James.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 21 2007,00:38) Hi Tow, New compared to what?
You do not accept the OT so what is there to compare with?
Who said anything about religion?
God's definition of true religion is in James.
Do you then visit orphans and widows in their affliction? I hope so or you are not of the true religion according to James.And no I do not accept your OT with its Christians translation bias. I do however accept Tanakh as the closest writings man has of the revealed nature of YHVH G-d. As statement any times, there are parts I don't accept because I see them as human bias.
Do you have a wife Nick? Do you like absolutely every thing she does or is? 100%? Never a cause to complain or never a conflict? I hope so because if there is even one thing you don't like about her you had best kick her to the curb. After all, that is the attitude you are taking towards what I am saying about the Tanakh. You're saying one must accept 100% of it or it is useless.
So I would request that you use that attitude in all of your life from this point on. Only accept those things in life that are 100% perfect. If you find one flaw, even the smallest, you must reject it.
Have fun living alone.
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