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Quote (Is 1:18 @ Dec. 27 2007,18:26) Quote (Son of Light @ Dec. 27 2007,18:02) In the Masoretic Text (MT), as it is translated in the KJV, the passage reads as follows: When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. For the LORD's [Yahweh's] portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.
However, it has long been known from the Septuagint, and more recently from the Dead Sea Scrolls, that the phrase “according to the number of the children of Israel” used to read “according to the number of the sons of God.”
In the RSV, which takes into account the confirming evidence from the Dead Sea Scrolls, the passage reads like this:
When the Most High [El Elyon] gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. For the LORD's [Yahweh's] portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance.
The significance of this variation is that in ancient times the term “sons of God” frequently referred to members of a divine assembly of gods. The ancient Hebrews believed in a divine council of deities headed by the supreme father-god El (also called Elohim or El Elyon), and they often referred to the members of this council as “the sons of God.”
There is considerable disagreement among scholars over the council's composition, but there is no serious question that a belief in a divine assembly of heavenly deities was an important doctrine in ancient Hebrew theology (Eissfeldt; Mullen; Hayman; Morgenstern; Hanson 39; Clifford; Ackerman; Ackroyd; Seaich 1983:9-23).
By changing “the sons of God” to “the children of Israel,” someone was deliberately trying to eliminate the reference to the divine council. As the changes also take place in the same chapter in vs. 43 which reads in the Masoretic:
43 Rejoice, O nations, with his people,
for he will avenge the blood of his servants;
he will take vengeance on his enemies
and make atonement for his land and people.LXX, Septuagint, DSS and New Testament witness of Hebrews 1:6:
43 “Rejoice with him, O heavens;
bow down to him, all gods,
for he avenges the blood of his children
and takes vengeance on his adversaries.
He repays those who hate him
and cleanses his people’s land.”The LXX and Dead Sea Scroll versions of Deuteronomy 32:8-9 portray Yahweh as separate from El and as a member of the divine assembly subordinate to Him.
As Niels Lemche says, “the Greek version apparently ranges Yahweh among the sons of the Most High, that is, treats him as a member of the pantheon of gods who are SUBORDINATE to the supreme God, El Elyon” (226, emphasis added).
According to Harvard University's Paul Hanson,
This verse no doubt preserves early Israel's view of her place within the family of nations. The high god “Elyon” originally apportioned the nations to the members of the divine assembly. . . . Israel was allotted to YahwehAs the RSV puts it, Israel was Yahweh's “allotted inheritance,” given (or “allotted”) to Him by His Father, El.
The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint prove that in the original Hebrew of Deuteronomy 32:8-9, Yahweh was portrayed as a member of the divine council under El. Therefore, those who subsequently tampered with the Hebrew text were probably Yahweh-only editors who wanted to erase the original distinction between El and Yahweh and to depict Yahweh as the one and only God.
And so I say (using NT scripture):
Colossians 2
18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions.John 8
44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.James 1
16Don't be deceived, my dear brothers. 17Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
Hardly any of this post is original…most of it is lifted from
here and some from here….
and your point?plagiarism
noun
1. a piece of writing that has been copied from someone else and is presented as being your own work
2. the act of plagiarizing; taking someone's words or ideas as if they were your ownQuote (Is 1:18 @ Dec. 27 2007,18:37) plagiarism noun
1. a piece of writing that has been copied from someone else and is presented as being your own work
2. the act of plagiarizing; taking someone's words or ideas as if they were your own
well sorry for not giving a source.I have many many many copied articles that I have added to saved on to my computer for the purpose of discussion with those in my family and friends. I don't sell anything nor claim authorship. I often forget what parts are mine or somebody elses. Like I said I don't try to sell or take credit for anything, just sharing information.
I am concerned about truth. PERIOD.
Though, I can see how this can disparage ones image of character. So I apologize for not properly sourcing.
However, that being said. What is your point?
A smoke screen not to have to deal with the information, and instead attack the character of the poster?
Gen 14:22 And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I will stretch out my hand to the Lord the most high God, who made the heaven and the earth,
Job 31:28 let this also then be reckoned to me as the greatest iniquity: for I should have lied against the Lord Most High.
Psa 7:17 I will give thanks to the Lord according to his righteousness; I will sing to the name of the Lord most high.
Psa 13:6 (12:6) I will sing to the Lord who has dealt bountifully with me, and I will sing psalms to the name of the Lord most high.
Psa 47:2 (46:2) For the Lord most high is terrible; he is a great king over all the earth.
Psa 83:18 (82:18) And let them know that thy name is Lord; that thou alone art Most High over all the earth.
Psa 91:9 (90:9) For thou, O Lord, art my hope: thou, my soul, hast made the Most High thy refuge.
Psa 92:1 (91:1) A Psalm of a Song for the Sabbath-day. It is a good thing to give thanks to the Lord, and to sing praises to thy name, O thou Most High;
Psa 92:8 (91:8) But thou, O Lord, art most high for ever.
Psa 97:9 (96:9) For thou art Lord most high over all the earth; thou art greatly exalted above all gods.
Mic 6:6 Wherewithal shall I reach the Lord, and lay hold of my God most high? shall I reach him by whole-burnt-offerings, by calves of a year old?
=======================================All of this is from the LXX. Each instance of 'Lord' above is YHVH in the Masoretic. You're theory has been reduced to so much dung.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 26 2007,19:33) Hi Tow,
As usual the NT fills out the message of the OT.
You wiull always lack if you deny it.You deny the OT because you try to replace Israel or at least share with them yet you do not follow Torah. I am not that haughty and prideful. I don't call this lacking, I call it knowing my place.
Quote Is SOL right?
Colossians 2:18
Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Confused Nick? My G-d will still be YHVH whatever he (or you) believe, now you must start on the journey to figure out who your god is.Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 27 2007,21:05) Gen 14:22 And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I will stretch out my hand to the Lord the most high God, who made the heaven and the earth, Job 31:28 let this also then be reckoned to me as the greatest iniquity: for I should have lied against the Lord Most High.
Psa 7:17 I will give thanks to the Lord according to his righteousness; I will sing to the name of the Lord most high.
Psa 13:6 (12:6) I will sing to the Lord who has dealt bountifully with me, and I will sing psalms to the name of the Lord most high.
Psa 47:2 (46:2) For the Lord most high is terrible; he is a great king over all the earth.
Psa 83:18 (82:18) And let them know that thy name is Lord; that thou alone art Most High over all the earth.
Psa 91:9 (90:9) For thou, O Lord, art my hope: thou, my soul, hast made the Most High thy refuge.
Psa 92:1 (91:1) A Psalm of a Song for the Sabbath-day. It is a good thing to give thanks to the Lord, and to sing praises to thy name, O thou Most High;
Psa 92:8 (91:8) But thou, O Lord, art most high for ever.
Psa 97:9 (96:9) For thou art Lord most high over all the earth; thou art greatly exalted above all gods.
Mic 6:6 Wherewithal shall I reach the Lord, and lay hold of my God most high? shall I reach him by whole-burnt-offerings, by calves of a year old?
=======================================All of this is from the LXX. Each instance of 'Lord' above is YHVH in the Masoretic. You're theory has been reduced to so much dung.
Yes I am aware of the alterations to the Old Testament as well as the New Testament.It's not “my” theory.
It's called the documentary hypothosis and it is the leading view among biblical scholars.
Which I might add also appears to be the view of Early Christians as well.
“El is our God, this angel Jehovah is just a son of the Most High and he can't come in and try and take his place. He can't come in to the holy of holies and declare himself to be God. All the angels are corrupt. Evil principalities and Powers who have nothing but burdened us, lead us to war and cruely punished us at every turn. But wait Jesus has come to set us Free.”
John 8
44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
The early proto-catholic Christians took Jesus a Nazarene Essene Master who claimed to be a Son of the Most High and that we could be also, and they made him a instead a Son of Jehovah.
They also made Paul the primary apostle even though he had a “different” theology than the Jerusalem church under James. Was Paul an evil heretic (I don't know, though I think he was probably sincere even if wrong) but it appears he combined Roman Mystery religions with the Nazarene Essene movement.
The early Church then combined many various texts to try and match their “oral” tradition and even crafted some texts themselves. The Catholic Church merged Nazarene Essene, Ebionite, Pauline Christianity, Gnosticism and Pharisee Judaism into one religion under the guiding light of Platonism.
Please read up about the Essenes (in particular the Nazarene Essenes), the ebionites and the gnostics. These 3 suppressed and far earlier forms of Christianity.
SOL Are you saying that their are two Gods in the bible? One an angel~Jehovah~ and the other the Most High~real God~.
Does God the Most high get angry? Or is HE ~S L O W~ to anger.
We are under a much better covenant. We have the forgiveness of sin and not just a cover up.
In the OT God deals with a hard headed stiff necked people who always disobeyed. Is God just to allow sin to flourish, those who never repenting but “wanting” to kill and every thing else under the sun that is Terrible sin.
After Jesus paid our debt and we accept His Sacrifice then we have a new beginning “Behold all things are new”. Anyone who has been born again has had that experience.
So now God deals with His children and with the LOVE of a Father. So YES it does appear that their are two Gods one of wrath and one of Love. Is their a Righteous Anger?
The first born Son of God will never equal the Father. And we will NEVER equal the Son. Can you be as GOD? We can only be what God calls us to be~and that's all~!
Can everyone be the boss? I dare say that anyone who thinks they are equal with God won't be allowed in the New Kingdom where God will be all in all.
God bless and help you,
Ken
Quote (Son of Light @ Dec. 27 2007,07:49) Which I might add also appears to be the view of Early Christians as well. “El is our God, this angel Jehovah is just a son of the Most High and he can't come in and try and take his place. He can't come in to the holy of holies and declare himself to be God. All the angels are corrupt. Evil principalities and Powers who have nothing but burdened us, lead us to war and cruely punished us at every turn. But wait Jesus has come to set us Free.”
John 8
44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
The early proto-catholic Christians took Jesus a Nazarene Essene Master who claimed to be a Son of the Most High and that we could be also, and they made him a instead a Son of Jehovah.
They also made Paul the primary apostle even though he had a “different” theology than the Jerusalem church under James. Was Paul an evil heretic (I don't know, though I think he was probably sincere even if wrong) but it appears he combined Roman Mystery religions with the Nazarene Essene movement.
The early Church then combined many various texts to try and match their “oral” tradition and even crafted some texts themselves. The Catholic Church merged Nazarene Essene, Ebionite, Pauline Christianity, Gnosticism and Pharisee Judaism into one religion under the guiding light of Platonism.
Please read up about the Essenes (in particular the Nazarene Essenes), the ebionites and the gnostics. These 3 suppressed and far earlier forms of Christianity.
Ah, and posts like this further reduce the validity of the Christian GT. I must say I agree with you about the pagan Paul
.“All the angels are corrupt” which I guess extends to the ones in Revelation, the one who told Mary she was having the son of a god, the ones at the tomb, etc. Very interesting indeed.
Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 28 2007,01:35) “All the angels are corrupt” which I guess extends to the ones in Revelation, the one who told Mary she was having the son of a god, the ones at the tomb, etc. Very interesting indeed.
The angels who were given authority over the nations. Not ALL angels.I am not sure if you took me literally or are just trying to twist words. You accuse Nick of doing this yet it seems you do it yourself. Maybe, you took me literally, I am not sure.
The angels you mention from the gospels and revelation. Are they Myth? Perhaps, but that is hardly my point. I am not trying to support orthodox christianity, so these points don't affect me much.
Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 27 2007,21:09) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 26 2007,19:33) Hi Tow,
As usual the NT fills out the message of the OT.
You wiull always lack if you deny it.You deny the OT because you try to replace Israel or at least share with them yet you do not follow Torah. I am not that haughty and prideful. I don't call this lacking, I call it knowing my place.
Quote Is SOL right?
Colossians 2:18
Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Confused Nick? My G-d will still be YHVH whatever he (or you) believe, now you must start on the journey to figure out who your god is.
Hi Tow,
You do not follow the Tanakh.
You do not even believe much of it.
So you are in no position of strength to lead others.You need some stronger form of foundation other than your own exalted opinions.
Hi SOL,
You are able to judge Paul who said Christ was in him and who did marvellous works in that anointing? Then how has God revealed that you are greater than Paul? Your own pretty words only expose your doubts and insecurities and your wandering from the path of truth into nonsense.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 28 2007,05:48) Hi SOL,
You are able to judge Paul who said Christ was in him and who did marvellous works in that anointing? Then how has God revealed that you are greater than Paul? Your own pretty words only expose your doubts and insecurities and your wandering from the path of truth into nonsense.
I follow the evidence. Paul taught things like “EVERYONE who follows the law has made Christ pointless”. It is obvious James, Peter and John disagreed. Perhaps, they made exceptions for the gentiles but Paul WAS pushing this doctrine even on the Jews.Remember James sending Paul to take a vow to proove he wasn't teaching against the Law? Yet, sure enough we have him teaching against the Law in his epistles and not just to gentiles. We have evidence from archeology and ebionite writings that proclame Paul as an apostate.
Now the Law the Nazarenes Essenes followed is not the same as the Mosaic Law but that is a different story all together. The Nazerenes did not believe in animal sacrifice and many of the Laws found in the Pentatuech. They rejected the Torah as corrupted.
To believe what you believe I would have to lie to myself about the evidence.
Tell me what leads you to believe in the inerrancy of scripture? What is it that informs you that the Catholics of the 3rd and 4th century got it right when they assembled the canon? Why are you trusting them? Archeology and textual criticism tells a different story.
Show me chapter and verse that says, “One day an official canon will exist that is completely inerrant and true and will be bound together in a book”.
Rather I see, “The letter kills but the spirit gives life”.
Quote (Son of Light @ Dec. 27 2007,12:42) Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 28 2007,01:35) “All the angels are corrupt” which I guess extends to the ones in Revelation, the one who told Mary she was having the son of a god, the ones at the tomb, etc. Very interesting indeed.
The angels who were given authority over the nations. Not ALL angels.I am not sure if you took me literally or are just trying to twist words. You accuse Nick of doing this yet it seems you do it yourself. Maybe, you took me literally, I am not sure.
The angels you mention from the gospels and revelation. Are they Myth? Perhaps, but that is hardly my point. I am not trying to support orthodox christianity, so these points don't affect me much.
No, weren't those words quoted from another source? The phrase said ALL angels are corrupt. I'm not twisting anything, just trying to understand the mindset of people who would write suchQuote (Towshab @ Dec. 28 2007,10:17) Quote (Son of Light @ Dec. 27 2007,12:42) Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 28 2007,01:35) “All the angels are corrupt” which I guess extends to the ones in Revelation, the one who told Mary she was having the son of a god, the ones at the tomb, etc. Very interesting indeed.
The angels who were given authority over the nations. Not ALL angels.I am not sure if you took me literally or are just trying to twist words. You accuse Nick of doing this yet it seems you do it yourself. Maybe, you took me literally, I am not sure.
The angels you mention from the gospels and revelation. Are they Myth? Perhaps, but that is hardly my point. I am not trying to support orthodox christianity, so these points don't affect me much.
No, weren't those words quoted from another source? The phrase said ALL angels are corrupt. I'm not twisting anything, just trying to understand the mindset of people who would write such
No my wordsQuote (Towshab @ Dec. 28 2007,10:43) So how do you know which angels were corrupt?
Well for starters all the sons of the Most High who inherited the Nations and all the sons who left their first estate who are now bound in gloomy chains of darkness.Basically, good angels only come to bring messages on behalf of the Most High or to carry out his will. They have no authority over earth and only intercede when instructed.
Every angel who DOES have authority over the earth is corrupt and evil. Jesus came to set us free from their Yoke, the yoke of the principalities and powers. This includes the Jehovah elohim (or the Jehovah gods).
You will know both men and angels by their fruit.
James 1
17Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
James 3
13Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.
17But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.Matthew
16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
Compare this example:
2 Kings 1
9 Then he sent to Elijah a captain with his company of fifty men. The captain went up to Elijah, who was sitting on the top of a hill, and said to him, “Man of God, the king says, 'Come down!' ”
10 Elijah answered the captain, “If I am a man of God, may fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty men!” Then fire fell from heaven and consumed the captain and his men.
Luke 9
54And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
55But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
56For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.
What is Jesus saying here about the spirit “behind” the murders in 2 Kings? Clearly he is saying it is a “different” spirit what he represents.
This is a different spirit that murders at Elijah's request, not the Most High God.
John the Baptist spoke these words to the Jews of his day, people who believed in Jehovah;
“No one has ever seen God”.
Yet the OT claims that Moses did see Jehovah “face to face!” (Exodus 33:11)
Jesus tells us that John spoke the Truth. (John 5:32-33).
No one has ever seen God Most High, but Moses did see Jehovah “face to face”. Ergo, Jehovah is not the Most High God!
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