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Hi Kat,
Who calculated that God had to die to bear all the sins of the world?
Was heaven godless for 3 days?I dont know Nick, Can you figure out everything about God? We are not suppose to be able to, are we?
Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,08:23) After much study of the scriptures and the Jewish culture it has become clear that Jesus could not have pre-existed except in the hidden knowledge of God And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:7-9Was Jesus crucified before the world was created? If Jesus could be said to have been slain from before the creation of the earth then obviously the Glory given to such would be equivalent as forethought and not in a pre-existent context
bodSlain from the foundation of the world means; he knew before he created the world, that one day he would have to die for his creation. Had Jesus not volunteered to become our sacrifice, the world would have never been.
Adam was told, the day you eat off that tree you die; the day he ate off that tree he was as good as dead, sin does not always have the immediate effect, but will always bring death.Georg
Quote (georg @ Nov. 11 2009,14:49) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,08:23) After much study of the scriptures and the Jewish culture it has become clear that Jesus could not have pre-existed except in the hidden knowledge of God And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:7-9Was Jesus crucified before the world was created? If Jesus could be said to have been slain from before the creation of the earth then obviously the Glory given to such would be equivalent as forethought and not in a pre-existent context
bodSlain from the foundation of the world means; he knew before he created the world, that one day he would have to die for his creation. Had Jesus not volunteered to become our sacrifice, the world would have never been.
Adam was told, the day you eat off that tree you die; the day he ate off that tree he was as good as dead, sin does not always have the immediate effect, but will always bring death.Georg
Adam repented and therefore did not die the day he ate of the fruit.(1) Then learnt adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #37)The second point is God made His creation good and why say Jesus VOLUNTEERED he clearly said it was not his will to die for anyone:
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Luke 22:41-43Quote (georg @ Nov. 11 2009,14:49) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,08:23) After much study of the scriptures and the Jewish culture it has become clear that Jesus could not have pre-existed except in the hidden knowledge of God And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:7-9Was Jesus crucified before the world was created? If Jesus could be said to have been slain from before the creation of the earth then obviously the Glory given to such would be equivalent as forethought and not in a pre-existent context
bodSlain from the foundation of the world means; he knew before he created the world, that one day he would have to die for his creation. Had Jesus not volunteered to become our sacrifice, the world would have never been.
Adam was told, the day you eat off that tree you die; the day he ate off that tree he was as good as dead, sin does not always have the immediate effect, but will always bring death.Georg
Hi Georg,
The KJV has led you astray with that verse.
Try other versions.
CF Rev 17Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 11 2009,15:03) Hi BD,
He did die that day.
He did not quite reach 1000 years in age.
God never told him he would live 1000 years but God did teach Adam what a day was teaching him Evening and Morning was a Day. Are you assuming that God was talking about a day that Adam could not comprehend in regards to time? the Fact is the Quran reports correctly that God taught Adam how to repent if he didn't how would anyone have known how to repent to God?Adam taught his children that God was gracious and compassionate the proof is with Cain, did he get punished for commiting Murder although God later established a life for a life but with cain?
Genesis 4 (King James Version)
10And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
11And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
12When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
13And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
14Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
15And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
He asked God for mercy and received mercy, yet most don't understand that God is Often Forgiving, Often Merciful, Often Compassionate
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 11 2009,15:53) Hi BD,
Was Adam being taught?
Is it written?
Of course Adam was being taught, NickGenesis 2 (King James Version)
18And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
The Quran clarifies the entire story
Sura #2 | Madina
29 It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.
30 Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: “I will create a vicegerent on earth.” They said: “Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?” He said: “I know what ye know not.”
31 And He taught Adam the names of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: “Tell me the names of these if ye are right.”
32 They said: “Glory to Thee, of knowledge We have none, save what Thou Hast taught us: In truth it is Thou Who art perfect in knowledge and wisdom.”Quote (katjo @ Nov. 11 2009,14:20) Of course Jesus pre-existed! the Bible tells us that Jesus was more than a prophet, a good teacher, or a godly man.
the Bible says; Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” the Jews’ reaction was “‘We are not stoning you for any of these, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God’” (John 10:33). They understood Jesus’ statement. Jesus never said to them “I did not claim to be God.” John 8:58 “‘I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’” Again, the Jews took up stones to stone Jesus (John 8:59). Old Testament name for God –I AM(Exodus 3:14). Why else would the Jews want to stone Him? if He had not said something they believed to be blasphemous.
John 1;1“the Word was God.” John 1:14 says “the Word became flesh.” clearly says that Jesus is God in the flesh. Thomas called Him “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus didnt correct him. The apostle Paul describes Him as, “…our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13). Peter says the same, “…our God and Savior Jesus Christ” (2 Peter 1;1) Old Testament shows His deity, “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6).
If Jesus is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the whole world. Only God could pay such a penalty. Jesus had to be God so that He could pay our debt. And he also had to be man so He could die. Salvation is available only through faith in Jesus Christ, our only salvation. Colossians tells us all things were created by Jesus.By Him and for hIm. He was before all things. Right there shows you He pre-existed. Yet Gen. tells us God created the heavens and the earth!God Bless You all!
I will only deal with a few of your scriptures. Just enough to show the dishonesty in your approach. If John 10:30 proves Jesus is God then so are we according to —John 17:11 ”I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.
Do we become part of the Trinity?
You ignore context. For example Jesus says to the Jews
“Ye are Gods”. It is spoken very clearly. Does that make us literally Gods? Of course not. Jesus is using a tactic called a Remez common among Hebrew Rabbis. In a remez a scripture is quoted in part and the learned listeners would understand it in it’s entire context. In this case Jesus is quoting Psalm 82 in which YHWH is rebuking the leaders of Israel for not taking care of the orphans and widows and allowing injustice to continue. He tells them they are to function as God would toward the people. Jesus is telling the leaders of his time the same thing. That is why they set to kill him. They were angered by his pointing out their failures to function as God toward the people.
You claim that Jesus invokes the personal name of YHWH in his answer to the jews. There is no evidence whatsoever that Jesus used the Hebrew word Eyeh. The oldest text of the Greek new testament all letters are in capitols. The uppercase letters in our English bibles was made up in the KJV and added to the text.
Secondly, even if Christ meant to use the name of God it is easily explainable by the context. Christ himself claims to be a prophet in many places and in this context the Hebrews were justifying themselves by their heritage in Abraham. YHWH speaks thru Jesus and points out that before Abraham was God. He was saying that they should be justifying themselves by God and not by their ancestry in Abraham.Isaiah 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;And the government will rest on His shoulders;And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
The word “Name” in this verse if the Hebrew word “shem” which literally means character or character trait. This verse is prophecy about Christ having the character of God not that he is literally God.Thomas looks at Christ and sees his “Lord” which means master or teacher and in him sees the Father. No big mystery.
13looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
The comma after “savior was added later on to the text. There is no punctuation marks of any kind in the original text. The pause or comma could be as correctly be added after the word “God” Which would make the verse sound completely different. The word “our” is only implied in the verse and can also be implied prior to the word savior.
13looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God , and our Savior Christ Jesus,To even imply that the Judeo-Christian God can die is simply nonsense. You change the very nature of God to satisfy your doctrine. Do you honestly believe that your sins are so great that God has to die for you? It is up to God what sacrifice he will except and that would still have to fall within the parameters of his permanent nature. God is immortal and cannot die.
martian………..Good post, i see it that way also, GOD was (IN) Jesus, but that did not make Jesus a GOD. It was GOD who spoke through Jesus' mouth and said” destory this temple and in three day (I) GOD shall raise (it) up” , God's presents was (IN) Jesus It was HIM speaking (through) Jesus. God spoke in times past through the prophets, But in these latter days has (SPOKEN) to us through a SON. (GOD THE FATHER WAS (IN) JESUS, VIA HIS SPIRIT. GOD (IS) SPIRIT AND CAN COHABIT WITH US. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………….gene
Quote (georg @ Nov. 12 2009,02:54) I can not talk to people unwilling to listen, but willingly reject scripture. Georg
scripture can only be understood within the culture and language in which it was written.It is not a matter of me making stuff up. It is a matter of careful study of the culture and thinking of the Hebrews of the first century. You have taken a literal approach to an English translation because it fits your preconceived idea of doctrine and went no further to ascertain what Thomas might have meant by what he said.
A careful study of the Eastern thinking mind and culture shows that the Hebrews called things by their function and not by their appearance. This is why YHWH in Psalms 82 and Jesus in john 10 say that the leaders are Gods. It is a matter of their function and not their appearance. Though the Text in John is written in Greek it must still be understood as the Hebrews would understand it in their culture.
There are literally hundreds of names for God in the OT.
Here is a brief list of some of the major names of God as found in the Hebrew text. Notice the functional aspect of these names. Rather then an abstract construction or definition God is described by His function.1. God (Heb. Elohim): often regarded the plural of majesty for God in the OT, the name signifies speaks of his role as the transcendent Creator of all that exists (Gen. 1:2). One key understanding of the Hebrew language is that a plural noun does not mean literally plural but is used to show an over abundance of the function of the noun in question. The majesty of God is then emphasized.
2. God Most High (Heb. El-Elyon): This name indicates Gods’ superior position above all the other gods of the nations (Gen. 14:18-20).
3. LORD (Heb. YHWH or Yahweh or Jehovah): The “I AM” God of the burning bush episode in Moses’ call to deliver Israel from slavery in Egypt (Exod. 3:14-15). The name signified God would be an inexhaustible resource for accomplishing all that he had charged Moses to do. The name is also associated with God’s covenant with Israel and speaks to the personal and relational nature of his character.
4. Lord (Heb. Adonai): Revealed God as owner and master of all his creation (Josh. 3:11).
5. God Almighty (Heb. El-Shaddai): The name recalls God’s power in creating and sustaining all life (Gen. 17:1). The name literally means “God of the mountains” and later it became associated with the awesome display of divine might at Mt. Sinai (Exod. 19).
6. God Everlasting (Heb. El-Olam): This name emphasizes God’s immensity and eternality (Gen. 21:33).
7. God, the One Who Sees (Heb. El-Roeh): The name reveals God’s beneficent omniscience, a God who sees the needs of his people and cares enough to respond with help and deliverance (Gen. 16:13).
8. God of the Covenant (Heb. El-Berith): A reminder of God’s immanence as a covenant maker with humanity, his faithfulness as a covenant keeper, and the security found in relationship with God (Judg. 9:46).
9. God, the God of Israel (Heb. El-Elohe-Israel): The names attests God’s sovereignty and providential watch and care over Israel as his elect people (Gen. 33:19-20).
10. The LORD our Provision (Heb. YHWH/Yahweh-Yireh or Jehovah Jireh): A name that witnesses God’s ability to sustain the faithful in trial and testing (Gen. 22:13-14).
11. The LORD Heals (Heb. YHWH/Yahweh-Rapha): A name revealing God’s potent curative powers to overcome sin and disease in the fallen creation (Exod. 15:26).
12. The LORD our Banner (Heb. YWWH/Yahweh-Nissi): A reminder that God himself goes before his people in battle and in all of life (Exod. 17:15).
13. The LORD is Peace (Heb. YHWH/Yahweh-Shalom): The righteous may rest secure in God (Judg. 6:24).
14. The LORD our Shepherd (Heb. YHWH/Yahweh-Ra’ah): The most poignant of all the divine names—God tends to his people like a shepherd for his sheep (Ps. 23:1).
15. The LORD our Righteousness (Heb. YHWH/Yahweh-Tsidkenu): The name exalts the perfection and impeccable character of God (Jer. 23:6).
16. The LORD is Present (Heb. YHWH/Yahweh-Shammah): The name affirms the omnipresence of God as the personal Creator and Redeemer of the world and all people (Ezek. 48:35).
17.The LORD of Hosts (Heb. YHWH/Yahweh-Sabaoth): The name designates God as the creator and leader of the angel armies of heaven (1 Sam. 17:45).
Jeff Benner of the Ancient Hebrew Research Center says it in this way.
“Another example of Greek thought would be the following description of a common pencil: “it is yellow and about 8 inches long”. A Hebrew description of the pencil would be related to its function such as “I write words with it”. Notice that the Hebrew description uses the verb “write” while the Greek description uses the adjectives “yellow” and “long”. Because of Hebrew's form of functional descriptions, verbs are used much more frequently then adjectives.”The Hebrew leaders were expected to function as God toward the people and so God said in exasperation “Don’t you know that Ye are Gods?” (Psalms 82)
Jesus points out the same truth to the Hebrew leaders of his time. (John 10)
Thomas, acting and speaking within his culture, looking at Christ called him by His function. “Lord” meaning master or teacher and “God” meaning the manner in which he functioned.Quote (martian @ Nov. 12 2009,04:05) Quote (georg @ Nov. 12 2009,02:54) I can not talk to people unwilling to listen, but willingly reject scripture. Georg
scripture can only be understood within the culture and language in which it was written.
MartianI disagree, scripture interprets itself, understanding comes from God, only.
Georg
Quote (georg @ Nov. 12 2009,04:24) Quote (martian @ Nov. 12 2009,04:05) Quote (georg @ Nov. 12 2009,02:54) I can not talk to people unwilling to listen, but willingly reject scripture. Georg
scripture can only be understood within the culture and language in which it was written.
MartianI disagree, scripture interprets itself, understanding comes from God, only.
Georg
If you truly believe that then let me ask you a couple of questions.
Do you believe that the term “word”(Logos) is literally Jesus in John 1?If so then why do you not let scripture interpret scripture by accepting the meaning of Logos in the 350 times it is used in scripture other then John 1. That meaning being expressed idea.
If John intended for the term “Word” to be defined as Jesus in John 1 why would he differentiate so clearly between the two in Revelation.Revelation 1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,
2who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.Revelation 1:9 I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
The term “and” in these verses caries the meaning of “in addition to”
God had a plan or Idea from the beginning. That Idea was to create children that would be like him in character. To do this he set up the Earth with all of it’s character building trials. In order for us to see what the character of God looks like in a human we have our perfect example in Christ. John was witness to both the plan/idea of God and, in addition, to the fulfillment of that plan in Christ. In John 1 the idea/plan of God became flesh and dwelt among us for our example.
This is much like my wife and I having a plan to have children. Our idea/plan became flesh when my son was born.revelation does come from God but God also tells us to study to show ourselves approved. Without proper study there can be only limited understanding.
Hi Martian,
So you define it as an EXPRESSED idea then interpret it as a plan?
Was this idea or plan with God?Georg,
A good example of the worth of understanding scripture through the culture is in the post 782 above. Without understanding the culture there is no sensible understanding for YHWH and Jesus telling the Isralites that they are Gods.
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