Jesus did not pre-exist

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick….. I think martian meant we all (COME) future tense not Came past tense. None of us have reached it yet but we should be growing in grace and knowledge. Jesus is indeed the DOOR and the WAY, that was martians point. IMO

peace and love………………………gene

[NickHassan]

G,
That is not what he said so why would you presume to speak for him?

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick……….And why should presume that martian does mean that , do you think he is so stupid as to not know none of us has reached perfection yet.  I think you just want to argue Because he does not agree with all you dogmas. You could have just ask for him to clarify what he meant, to see where he was coming from, and then give you points on the subject. Why come off so hostile most of the time, If you cant use reason then what good are you here, Even GOD said come lets (reason) together. No one need your snide remarks Nick. All you do by that is run people off the site. martian has offered a lot of good incites into the word of GOD. IMO

gene

[NickHassan]

G,
Are you martian?

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 09 2009,04:41)

Quote (martian @ Nov. 09 2009,03:55) Quote (georg @ Nov. 09 2009,03:01) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,16:33) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,21:33) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,08:28) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:33) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,07:30) http://cdelph.org/jesus.html The sight and post above is proof that men who know nothing of the Hebrew or Greek set out to make themselves prophets of their own and speak things that are not true and contrary to the clear teachings of Jesus! WJ “I WILL MAKE HIM My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth” (Psalm 89:27). How do you understand this verse? If he was always the firstborn of creation why is God saying he will make him His firstborn? The scripture proves my point! Jesus is the only One “monogenes” Son of God who came from heaven becoming the first and only one to be born into this world from heaven! WJ Why does it say “I will” instead of “He is” Because Psalm 89:27 was written before he left heaven and took on the likeness of sinful flesh and was found in fashion as a man. Dah! Phil 2:6-8 I think you are getting me mixed up with others that hold that Jesus was the “firstborn” of creation “meaning he came out of Gods womb” before creation. I do not believe Jesus was born and then born again. He was always with the Father in the “form of God”. But do not let those words confuse you, because the Father is also in the “form of God”!   WJ W.J.  When I read some other Scripture it says this Col. 1:15 “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation,' And in Rev.3:14 ….”These says the Amen the Faithful an rue Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God. I do agree with the other Scripture you give.  But this Scripture tell me that He had a Beginning. Is that not so? Peace and Love Irene The question becomes when did “He” begin? As you have pointed out Christ has preeminence over the rest of creation. He is the firstborn from the dead. That cannot happen until after his death. Without Christ all of Creation loses it's purpose. this is why he is the first of creation. He is preeminent. He is the reason fro creation. He is the fulfillment of God's plan. The first human to escape the second death and become one with God. His mantle as the messiah opened the door for others to follow the same path as he. That plan and that door is the reason for creation. God's plan to develop sons and daughters with his character and heart. Christ the firstborn son and all others his brothers. Brothers because we are all human and all came the same way to perfection. Hi M, So some yet living on earth have reached perfection?

Perhaps not yet but the bride of Christ will attain perfection. You may not agree, but it may also depend on your definition of perfection.

[NickHassan]

Hi M,
I am very imperfect but the bride WILL come to perfection I agree.

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 09 2009,07:19)

Hi M, I am very imperfect but the bride WILL come to perfection I agree.

One must also know that Elohiym is just and will do what is right. There are those in the OT that will be in the bride. They were perfect within the light they had.
For example Job –
Job 1:8
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

[NickHassan]

Hi M,
So God sees perfection sometimes where we see only weakness and failure?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,16:25)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,21:43) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,07:56) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:44) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,07:34) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:31) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,07:20) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:01) Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,02:02) Did Christ's preexistance in any way influence his ability to be perfected? How about to overcome sin or heal or do other miracles? If so how do we accomplish these things without the influence of preexistance? Exactly! It seems to me Pre-existence is most important to those who want to dehumanize Jesus and therefore justify their failings Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,02:02) Did Christ's preexistance in any way influence his ability to be perfected? How about to overcome sin or heal or do other miracles? If so how do we accomplish these things without the influence of preexistance? We have the same Spirit Jesus had. So therefore your point is fallacious because you and I still have sin and can never be what Jesus was in this life! Jesus had no sin and never did sin. Why? Because of who he was and where he came from he had the Spirit “Without measure“! Did he have an advantage over us? You bet he did! For it is through Jesus that the works of the devil are destroyed and for that purpose he was manifested! All those who serve Jesus as just a mere man are putting their trust in the arm of flesh and therfore are not serving God at all! WJ He had no advantage over Adam and thus is called the 2nd Adam. Adam was formed without a sinful nature and actually so are all humans. If Jesus was tempted then sin was in him and he overcame sin. There can be no temptation without sin notice the scriptures say that God cannot be tempted with evil. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: James 1:12-14 So Jesus having the “Spirit without Measure” did not have an advantage? Wrong! WJ “Spirit without measure”? Context and scripture please. John 3 34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. God sent many has He not? Not having the Spirit without measure! No, he has Only One (monogenes) Son! WJ Then why does the scriptures say this Psalm 2:6-8 (King James Version) 6Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Acts 13:32-34 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. 1 Corinthians 4:14-16 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? Hebrews 1:4-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 1 Peter 1:2-4 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 1 John 5:17-19 Now what were you saying about being begotten? So has begotten you and if he has when did He do so? Hi all! Again we see the Muslem using the selection process to make an invalid point. Jesus is the “only monogenes” Son of God! The word “monogenes” was never used for an adopted Son of God! “For God so loved the world that he gave “his one and only (monogenēs) Son“, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 1:14 You do understand what “One and Only” means right? Jesus was the only one born that was given the Spirit without measure! Think about that! God also has the Spirit without measure!   Its really sad to see how men try to make themselves equal to Jesus and bring him down to their level. Very carnal, fleshly and proud indeed! Jesus preexisted, and John testified of it… John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘”He who comes after me has surpassed me because **he was before me**.’ John 1:15 John the Baptist was born in this world before Jesus the Word that was with God and was God came in the flesh! John 1:1, 14, 18 WJ

Does One and Only son mean He never had another son or will have another son or does it relate to the time he was sent?

When God said that david was his son what did he mean? Or when he said Solomon was his son, what did He mean?

BTW, Why is Adam called his son in the scriptures.

Also, BTW, Why keep throwing the word Muslim out there as a form of defense of a weak
position.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (martian @ Nov. 09 2009,07:23)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 09 2009,07:19) Hi M, I am very imperfect but the bride WILL come to perfection I agree. One must also know that Elohiym is just and will do what is right. There are those in the OT that will be in the bride. They were perfect within the light they had. For example Job – Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

You are right! If we could not be perfect Jesus would not have told us to be perfect and perfect in obedience is what we need to be.

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Jesus was never the only son.

He was unique as the first man to be reborn by God's Spirit.
He is thus the firstborn of the dead.

We can follow him into that sonship as adopted sons baptised into him.
Sons of the resurrection

[martian]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 09 2009,08:13)

Quote (martian @ Nov. 09 2009,07:23) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 09 2009,07:19) Hi M, I am very imperfect but the bride WILL come to perfection I agree. One must also know that Elohiym is just and will do what is right. There are those in the OT that will be in the bride. They were perfect within the light they had. For example Job – Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? You are right! If we could not be perfect Jesus would not have told us to be perfect and perfect in obedience is what we need to be.

Obedient to what? The commandments?

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
Only the Spirit of God can make us like Jesus and His God.
There is no access to that grace outside of Jesus.
Islam is a false trail.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (martian @ Nov. 09 2009,08:44)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 09 2009,08:13) Quote (martian @ Nov. 09 2009,07:23) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 09 2009,07:19) Hi M, I am very imperfect but the bride WILL come to perfection I agree. One must also know that Elohiym is just and will do what is right. There are those in the OT that will be in the bride. They were perfect within the light they had. For example Job – Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? You are right! If we could not be perfect Jesus would not have told us to be perfect and perfect in obedience is what we need to be. Obedient to what?  The commandments?

Obedience to God preceded the commandments. Isn't it true that for Adam to have been perfect was for him to not eat the fruit?

Obedience to God is perfection.

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
A fine philosophy that must give you much comfort.
Everyman imagines his own righteousness is sufficient.

But your faithful obedience must now be to His Son.[Jn3, Jn14]

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 09 2009,13:01)

Hi BD, A fine philosophy that must give you much comfort. Everyman imagines his own righteousness is sufficient. But your faithful obedience must now be to His Son.[Jn3, Jn14]

The doctrine that Jesus taught was not his own Nick, I thought you knew that.

Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
John 7:15-17

I obey the doctrine of God they came through Jesus Christ, do you?

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Romans 6:15-17

I serve God and I obey God unto righteousness, do you?

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Romans 16:25-27

The Commandment of the everlasting God? Is that Jesus, Nick?

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hebrews 5:7-9

Jesus learned obedience? But you say the one he learned to be obedient to I should not be obedient to?

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
Her was not always anointed and was kept sinless by the discipline of his Father.
Believe in God. Believe also in me.Jn14

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 09 2009,16:33)

Hi BD, Her was not always anointed and was kept sinless by the discipline of his Father. Believe in God. Believe also in me.Jn14

Yes Nick BELIEVE in GOD and also believe in Jesus.

Believing in God does not always entail believing in Jesus if it were so ALL Israel wouldn't be Saved:

Isaiah 45:17-18 (Young's Literal Translation)

17Israel hath been saved in Jehovah, A salvation age-during! Ye are not ashamed nor confounded Unto the ages of eternity!

18For thus said Jehovah, Creator of heaven, He is God, Former of earth, and its Maker, He established it — not empty He prepared it, For inhabiting He formed it: `I [am] Jehovah, and there is none else.

But believing in Jesus shows belief in God, believing in Moses shows belief in God, believing in Muhammad shows belief in God.

This whole Universe, the whole Creation was made because of God. You divide your attention I focus mine.

You love Jesus but tell me if Jesus told you to disobey God what would you do?

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
Islamic rejection of the appointed king and lord is to be expected.
They try to find salvation through other imaginary doors.

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,13:44)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 09 2009,08:13) Quote (martian @ Nov. 09 2009,07:23) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 09 2009,07:19) Hi M, I am very imperfect but the bride WILL come to perfection I agree. One must also know that Elohiym is just and will do what is right. There are those in the OT that will be in the bride. They were perfect within the light they had. For example Job – Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? You are right! If we could not be perfect Jesus would not have told us to be perfect and perfect in obedience is what we need to be. Obedient to what?  The commandments?

Romans 6:15-16 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey [hypakoē], his servants ye are to whom ye obey [hypakoē]; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience [hypakoē] unto righteousness?

And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him. 2Corinthians 4:17

[Author]

Posts