Jesus did not pre-exist

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (katjo @ Nov. 11 2009,18:23)

trinitarians dont beleive in Gods-ONE GOD!!

You claim three.

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (katjo @ Nov. 11 2009,18:44)

YES- Father, Son, Holy Spirit are one.

The RCC wants you back as there poster child. You seem to promote them with every breath.

[Anonymous]

You are so blind!! Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus?

[GeneBalthrop]

Katjo………Jesus would tell you you better get a personal relationship with GOD the FATHER as He HAD and obey HIM as HE does. He also would tell you the GOD the FATHER is the “ONLY (TRUE) GOD. When are you going to start believing Jesus?

gene

[Anonymous]

this should help you see jesus pre-existed. Col 1;16 says all things were created by Jesus. All things in heaven and earth. By him and for Him. The Word was God that beacme flesh. 1 Timothy 3:16 And without contraversy great is the mystery of Godliness; GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH, JUSTIFIED IN THE SPIRIT, SEEN OF ANGELS, PREACHED UNTO THE GENTILES, BELIEVED ON IN THE WORLD,RECEIVED UP INTO GLORY! did you read that? GOD came in the flesh! What a awesome God!

[Anonymous]

Gene you better read your bible a little better because I can tell by that post you dont have a relationship with Jesus. And its all about Jesus, He is the ONLY way for your Salvation, And if you dont have Jesus you dont have the Holy Spirit and scripture says the body without the spirit is dead. Jesus also talks about the ones whos hearts are far from Him!

[NickHassan]

Hi KAT,
Will a possible relationship with Jesus be enough?
He is the door of the kingdom and you need to be joined with him.
He is looking for people to become part of his body, not just to know about him.

[kerwin]

Quote (katjo @ Nov. 12 2009,08:44)

YES- Father, Son, Holy Spirit are one.

It is your choice to embrace contradictions in the name of God even though God is not a God of contradictions.  

Peter spoke true when he stated that some scriptures are hard to understand and sadly we as humans seek to take the easy way out instead of struggling to understand the truth that is in God.

How can Jesus be 100% human being at the same time he is 100% God as the two are not comparable as one is limited and the other is limitless.

Jesus lacks certain knowledge while God knows everything.

Jesus can be tempted by evil while God cannot be.

Contradictions everywhere.

As I stated, it is your choice if you wish to embrace them.   I do know that you like me will be held accountable for the choices you make.  The fact you are willing to discuss Jesus and his teachings gives me hope you are seeking God's truth so I say keep seeking that you may find.  God exists and will guide you if you ask, seek, and knock.

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (katjo @ Nov. 11 2009,19:20)

You are so blind!! Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus?

I absolutly have a relationship with the Messiah, and I didn't have to turn him into a God to do it either.

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 11 2009,22:11)

Quote (katjo @ Nov. 12 2009,08:44) YES- Father, Son, Holy Spirit are one. It is your choice to embrace contradictions in the name of God even though God is not a God of contradictions.   Peter spoke true when he stated that some scriptures are hard to understand and sadly we as humans seek to take the easy way out instead of struggling to understand the truth that is in God. How can Jesus be 100% human being at the same time he is 100% God as the two are not comparable as one is limited and the other is limitless. Jesus lacks certain knowledge while God knows everything. Jesus can be tempted by evil while God cannot be. Contradictions everywhere. As I stated, it is your choice if you wish to embrace them.   I do know that you like me will be held accountable for the choices you make.  The fact you are willing to discuss Jesus and his teachings gives me hope you are seeking God's truth so I say keep seeking that you may find.  God exists and will guide you if you ask, seek, and knock.

Absolutly correct Kerwin, one cannot be both.

If 100% God made himself into 100% Bullfrog, He would not be a bullfrog, he would be God. He may look like a bullfrog but he would still be 100% God.

The Messiah had to die on the cross, if he were God that would be impossible.

Seems silly to take a sacrifice to the Temple for sin that cannot die.

[kerwin]

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 12 2009,12:21)

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 11 2009,22:11) Quote (katjo @ Nov. 12 2009,08:44) YES- Father, Son, Holy Spirit are one. It is your choice to embrace contradictions in the name of God even though God is not a God of contradictions.   Peter spoke true when he stated that some scriptures are hard to understand and sadly we as humans seek to take the easy way out instead of struggling to understand the truth that is in God. How can Jesus be 100% human being at the same time he is 100% God as the two are not comparable as one is limited and the other is limitless. Jesus lacks certain knowledge while God knows everything. Jesus can be tempted by evil while God cannot be. Contradictions everywhere. As I stated, it is your choice if you wish to embrace them.   I do know that you like me will be held accountable for the choices you make.  The fact you are willing to discuss Jesus and his teachings gives me hope you are seeking God's truth so I say keep seeking that you may find.  God exists and will guide you if you ask, seek, and knock. Absolutly correct Kerwin, one cannot be both. If 100% God made himself into 100% Bullfrog, He would not be a bullfrog, he would be God. He may look like a bullfrog but he would still be 100% God. The Messiah had to die on the cross, if he were God that would be impossible. Seems silly to take a sacrifice to the Temple for sin that cannot die.

I am overjoyed that God cannot die because if he did we would be in TROUBLE.

[martian]

When we consider God, a being that is almighty who created everything that existed we don't usually think that there are things God cannot do. There are many things man can’t do, but there are also things God can’t do. That’s right God can’t do all things. It is not because He is unable to, that He is limited in power in any way. It is because of who He is in nature. There are guidelines that even God cannot step over. For example God cannot be God and not be God at the same time. He cannot create another God from a creature that would be made equal with himself. The secondary God would be derived from and dependent on the first so it would be finite. Since he had a beginning it could not be as powerful as its originator. One of the first requirements for being God is to be be infinite and eternal, so a created god does not qualify for the job description of being God.
So what can't He do?
1. It is impossible for God to lie. Can God make two plus two equal five? It is impossible for God to lie, so he is consistent with truth which has absolutes. His standard of right and wrong does not change.
Heb.6:18 He can’t lie = he can’t break a unconditional promise what he says he will fulfill. He is the truth, there is no darkness in him. He cannot go back on His Word.
When he told Abraham to take his only son and put him on the altar, Abraham knew that if God allowed him to have Isaac killed he would have had to raise him up back to life. This is because he already promised Abraham that through Isaac the promises of his Covenant would come.
God can never send another flood over the whole earth like he did in Noah's day. Its not that he doesn't have the ability, He can’t do it because He promised He never would do it again (the rainbow is there to remind us of this truth). God’s nature is inclined to truth which means He keeps His promises.
2.Can God make a rock so big that even he can’t lift it? If he can’t lift it then he is not all powerful. Then the rock has become more powerful than God and whatever is more powerful than God is God. God has infinite qualities not finite, God can only do things that are possible he can’t make square circles or a two sided triangle. It is asking God to bring about a logically contradictory state to his own nature.
This is what is called a category mistake to say he can make something he can’t lift. Its like asking a bachelor what his wife’s name is? What does the color yellow taste like. Color doesn’t taste. Its not possible for God to make a rock so big that even he can’t lift it. If he can make it he can lift it. If he can create it , he can destroy it. . It does not show that God has a limit to his power which means he does not possess infinite power. This means whatever he created is under his jurisdiction under his control, it can never have equality.
“Whatever implies being and nonbeing simultaneously is incompatible with the absolute possibility which falls under divine omnipotence. Such a contradiction is not subject to it, not from any impotence in God, but because it simply does not have the nature of being feasible or possible. Whatever, then, does not involve a contradiction is in the realm of the possible with respect to which God is omnipotent. Whatever involves a contradiction is not within the scope of omnipotence because it cannot qualify for possibility. Better, however, to say that it cannot be done, rather than God cannot do it.” (T. Aquinas Summa Theologica p. 163-164 , Volume I, ques. 15 ans. 3)
3.Can God stop being God or stop existing? The nature of God is infinite meaning no end. God's unchanging moral character is a moral absolute. This includes holiness, justice, love, mercy and truth. God is who He is forever and is the only constant thing (being) in the universe. Only created things subject to time and space which are of a non eternal substance can change. God could not change if he wanted to (which he would not ) Because he is the highest and ultimate state of perfection. Words fail to describe at this point the state God is in.
4. He is not free to act contrary to his nature that is permanent. Does this mean he is not all powerful? No- it means that as a perfect and unchangeable being His commands and actions are rooted in the ultimate good which flow from his nature. God's moral character does not change. “I the Lord change not “Mal.3:6. There is no shadow of change with God (Jm.1:17).
His nature is eternal. He cannot say tomorrow I’ll act like the devil for a while or sin as man does. What God has been, He will always be, (the I Am). He is completely self sufficient within himself.
5.God cannot sin, Holiness is part of his intrinsic nature, He cannot do otherwise.
6.God cannot learn anything new. Before He created anything He knew all about it. There is no progression in knowledge for God as their is with man. God has no limitations on anything that He can create.
7.God cannot answer every prayer you want but only those that are in accordance to His will being done on earth. He cannot answer prayers that would do the very opposite of His purposes.
8. God is always right-When God does something, it is not right because He did it. It is right because it is right. It is not good because God chose it, therefore it must be good! God chose it because it is good, God wills it because it is good, it’s not good simply because he wills it or chose it to be. God is not arbitrary or capricious. He knows the greater good because he possesses all knowledge. All of nature shows this to be true. Order is of the greater design and objective, chaos is not. To preserve life is the greater good, to take life is not, (exceptions are the rarity). This is because all flow from His moral nature. So while God is all powerful he cannot act or think contrary to his perfect eternal unlimited nature, which is the ultimate moral good.

[martian]

From my previous post you can see the truth that God cannot sin or be tempted to sin. Jesus was clearly tempted to sin. This excludes Jesus from being God. Here is an article I wrote some years ago. I repost it for your edification.

Three Strikes?

One of the most important questions all Christians must determine is “Who is Jesus?” The word “Christian” itself means followers of Christ. It is imperative to know who Jesus is in order to follow him. The most critical aspect in examination of a living creature must be the make up of that creature. When speaking of the make up of Christ, there are very clear scriptures that determine his being.
Jesus has a human soul- Matt 26/38 – Then He said to them, “My soul is deeply grieved, to the point of death; remain here and keep watch with Me.”
Jesus has a human spirit and was mortal – Luke 23/46 – And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.” Having said this, He breathed His last. [The word “spirit” here is the word for human spirit not the Holy Spirit]
Jesus has a personal human will – John 5/30 I can do nothing on My own initiative As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
Matt 26/39 And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will.”
Jesus has a human body – Mark 15/43 Joseph of Arimathea came, a prominent member of the Council, who himself was waiting for the kingdom of God; and he gathered up courage and went in before Pilate, and asked for the body of Jesus.

From these scriptures it is very clear that Jesus has the same general make up as the rest of humanity. But is Jesus like the rest of humanity in every way? Fortunately, scripture is very clear on this point.
Hebrews 2/17 and 18 – Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren IN ALL THINGS, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

18 For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.

All of Christianity is based on the fundamentals of Christ’s nature. One of the most fundamental teachings of scripture is that Jesus is to be our example and we are to become like him.

1 Peter 2/21 and 22 – For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,

22 who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in his mouth;

1 John 2/5 and 6 – but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected By this we know that we are in Him:

6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

Other scriptures are equally clear.
Jesus is the first to fulfill God’s plan. (I Cor 15/20,23)
Jesus is God’s only begotten son. Begotten meaning born or began. (Luke 2/1-7)
Jesus is a descendant of David. (Matt Chapter 1 and Mark 10/47)
Jesus sleeps (Mark 4/38)
Jesus cries (John 11/35)
Jesus Prays (Luke 6/12, 18/20)
Jesus is a prophet and speaks prophetically from His Father Yahweh. (John 8/40)
Jesus is the Messiah (John 1/41and John 4/25&26)
Jesus lives a sinless life.(II Cor 5/21)
There is one mediator between God (Yahweh) and Man (humanity) The MAN Christ Jesus. (I Tim 2/5) [The word “man” here is the Greek word Anthropos. It has only one meaning, human being.]
Jesus is our brother (Matthew 12:50 , Hebrews 2:11)
Jesus is in submission to God (Yahweh) (I Cor 15/25-28)
Jesus' source of Life is Yahweh (John 5/26)
Jesus willingly went to the cross. ( Mark 10/45 and John 10:17-18)
Jesus dies. ( Mark 15/37 and 44,45)
Jesus was raised from the dead by God (Yahweh) ( I Cor 6/14)
God (Yahweh) gave Jesus authority over all mankind. (Matt 28/13)
Jesus is King of heaven and earth until all His enemies are under His feet. ( I Cor 15/25)

The previously stated scriptures are universally accepted among orthodox Christians. Even in light of these very clear scriptures most Christians come to believe what they have been taught from historical dogma. One of those historical doctrines is called the dual nature of Christ. This doctrine states that Jesus had a dual nature. He is both fully God and fully man at the same time. This belief is held by both Trinitarian and Oneness denominations. In fact, most of their belief systems are centered around this doctrine. For years the fight between Oneness and Trinitarian believers has raged. It is curious that both sides cling to this concept to support their dogma. But, does this doctrine stand up to close examination?
There are no such words as Dual Nature or 100% man and 100% God in scripture. In fact the concept is conspicuously absent in any clear form whatsoever. Would God hide this most important understanding of Christianity? Would the nature of Jesus remain hidden so as to make it impossible to understand or see him as a clear pattern?
When a doctrine requires words and phrases outside of clear scripture, one should take note and beware. One of the most common ways in which false teachers attempt to prove doctrine is by using scriptures out of context and reading scripture with preconceived ideas of doctrine. Instead of letting scripture interpret doctrine some let doctrine interpret scripture.
Since there are no clear scriptures to define this dual nature of Christ we must look elsewhere to determine it’s origin and history. First let’s look at some of the history, by which this doctrine entered the teaching of the church.

Most of the primary tenants of the dual nature doctrine stem from several councils starting in 325 A.D. These councils were formed for the purpose of denouncing what was believed to be false doctrine and for instituting some central statements defining the faith. Unfortunately, by this time in history, Christianity had been corrupted by Paganism and Greek philosophy and the councils reflected this influince. The Nicean council stated that Jesus was fully God in response to the Arians who believed that Jesus was not God. Of course this council was lead by Constantine emperor of Rome, who himself was an admitted sun worshipper and forced his own will on the council by virtue of threats of death and banishment. Constantine himself suggested the critical statement that Jesus and God were of the same substance. This subject will be brought to more light later in this article.
The Apollianarians Did not believe that Jesus was fully human, therefore the council of Constantinople (381 A.D.) declared he was fully human.
The Nestorianism group denied that Mary could be called the mother of God. They believed that Mary was only the mother of the human part of Jesus. The resulting belief dictated that there exists two Christs, one divine and one human. In response to this the council of Ephesus (431 A.D.) decreed That the two natures of Jesus are one and cannot be separated.
This concept lead to an impossible conclusion. Everything that happened to Jesus, happened to both his divine and human natures. From this standpoint both natures were born of Mary and both died on the cross. This makes Mary, a human woman, the literal mother of God and that God literally died on the cross. Can a human woman be the mother of God?Can God literally die?
This concept that God can be a man contradicts very clear scripture.
Numbers 23/16 Then the Lord met Balaam and put a word in his mouth and said, “Return to Balik and thus you shall speak” Numbers 23/19
“God is not a man that He should lie, Nor a son of man that He should repent.”
God simply cannot be man or become man. Jesus continually spoke of His father and separated himself in distinction from Him.

Mark 13:32 – [Jesus does not know everything the Fa
ther knows] – “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”
[Is this the omniscience of a co-equal or dual natured person of God?]

John 14:28 – “Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: FOR MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I.” [Again can Jesus be a co-equal person of God or have the nature of God and yet be lesser then Yahweh?]

John 20:17 – “Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto MY FATHER AND YOUR FATHER; and to MY GOD, AND YOUR GOD.” [ Can a God (Jesus) have a God?]

1 Cor. 11:3 – “But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD.” [Co-equal?, Dual Natured?]

1 Cor 15:24-28 – “Then cometh the end, when he [Jesus] shall have delivered up the kingdom to GOD; EVEN THE FATHER; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, THEN SHALL THE SON ALSO HIMSELF BE SUBJECT UNTO HIM THAT PUT ALL THINGS UNDER HIM, THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.”
[ Clearly Jesus’ reign is subject to the Father. He eventually places all things, including himself into subjection to Yahweh ]

In previous verses remember that Jesus clearly differentiates between the will of the Father and his own will. (John 5/30) In addition scripture clearly speaks of Jesus being made like his brethren (us) in ALL THINGS. Not in all things except his nature.(Hebrews 2/17 and 18)
Rather then continue to take the common approach of only dissecting scriptures let us, to some degree, examine this doctrine from a pure logical stand. Let’s discuss this from a functional standard. For a doctrine to function correctly it must accomplish goals that are in sinc with God’s plan. A teaching must help us to become like Christ. As previously stated, most orthodox Christians believe that Jesus has a full human nature and a full divine nature. In addition most believe that Jesus is the pattern son and that we are to become like him.

STRIKE ONE

Let’s look at the dual nature aspect. In order for Jesus to possess both human and devine natures he must be mortal and immortal at the same time. Finite and infinite, infallible and infallible, temptable and non temptable, This is a logical impossibility. At this point most “dual nature believers” make statements such as “God’s ways are higher then our ways” or it is a paradox that we cannot understand with our feeble fallen minds.
Firstly from the very beginning of recorded history in scripture God has dealt with man according to reason and logic. The rules of action and reaction are clearly shown in God’s covenants with man. If we act in accordance with God’s covenant then we receive the blessing of God. If not then we do not. If God were not a reasoning creature or we not able to understand reason, we could never understand or follow his covenants. We are created in the image of God, with the same reasoning abilities as God. In fact God calls upon us to reason with Him. Isaiah 1:18
“Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow, though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.” Would God calls us to reason with Him were we not capable of doing so?
Without clear understanding of how Jesus accompolished what he did we cannot imitate it. There must be an understanding of the nature and character of Jesus for us to follow.
In one of the most definitive statements in the word God proclaims to Moses “I Am”. This statement makes very clear that the nature of God does not change. He cannot be immortal one moment and mortal the next. God cannot be a Spirit and be flesh and blood.
Secondly this is not a paradox. A paradox is something that appears to be impossible yet proves itself to be possible. An example of a paradox is the belief held for years that, according to the then believed laws of physics, bumble bees could not fly. Yet bumble bees DID fly. This paradox existed because our understanding of nature continues to expand and further understanding resolved the paradox. This does not hold true with laws of reason and logic. There are absolute truths based on logic that do not change. 2 + 2 will always equal 4. There are no square circles. Black does not equal white ect. In the same way opposites cannot be equal. Jesus cannot being temptable and non-temptable at the same time. Jesus cannot be faillable and non-failable.
Simply put the doctrine of the dual nature of Christ cannot be expressed without causing contradictions. It cannot be stated in a meaningful way. We can recite the words but our minds cannot understand them in any logical way free of contradictions. It would be like saying something is a square and a circle at the same time. Logic does not permit such a conclusion.

STRIKE TWO

Another problem with the dual nature concept arises when considering if Jesus is the same as the rest of humanity. The very essence of humanity is it’s single human nature. If you change the nature of a man, you change that man into a different creature. If the doctrine of the dual nature of Christ is true and Christ's two natures cannot be seperated, then he is fundamentally different then the rest of mankind, since we have only our single human nature and make up. This makes Jesus a different creature then the rest of Humanity. It makes him non human. Followers of this doctrine can state time and again that Jesus is fully human, but the belief that He has a different nature makes Him different. An augmented, dual natuerd Christ is not the same as the rest of humanity. They must, by excepting this doctrine, qualify Jesus’ humanity. This of course contradicts hundreds of very clear scriptures.

STRIKE THREE

This dual nature further begs the question, How is Jesus a pattern for us if he is different in nature then us? We then have to examine every act of Jesus to determine if he did it by virtue of his human nature or his divine nature? When Jesus healed people was it his divine or human nature in action. If we say it was his human nature then we must conclude that humanity has miracle power without God. If his divine nature then how can we do or imitate any of Jesus powerful gifts. After all we have only our human nature! Even though Jesus says “Greater things then this we you do”, we still must question from which nature he did them.
What of Jesus’ resurrection? The most powerful hope and example in the word. Did He resurrect as a man or as a God? What power did it? Of course scripture says God raised Jesus from the dead. This does not solve our dilemma. If Jesus' nature has to be qualified to fullfill the dual nature doctrine and the two natures cannot be seperated, then what was raised from the dead, a God or a man? Because this doctrine makes Jesus different we still must question his ability to be a pattern for us. The fact that God raised a dual nattured God/man from the dead is not an example for those of us that are of a single nature. How do we know that we, of a single nature, will be raised from the dead? Because this dual nature of Christ makes Jesus different, in basic nature, then the rest of humanity, we cannot use his life as an example. This scraps all of the plan of God to raise up others like Christ. How can others become dual natured like Jesus?

So who is Jesus? What was his real nature?

Let’s look at those who are contemporaries of Christ to see their concepts of Jesus.
First there must be clear understanding of the
hebrew standpoint from which Paul and the other apostles wrote. When the Hebrews spoke of the flesh, they were speaking of the natural, physical, material realm in which we live. The Hebrews did not see the flesh as evil but as part of he kingdom of God even as the spiritual realm. They saw no separation into good or bad concerning the spiritual realm and the physical natural realm. When they spoke of something coming in the flesh, they were speaking of it being of the same nature as the rest of the natural realm. It’s nature being one of the natural, physical, material, earthly realm. Early in the history of the church, Greek Philosophy, in particular that of dualism, was introduced and took hold. Dualism teaches that there exist an evil natural realm (flesh) and a spiritual holy realm.
The world of Greek philosophy thought of humanity as by nature imperfect and corrupt — only the invisible, spiritual world of thoughts and godlike forces could be perfect and transcendant. This dualism invaded christianity early in it’s history. Because of this philosophy, the church (for the most part) concluded that Christ could not be of the natural, physical, material, human realm, but must be augmented in some way.
The reality is that into that “so – called” golden age of Greece arose a complete human Man, and a Jewish man at that, (the Jews were not respected by the “more intelectual” Greeks), who claimed to be mankind's revelation of God. “If you have seen me, you have seen the Father.” As the Apostle put it, Jesus of Nazareth was “God revealed in the flesh.” (God revealed in the natural, material, physical realm through a man made in keeping with the natural, physical, material realm)

1 Timothy 3:16
By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness:
He who was revealed in the flesh,
Was vindicated in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Proclaimed among the nations,
Believed on in the world,
Taken up in glory.

This was utter foolishness to the Greek world. The Greeks wanted wisdom/philosophy to tickle their ears; the Jews wanted a powerfull sign from God; but what both got was a Man, who had qualities like other men. He walked, talked, ate, drank, slept, wept, bled, and died just as other men do.

Let's get back to the meaning of the flesh in scripture. Paul often speaks of the flesh. In Philippians 1 verses 19 through 28, we see Paul again using the term “flesh” referring to his life/death in the material/physical realm. This was not an admonition concerning good or bad behavior, but a simple statement concerning his presence in the “flesh” compared to his presence with Christ after death.

19 for I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayers and the provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

20 according to my earnest expectation and hope, that I will not be put to shame in anything, but that with all boldness, Christ will even now, as always, be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death.

21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.

23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;

24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith,

26 so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again.

The Apostle John goes further than simply repeating that Jesus was a man. He states that the teaching that Christ came “in the flesh” is an essential teaching; (1 John 4:3) that any concept which denies that Jesus was a man is “of the Antichrist”. Many will say that they believe Jesus was a man, but then augment and qualify his humanity with concepts of a God/man creature, dual natures , 100% God and 100% man ect. All of these teachings remove Jesus from being fully human. Humans have a single nature. Very simply put, these qualifications to Jesus’ nature have no clear scripture and deny his full humanity. Those who follow this doctrine are dangerously close to teaching an anti-Christ doctrine. In fact it is very aptly named anti-Christ when one considers that the name Christ means the anointed one. Only humanity needs an anointing, not a God. This denotes Jesus' humanity and those that augment his complete humanity fall into the anti-Christ camp.

There are, of course, some differences between Jesus and the rest of humanity, but none effect his nature or makeup
1. He is the “only begotten son of God” Begotten meaning born.(like the rest of humanity)
2. He is direct human heir to the thrown of God.
3. He lived a perfect sinless life.
4. He is the messiah, the Christ.
5. He holds a position in heaven, being the heir, the Christ, and first one to complete God’s plan, that no other human will ever hold.
6. He is the only pattern for the rest of mankind to follow.

Here are just a few of the scriptures that clearly show Jesus is a complete human.
Romans 1/3
concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh,
(here we see his linage as being human according to the flesh. His nature being in keeping with the rest of natural man.)

Romans 9 Verse 3
For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,
( Paul explains that his brethren are his kinsmen because they come according to the flesh as he does. (flesh= coming in the natural physical realm. His nature and makeup was human. The building blocks that came together at his conception were human)

4
who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5
whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
(Here Jesus is described as coming from the fathers according to the flesh. In other words of the same makeup and nature that Paul clarified earlier.)

Hebrews 2
9
But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
10
For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.
11
For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12
saying,
“I WILL PROCLAIM YOUR NAME TO MY BRETHREN,
IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING YOUR PRAISE.”
13
And again,
“I WILL PUT MY TRUST IN HIM “
And again,
“BEHOLD, I AND THE CHILDREN WHOM GOD HAS GIVEN ME.”
14
Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
15
and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
16
For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
17
Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

Notice the very specific things said in this section of scripture —
Verse 9 – Jesus called son of man. Jesus made lower then the angels. (this does not say he was lowered from a higher position, b
ut that his make up was that of being lower then the angels) Crowned with glory and honor because of his suffering and tasted death. A God does not need to be crowned with glory. A God cannot suffer and die. All of these apply to humanity not a God. Scripture states very clearly that it was the man’s death on the cross and not a God’s.
Romans 5:15
But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one MAN, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. (Notice scripture makes a point to differentiate between the Grace of God and the grace of the man Jesus Christ)
Verse 10 – He was perfected by what he suffered. Jesus was born sinless and immature like all other men and like all other men needed to be perfected through suffering. His work brings MANY sons to glory – US -!
Luke 2:52 “And Jesus grew both in wisdom and in stature, gaining favor both with other people and with God.” (Obviously he was not born a perfected God/man.)
Verse 11 – They come from the same Father and for this reason Jesus calls them (humanity) brethren. All humanity are sons of one God including Jesus.
Verse 12 and 13 – Jesus again calls us his brethren
Verse 14 – Jesus shares the same attributes of flesh and blood. Jesus fulfills prophecy of Eve’s seed.
Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”
Verse 15 He is fulfilling his calling of being an example. His death is an example because he is completely human.
Verse 16 – Again pointing to his linage as a descendent of Abraham. His make up was human. A God does not need heed help from another person of God, but a human, descended from Abraham does need it.
Verse 17 – Made like his brethren in ALL THINGS. Not in everything except his nature, but all things! Everything about Jesus was like his brethren. No qualifications or added concepts. Since it is clear that Jesus is in the line of David through Mary, Her DNA must have been present. Jesus calls her mother indicating that She was the source, of the egg, 1/2 of his makeup.
We know that God is His father, therefore in order to not break this previous verse that he was like his brethren in EVERY WAY God must have created a human sperm to fertilize Mary’s egg.

But isn’t Jesus called Lord?
Acts 2:36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ–this Jesus whom you crucified.”

( in most translations there are two distinct ways in which Lord is translated. LORD (all capitols) in the OT is Yahweh the personal name of God. Lord with only the ” L” capitalized in the NT comes from the Greek word kurios. It means master or one in authority. It is not a name for God. Notice that God made him Lord or master over all the earth. This is not a title he has because he is a God, but one awarded him by Yahweh.)

Prophecy foretold of Jesus being like his brethren –
Deut 18/15 (Moses is speaking of Jesus )
The LORD (Yahweh) your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him.
Verse 18 – 'I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.
Verse 19 It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him.
(Jesus is like Moses, HUMAN, and is a prophet, a human calling. This clearly explains how he could speak first person from the Father) (John 8/40, Acts 7/37, Mat 13/57)

Jesus is the first to fulfill God’s plan for man —

Jesus was the example for humanity having the fullness of God dwelling in them and becoming like Christ to the full extant.
Christ —
Colossians 1:19
For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
Colossians 2:9
For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
The rest of humanity —
Ephesians 3:19
and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.
Ephesians 4:13
until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. (How do we measure up to the full stature of Christ? By becoming mature men. This comparison is invalid unless Christ is a man.)

Jesus is called Emanuael which means God is with us. Truthfully God is with us in the person of the Human Jesus Christ. Just as Moses believed he ws in the presence of God when facing the burning bush. Was the bush really ?God? Of course not, but God revealed Himself in the burning bush and Moses recognised it. The Old Testament Priest's recognised God's presence in the Shakina Glory revealed in the Temple. Jesus is the perfect revealing of the Father in a Human. He is the complete example of the Temple (humanity) filled with the Spirit of God! He is one with his Father who is a spirit. He is Spirit filled to the fullest extant. Even today, men who have good and deep relationship with God reveal Him to those around them by their actions and life. From their very being comes a revelation of the goodness of the God that dwells in them. To what ever extant they reveal God to that same extant do we have God with us in their presence.
Jesus is called the “Everlasting Father” because the Father (Yahweh) is revealed in him. Even as Moses bowed before the burning bush and called it God. The bush was not God but Moses recognised a physical revealing of Yahweh in the natural realm residing within the bush. So Thomas could look at Jesus and call Him Lord (master in authority) and God (Yahweh indwelling and being revealed in the man Jesus)

Jesus is again compared to Adam
Gen 3-

4The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die!

5″For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Adam and Eve seeing the fruit was good to eat, set out to meet their own needs. They had freedom to choose and chose to be as God’s deciding for themselves what was right and wrong for them. They chose to make themselves equal with God! They partook of the knowledge of good and evil.

Now we see, in comparison, Jesus and how he acted ——————–

Philippines 2

Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion,

2 make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.

3Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;

4do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.

5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,

6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,

10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

The preceding verses are not about the Godhead, but rather about becoming like Christ.
——– Jesus was in the form of God. Created in the image and likeness of God like all other men. He was a complete man in his makeup. Yet Jesus also had no sin and therefore had the ability to have the fullness of God dwelling in him. Paul is specific in his use of the word “form”. If he had wanted to say Jesus was a God he could have simply said Jesus was a God! He acted in complete agreement with His Father’s characteristics and therefore had a form of God. When Jesus appeared, he appeared as a man. This was not what the Jews expected. They expected a great sign and wonder and got instead a man in appearance and make up. Jesus knew who he was. He knew he was the heir to the thrown of God and a son of God with full authority of the Father given to Him. Even with this knowledge and power, Jesus did not seek equality with God and did not use his freedom or power to meet his own needs. Satan tempted him in this very area. “Make the stones into bread”. Most of us would have opened a bakery, yet Jesus refused to use his authority to meet his own needs. Instead he poured out his needs and desires even unto death for the benefit of his brethren and the glory of God. He even said (based on his authority) he could call down 10 legions of angels, but refused to use his power, authority or rights in opposition to the will of God. For this reason was he exalted. He was not exalted into his own glory but to the glory of the Father. Though he had all authority in heaven and earth and exercised a form of God he did not use it for his own needs or even to save himself. (First Adam compared to last Adam- Man compared to Man)

John 5/19 …. Truly, truly I say to you. the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son does in like manner…..
John 5/30…. I can do nothing on my own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I do not seek my own will, but the will of Him who sent me…….. He never claimed to have his own power in heaven and earth. He said it was given to Him.
Matthew 11/27… My Father has handed over everything to me…. This means the power Jesus exhibited was not his, but the Father’s.

1 Corinthians 15:20
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
1 Corinthians 15:23
But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

Again Christ resurrection is an example and a first fruit because of his humanity. The first to complete God’s plan for man.

Jesus rebukes the Jewish teachers for not being like Him. It must be understood that when Jesus talked to the leaders he only need quote a small portion of the Old Testament and they would immediately understand it’s context in whole. This was a common tactic amongst Rabbi’s in debating with others. Jesus further traps the Pharasees in their own words and uses their own proclimation that the word cannot be broken. Here Jesus quotes Psalm 82 in part, but the implication of the context is clear to the Jews.

In this portion of scripture Jesus Himself shows that God expects us all to be Gods in the way we deal with our brothers. We are all to be in the form of God in our lives and actions.

John 10

23And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.

24Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30I and my Father are one.

31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (Notice Jesus is very specific as to who the deity is that dwells in him)

39Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,

Psalm 82
1God takes His stand in His own congregation;
He judges in the midst of the rulers.
2How long will you judge unjustly
And show partiality to the wicked? Selah.
3Vindicate the weak and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and destitute.
4Rescue the weak and needy;
Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.
5They do not know nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are sons of the Most High.
7″Nevertheless you will die like men
And fall like any one of the princes.”
8Arise, O God, judge the earth!
For it is You who possesses all the nations.

— Remember that the Hebrews wrote and taught in concrete alegorical ways. In Psalm 82- Yahweh calls them sons (humanity) of the Most High God. In John 10 Jesus quotes this verse. Again rebuking the pharasees because they are not Gods in their fulfilling of God’s character toward their fellow men. Jesus compares their character and their actions to those of God that are revealed in Himself. He shows that in his character and actions toward his brethren he and his Father are one! The fact that Jesus states He and His Father are one is not proof of a triune God or else He could not pray as he does in John Chapter 17. Notice very clearly that Jesus prays that we are to be one with Yahweh and Himself in the same manner as He and Yahweh are one.
1Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
( His purpose to glorify the Father not himself)

2even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
(Authority over all flesh? Humanity! His power was not his own but was given him by the father)

3″This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(To know the one true God and in addition to Him to know Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ who came at the fathers will.)

4″I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.
(Jesus glorified the Father and accomplished the Father’s will. His own will was in submission to His Father.)

5″Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
(Jesus had glory set aside for him from the beginning of time. Just as the plan of God was with God from the beginning, so were the rewards of the fulfillment. — notice it does not say Jesus was with him from the beginning, but that the glory for Jesus was with God.)

6″I have manifested You
r name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
(Jesus again gives the credit to the Father for the men he has ministered to.)

7″Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You;
(Again Jesus does not claim to have possesed the knowledge, but gave credit to the Father)

8for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that they came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.
(Credit to the Father)

9″I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;

10and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.
(His followers belong to the Father not him. Jesus also shows his relationship as a son of God in that all the Father posseses is his.)

11″I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.
(Jesus prays that we have the same relationship with the Holy Father as he did. In order for this to happen, we must be of the same nature as Jesus!)

12″While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

13″But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves.

14″I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
(Jesus gives the Father’s word, not his own)

15″I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.

16″They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
(Jesus again compares himself to his followers)

17″Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.

18″As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
(Jesus says even as He himself was sent so we are sent. This clearly denies the statements that Jesus was literaly sent from Heaven. Otherwise the same must be said of His followers. In fact the word “Apostle” means “sent one”. Jesus’ life was orchestrated and directed by God. His work and His being sent to the house of Israel was from God in heaven. In like manner we as Christians in our work that is led by God are sent from heaven.)

19″For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.

20″I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;
(All these prayers and statements apply to everyone)

21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
(Jesus specifies his oneness with God and states that it is the Father that dwells in him, not the second person of a triune godhead)

22″The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;
(How many times does he need say it. We are to have the same relationship with Yahweh. Jesus says the Glory the Father gave to Him, He gives to us!)

23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
( Jesus says the Father is in him)

24″Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

Jesus prays for us to be in the same place as he is. Jesus was still on the earth and yet speaks of them seeing his glory. Jesus again specifies that the Glory He has comes from the Father. It is not His own. Yahweh also lives out of our linear time frame so could easily love Christ befor his actual birth on earth or it is possible that Christ did live in heaven before his birth. Perhaps we all do! This is not evidence that He is a God.)

25″O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me;

26and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

What I believe is very clear in scripture and needs no outside terms or qualifications to understand it. There is nothing ambigous or mystical about it. Nothing that must be accepted by faith without clear scripture. Nothing that demands non rational statements or is illiogical. In fact my belief can be clearly explained using only scripture with no outside wordage at all.

Deut 4:6
“Hear, O Israel! The LORD (Yahweh) is our God, the LORD is one! (In most translations LORD all in capitols signifies the personal name of God, Yahweh)

John 4:24
“God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Numbers 23:19
” God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good? (In the NASB Jesus is refered to as the Son of Man over 87 times. Most times by Jesus himself.)

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus, (MAN = Anthropos (Gr) can only mean human. Not an augmented humanity with a dual nature but simply human)

Heb 2/17
Therefore, He had to be MADE LIKE HIS BRETHREN IN ALL THINGS, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

Hebrews 4/15
For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things AS WE ARE, yet without sin.

John 14/9 and 10
Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
10″Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and THE FATHER IS IN ME? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the FATHER ABIDING IN ME does His works.

Acts 10/38 You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

Acts 2/36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord (Kurios Gr.) and Christ–this Jesus whom you crucified.”
For He (Yahweh) has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the MAN he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”
(Lord, capitol “L” , small ”ord”, In the Greek, Kurios = Master or one in authority, much like the use in feudal Lord of a castle. Not a name for God. Additionally Christ means anointed one. God needs no anointing but a man does. The word “man” here is also anthropos which can only mean human.)

John 12:44 thru 46
44Then Jesus cried out, “When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45WHEN HE LOOKS AT ME, HE SEES THE ONE WHO SENT ME. 46I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

John 20:17 (Jesus speaking)
“I ascend unto MY FATHER and your Father, and to MY GOD and your God.”

John 14:28 –
“Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: FOR MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I.”

1 Cor. 3:23
– “And ye are Christ's; and CHRIST IS GOD'S.”

1 Cor. 11:3 –
“But I would have you know that t
he head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD.”

Eph 1:3 –
“Blessed be the GOD AND FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ;

Eph 1:17
– “that the GOD OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, THE FATHER OF GLORY, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:”

Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

1 Cor 15:20-28
20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

21For since by a man came death, BY A MAN also came the resurrection of the dead.

22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

26The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

27For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET But when He says, All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.

28When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

The human Jesus Christ has been given full authority over heaven and earth. He is accordingly called Lord or Master, the one in authority. He is in authority over everything except the one who placed him in authority. Yahweh is still supreme. Jesus sits in judgement over the earth and mankind as the perfect example of having the fullness of God in a human and fullfilling God’s plan for man. This position is given for a specific time frame untill all his enemies are put under his feet. At that time He places himself and all of creation into subjection to God. He does not remain as a co-equal person of God (never was one) but rather assumes his position as human heir to the thrown with the mantle that Yahweh placed upon him.

There is one God – Yahweh. He is a Spirit and is Holy. He is the Holy Spirit. There is one “begotten” son of God – Jesus. He is a complete man. Begotten means born or began. Born according to the “flesh” in the physical realm as all men. His God and Father was Yahweh. The building blocks at his conception were human in nature.

Scripture teaches that all of creation is example of the divine nature. Let's look at the biblical meanings of the words “divine” and “nature”.
Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
In this verse the Greek word for “nature” means bringing forth or production. In otherwords, creation itself is proof of God's production and bringing forth of same.
God's creation centers around one object, “Man”. The entire plan and purpose of creation is the development of man into sons of God.
Jesus did not have a seperate “Divine Nature”, anymore then we do. In fact, Scripture states very clearly that we are to partake of the divine nature.
2 Peter 1:2 thru 4
2- Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;

3 -seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.

4 -For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

The word “nature” in this verse is the same as in Romans 1:20. The word “divine in this verse means “Divine Nature”.
So it should read … granted precious and magnificent promises, so that by them we may become partakers of bringing forth the divine nature and/or be part of the divine production. The Compleat Hebrew Bible states it as follows …. come to share in God's nature….. Could there be a more clear description of becoming like Christ? After all, we are heirs and joint heirs with Christ.
Notice the context of II Peter. First this is not a future context but one that applies today. Second this is very specific in pointing out the true knowledge of who Christ is. God (Yahweh) has granted us everything pertaining to life and godliness. How?, Thru the TRUE KONWLEDGE of Him who called us by His own glory and excelence (Jesus). By these (glory and excelence, in otherwords His pattern or example) we have the promise of partaking of the same Divine Nature as Jesus Himself.

Another place “nature” is used is in Hebrews 1:3.
2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

The Compleat Hebrew Bible writes verse 3 like this….. This Son is the radiance of the Sh'khinah, the very expression of God's essence…..
In this section of verse two words are important. Representation and Nature.. Representation carries the meaning of image, a stamp or impression (as in an impression in clay), and nature means substance. Interestingly Jesus is described as being the image of the substance of God. Remember the council of 325 and Constantine? He supplied the crucial formula that Christ and God were of the same substance, but here we see that Christ is the representation or impression of that substance. An impression or representation of God is not literally God.
What is the substance of God if not God Himself. Therefore Jesus is in the image of God, just like us that are created in the image of God. Man compared to Man! If Paul believed that Jesus was God, why not just say so instead of describing him in like manner as the rest of humanity.

Jesus was tempted like all men. Because He lived a sinless life, and never partook of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil, He had the capability to have the “fullness” of God (Yahweh) in Him bodily and calls us to the same. God was with him and anointed him. His love of the brethren and his desire to follow God’s will compelled him to sacrifice his mortal life for their benefit. It was his human, mortal life that was the the sin sacrifice. He compleated the Abramhamic covenant for us.
Jesus is the fullfillment of God’s plan for man He is the second Adam, fullfilling what Adam failed to accompolish. He recieves his power from Yahweh and is in submission to Him. By virtue of his life and death, God’s most precious creation (man) can choose to be made one with Jesus and with his Father, Yahweh. We have the right to partake of the divine nature (the Tree of Life) His life and death gives God’s creation meaning. The deity that resides in Jesus is Yahweh. There is one throne in heaven and seated on that thrown is Jesus. When we see him we will see the Father revealed in the face of the man Jesus Christ.
This understanding also clearifies many other passages which have long been missinterpreted. For example; John 1 and the Logos.

From the beginning Yahweh had a plan to redeem mankind. This description of God’s idea or plan was expressed as the Greek word Logos and later translated into “word” in John Chapter 1.
In John 1:14 we see what many use as proof of Jesus eternal status as a God that became a man.

verse 1
4 – And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,and we beheld His glory, glory as from the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The actual definition of “word”, according to Vines Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words is…. ( a word) as encompassing an idea, a statement, a speech, not the mere name of an object….. In there treatise on the subject they list dozens of scriptures where Logos is used in the above mentioned way. Then as a secondary meaning they use the scriptures in John 1/1 thru 18 and form a completely different meaning then all the rest of scripture. They pull this passage out of general context and give Logos a different meaning then anywhere in scripture. This, unfortunately, is a common practice among those who wish to prove a doctrine not found in clear scripture.
The New Bible Dictionary, which has a clear trinitarian bias, defines Logos as… “a meaningfull discourse, declaration, discourse, subject matter, doctrine, affair, reason , cause, sake and respect. As a gramatical term it means a finite sentence., in logic a factual statement, definition or judgement, in rhetoric a correctly constructed piece of oratory.” Even Trinitarian sources cannot get away from the true meaning of Logos. They even admit that the Logos = Christ doctrine came sometime after the gospels were pened and that scholars have varrying views of the meaning of Logos in this context. Granted this is a difficult scriptural passage to understand, but the definition of Logos is very clear and without doubt.
It is also interesting to note that the term “flesh” is used here. Remember our study on flesh? That flesh indicated to the Hebrews as coming in the natural physical realm.
The word logos is used in many scriptures and always means the same, as example;
Luke 7/7 …for this reason I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you, but just say the word (logos) and my servant will be healed……..
1 Corinthians 14/9 and 19 So unless you utter, speech (Logos) that is clear….. (19) …. five words (logos) with my mind….. ten thousand words (logos) in a tongue……
This definition being true, “word” cannot literally be translated as Jesus or thought of as the proper name Jesus.
Further understanding of the term Logos is made in Revelation 1/2 and again in 1/9 John shows a distinction between The Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus. ….. who bore witness of the word (Logos) of God AND to the testimony of Jesus Christ….. John lists them separately showing a clear distinction between them. This is the same author who wrote the book of John. It seems he is making clear what he wrote in John 1. In other words John says he bore witness to God’s plan, idea, and concept, of the Messiah and (in addition to) bore witness to the life and testimony of the messiah/Jesus himself. The literal Greek says, “who bore witness of the word of the God and the witness of Jesus Christ.” The Complete Hebrew Bible says in Verse 9 “having proclaimed the message (Logos) of God and borne witness to Yeshua.” The reality of the human, Jesus, fulfilled the concept/idea/plan (logos) for the messiah, but the concept/idea/plan/ (logos) is not literally Jesus. The plan of God was revealed in the bodily form or flesh of the person Jesus Christ. A spoken message or expressed idea cannot be a literal person. This passage in John 1 is expressing Yahweh’s foreknowledge and plan. The idea of the Messiah/Jesus has been in existence as long as God himself. The plan of God concerning the Messiah was spoken of in foreknowledge many times in scripture.

There is one passage of scripture that puts much of this subject in perspective clarity. In this passage it points out clearly the desire of the Father for us to understand that there is one God over all including the Messiah. It clearly shows the distinction between the Father of glory (Yahweh) and the Christ (The anointed human) and that this same Messiah (anointed one) has been made Master, Lord and King of the church and when that position of authority was given to him.
Paul is speaking about Jesus and what Yahweh has accomplished through Jesus in Ephesians 1/17 through 23 Paul prays …. that the God (Yahweh) of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of the Glory (Yahweh), may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the true knowledge of Him . (18) I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you may know what is the hope of his calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints. (19) and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might (20) which he brought about in Christ WHEN He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in heavenly places, (21) far above all rule and authority and power and dominion and every name that is named not only in this age but also in the one to come. (22) and He (Yehweh) put all things in subjection under His (Jesus) feet and gave him head over all things to the church (23) which is his (Jesus’) body.

Yahweh had a plan. A Logos which he fulfilled in Christ. Clearly Yahweh is the God of Jesus. Because of Jesus’ inheritance, as a man, there is a great power toward us the saints. When Yahweh raised Jesus from the dead, Jesus was placed in the position of all authority and power in heaven and Earth. (At the right hand is a position of authority not a literal place) At this same time, Yahweh put all things in subjection under Jesus and Jesus was made head of the church. Paul uses the word WHEN to show a particular moment in time when this occured. This moment in time was WHEN Yahweh raised Christ from the dead. This was not an eternal position, but was brought about in Paul’s time, (this age, the time of Christ’s resurrection ) and continues into the future (the age to come)

These scriptures do not paint a picture of a perfect God/man creature sent to earth. Rather a human being who became the fullfillment of God's original plan for mankind. The second Adam.

Jesus grew into the position of Messiah by refusing to partake of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Luke 2/52
And Jesus grew both in wisdom and in stature, gaining favor both with other people and with God. (Complete Jewish Bible)
The word Stature can also be defined as life’s span or age. Mortal men have life spans, not eternal Gods. He learned wisdom as a man, grew up and matured as a man. He ate, drank, slept, walked, and cried like any other human. He had all the common attributes of humanity and lived his life without partaking of the Knowledge of Good and Evil..
Hebrews 5:7 thru 9
7In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety.

8Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.

9And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,

There ae some very interesting terms used in the previous passage.
The use of the term “flesh” again indicates during the time of Jesus' life on Earth in the natural physical realm. The word perfect in verse 9 has the meaning of to bring to an end or compleat. The Compleat Hebrew Bible states it more clearly.
Verse 5 — During Yeshusa's life on earth…..
Verse 9 And after He had been brought to the goal,

[georg]

To ?

Unless you read a bible in a foreign languish, I can't see how any one would think, Jesus did not existed before he became one of us, or that he existed in the Fathers head as a thought, or even that he always existed.
I think the bible is quite clear on the subject;
The Son (Jesus) is the first born of all creation.
God is one God, he has no equal, not three in one.
Only if you don't want to believe the truth, will you come up with all this nonsense.
And of course there are those that figured out there is money to be made by preaching and writing books about lies because, it is evident that people believe lies more than they believe truth.

Georg

[martian]

Quote (georg @ Nov. 13 2009,02:17)

To ? Unless you read a bible in a foreign languish, I can't see how any one would think, Jesus did not existed before he became one of us, or that he existed in the Fathers head as a thought, or even that he always existed. I think the bible is quite clear on the subject; The Son (Jesus) is the first born of all creation. God is one God, he has no equal, not three in one. Only if you don't want to believe the truth, will you come up with all this nonsense. And of course there are those that figured out there is money to be made by preaching and writing books about lies because, it is evident that people believe lies more than they believe truth. Georg

Do you read the bible in a foriegn language or do you read it in the original Hebrew and Greek and that would include understanding the cultures into which it was written.
Far too many people read their English bibles and trust the translations completely without studying the languages for themselves.

secondly few use any sort of proper interpretation rules. They take a word like Logos and give it a completely different meaning then anywhere else in the bible just to satisfy their doctrine. The funny thing is that when you call them on t they ignor it and change the subject.

[Anonymous]

GEORGE-YOU QUOTE;GOD IS ONE GOD, NOT THREE IN ONE UNLESS YOU DONT WANT TO BELEIVE THE TRUTH- WELL YOU MUST NOT WANT TO BELEIVE IT BECAUSE THE BIBLE TELLS YOU THEY ARE ONE!

[Anonymous]

I urge you to read this post, the scripturea are there!Is the deity of Christ biblical?”

Answer: In addition to Jesus’ specific claims about Himself, His disciples also acknowledged the deity of Christ. They claimed that Jesus had the right to forgive sins—something only God can do—as it is God who is offended by sin (Acts 5:31; Colossians 3:13; Psalm 130:4; Jeremiah 31:34). In close connection with this last claim, Jesus is also said to be the one who will “judge the living and the dead” (2 Timothy 4:1). Thomas cried out to Jesus, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28). Paul calls Jesus “great God and Savior” (Titus 2:13) and points out that prior to His incarnation Jesus existed in the “form of God” (Philippians 2:5-8). God the Father says regarding Jesus: “Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever” (Hebrews 1:8). John states that “in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word [Jesus] was God” (John 1:1). Examples of Scriptures that teach the deity of Christ are many (see Revelation 1:17, 2:8, 22:13; 1 Corinthians 10:4; 1 Peter 2:6-8; Psalm 18:2, 95:1; 1 Peter 5:4; Hebrews 13:20), but even one of these is enough to show that Christ was considered to be God by His followers.

Jesus is also given titles that are unique to YHWH (the formal name of God) in the Old Testament. The Old Testament title “redeemer” (Psalm 130:7; Hosea 13:14) is used of Jesus in the New Testament (Titus 2:13; Revelation 5:9). Jesus is called Immanuel—“God with us”—in Matthew 1. In Zechariah 12:10, it is YHWH who says, “They will look on me, the one they have pierced.” But the New Testament applies this to Jesus’ crucifixion (John 19:37; Revelation 1:7). If it is YHWH who is pierced and looked upon, and Jesus was the one pierced and looked upon, then Jesus is YHWH. Paul interprets Isaiah 45:22-23 as applying to Jesus in Philippians 2:10-11. Further, Jesus’ name is used alongside God’s in prayer “Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ” (Galatians 1:3; Ephesians 1:2). This would be blasphemy if Christ were not deity. The name of Jesus appears with God's in Jesus' commanded to baptize “in the name [singular] of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19; see also 2 Corinthians 13:14).

Actions that can be accomplished only by God are credited to Jesus. Jesus not only raised the dead (John 5:21, 11:38-44) and forgave sins (Acts 5:31, 13:38), He created and sustains the universe (John 1:2; Colossians 1:16-17). This becomes even clearer when one considers YHWH said He was alone during creation (Isaiah 44:24). Further, Christ possesses attributes that only deity can have: eternality (John 8:58), omnipresence (Matthew 18:20, 28:20), omniscience (Matthew 16:21), and omnipotence (John 11:38-44).

[NickHassan]

Hi KAT,
Jesus told the Jews the Father was their God[Jn8.54]. Do you disagree with him?

[georg]

Quote (martian @ Nov. 13 2009,02:51)

Quote (georg @ Nov. 13 2009,02:17) To ? Unless you read a bible in a foreign languish, I can't see how any one would think, Jesus did not existed before he became one of us, or that he existed in the Fathers head as a thought, or even that he always existed. I think the bible is quite clear on the subject; The Son (Jesus) is the first born of all creation. God is one God, he has no equal, not three in one. Only if you don't want to believe the truth, will you come up with all this nonsense. And of course there are those that figured out there is money to be made by preaching and writing books about lies because, it is evident that people believe lies more than they believe truth. Georg Do you read the bible in a foriegn language or do you read it in the original Hebrew and Greek and that would include understanding the cultures into which it was written. Far too many people read their English bibles and trust the translations completely without studying the languages for themselves. secondly few use any sort of proper interpretation rules. They take a word like Logos and give it a completely different meaning then anywhere else in the bible just to satisfy their doctrine. The funny thing is that when you call them on t they ignor it and change the subject.

Martian

Understanding of the bible does not come by the ability of knowing Hebrew or Greek, understanding comes from God only.

Pro 2:6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.

Georg

[georg]

Quote (katjo @ Nov. 13 2009,03:25)

GEORGE-YOU QUOTE;GOD IS ONE GOD, NOT THREE IN ONE UNLESS YOU DONT WANT TO BELEIVE THE TRUTH- WELL YOU MUST NOT WANT TO BELEIVE IT BECAUSE THE BIBLE TELLS YOU THEY ARE ONE!

katjo

Jesus said “we”, meaning the Father and him.
You have two totally different beings, the Father is one, and the son is one.
A first grader knows that one and one is two.

Georg

[Author]

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