Jesus or Satan?

Participant

Hi Tow,
I am not as intolerant as my Father God is about abuse of His Word.
You would be far wiser to keep your opinionated ideas to yourself .
It is crazy to risk His wrath by sharing widely such folly.

December 26, 2007 at 1:40 pm#160334

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 25 2007,18:37)

Hi Tow,
If you have no rightoeusness at all but remain in your sin how can you consider approaching God?

Because G-d knows me and I know him. King David often made poor decisions but then repented. I do not claim righteousness because I let my G-d be the judge of that, I am not that haughty. Only a prideful man claims he is righteous.

December 26, 2007 at 1:45 pm#160335

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Dec. 25 2007,18:40)

Hi Tow:

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Quote (942767 @ Dec. 25 2007,16:38)
Hi Tow:

You say:

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There is a belief 'the world to come'. Judaism maintains that the righteous of all nations have a place in the world to come. Those who die will be resurrected when the true King Messiah comes and the world to come ('olam haba') will be here on the earth.

What determines whether or not one is righteous?

G-d.

I didn't say who. I said “what” determines whether or not one is righteous.

Our actions before G-d: how we treat our fellow man, His earth, and our G-d.

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You say:

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Are you one of the righeous?

I do not claim as much but I do what I can to honor G-d and look out for my fellow man. I constantly examine my life for faults that I prayerfully look to G-d to help me to change.

That is good that you seeking God's help to change. You must then be admitting that you are a sinner?

Who isn't?

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You say:

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When the Messiah that await comes will he be a warriour like David. Will he bring peace to all nations through war or just how will he accomplish this?

That is not entirely clear in Tanakh because the focus is on peace. We just know that G-d's chosen will be gathered back to Jerusalem and that all people will turn to them as spiritual guides.

It seems then that the chosen ones are the important ones here in achieving the peace. What is the purpose of the Messiah that you await. War has not brought peace in the world to date(Just look at what is happening with the Israeli, Palestinian conflict. One strikes, and the other retaliates etc. It is a never ending cycle) and through war peace will never be attained.

Like I said, there is not much to be read about any war that will take place when King Messiah comes but peace and an ingathering. Your book of Revelation is full of war and devastation.

December 26, 2007 at 2:04 pm#160336

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Dec. 25 2007,19:08)

Hi Tow:

You say:

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Yes, but this was not the fall of mankind. G-d created us with a free will. What happened to Adam and Even is an example of choosing wrong over right. It did not lead to any other fall except their very own. The Tanakh is very precise that each person is responsible for his/her own decisions.

I agree with you on this. I don't adhere to the doctrine of “orginal sin”.

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Then there was king David through whom the promised Messiah was to come, and king Solomon who built the temple. And then there was the division of the Nation of Israel, the ten tribes, and Judah and Benjamin, and then the Babylonian captivity, and then the deliverance of the remnant of the Nation of Israel from the Babylonian captivity and during this time period there was no King of the throne of David until Jesus the promised Messiah who gave is life as a sacrifice for the sins of the world, the sins of those who were striving to obey God prior to his coming, and those who come to God by faith with a repentant heart through him since his coming, and he is now at the right hand of God and will reign for ever more, and he will come to judge the living and the dead.

You were doing pretty good until this but i knew it was coming. Jesus did not have the lineage and what was given was through a cursed bloodline. Plus, he was never anointed as king, and was never accepted as king of Israel. The only person who ever acknowledge kingship about hims was Pilate and he did it in a mocking gesture to show the fate of those who would be king under Roman rule. Death by crucifixion.

God has accepted him as King and High Priest. Is that sufficient?

The only 'proof' you have of this is the book I believe is mostly fiction. Jews would say the same thing about the GT. So I do not accept that my G-d has accepted Jesus as any king or any kind of priest.

But by this answer, you seem to be agreeing with me that Jesus does not match the qualifications for the King Messiah found in Tanakh. So why do Christians try to say he is?

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You say:

To whom does the following Psalm refer?

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Psalm 110

1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. 2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. 3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. 4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath. 6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many F324 countries. 7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.

Very simple: it opens with “A Psalm of David”. This is about King David. Beyond that, Psalms are songs of praise and sometimes laments about retribution. They are not prophetic. Psalm 110 is a song of praise for what G-d has done and will continue to do for His chosen people.

I'm afraid you are a victim of the false belief that if the GT quotes it, it must be prophecy. What has happened is that the GT writers took the Tanakh and picked passages out of it and inserted them into Jesus' life. Most of the passages are not prophetic in nature. The writers were smart enough to know that they could not place Jesus in the actual messianic prophecies because they know that the Jews would certainly see that lie for what it was. Yet they tried to insert enough Tanakh into the Jesus story to connect Jesus with YHVH. Where they really messed up is inserting pagan mythologies as well in an effort to appeal to the pagans around them. The package was the monotheistic G-d with paganism. Obviously pagans were not ready for monotheism and that is why they formulated the trinity doctrine.

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Again, the spirit within you is supposedly also in 2.1 billion other people. Yet this same spirit has led to thousands of different denominations when your GT says that Jesus' followers would all be one as he and his father were one. So by saying that Christians, having the same spirit, are not one, you are implying that the relationship that Jesus had with his father was unsure, splintered, and confused.

This has happened because Christians have failed to discuss their differences. Instead when one had an understanding that differed from others he went and formed his own denomination. And granted, this does not look good for Christianity. Jesus in John 17 prayed that we would be “one”, and I do believe that we will be “one”. The 144,000 in the book of Revelation are those who have not been defiled by false doctrine and it is through them that the Christian church will be brought into unity and maturity, and then the Lord will come for the church.

Yet you expect people to accept that this spirit within you will guide those who do not believe in Jesus, if they accept him, to an understanding when it is quite obvious to where it leads: millions of different directions.

You're right, that looks bad. Very, very bad.

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I could also go out and form my own denomination, but I don't because I am awaiting the anointing that God has promised. It is through that anointing that God will bring the church into unity.

When you say 'the church' I assume you mean your own local congregation?

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This denomination says I have the truth, and that denomination says I have the truth and you say you have the truth, but what matters is what God says is the truth, and what he confirms as such.

Ah, but who but G-d knows what that is?

December 26, 2007 at 2:09 pm#160337

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 25 2007,22:47)

Hi Tow,
Do you rely hopefully on the mercy of God?

Do you not? Oh, that's right you have you're god-man middleman to stand in for you and take on your sinful life so you can feel free to live as you so desire.

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It is written but only towards the merciful.
Those who mock Him and His Son and do not respect His works and His teachings might be pushing it.

I do not mock G-d nor do I mock His son, Israel. Jesus is not YHVH's son any more than any other human who walked the earth.

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Men going to heaven?
We are promised to inherit the earth.

Well at least you've got something right. Tanakh does not support the idea of men going to heaven either.

December 26, 2007 at 2:14 pm#160338

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 25 2007,23:01)

G-d's word comes from Him directly, it is not written by men. G-d's words were also written on stone tablets. Tanakh is the record of mankind to the Jews, not the unadulterated words of YHVH G-d.

The GT is not even close. It is a hodgepodge of Judaism mixed with a plethora of pagan mystery cult practices.

December 26, 2007 at 6:29 pm#160332

Participant

Hi Tow,
So no words of God remain for men.
Those written by angels on stone tablets are gone and you have no faith they or anything else was faithfully replicated.
Your god is so small.

December 26, 2007 at 7:23 pm#160333

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 27 2007,05:29)

Hi Tow,
So no words of God remain for men.
Those written by angels on stone tablets are gone and you have no faith they or anything else was faithfully replicated.
Your god is so small.

Nick,

Tow's god is one of those angels that gave the Law.

Unfortunately, you also attribute some of the actions and words of these angels as being that of the Most High.

Only good things come from the Most High. The Most High is Love. Only things that resemble 1 Corinthians 13 come from the Most High. Good and Bad do not come from the same fountain nor is good and bad fruit from the same tree.

December 26, 2007 at 8:23 pm#160339

Participant

Hi SOL,
The word of God is sacred and true but remains under attack by those who do not fear the true Author.

December 26, 2007 at 10:48 pm#160340

kenrch

Participant

Quote (Son of Light @ Dec. 27 2007,06:23)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 27 2007,05:29)

Hi Tow,
So no words of God remain for men.
Those written by angels on stone tablets are gone and you have no faith they or anything else was faithfully replicated.
Your god is so small.

Nick,

Tow's god is one of those angels that gave the Law.

Unfortunately, you also attribute some of the actions and words of these angels as being that of the Most High.

Book of Enoch, right?

December 27, 2007 at 1:03 am#160341

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 26 2007,12:29)

Hi Tow,
So no words of God remain for men.

Yes they do. You must prayerfully sift the weavils out of the flour.

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Those written by angels on stone tablets are gone and you have no faith they or anything else was faithfully replicated.

Angels? I thought you knew scripture? It was G-d who wrote on stone, not angels. You show you ignorance.

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Your god is so small.

At this point your god is B&W words, my G-d is living and real.

December 27, 2007 at 1:33 am#160342

Participant

Hi Tow,
As usual the NT fills out the message of the OT.
You wiull always lack if you deny it.

Acts 7:53
Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
Galatians 3:19
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Hebrews 2:2
For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

Is SOL right?
Colossians 2:18
Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

December 27, 2007 at 2:52 am#160343

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 27 2007,12:33)

Hi Tow,
As usual the NT fills out the message of the OT.
You wiull always lack if you deny it.

This is Key Nick, look back into history and realize the early Christians viewed the god of the Jews as one of these angels.

The Most High is above him. Melchizedek served him, Abraham served Jehovah.

All the angels (principalities and powers) are corrupt.

The early proto-orthodox (early Catholic) church won the battle of dominant view by force and suppression.

YHWH is not God Most High.

Deuteronomy 32:8-9

8When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
9But the YHVH's portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.

This does not need the New Testament to clarify the issue here. The Old Testament does itself, though like the New has many many alteration and interpolations.

December 27, 2007 at 2:59 am#160344

Participant

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 27 2007,09:48)

Quote (Son of Light @ Dec. 27 2007,06:23)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 27 2007,05:29)

Hi Tow,
So no words of God remain for men.
Those written by angels on stone tablets are gone and you have no faith they or anything else was faithfully replicated.
Your god is so small.

Nick,

Tow's god is one of those angels that gave the Law.

Unfortunately, you also attribute some of the actions and words of these angels as being that of the Most High.

Book of Enoch, right?

The Bible, actually.

December 27, 2007 at 5:04 am#160345

Participant

Quote (Son of Light @ Dec. 27 2007,13:52)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 27 2007,12:33)

Hi Tow,
As usual the NT fills out the message of the OT.
You wiull always lack if you deny it.

This is Key Nick, look back into history and realize the early Christians viewed the god of the Jews as one of these angels.

The Most High is above him. Melchizedek served him, Abraham served Jehovah.

All the angels (principalities and powers) are corrupt.

The early proto-orthodox (early Catholic) church won the battle of dominant view by force and suppression.

YHWH is not God Most High.

Deuteronomy 32:8-9

This does not need the New Testament to clarify the issue here. The Old Testament does itself, though like the New has many many alteration and interpolations.

Hi Sol,
The usage you quote is parallel. God divided the nations according to their numbers but reserved the Jews as His sons, His chosen people.

December 27, 2007 at 6:38 am#160346

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 27 2007,16:04)

Quote (Son of Light @ Dec. 27 2007,13:52)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 27 2007,12:33)

Hi Tow,
As usual the NT fills out the message of the OT.
You wiull always lack if you deny it.

This is Key Nick, look back into history and realize the early Christians viewed the god of the Jews as one of these angels.

The Most High is above him. Melchizedek served him, Abraham served Jehovah.

All the angels (principalities and powers) are corrupt.

The early proto-orthodox (early Catholic) church won the battle of dominant view by force and suppression.

YHWH is not God Most High.

Deuteronomy 32:8-9

This does not need the New Testament to clarify the issue here. The Old Testament does itself, though like the New has many many alteration and interpolations.

Hi Sol,
The usage you quote is parallel. God divided the nations according to their numbers but reserved the Jews as His sons, His chosen people.

Yes that is one of the “cover up” interpretations.

December 27, 2007 at 7:02 am#160347

Participant

In the Masoretic Text (MT), as it is translated in the KJV, the passage reads as follows:

When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. For the LORD's [Yahweh's] portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.

However, it has long been known from the Septuagint, and more recently from the Dead Sea Scrolls, that the phrase “according to the number of the children of Israel” used to read “according to the number of the sons of God.”

In the RSV, which takes into account the confirming evidence from the Dead Sea Scrolls, the passage reads like this:

When the Most High [El Elyon] gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. For the LORD's [Yahweh's] portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance.

The significance of this variation is that in ancient times the term “sons of God” frequently referred to members of a divine assembly of gods. The ancient Hebrews believed in a divine council of deities headed by the supreme father-god El (also called Elohim or El Elyon), and they often referred to the members of this council as “the sons of God.”

There is considerable disagreement among scholars over the council's composition, but there is no serious question that a belief in a divine assembly of heavenly deities was an important doctrine in ancient Hebrew theology (Eissfeldt; Mullen; Hayman; Morgenstern; Hanson 39; Clifford; Ackerman; Ackroyd; Seaich 1983:9-23).

By changing “the sons of God” to “the children of Israel,” someone was deliberately trying to eliminate the reference to the divine council. As the changes also take place in the same chapter in vs. 43 which reads in the Masoretic:

43 Rejoice, O nations, with his people,
for he will avenge the blood of his servants;
he will take vengeance on his enemies
and make atonement for his land and people.

LXX, Septuagint, DSS and New Testament witness of Hebrews 1:6:

43 “Rejoice with him, O heavens;
bow down to him, all gods,
for he avenges the blood of his children
and takes vengeance on his adversaries.
He repays those who hate him
and cleanses his people’s land.”

The LXX and Dead Sea Scroll versions of Deuteronomy 32:8-9 portray Yahweh as separate from El and as a member of the divine assembly subordinate to Him.

As Niels Lemche says, “the Greek version apparently ranges Yahweh among the sons of the Most High, that is, treats him as a member of the pantheon of gods who are SUBORDINATE to the supreme God, El Elyon” (226, emphasis added).

According to Harvard University's Paul Hanson,
This verse no doubt preserves early Israel's view of her place within the family of nations. The high god “Elyon” originally apportioned the nations to the members of the divine assembly. . . . Israel was allotted to Yahweh

As the RSV puts it, Israel was Yahweh's “allotted inheritance,” given (or “allotted”) to Him by His Father, El.

The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint prove that in the original Hebrew of Deuteronomy 32:8-9, Yahweh was portrayed as a member of the divine council under El. Therefore, those who subsequently tampered with the Hebrew text were probably Yahweh-only editors who wanted to erase the original distinction between El and Yahweh and to depict Yahweh as the one and only God.

And so I say (using NT scripture):

Colossians 2
18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions.

John 8
44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

James 1
16Don't be deceived, my dear brothers. 17Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

December 27, 2007 at 7:26 am#160348

Is 1:18

Participant

Quote (Son of Light @ Dec. 27 2007,18:02)

In the Masoretic Text (MT), as it is translated in the KJV, the passage reads as follows:

In the RSV, which takes into account the confirming evidence from the Dead Sea Scrolls, the passage reads like this:

43 Rejoice, O nations, with his people,
for he will avenge the blood of his servants;
he will take vengeance on his enemies
and make atonement for his land and people.

LXX, Septuagint, DSS and New Testament witness of Hebrews 1:6:

The LXX and Dead Sea Scroll versions of Deuteronomy 32:8-9 portray Yahweh as separate from El and as a member of the divine assembly subordinate to Him.

As the RSV puts it, Israel was Yahweh's “allotted inheritance,” given (or “allotted”) to Him by His Father, El.

And so I say (using NT scripture):

James 1
16Don't be deceived, my dear brothers. 17Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Hardly any of this post is original…most of it is lifted from
here and some from here….

December 27, 2007 at 7:30 am#160349