Jesus is sovereign and therefore, god

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 25 2009,05:40)

Look at various footnotes on this verse, bro. Do your research. It's not as clear as you are praying it is.

Love,
Mandy

Mandy,
The notes make no difference. Jesus is declared to be Lord in the verse. No matter how you parse it Jesus is Lord.

Christianity 101

thinker

July 24, 2009 at 6:45 pm#138730

Participant

Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 25 2009,05:00)

Anti-trinitarians claim that only the Father is sovereign. Well guess what, in the book of Jude, Jesus is referred to as sovereign.

Jude verse 4:

Quote

Jesus in this verse is called sovereign. Ok, so what does sovereign mean?

Definition taken from dictionary.com.

Quote

Hi TC:

Quote

Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Phl 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Phl 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;

Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I believe that the scriptures are self-explanatory. These scriptures show that Jesus is a man whom God has highly exalted and has given him all power over heaven and earth as His representative.

Notice that “God” has given him this position of authority. There is only “ONE GOD”.

Love in Christ,
Marty

July 24, 2009 at 6:55 pm#138732

Participant

Quote (942767 @ July 25 2009,06:45)

Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 25 2009,05:00)

Anti-trinitarians claim that only the Father is sovereign. Well guess what, in the book of Jude, Jesus is referred to as sovereign.

Jude verse 4:

Quote

Jesus in this verse is called sovereign. Ok, so what does sovereign mean?

Definition taken from dictionary.com.

Quote

Hi TC:

Quote

Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Phl 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Phl 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;

Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I believe that the scriptures are self-explanatory. These scriptures show that Jesus is a man whom God has highly exalted and has given him all power over heaven and earth as His representative.

Notice that “God” has given him this position of authority. There is only “ONE GOD”.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty,
You left out verses 5-8 which say that Jesus existed in God's form BEFORE He became a man and that he humbled Himself and became a servant. Why do you begin Paul's thought with verse 9? Why do you say that the scriptures are “self explanatory” when you leave out such important statements? By your omitting statements you are not allowing the scriptures to be self explanatory. Just who do you think you're kidding? YOU DO NOT LET THE SCRIPTURE BE SELF EXPLANATORY!

thinker

July 24, 2009 at 7:09 pm#138734

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ July 25 2009,06:55)

Quote (942767 @ July 25 2009,06:45)

Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 25 2009,05:00)

Anti-trinitarians claim that only the Father is sovereign. Well guess what, in the book of Jude, Jesus is referred to as sovereign.

Jude verse 4:

Quote

Jesus in this verse is called sovereign. Ok, so what does sovereign mean?

Definition taken from dictionary.com.

Quote

Hi TC:

Quote

Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Phl 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Phl 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;

Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I believe that the scriptures are self-explanatory. These scriptures show that Jesus is a man whom God has highly exalted and has given him all power over heaven and earth as His representative.

Notice that “God” has given him this position of authority. There is only “ONE GOD”.

Love in Christ,
Marty

thinker

Hi thethinker:

No, the scriptures do not say that Jesus was in the form of God “before he became a man”. You are adding to the scriptures when you say, “before he became a man”. He was in the form of God as God's Christ, and the Apostle Paul is simply using the life of Jesus to teach the church about humility in those verses that you say I left out.

Love in Christ,
Marty

July 24, 2009 at 7:35 pm#138745

Participant

Marty said:

Quote

Hi thethinker:

Marty,
I marvel that you can say that I am adding to the scriptures when this is what you are doing. It does NOT say that Jesus was in the form of God “as God's Christ.” It clearly says that He existed in God's form and then took upon Himself the form of a servant and was “MADE in the likeness of men.” And “being found in fashion as a man He humbled Himself and became obedient to death, even the death of the cross.”

You do NOT let the scriptures be self explanatory. You add the words “as God's Christ.” It CLEARLY says that Jesus existed in God's form and then became a man.

thinker

July 24, 2009 at 7:41 pm#138746

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ July 25 2009,07:35)

Marty said:

Quote

Hi thethinker:

You do NOT let the scriptures be self explanatory. You add the words “as God's Christ.” It CLEARLY says that Jesus existed in God's form and then became a man.

thinker

Hi thethinker:

Here it is from the KJV:

Quote

Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Phl 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

The Apostle Paul is referring to Christ Jesus here is he not? And where, do these verses say that he was in the form of God “before he became a man”?

Love in Christ,
Marty

July 24, 2009 at 10:37 pm#138769

Participant

Marty,

You forget that in Philippians chapter 2 it says that Christ humbled HIMSELF. This implies he did it of his own volition. It says that he made HIMSELF nothing. This means it was his choice to become a man. This CHOICE to become a man was possible because of his SOVEREIGNTY. He was sovereign before he became flesh, and when he was exalted, he was restored to his previous sovereign state.

By the way Marty, your logic is flawed. You say that the verse in Jude is a reference to Jesus after his exaltation. But tell me, if Jesus is sovereign and was exalted to the highest place then he would be equal with God wouldn't he? If he is equal with God, but not God, then we have two powers of equal sovereignty. Which would make Jesus another god in addition to the one true God. The only explaination is that Jesus IS the one true God. That is the only way his being sovereign makes any sense.

TC27

July 24, 2009 at 11:25 pm#138773

NickHassan

Participant

Hi TC,
Was God made a man and then became GOD again?
'While he was here he prayed to God -WAS THAT TO HIMSELF?

July 24, 2009 at 11:25 pm#138774

NickHassan

Participant

Hi TT,
Jesus had a God[jn20]

Was that another part of Himself?

July 24, 2009 at 11:40 pm#138778

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 25 2009,11:25)

Hi TC,
Was God made a man and then became GOD again?
'While he was here he prayed to God -WAS THAT TO HIMSELF?

Three in one Nick. Three in one.

thinker

July 25, 2009 at 12:22 am#138788

datguy

Participant

HI TT, is it that you think Lord means God? I hope that is not the case.
Women of the bible commonly refer to men as their Lord.
Christ being a son over his own house was made Lord and Christ by God. Acts 2:36..Heb 3:6

July 25, 2009 at 12:59 am#138790

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 24 2009,15:25)

Hi TC,
Was God made a man and then became GOD again?
'While he was here he prayed to God -WAS THAT TO HIMSELF?

Nick,

No. Jesus was God while he was on earth, but he was God manifested in the flesh and therefore had the limitations of the flesh. He was fully God and fully man.

TC27

July 25, 2009 at 1:00 am#138791

Participant

Quote (datguy @ July 24 2009,16:22)

dg,

That is not what thinker is saying.

TC27

July 25, 2009 at 1:39 am#138803

Participant

Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 25 2009,10:37)

Marty,

TC27

Hi TC:

It was on Jesus own volition that he humbled himself and became obedient even unto death on the cross, but no, the scripture does not say that he became a man on this own volition. It was the Father's decision when by His Spirit he overshadowed the then virgin Mary, and Jesus was conceived in her womb. Isn't that when he became a man?

Jesus is the express image of God's person and God has exalted him to be the head of the church and over all of his creation, but no, he will never be equal to God. He taught the Word of God and obeyed the Word and has become the author of eternal life and can then help us also by the life that he lived and lives to overcome sin as we learn to obey him in the body of Christ.

There is only “One God”. (Ephesians 4 & 1 Ti 2:5)

Love in Christ,
Marty

July 25, 2009 at 1:49 am#138811

Participant

Hi TC:

No, not equal to God:

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1Cr 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

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1Cr 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.

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Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all(including Jesus), and through all, and in you all.

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1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Love in Christ,
Marty

July 25, 2009 at 3:23 am#138819