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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 10 2008,07:36) Hi Stu,
All the evidence you need will be given to you after you die.
That is wishful thinking on your part. If you think that there will be some kind of celestial justice and that non-believers have some pretty testing lessons to come, then I'm afraid that says more about your attitude to your fellow humans that mine. I place no judgement on your actions at all, other than challenging some of the absurd fundamentalist dogmas you are so keen on, or ideas that have caused harm. You would like to see my entire existence judged in your favour. I find that attitude hard to square with the Jesus concept (as he would seem to be with Paul removed).Stuart
Quote (Mandy @ Mar. 10 2008,15:40) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 09 2008,08:42) Quote (Mandy @ Mar. 09 2008,07:41) 94, Thanks for clarifying. Maybe this “end” will happen in April?
Hi Mandy:We must be ready at all times. No man knows the day or the hour, but the signs of the times indicate that the Lord will come soon.
It is wonderful to know that my sins are forgiven.
I love you and desire the very best that God has to offer.
God Bless
Thank, brother. You are so genuine and I feel your love and concern for me. I've also felt the prayers of those who have been praying for me lately.There are so many doctrines out there, that is where I have become so disheartened.
Just look here on this thread alone we have David (a sold-out JW who loves God and is convinced of his dogma; there is Nick who is equally convinced; and other's who hold various beliefs who also think they have the “truth” while other's are misled). Deep breath…….
Still, God's precious holy Spirit has a deposit paid on my soul and I feel that I am His. Sometimes I think that simple faith is enough – whether I become a JW, Catholic, Trinitarian, Unitarian or a Librarian.
Can't you just be 'Mandy'? I'm just 'Stuart'!Stuart
But I had such high hopes of studying the Librarian sciences….
Stu, I am just “me”. But there is a desire to belong to a group. Even you have a group that you identify with, I'm sure? It's really not a matter of adopting a label, per se. It's about having a core of beliefs that other's share and confirm; it's about fellowship, ice cream socials and editing rights!
For me, it's about defining what I know and what I have come to believe. Honestly, I've given up the notion that I can identify with any of the religious groups out there. That is why I was joking regarding being a Trinitarian, Unitarian or Librarian. But it does “feel good” to belong. And I'm beginning to think it really doesn't matter which group you belong to because they all have truth.
Quote And I'm beginning to think it really doesn't matter which group you belong to because they all have truth. –mandy
Well they all have “some” truth, and some have more truth than others, and some have very little truth, and then, there's the satan worshippers.
Quote we have David (a sold-out JW who loves God and is convinced of his dogma; there is Nick who is equally convinced; But when two things are diametrically opposed in thought, (Nick believes God burns people; I believe he doesn't) one must be wrong, not true.
Some teach that Jesus is the Messiah. Either he is the messiah, or the whole thing is a lie. They cannot both be true.
Either God is a trinity or the trinity is a God dishonoring belief. They cannot both be true.
Either God condones homosexuallity, or he doesn't. Both can't be true.
Sure, there's the “don't lie, don't steal” that everyone Hindues, buddhists, etc teaches. Yes, everyone has some truth.
2 Cor. 11:14, 15: “Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness.” (Here we are cautioned that not everything that originates with Satan may appear hideous. One of his chief methods of deceiving mankind has been false religion of all kinds, to some of which he gives a righteous appearance.)
2 Tim. 3:2, 5: “Men will be . . . having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away.” (Regardless of their outward professions of love for God, if those with whom you worship do not sincerely apply his Word in their own lives, the Bible urges you to break off such association.)
Quote (david @ Mar. 10 2008,18:13) cAN'T go wrong with becoming a librarian.
I don't know… I've met some librarians that make John Hagee's evangelism look like disinterested stamp collecting!Stuart
Quote (Mandy @ Mar. 10 2008,18:11) But I had such high hopes of studying the Librarian sciences…. Stu, I am just “me”. But there is a desire to belong to a group. Even you have a group that you identify with, I'm sure? It's really not a matter of adopting a label, per se. It's about having a core of beliefs that other's share and confirm; it's about fellowship, ice cream socials and editing rights!
For me, it's about defining what I know and what I have come to believe. Honestly, I've given up the notion that I can identify with any of the religious groups out there. That is why I was joking regarding being a Trinitarian, Unitarian or Librarian. But it does “feel good” to belong. And I'm beginning to think it really doesn't matter which group you belong to because they all have truth.
Of course I am sure that the social aspect is the just about the only thing that keeps some churches together. Even if you are one of the doubters, at least there is a chat over a cup of tea afterwards, or something like it.I suppose I get a sense of belonging from workmates, friends and then into what you are describing, the fellowship that we all share as humans and from an interest in science the world-wide appreciation of the natural sciences and their explanations which is a shared language and understanding that by comparison leaves christianity and islam in the dust. There is not much fellowship to be had in atheism; there is not much to discuss once your converstaion has gone past
“Religious belief just a standard human self-delusion”
“Yep, it sure is”.
I mean, what else is there to sit around talking about? Atheism is too reactionary to be a uniting force.
Be careful of the Librarian cult. Once they have you in their vice-like grip you will be stacking shelves zombie-style for what will seem like an eternity!
I don't really mean what I write about librarians. They're good people and play a key part in our individual and community growth.
Stuart
Mandy,
Most people, and especially “believers” feel they are correct in matters of salvation and theology, their intense feelings lend creedence and support that their views are truth. It follows to them that, if I know truth and feel I'm right, then others who see see things differently must then be wrong. This is the great pitfall for some truths are relative and not absolute, our observations are effected by our individual perspectives. The old story of the 3 blind men and the elephant that I have brought up before is all too applicable. We all being limited beings will always have a limited perspective and thus should always accept we have limited understanding. This explains why we have so much debate even among Christians on the nature of Jesus, etc. . I am not saying everything is relative for there are indeed absolutes and discreet choices, yet even in these we have limited perspective. David for example gives us these choices:
“Some teach that Jesus is the Messiah. Either he is the messiah, or the whole thing is a lie. They cannot both be true.
Either God is a trinity or the trinity is a God dishonoring belief. They cannot both be true.
Either God condones homosexuallity, or he doesn't. Both can't be true.”
Yet look at how he sets up his choices, Jesus is messiah or the whole thing is a lie, a false dichotemy, maybe Jesus isn't the jewish messiah, but does that make all else a lie, I doubt it.
His trinity choice either it is or it's dishonoring God, see how the argument is spun? The choice is not in belief or non-belief, but between belief and dishonoring God not the same thing.
God condones homosexuality or not, perhaps, or maybe it doesn't matter to God and so he neither supports or condones.
We, like David, try to skew or spin even discreet choices based on our prejudices and perspectives, which is very human and natural, yet shows why truth is sometimes so elusive. Mandy you are closer to truth when you question and realize the truth you see may be only part of the whole. You are continuing to look and discover while others may be stuck with their little piece and think they have the whole.
Hi mandy,
Do not wander with these philosophers through their maze of confusion.There is truth and it is written and Christ will reveal it to you.
Quote (Cato @ Mar. 11 2008,02:04) We, like David, try to skew or spin even discreet choices based on our prejudices and perspectives, which is very human and natural, yet shows why truth is sometimes so elusive.
Truth can be elusive! Yes, finally someone who is speaking my language.I guess that it is elusive. But I want it all the same. I keep searching for it, leaving no rock un-turned. But I do find I am at a cross-road, in that I must let go of some teachings and embrace other's. A very personal decision needs to be made in my heart and mind.
I've seen both sides of the coin now. I've been privy enough to let go of certain dogmas so that I could search out other's. Not everyone is this privileged as they are caught and nailed down to one set of beliefs that they will not abandoned even if they are going down with the ship!
God is good. I find this journey has been exhausting and also extremely fulfilling. It's caused many to worry deeply about me and yet I feel such freedom to wander and wonder….. I'm glad that God is big enough to hold all my questions and my fears and my doubts.
What my final belief system will look like will definitely not grant me editing rights, I'm afraid
, but I will have something far more important….peace with God and the knowing that I searched him out to the far corner's. God cannot be defined. I don't believe he wants to be defined. Therefore, if I must remain under the label of “non-believer's” because I am uncertain if Jesus is the Messiah, then so be it. But I am very much a believer! Praise God.Quote (Stu @ Mar. 10 2008,17:57) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 10 2008,07:36) Hi Stu,
All the evidence you need will be given to you after you die.
That is wishful thinking on your part. If you think that there will be some kind of celestial justice and that non-believers have some pretty testing lessons to come, then I'm afraid that says more about your attitude to your fellow humans that mine. I place no judgement on your actions at all, other than challenging some of the absurd fundamentalist dogmas you are so keen on, or ideas that have caused harm. You would like to see my entire existence judged in your favour. I find that attitude hard to square with the Jesus concept (as he would seem to be with Paul removed).Stuart
Hi Stu,
No wishful thinking.
Just what we have gleaned from studying God's revelations.
There is a time coming when all will stand before Jesus and give account of their lives.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 10 2008,13:19) Hi mandy,
Do not wander with these philosophers through their maze of confusion.There is truth and it is written and Christ will reveal it to you.
Perhaps these many philosophers have a living, evolving faith that grows and not a stagnant one that is based on medieval beliefs?How do you know Nick? Met anyone (literally) that has returned from the other side to validate your belief?
Hi KJ,
You need more evidence?
Lk 16
28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 10 2008,20:43) Hi KJ,
You need more evidence?
Lk 16
28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Evidence? More of the same from the book that says you must believe in the words of the book.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 10 2008,20:43) Hi KJ,
You need more evidence?
Lk 16
28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Oh, and I knew this one would be coming. And so did the writers of the NT — to those who asked the same as I, this was their answer. Which really was no answer.So, getting back to the topic, what do others think of the prophecy of “messiah the leader” and the 70 weeks in danial 9:24-27?
A definite time frame is given for when messiah would arrive–69 weeks (of years) after the word being given to restore and rebuild Jerusalem.
This prophecy of “messiah the leader” is about terminating the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error.
We're told that after the 7 and 62 weeks “messiah would be cut off.”
That leaves one week, the 70th week, to finish off sin, etc.We're also told that “at the half of the week [the 70th] he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease.”
Interestingly, 3 1/2 years later (the half of the week [1 week being 7 years]) Jesus was cut off in death.
The need for the animal sacrifices and the gift offerings prescribed by the Law ceased when the resurrected Jesus presented the value of his sacrificed human life to God in heaven. Although the Jewish priests continued to make offerings until the destruction of Jerusalem’s temple in 70 C.E., such sacrifices were no longer acceptable to God. They had been replaced by a better sacrifice, one that never had to be repeated.I would like to discuss this subject.
Hi david,
You may find this link helpful
http://endtimepilgrim.org/70wks1.htm
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