- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2008,06:55) Hi Stu,
You can choose either side.
But there are only two options.
Huh?Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 19 2008,13:19) Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 20 2008,00:38) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 18 2008,23:40) Hi KJ,
Jesus has always been surrounded by contention.
Some even killed him because of his claims.
We should not join those enemies of God. He is Lord
Jesus was killed for being an insurrectionist. He claimed a kingdom. Plus, he became a troublemaker in the temple. It had nothing to do with a sacrifice, as you have already shown that God does not desire sacrifices or sin offerings (Ps 40).
Hi KJ,
Nobody has to serve the god of this world, the prince of darkness. Have you not heard of Jesus of Nazareth who came from God to offer men freedom?God gave the OT Law, but so that men would respond to the wisdom of Spirit of the Law and not just tick the boxes.
Although you get your idea from the bible, just because someone does not “serve” Jesus does not mean they in turn “serve” Satan. In fact, they don't have to “serve” anyone. Life really is not that B&W.Hi KJ,
Scripture tells us the earth is a kingdom of darkness ruled by the god of this world. All are unknowingly controlled by the prince of the power of the air[Eph2], and they need salvation lest they share his allotted fate.
Adam chose that path and God has allowed Adam's children to continue on it but it leads to ruin. Now God has offered an escape from that evil dominion for those who will trust His Son and be reborn into His family through repentance, water and the Spirit.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 19 2008,16:31) Hi KJ,
Scripture tells us the earth is a kingdom of darkness ruled by the god of this world. All are unknowingly controlled by the prince of the power of the air[Eph2], and they need salvation lest they share his allotted fate.
Nick,Can you tell me why the OT does not have this same idea of a dualistic world? Did “satan” just show up in the 1st century CE? Where are demon possessions in the OT?
Quote Adam chose that path and God has allowed Adam's children to continue on it but it leads to ruin.
Adam made one mistake and all of mankind was cursed because of it? Hardly.Quote Now God has offered an escape from that evil dominion for those who will trust His Son and be reborn into His family through repentance, water and the Spirit.
Why did God wait 4000 years (or more) to offer this escape? Why be so cruel for 1000s of years prior to this?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 19 2008,17:38) Hi KJ,
Read Jb1-2
Sorry, but the “satan” there is not opposed to God, but is a servant of God, in subjection to God. He can do nothing without asking God first. He certainly is not the “god of this world” as Yahweh is still in control in Job.Satan in Job is certainly not an enemy of God.
Hi KJ,
You do not understand our living God.
He is very tolerant of the rebel in His camp.
He also allows Satan to test Job to the extremes.Quote Satan in Job is certainly not an enemy of God.
Does not the word “Satan” mean “opposer” or “resister”?Are ones who resist or oppose you considered friends or enemies?
Sorry about that. Somehow I was sucked into the off topic whatever that is going on in this thread.
There are so many “chat” threads that these things could be discussed on…
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 19 2008,23:35) Hi KJ,
You do not understand our living God.
He is very tolerant of the rebel in His camp.
He also allows Satan to test Job to the extremes.
So how do you explain the role of “satan” in the NT? How can he be the “god of this world”? Is this all just a game to the God represented in the bible?Quote (david @ Mar. 19 2008,23:37) Quote Satan in Job is certainly not an enemy of God.
Does not the word “Satan” mean “opposer” or “resister”?Are ones who resist or oppose you considered friends or enemies?
If he was an enemy of God, he would not have to get God's permission.The “adversary” part is not to God. It is a case by case basis. In Job, the being called “satan” was an adversary to Job. Not God.
Hi KJ,
Satn hates his little earthly kingdom being weakened day by day. His rule by demonic minions is destroyed in each new reborn babe in Christ and he can see the day coming when he will have nothing left and knows his own fate is written. While can he uses those many men still loyal to him to oppose the kingdom of light.God allows all this because such fire purifies.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2008,00:19) Hi KJ,
Satn hates his little earthly kingdom being weakened day by day. His rule by demonic minions is destroyed in each new reborn babe in Christ and he can see the day coming when he will have nothing left and knows his own fate is written. While can he uses those many men still loyal to him to oppose the kingdom of light.God allows all this because such fire purifies.
Show me where this has any foundation in the OT.Quote (david @ Mar. 20 2008,00:23) Anyone wanna talk about the trinity in this thread? Haven't discussed that here yet.
You did say you were going to start a new thread. Perhaps if you request that Nick not post in it, it will stay on-topic?Something I haven't actually really ever heard on here is the actual explanation of why wickedness and sufferering are allowed, why God allows them, why the world is the way it is, etc.
The reason why God has permitted wickedness to exist until our day is related to events that happened early in human history. An incident that took place back then raised an important issue concerning the Creator himself—a question that could not be settled quickly or easily. Let us take a close look at what happened.
Jehovah God created the first man and woman perfect and placed them in Paradise. They were endowed with a gift that distinguished them from animals—the gift of free will. (Genesis 1:28; 2:15, 19) As free moral agents, Adam and Eve could use their intellect to choose to love, serve, and obey their Creator. Or they could select a course of independence from God and deliberately disobey him.
To give Adam and Eve an opportunity to demonstrate their love for him, the true God placed one restriction upon them. He commanded Adam: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.” (Genesis 2:16, 17) To remain in God’s favor, to their own benefit and that of their future family, Adam and Eve would have to refrain from eating the fruit of that one particular tree. Would they?
The Bible tells us what happened. Using a serpent as his mouthpiece, Satan the Devil approached Eve and said: “Is it really so that God said you must not eat from every tree of the garden?” When Eve repeated God’s command, Satan said to her: “You positively will not die. For God knows that in the very day of your eating from it your eyes are bound to be opened and you are bound to be like God, knowing good and bad.” Consequently, the tree seemed so desirable to Eve that “she began taking of its fruit and eating it.” The account continues: “Afterward she gave some also to her husband when with her and he began eating it.” (Genesis 3:1-6) Both Adam and Eve thus misused their free will and sinned by disobeying God.
Do you see the seriousness of what transpired? The Devil contradicted what God had said to Adam. . Satan’s words implied that Adam and Eve would not need Jehovah in order to decide what was good and what was bad for them. Satan’s challenge therefore brought into question the right and validity of Jehovah’s rulership over man. The all-important issue that Satan raised, then, was that of the rightfulness of Jehovah’s sovereignty. How did the true God answer the challenge?
Jehovah had the power to destroy the three rebels—Satan, Adam, and Eve. God was unquestionably stronger than they were. But Satan did not question God’s power. Instead, he questioned Jehovah’s right to rule. . The issue affected all creatures having free will. They needed to see that the gift of free will must be used properly—within the bounds of physical, moral, and spiritual guidelines from God. Otherwise, harm results, just as surely as injury will occur when a man jumps off the roof of a tall building without regard for the law of gravity. (Galatians 6:7, 8) ) All intelligent creatures could benefit from observing for themselves the bad fruitage of choosing a course of independence from God. This required time.
The fact that it requires time to settle some issues can be illustrated this way: Suppose the father of one family challenges the father of another to a contest that will prove which man is stronger. That issue could be decided quickly. Strength could be measured by lifting rocks. The father who lifted the heaviest rock would be the stronger man. But suppose the challenge involved which father truly loves his sons and daughters and whether they love him in return. Or what if the challenge raises the question of which father manages his family in the best way? Neither a display of strength nor mere words would be adequate. Sufficient time would have to pass, careful observation would be required, and right conclusions would have to be drawn in order for the issue to be settled.
Some 6,000 years have passed since Satan questioned God’s right to rule. What has history revealed? Consider two aspects of Satan’s allegation against God. Satan boldly told Eve: “You positively will not die.” (Genesis 3:4) By saying that Adam and Eve would not die if they partook of the forbidden fruit, Satan was in effect calling Jehovah a liar. A serious charge indeed! If God were not truthful in this matter, how could he be trusted in anything else? However, what has the elapsed time shown?
Adam and Eve became subject to sickness, pain, aging and, finally, death. “All the days of Adam that he lived amounted to nine hundred and thirty years and he died,” states the Bible. (Genesis 3:19; 5:5) And from Adam, this sad legacy has been transmitted to all mankind. (Romans 5:12) The passing of time has proved Satan to be “a liar and the father of the lie” and has shown that Jehovah is “the God of truth.”—John 8:44; Psalm 31:5.
Satan also told Eve: “God knows that in the very day of your eating from [the forbidden tree] your eyes are bound to be opened and you [both Eve and Adam] are bound to be like God, knowing good and bad.” (Genesis 3:5) With those cunning words, Satan presented humans with a sham opportunity to be self-governed. Deceptively, Satan implied that humans would be better off independent of God. Has this proved true?
Throughout the course of history, empires have come and gone. Every conceivable form of human government has been tried. Time and again, however, dreadful things have happened to the human family. “Man has dominated man to his injury,” a Bible writer wisely concluded some 3,000 years ago. (Ecclesiastes 8:9) “It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step,” wrote the prophet Jeremiah. (Jeremiah 10:23) Even scientific and technological achievements of recent years have not negated the truth of these statements. The passage of time has only proved these observations to be true.
The time allowed by God has proved Satan wrong on the issue of the rightfulness of Jehovah’s sovereignty. Jehovah God is the absolute Sovereign of the universe. He has the right to rule over his creation, and his way of ruling is the best. Acknowledging this fact, heavenly creatures who have intimately experienced life under God’s rule declare: “You are worthy, Jehovah, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created.”—Revelation 4:11.
Continuing on, and at the same time, turning the conversation back to the messiah:
What do we expect that a ruler would do when there was an outright rebellion in his realm? Those who are familiar with history can recall some such instances. Rather than ignoring the matter, usually a sovereign—even a benevolent ruler—would render judgment against the rebels, declaring them guilty of treason. Then the ruler might empower someone to subdue the rebel forces and restore peace. Similarly, Jehovah showed that he was in full control of the situation when he took immediate action and pronounced judgment upon the rebels. He pronounced Adam and Eve unworthy of the gift of everlasting life, and He drove them out of the garden of Eden.—Genesis 3:16-19, 22-24.
In pronouncing his judgment against Satan, Jehovah revealed a new expression of his sovereignty, a means by which he would restore peace and order to all his realm. To Satan, God said: “I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.” (Genesis 3:15) Thus Jehovah revealed that it was his purpose to empower a “seed” to crush Satan and his forces and to prove the rightfulness of His sovereignty.—Psalm 2:7-9; 110:1, 2.
That “seed” turned out to be Jesus Christ along with a distinct group of associate rulers. Together they form God’s Messianic Kingdom. (Daniel 7:13, 14, 27; Matthew 19:28; Luke 12:32; 22:28-30) All of this, however, was not revealed immediately. In fact, the outworking of the first prophecy remained a “sacred secret which [had] been kept in silence for long-lasting times.” (Romans 16:25) For centuries, men of faith longed for the time when “the sacred secret” would be revealed and the first prophecy fulfilled to the vindication of Jehovah’s sovereignty.—Romans 8:19-21.
ISSUE OF UNIVERSAL SOVEREIGNTY:
As God’s children, Adam and Eve had the opportunity to live forever on earth, provided that they obeyed their heavenly Father. He placed only one restriction upon them. “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction,” said Jehovah, “but as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.”—Genesis 2:16, 17.
However, a spirit creature identified in the Bible as Satan the Devil said just the opposite: “You positively will not die.” (Genesis 3:1-5) In blatantly contradicting God, Satan not only called the Creator a liar but also implied that His way of ruling is wrong—that man could do better without God. Satan convinced Eve that disobedience to God would bring liberation and moral independence. He said she would be “like God”! Satan thus attacked Jehovah’s good name and purpose.
That conversation had profound consequences. In fact, Jehovah’s purpose to clear his name and reputation is the primary theme of the Bible.
This is summed up in Jesus’ model prayer—often called the Lord’s Prayer or the Our Father. Jesus taught his followers to pray: “Let your name be sanctified. Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place . . . upon earth.”—Matthew 6:9, 10.Satan raised some fundamental issues: Who told the truth—Jehovah or Satan? Is Jehovah’s rule over his creation just and good? Does he have the right to expect humans to obey him? Would mankind really be better off ruling themselves? In order to resolve those questions, Jehovah has temporarily allowed humans to govern themselves.
What has been the result? Since that first lie in Eden, human history has been filled with hardship and suffering, proving that Satan is a monstrous liar and that independence from God leads only to disaster. However, Jehovah in his love and limitless wisdom purposes to clear his name by undoing all the difficulties that began in Eden. He will do so by means of the Messianic Kingdom.
A spirit son of God (Satan) rebelled and set out to thwart Jehovah’s purpose, abusing the divine gift of free will. He disturbed the peace that comes to all who manifest loving submission to Jehovah’s sovereignty. Satan led the first human couple to embark on a course of independence from God. (Genesis 3:1-6) He did not deny Jehovah’s power, but he challenged His way of exercising sovereignty and therefore His right to rule. Thus, the fundamental issue of Jehovah’s sovereignty came into focus here on earth, at the very dawn of mankind’s history.
2nd ISSUE:
Bound up with that primary issue of universal sovereignty is a secondary issue raised by Satan in the days of Job. Satan cast doubt on the motive of Jehovah’s creatures in submitting to Him and serving Him. Satan implied that they were doing so for selfish reasons and that put to the test they would turn against God. (Job 1:7-11; 2:4, 5) While raised in connection with a human servant of Jehovah, this challenge also involved the spirit sons of God, even Jehovah’s only-begotten Son.
Faithful to his purpose and to the meaning of his name, Jehovah caused himself to become a Prophet and a Savior. He told Satan: “I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.” (Genesis 3:15) By means of the Seed of his “woman,” or the heavenly part of his organization, Jehovah would answer Satan’s challenge and provide Adam’s descendants with hope of deliverance and life.—Romans 5:21; Galatians 4:26, 31.And of course the seed of that “woman” (see Revelation) turned out to be the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
