Jesus did not pre-exist

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:31)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,07:20) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:01) Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,02:02) Did Christ's preexistance in any way influence his ability to be perfected? How about to overcome sin or heal or do other miracles? If so how do we accomplish these things without the influence of preexistance? Exactly! It seems to me Pre-existence is most important to those who want to dehumanize Jesus and therefore justify their failings Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,02:02) Did Christ's preexistance in any way influence his ability to be perfected? How about to overcome sin or heal or do other miracles? If so how do we accomplish these things without the influence of preexistance? We have the same Spirit Jesus had. So therefore your point is fallacious because you and I still have sin and can never be what Jesus was in this life! Jesus had no sin and never did sin. Why? Because of who he was and where he came from he had the Spirit “Without measure“! Did he have an advantage over us? You bet he did! For it is through Jesus that the works of the devil are destroyed and for that purpose he was manifested! All those who serve Jesus as just a mere man are putting their trust in the arm of flesh and therfore are not serving God at all! WJ He had no advantage over Adam and thus is called the 2nd Adam. Adam was formed without a sinful nature and actually so are all humans. If Jesus was tempted then sin was in him and he overcame sin. There can be no temptation without sin notice the scriptures say that God cannot be tempted with evil. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: James 1:12-14

So Jesus having the “Spirit without Measure” did not have an advantage?

Wrong!

WJ

[bodhitharta]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,07:32)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:25) God, by His spirit, descended to earth to provide one of the human race capable of conquering sin So you admit when Jesus said he descended from heaven he was claiming to be God? How True!

He descended as a word from God and Jesus was made flesh and God was with him.

[martian]

In order for Christ to be our example he must be human. Completely human just like us.
This does not mean that God became a man for that is contrary to the nature of the judeo christian God.

several points to consider.
1. God cannot lie. His standard of right and wrong does not change. He cannot say something is true today and not true tomorrow.
Abraham knew this and even when confronted with slaying Isaac, Abraham knew that God would have to raise him from the dead because of the promises made by God about Isaac.
God can never again send a worldwide flood because He made a promise against it.

Heb.6
13For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself,
14saying, “I WILL SURELY BLESS YOU AND I WILL SURELY MULTIPLY YOU.”
15And so, having patiently waited, he obtained the promise.
16For men swear by one greater than themselves, and with them an oath given as confirmation is an end of every dispute.
17In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath,
18so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us.

2. Can God stop being God or stop existing? God is infinite. The morality of God does not change. His character does not change. Attributes of that character are holiness, truthfulness, love, mercy, and justice. The nature of God is infinite, meaning no end. God is the only being in the universe that is absolute in His character. He is the ultimate of perfection. God cannot cease to exist. He is self sustaining in His existence. God is eternal and cannot die.

3. God is not free to act contrary to His character. His commands and actions are grounded in what is ultimately and eventually good and righteous. Because we cannot know or see everything it may appear at times that God breaks this attribute but it always turns out to be for the good.

4. God cannot sin or be tempted to sin. Holiness is an absolute in God’s nature and cannot change.

5. God is not arbitrary. Everything that God does has purpose. God’s creation (including man) has a purpose. Men may fail to find their purpose, but that does not mean they were created without one. In the same way God’s plans have purpose and function as God designed them. The purpose or “Fruit” of God’s creation is the perfecting of His children into beings with which He can have fellowship. Children who have all of God’s character possible within a human being. All of God’s plans center around this single goal. If we are following a plan that does not produce this kind of fruit, it is not the fault of God’s plan it is that we are following a plan other then God’s.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,07:34)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:31) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,07:20) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:01) Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,02:02) Did Christ's preexistance in any way influence his ability to be perfected? How about to overcome sin or heal or do other miracles? If so how do we accomplish these things without the influence of preexistance? Exactly! It seems to me Pre-existence is most important to those who want to dehumanize Jesus and therefore justify their failings Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,02:02) Did Christ's preexistance in any way influence his ability to be perfected? How about to overcome sin or heal or do other miracles? If so how do we accomplish these things without the influence of preexistance? We have the same Spirit Jesus had. So therefore your point is fallacious because you and I still have sin and can never be what Jesus was in this life! Jesus had no sin and never did sin. Why? Because of who he was and where he came from he had the Spirit “Without measure“! Did he have an advantage over us? You bet he did! For it is through Jesus that the works of the devil are destroyed and for that purpose he was manifested! All those who serve Jesus as just a mere man are putting their trust in the arm of flesh and therfore are not serving God at all! WJ He had no advantage over Adam and thus is called the 2nd Adam. Adam was formed without a sinful nature and actually so are all humans. If Jesus was tempted then sin was in him and he overcame sin. There can be no temptation without sin notice the scriptures say that God cannot be tempted with evil. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: James 1:12-14 So Jesus having the “Spirit without Measure” did not have an advantage? Wrong! WJ

“Spirit without measure”? Context and scripture please.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,07:34)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:31) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,07:20) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:01) Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,02:02) Did Christ's preexistance in any way influence his ability to be perfected? How about to overcome sin or heal or do other miracles? If so how do we accomplish these things without the influence of preexistance? Exactly! It seems to me Pre-existence is most important to those who want to dehumanize Jesus and therefore justify their failings Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,02:02) Did Christ's preexistance in any way influence his ability to be perfected? How about to overcome sin or heal or do other miracles? If so how do we accomplish these things without the influence of preexistance? We have the same Spirit Jesus had. So therefore your point is fallacious because you and I still have sin and can never be what Jesus was in this life! Jesus had no sin and never did sin. Why? Because of who he was and where he came from he had the Spirit “Without measure“! Did he have an advantage over us? You bet he did! For it is through Jesus that the works of the devil are destroyed and for that purpose he was manifested! All those who serve Jesus as just a mere man are putting their trust in the arm of flesh and therfore are not serving God at all! WJ He had no advantage over Adam and thus is called the 2nd Adam. Adam was formed without a sinful nature and actually so are all humans. If Jesus was tempted then sin was in him and he overcame sin. There can be no temptation without sin notice the scriptures say that God cannot be tempted with evil. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: James 1:12-14 So Jesus having the “Spirit without Measure” did not have an advantage? Wrong! WJ

“Spirit without measure”? Context and scripture please.

John 3
34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

God sent many has He not?

[bodhitharta]

If Jesus pre-existed and his crucifixion had always been planned then you must view Judas as a Hero.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:44)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,07:34) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:31) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,07:20) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:01) Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,02:02) Did Christ's preexistance in any way influence his ability to be perfected? How about to overcome sin or heal or do other miracles? If so how do we accomplish these things without the influence of preexistance? Exactly! It seems to me Pre-existence is most important to those who want to dehumanize Jesus and therefore justify their failings Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,02:02) Did Christ's preexistance in any way influence his ability to be perfected? How about to overcome sin or heal or do other miracles? If so how do we accomplish these things without the influence of preexistance? We have the same Spirit Jesus had. So therefore your point is fallacious because you and I still have sin and can never be what Jesus was in this life! Jesus had no sin and never did sin. Why? Because of who he was and where he came from he had the Spirit “Without measure“! Did he have an advantage over us? You bet he did! For it is through Jesus that the works of the devil are destroyed and for that purpose he was manifested! All those who serve Jesus as just a mere man are putting their trust in the arm of flesh and therfore are not serving God at all! WJ He had no advantage over Adam and thus is called the 2nd Adam. Adam was formed without a sinful nature and actually so are all humans. If Jesus was tempted then sin was in him and he overcame sin. There can be no temptation without sin notice the scriptures say that God cannot be tempted with evil. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: James 1:12-14 So Jesus having the “Spirit without Measure” did not have an advantage? Wrong! WJ “Spirit without measure”? Context and scripture please. John 3 34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. God sent many has He not?

Not having the Spirit without measure!

No, he has Only One (monogenes) Son!

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:49)

If Jesus pre-existed and his crucifixion had always been planned then you must view Judas as a Hero.

Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: “Christ Jesus came into the world” to save sinners–of whom I am the worst. 1 Tim 1:15

Pure clean and simple words!

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:36)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,07:32) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:25) God, by His spirit, descended to earth to provide one of the human race capable of conquering sin So you admit when Jesus said he descended from heaven he was claiming to be God? How True!       He descended as a word from God and Jesus was made flesh and God was with him.

Scriptures do not say Jesus was “a word” from God!

Scriptures say “he was the Word who was “with God” and was God”!

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:36)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,07:32) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:25) God, by His spirit, descended to earth to provide one of the human race capable of conquering sin So you admit when Jesus said he descended from heaven he was claiming to be God? How True!       He descended as a word from God and Jesus was made flesh and God was with him.

You are equivicating!

You said…

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:25)

God, by His spirit, descended to earth to provide one of the human race capable of conquering sin

But now you are saying “Jesus was a word from God”.

So is Jesus Gods Spirit?

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:33)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,07:30) http://cdelph.org/jesus.html The sight and post above is proof that men who know nothing of the Hebrew or Greek set out to make themselves prophets of their own and speak things that are not true and contrary to the clear teachings of Jesus! WJ “I WILL MAKE HIM My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth” (Psalm 89:27). How do you understand this verse? If he was always the firstborn of creation why is God saying he will make him His firstborn?

The scripture proves my point!

Jesus is the only One “monogenes” Son of God who came from heaven becoming the first and only one to be born into this world from heaven!

WJ

[bodhitharta]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,08:28)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:33) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,07:30) http://cdelph.org/jesus.html The sight and post above is proof that men who know nothing of the Hebrew or Greek set out to make themselves prophets of their own and speak things that are not true and contrary to the clear teachings of Jesus! WJ “I WILL MAKE HIM My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth” (Psalm 89:27). How do you understand this verse? If he was always the firstborn of creation why is God saying he will make him His firstborn? The scripture proves my point! Jesus is the only One “monogenes” Son of God who came from heaven becoming the first and only one to be born into this world from heaven! WJ

Why does it say “I will” instead of “He is”

[bodhitharta]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,07:56)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:44) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,07:34) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:31) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,07:20) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:01) Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,02:02) Did Christ's preexistance in any way influence his ability to be perfected? How about to overcome sin or heal or do other miracles? If so how do we accomplish these things without the influence of preexistance? Exactly! It seems to me Pre-existence is most important to those who want to dehumanize Jesus and therefore justify their failings Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,02:02) Did Christ's preexistance in any way influence his ability to be perfected? How about to overcome sin or heal or do other miracles? If so how do we accomplish these things without the influence of preexistance? We have the same Spirit Jesus had. So therefore your point is fallacious because you and I still have sin and can never be what Jesus was in this life! Jesus had no sin and never did sin. Why? Because of who he was and where he came from he had the Spirit “Without measure“! Did he have an advantage over us? You bet he did! For it is through Jesus that the works of the devil are destroyed and for that purpose he was manifested! All those who serve Jesus as just a mere man are putting their trust in the arm of flesh and therfore are not serving God at all! WJ He had no advantage over Adam and thus is called the 2nd Adam. Adam was formed without a sinful nature and actually so are all humans. If Jesus was tempted then sin was in him and he overcame sin. There can be no temptation without sin notice the scriptures say that God cannot be tempted with evil. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: James 1:12-14 So Jesus having the “Spirit without Measure” did not have an advantage? Wrong! WJ “Spirit without measure”? Context and scripture please. John 3 34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. God sent many has He not? Not having the Spirit without measure! No, he has Only One (monogenes) Son! WJ

Then why does the scriptures say this

Psalm 2:6-8 (King James Version)

6Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Acts 13:32-34

For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
1 Corinthians 4:14-16

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Hebrews 1:4-6

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1 Peter 1:2-4

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1 John 5:17-19

Now what were you saying about being begotten?

So has begotten you and if he has when did He do so?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,21:43)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,07:56) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:44) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,07:34) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:31) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,07:20) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:01) Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,02:02) Did Christ's preexistance in any way influence his ability to be perfected? How about to overcome sin or heal or do other miracles? If so how do we accomplish these things without the influence of preexistance? Exactly! It seems to me Pre-existence is most important to those who want to dehumanize Jesus and therefore justify their failings Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,02:02) Did Christ's preexistance in any way influence his ability to be perfected? How about to overcome sin or heal or do other miracles? If so how do we accomplish these things without the influence of preexistance? We have the same Spirit Jesus had. So therefore your point is fallacious because you and I still have sin and can never be what Jesus was in this life! Jesus had no sin and never did sin. Why? Because of who he was and where he came from he had the Spirit “Without measure“! Did he have an advantage over us? You bet he did! For it is through Jesus that the works of the devil are destroyed and for that purpose he was manifested! All those who serve Jesus as just a mere man are putting their trust in the arm of flesh and therfore are not serving God at all! WJ He had no advantage over Adam and thus is called the 2nd Adam. Adam was formed without a sinful nature and actually so are all humans. If Jesus was tempted then sin was in him and he overcame sin. There can be no temptation without sin notice the scriptures say that God cannot be tempted with evil. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: James 1:12-14 So Jesus having the “Spirit without Measure” did not have an advantage? Wrong! WJ “Spirit without measure”? Context and scripture please. John 3 34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. God sent many has He not? Not having the Spirit without measure! No, he has Only One (monogenes) Son! WJ Then why does the scriptures say this Psalm 2:6-8 (King James Version) 6Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Acts 13:32-34 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. 1 Corinthians 4:14-16 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? Hebrews 1:4-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 1 Peter 1:2-4 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 1 John 5:17-19 Now what were you saying about being begotten? So has begotten you and if he has when did He do so?

Hi all!

Again we see the Muslem using the selection process to make an invalid point.

Jesus is the “only monogenes” Son of God! The word “monogenes” was never used for an adopted Son of God!

“For God so loved the world that he gave “his one and only (monogenēs) Son“, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 1:14

You do understand what “One and Only” means right?

Jesus was the only one born that was given the Spirit without measure!

Think about that!

God also has the Spirit without measure!  

Its really sad to see how men try to make themselves equal to Jesus and bring him down to their level. Very carnal, fleshly and proud indeed!

Jesus preexisted, and John testified of it…

John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘”He who comes after me has surpassed me because **he was before me**.’ John 1:15

John the Baptist was born in this world before Jesus the Word that was with God and was God came in the flesh! John 1:1, 14, 18

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,21:33)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,08:28) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:33) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,07:30) http://cdelph.org/jesus.html The sight and post above is proof that men who know nothing of the Hebrew or Greek set out to make themselves prophets of their own and speak things that are not true and contrary to the clear teachings of Jesus! WJ “I WILL MAKE HIM My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth” (Psalm 89:27). How do you understand this verse? If he was always the firstborn of creation why is God saying he will make him His firstborn? The scripture proves my point! Jesus is the only One “monogenes” Son of God who came from heaven becoming the first and only one to be born into this world from heaven! WJ Why does it say “I will” instead of “He is”

Because Psalm 89:27 was written before he left heaven and took on the likeness of sinful flesh and was found in fashion as a man. Dah! Phil 2:6-8

I think you are getting me mixed up with others that hold that Jesus was the “firstborn” of creation “meaning he came out of Gods womb” before creation.

I do not believe Jesus was born and then born again.

He was always with the Father in the “form of God”.

But do not let those words confuse you, because the Father is also in the “form of God”!  

WJ

[kerwin]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,03:28)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:33) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,07:30) http://cdelph.org/jesus.html The sight and post above is proof that men who know nothing of the Hebrew or Greek set out to make themselves prophets of their own and speak things that are not true and contrary to the clear teachings of Jesus! WJ “I WILL MAKE HIM My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth” (Psalm 89:27). How do you understand this verse? If he was always the firstborn of creation why is God saying he will make him His firstborn? The scripture proves my point! Jesus is the only One “monogenes” Son of God who came from heaven becoming the first and only one to be born into this world from heaven! WJ

I think the only writer of scripture that mentions the word “monogene” in relation to Jesus is John.   The rest did not seem to see it as important.  I wonder why you do?

[georg]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,16:33)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,21:33) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,08:28) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:33) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,07:30) http://cdelph.org/jesus.html The sight and post above is proof that men who know nothing of the Hebrew or Greek set out to make themselves prophets of their own and speak things that are not true and contrary to the clear teachings of Jesus! WJ “I WILL MAKE HIM My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth” (Psalm 89:27). How do you understand this verse? If he was always the firstborn of creation why is God saying he will make him His firstborn? The scripture proves my point! Jesus is the only One “monogenes” Son of God who came from heaven becoming the first and only one to be born into this world from heaven! WJ Why does it say “I will” instead of “He is” Because Psalm 89:27 was written before he left heaven and took on the likeness of sinful flesh and was found in fashion as a man. Dah! Phil 2:6-8 I think you are getting me mixed up with others that hold that Jesus was the “firstborn” of creation “meaning he came out of Gods womb” before creation. I do not believe Jesus was born and then born again. He was always with the Father in the “form of God”. But do not let those words confuse you, because the Father is also in the “form of God”!   WJ

W.J.  When I read some other Scripture it says this
Col. 1:15 “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation,'
And in
Rev.3:14 ….”These says the Amen the Faithful an rue Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God.

I do agree with the other Scripture you give.  But this Scripture tell me that He had a Beginning.
Is that not so?
Peace and Love Irene

[martian]

Quote (georg @ Nov. 09 2009,03:01)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,16:33) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,21:33) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,08:28) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:33) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,07:30) http://cdelph.org/jesus.html The sight and post above is proof that men who know nothing of the Hebrew or Greek set out to make themselves prophets of their own and speak things that are not true and contrary to the clear teachings of Jesus! WJ “I WILL MAKE HIM My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth” (Psalm 89:27). How do you understand this verse? If he was always the firstborn of creation why is God saying he will make him His firstborn? The scripture proves my point! Jesus is the only One “monogenes” Son of God who came from heaven becoming the first and only one to be born into this world from heaven! WJ Why does it say “I will” instead of “He is” Because Psalm 89:27 was written before he left heaven and took on the likeness of sinful flesh and was found in fashion as a man. Dah! Phil 2:6-8 I think you are getting me mixed up with others that hold that Jesus was the “firstborn” of creation “meaning he came out of Gods womb” before creation. I do not believe Jesus was born and then born again. He was always with the Father in the “form of God”. But do not let those words confuse you, because the Father is also in the “form of God”!   WJ W.J.  When I read some other Scripture it says this Col. 1:15 “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation,' And in Rev.3:14 ….”These says the Amen the Faithful an rue Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God. I do agree with the other Scripture you give.  But this Scripture tell me that He had a Beginning. Is that not so? Peace and Love Irene

The question becomes when did “He” begin?
As you have pointed out Christ has preeminence over the rest of creation. He is the firstborn from the dead. That cannot happen until after his death.
Without Christ all of Creation loses it's purpose. this is why he is the first of creation. He is preeminent. He is the reason fro creation. He is the fulfillment of God's plan. The first human to escape the second death and become one with God. His mantle as the messiah opened the door for others to follow the same path as he. That plan and that door is the reason for creation. God's plan to develop sons and daughters with his character and heart. Christ the firstborn son and all others his brothers. Brothers because we are all human and all came the same way to perfection.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (martian @ Nov. 09 2009,03:55)

The question becomes when did “He” begin? As you have pointed out Christ has preeminence over the rest of creation. He is the firstborn from the dead. That cannot happen until after his death. Without Christ all of Creation loses it's purpose. this is why he is the first of creation. He is preeminent. He is the reason fro creation. He is the fulfillment of God's plan. The first human to escape the second death and become one with God. His mantle as the messiah opened the door for others to follow the same path as he. That plan and that door is the reason for creation. God's plan to develop sons and daughters with his character and heart. Christ the firstborn son and all others his brothers. Brothers because we are all human and all came the same way to perfection.

martian……..you have stated it exactly right brother. IMO

peace and love to you and yours……………………gene

[NickHassan]

Quote (martian @ Nov. 09 2009,03:55)

Quote (georg @ Nov. 09 2009,03:01) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,16:33) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,21:33) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,08:28) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:33) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,07:30) http://cdelph.org/jesus.html The sight and post above is proof that men who know nothing of the Hebrew or Greek set out to make themselves prophets of their own and speak things that are not true and contrary to the clear teachings of Jesus! WJ “I WILL MAKE HIM My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth” (Psalm 89:27). How do you understand this verse? If he was always the firstborn of creation why is God saying he will make him His firstborn? The scripture proves my point! Jesus is the only One “monogenes” Son of God who came from heaven becoming the first and only one to be born into this world from heaven! WJ Why does it say “I will” instead of “He is” Because Psalm 89:27 was written before he left heaven and took on the likeness of sinful flesh and was found in fashion as a man. Dah! Phil 2:6-8 I think you are getting me mixed up with others that hold that Jesus was the “firstborn” of creation “meaning he came out of Gods womb” before creation. I do not believe Jesus was born and then born again. He was always with the Father in the “form of God”. But do not let those words confuse you, because the Father is also in the “form of God”!   WJ W.J.  When I read some other Scripture it says this Col. 1:15 “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation,' And in Rev.3:14 ….”These says the Amen the Faithful an rue Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God. I do agree with the other Scripture you give.  But this Scripture tell me that He had a Beginning. Is that not so? Peace and Love Irene The question becomes when did “He” begin? As you have pointed out Christ has preeminence over the rest of creation. He is the firstborn from the dead. That cannot happen until after his death. Without Christ all of Creation loses it's purpose. this is why he is the first of creation. He is preeminent. He is the reason fro creation. He is the fulfillment of God's plan. The first human to escape the second death and become one with God. His mantle as the messiah opened the door for others to follow the same path as he. That plan and that door is the reason for creation. God's plan to develop sons and daughters with his character and heart. Christ the firstborn son and all others his brothers. Brothers because we are all human and all came the same way to perfection.

Hi M,
So some yet living on earth have reached perfection?

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