- This topic has 335 replies, 23 voices, and was last updated 3 years, 5 months ago by
.
- Posts
Who Is the Woman?
Clothed With the Sun?
Revelation 12:1, 2: Now a great sign appeared
in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the
moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of
twelve stars. Then being with child, she cried out in
labor and in pain to give birth.
Nothing in the world can be more beautiful
than a woman. When John saw this lovely lady in
vision, he was astonished. Her clothing was the
most glorious that ever a woman wore—the
sparkling brilliance of sunlight itself. Compared to
it, the world’s most fashionable dress designs look
like rags. Who is she?
Man’s love for woman is a sweet and tender
experience. God has put this love in our hearts so
that we might more easily understand the love that
Jesus feels for His people. “Husbands, love your wives just as Christ also loved the church, and gave
Himself for her” (Ephesians 5:25). No man will
give himself for a woman unless he finds in her
that perfect “other half’ of his own being. That is
how Jesus feels toward His church.
All through the Bible, a lovely woman is a
symbol of God’s church. Jeremiah says, “I have
likened the daughter of Zion [the church] to a
lovely and delicate woman” (Jeremiah 6:2). Paul
likens the church to “a chaste virgin” presented to
Christ in marriage (2 Corinthians 11:2). The Song
of Solomon suddenly comes to life with meaning
for us when we consider that it is a song of Christ
to His bride, the church.
Therefore a pure woman in Bible prophecy is
the true church; and a harlot would be the fallen,
apostate church (see Revelation 17:1-6).
The “moon under her feet” is aptly a picture of
the old Jewish era passing away as the Christian
church arises in glory. The Mosaic ordinances
reflected the light of the gospel as the moon reflects the light of the sun. The “garland of twelve
stars” is usually understood to be the ministry of
the twelve apostles who established the church.God bless
Hi Berean you said :
the moon under her feet:
people of God under the Old Covenant (shadows of things to come, Christ is foreshadowed)Ha ha you are forgetting that Christianity is based on the Hebrew scriptures which were the very origin and source of NT writers. This is the fate of our Christianity we think that Jewish scriptures are absolete and NT replaced every thing that is available in the Hebrew bible. No my brother in fact Christianity misinterpreted Jewish scriptures and made man Jesus divine and Co-creator along with God which is very strange to the idea of God in the Hebrew Bible.
Gadam
Perhaps one day, if you really seek the truth, you will understand that it is the truth. THE NEW TESTAMENT DOES NOT VOID THE OLD, IT COMPLETES AND ENLARGES IT AND BRINGS IT TO PERFECTION.
I AM NOT FOR THE CATHO TRINITY. ONLY THE FATHER AND THE SON SHOULD BE EXALTED.God bless
Brean: Perhaps one day, if you really seek the truth, you will understand that it is the truth. THE NEW TESTAMENT DOES NOT VOID THE OLD, IT COMPLETES AND ENLARGES IT AND BRINGS IT TO PERFECTION.
I AM NOT FOR THE CATHO TRINITY. ONLY THE FATHER AND THE SON SHOULD BE EXALTED.So you are Binitarian. Why left out the Third person. Nothing new for me I was born as Trinitarian Christian. But I have been on continous struggle to understand the God of the NT which made one and only God as Binity, Trinity and much more. Therefore I started unlearning every thing and started afresh from zero and now learned that the reason for so much confusion in Christianity is because the NT writers made man Jesus a mythological figure who was preexisting as divine and emptied himself and took birth as human.
John Knox in his “The Humanity and Divinity of Christ: A Study of Pattern in Christology”:
“My purpose in this essay is limited and comparatively simple: I wish to lift up for consideration the several ways in which the early Church dealt with what has always been the central problem of christology, namely, the humanity of Christ, the divine Lord, and in this way help, if I may, to clarify our own thoughts about him.”
He argues, “The question, however, is … whether evidence for the primitive existence of such an (“adoptionist”) christology is to be found in (Luke’s) work. I do not see how we can escape the conclusion that it is. To cite the clearest example, Acts 2:36… how can this passage be interpreted to mean anything else than that the man Jesus… was at the resurrection exalted to his present messianic status?” (Pg. 7-8)
Later he observes, “There are pasasges in Paul which… would suggest that he shared in the primitive adoptionism… But if such passages… seem to reflect the persistence of the early adoptionism, other passages put beyond doubt Paul’s belief in Jesus’ pre-existence.” (Pg. 19-20) He adds, “Did Paul think of Jesus as being in his pre-existence this ideal heavenly Man?… one cannot rule out the possibility that Paul, at least sometimes, thought of Christ’s pre-existence in terms borrowed from this kind of theological speculation.” (Pg. 21)
He concludes, “For if it is impossible to conceive that God could become a man, it is also impossible to conceive of a man’s becoming God. But actually no such conception needs to be involved in our confession of the resurrection. He was ‘raised to the right hand of God.’ He was not divested of his humanity, but his humanity itself became a divine, and divinely redeeming, thing.” (Pg. 111)
This is the confusion created by NT writers on the nature of Jesus.
Berean:Perhaps one day, if you really seek the truth, you will understand that it is the truth. THE NEW TESTAMENT DOES NOT VOID THE OLD, IT COMPLETES AND ENLARGES IT AND BRINGS IT TO PERFECTION.
I AM NOT FOR THE CATHO TRINITY. ONLY THE FATHER AND THE SON SHOULD BE EXALTED.So you are Binitarian. Why left out the Third person?
I am not new to this. I was born as Trinitarian Christian and am on continous struggle to understand the concept of God in the New Testament. But I am more confused on the nature and person of Jesus which is found in the NT writings. So I started unlearning every thing and started afresh from Zero and now learned that the NT writers created confusion by making man Jesus as a preexisting divine being who was in the beginning with one and only God and emptied himself and taken birth as human on this earth.
I am quoting the wonderful quotations from John Knox book “The Humanity and Divinity of Christ: A Study of Pattern in Christology”;
“My purpose in this essay is limited and comparatively simple: I wish to lift up for consideration the several ways in which the early Church dealt with what has always been the central problem of christology, namely, the humanity of Christ, the divine Lord, and in this way help, if I may, to clarify our own thoughts about him.”
He argues, “The question, however, is … whether evidence for the primitive existence of such an (“adoptionist”) christology is to be found in (Luke’s) work. I do not see how we can escape the conclusion that it is. To cite the clearest example, Acts 2:36… how can this passage be interpreted to mean anything else than that the man Jesus… was at the resurrection exalted to his present messianic status?” (Pg. 7-8)
Later he observes, “There are pasasges in Paul which… would suggest that he shared in the primitive adoptionism… But if such passages… seem to reflect the persistence of the early adoptionism, other passages put beyond doubt Paul’s belief in Jesus’ pre-existence.” (Pg. 19-20) He adds, “Did Paul think of Jesus as being in his pre-existence this ideal heavenly Man?… one cannot rule out the possibility that Paul, at least sometimes, thought of Christ’s pre-existence in terms borrowed from this kind of theological speculation.” (Pg. 21)
He concludes, “For if it is impossible to conceive that God could become a man, it is also impossible to conceive of a man’s becoming God. But actually no such conception needs to be involved in our confession of the resurrection. He was ‘raised to the right hand of God.’ He was not divested of his humanity, but his humanity itself became a divine, and divinely redeeming, thing.” (Pg. 111)
This is the paradox and mythology created by the NT writers on the nature of Jesus.
Berean:Perhaps one day, if you really seek the truth, you will understand that it is the truth. THE NEW TESTAMENT DOES NOT VOID THE OLD, IT COMPLETES AND ENLARGES IT AND BRINGS IT TO PERFECTION.
I AM NOT FOR THE CATHO TRINITY. ONLY THE FATHER AND THE SON SHOULD BE EXALTED.So you are Binitarian. Why left out the Third person?
I am not new to this. I was born as Trinitarian Christian and am on continous struggle to understand the concept of God in the New Testament. But I am more confused on the nature and person of Jesus which is found in the NT writings. So I started unlearning every thing and started afresh from Zero and now learned that the NT writers created confusion by making man Jesus as a preexisting divine being who was in the beginning with one and only God and emptied himself and taken birth as human on this earth.
I am quoting the wonderful quotations from John Knox book “The Humanity and Divinity of Christ: A Study of Pattern in Christology”;
“My purpose in this essay is limited and comparatively simple: I wish to lift up for consideration the several ways in which the early Church dealt with what has always been the central problem of christology, namely, the humanity of Christ, the divine Lord, and in this way help, if I may, to clarify our own thoughts about him.”
He argues, “The question, however, is … whether evidence for the primitive existence of such an (“adoptionist”) christology is to be found in (Luke’s) work. I do not see how we can escape the conclusion that it is. To cite the clearest example, Acts 2:36… how can this passage be interpreted to mean anything else than that the man Jesus… was at the resurrection exalted to his present messianic status?” (Pg. 7-8)
Later he observes, “There are pasasges in Paul which… would suggest that he shared in the primitive adoptionism… But if such passages… seem to reflect the persistence of the early adoptionism, other passages put beyond doubt Paul’s belief in Jesus’ pre-existence.” (Pg. 19-20) He adds, “Did Paul think of Jesus as being in his pre-existence this ideal heavenly Man?… one cannot rule out the possibility that Paul, at least sometimes, thought of Christ’s pre-existence in terms borrowed from this kind of theological speculation.” (Pg. 21)
He concludes, “For if it is impossible to conceive that God could become a man, it is also impossible to conceive of a man’s becoming God. But actually no such conception needs to be involved in our confession of the resurrection. He was ‘raised to the right hand of God.’ He was not divested of his humanity, but his humanity itself became a divine, and divinely redeeming, thing.” (Pg. 111)
This is the paradox and mythology created by the NT writers on the nature of Jesus.
So you are Binitarian. Why left out the Third person?
I am not new to this. I was born as Trinitarian Christian and am on continous struggle to understand the concept of God in the New Testament. But I am more confused on the nature and person of Jesus which is found in the NT writings. So I started unlearning every thing and started afresh from Zero and now learned that the NT writers created confusion by making man Jesus as a preexisting divine being who was in the beginning with one and only God and emptied himself and taken birth as human on this earth.
I am quoting the wonderful quotations from John Knox book “The Humanity and Divinity of Christ: A Study of Pattern in Christology”;
“My purpose in this essay is limited and comparatively simple: I wish to lift up for consideration the several ways in which the early Church dealt with what has always been the central problem of christology, namely, the humanity of Christ, the divine Lord, and in this way help, if I may, to clarify our own thoughts about him.”
He argues, “The question, however, is … whether evidence for the primitive existence of such an (“adoptionist”) christology is to be found in (Luke’s) work. I do not see how we can escape the conclusion that it is. To cite the clearest example, Acts 2:36… how can this passage be interpreted to mean anything else than that the man Jesus… was at the resurrection exalted to his present messianic status?” (Pg. 7-8)
Later he observes, “There are pasasges in Paul which… would suggest that he shared in the primitive adoptionism… But if such passages… seem to reflect the persistence of the early adoptionism, other passages put beyond doubt Paul’s belief in Jesus’ pre-existence.” (Pg. 19-20) He adds, “Did Paul think of Jesus as being in his pre-existence this ideal heavenly Man?… one cannot rule out the possibility that Paul, at least sometimes, thought of Christ’s pre-existence in terms borrowed from this kind of theological speculation.” (Pg. 21)
He concludes, “For if it is impossible to conceive that God could become a man, it is also impossible to conceive of a man’s becoming God. But actually no such conception needs to be involved in our confession of the resurrection. He was ‘raised to the right hand of God.’ He was not divested of his humanity, but his humanity itself became a divine, and divinely redeeming, thing.” (Pg. 111)
This is the paradox and mythology created by the NT writers on the nature of Jesus.
Gadam
You
Thisi isi the paradox and mythology created by the NT writers on the nature of Jesus.
Me
I pity you Gadam for being in such a situation of theological confusion. May God help you.
Berean: I pity you Gadam for being in such a situation of theological confusion. May God help you.
Thank you for your pity…but I am not in any theological confusion. I am learning the actual confusion created by the NT writers to invent a new religion by deviating from the original religion of Hebrew Bible.
Gadam
It’s the devil who makes you believe what you say. Do not believe it. The old and the new testament is the truth, dare to believe it; they are ONE as THE FATHER AND THE SON ARE ONE. HAVE NO FEAR FOR THIS.
Hi Gadam,
YOU:
The New Testament teaches the heavenly preexistence of Christ before taking flesh:
For any person to be fully divine, he must exist forever—God, by definition, cannot begin to exist or be created. In various ways, the New Testament affirms that Christ did, in fact, exist in the spiritual or heavenly realm before being born in the flesh. John’s Gospel teaches that Jesus “came from above” (or similar wording, John 3:31; 6:38, 51; 8:23) and had glory with the Father in heaven in eternity past (John 17:5). Paul also teaches that Jesus existed in heaven before being sent in the flesh (Col. 1:17; 1 Cor. 15:47; Eph. 4:9-10; Gal. 4:4; 1 Tim. 1:15; 3:16). Jesus, too, gives subtle signs that he has “come” from outside the earthly realm (e.g., Luke 12:49-51), which even demons recognize (Mark 1:24).ME: The NT does not teach at all that Jesus pre-existed, you are aligning your interpretations of the above passages incorrectly and just as those who believe in pre-existence do.
I will go through those passages with you and show you how they do not teach pre-existence and how they align with the OT.
Jodi
I will go through those passages with you and show you how they do not teach pre-existence and how they align with the OT.
Me
NO ONE WILL BE ABLE TO SHOW THROUGH THE HOLY BIBLE THAT CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD, IS NOT GOD (OF DIVINE NATURE
Hi Gadam,
YOU:
John’s Gospel teaches that Jesus “came from above” (or similar wording, John 3:31; 6:38, 51; 8:23) and had glory with the Father in heaven in eternity past (John 17:5).
ME: Yes, Jesus Christ came from above, he came to the people directly from God, to put it in another way that means the exact same thing, Jesus Christ came to us down from heaven.
Think for a moment about how the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven mean the same thing. This is a future kingdom from God and of God which means it comes to us down from heaven. God and Heaven are used interchangeably. This as well applies to Jesus, he came down from heaven meaning he came from God/God sent him.
John 8:23 And he said unto them,Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
Jesus had the Spirit come to dwell within him and he was sent out to perform God’s will, preach, heal, perform signs and miracles. “They”, to whom Jesus was speaking of in John 17, are also those who received the Spirit and were sent out to preach, heal and perform signs and miracles. Just as Jesus was not of the world they were not of the world and just as Jesus was sent they likewise were sent. When they spoke the word of God just like Jesus they spoke of heavenly things. Jesus was the only mortal man to have received the Spirit not by measure whereas they received the Spirit by measure. Some were made prophets, others healers, …etc, but Jesus did it all.
John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly , and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. 32 And what he hath seen and heard , that he testifieth ; and no man receiveth his testimony. 33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. 34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
Jesus quoting Isaiah,
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
YHVH sent Jesus upon his anointing of the Spirit into the world, he was coming to the people down from heaven/directly from God according to God’s will. He was YHVH’s WORD spoken by Isaiah the prophet made true in the flesh, for the anointed Jesus of Nazareth was a man (anthropos -human being).
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing : as I hear , I judge : and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Jesus is saying that he came from God where he does the will of God. We know that he came down from heaven/from God by the works that he did. Fame began to be spread of him beginning in Galilee, where people beheld his glory, the glory of the only begotten of the Spirit without measure filled with grace and truth.
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.
Acts 2:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony , and said , I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.
Acts 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
The NT makes it clear as to who was sent and when he was sent, a son of Man Jesus of Nazareth of the house of David was sent upon being anointed of the Spirit.
There is no sending in the NT of a pre-existing Son, there is only the sending of the anointed Jesus, and as he was a man (anthropos-human being) he is the Messiah who came in the flesh. By that flesh he could do nothing of himself however, it was by the Spirit living in him without measure did he do all manner of good works, for the “Spirit is all goodness, righteousness and truth”.
As he did not come of his own will but was sent by the will of YHVH and had YHVH living in him to perform the will of YHVH, he was thus not of the world he was sent from and was of heaven/of God.
John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said,Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Para –of 51, with 42, from 24,
Gadam, Jesus was not ignorant of the OT and there is one great truth repeated throughout the OT and NT, that pre-existent believers never seem to want to apply to scripture, the END was declared from the beginning, a man was IN THE WORD of YHVH from the beginning who would execute YHVH’s purpose, and before the world was there was a promise unto mankind of eternal life (Titus 1:2). The resurrected Jesus is the first man to have received that glory, and as a firstborn he was made head overall of the inheritance. Isaiah 53 tells us he whom God raised up received a portion among the mighty and was appointed to share the spoil with the strong.
Isaiah 46:0 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
The man Jesus, who spoke in John 17, knew of the glory of eternal life that was of YHVH for mankind even before the world began. He new that he was firstborn of that glory and would have a glory above all as a king of kings and a lord of lords.
YHVH declared the END from the beginning and all that occurs in between is according to His will and plan. We read and hear that David’s son is to sit eternally on his father’s throne (Acts 2:30).
Jesus said, “glorify though me” and we read and hear that it is Jesus who was raised up as first begotten of the dead where he has eternal life, he was raised having received the promise of the Holy Spirit, he was raised being the Son of Man exalted to YHVH’s right hand. Jesus said, “glorify though me” and we read and hear that this Son of Man is to return in the glory of our Father where he will put all enemies under his feet through the Spirit that lives in him.
John 17 .. “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had PARA/OF thee before the world was.”
The Son of Man was asking for the glory to which the Son of Man had BY PROMISE OF YHVH before the world was.
Hi Berean,
I am most happy to give scripture again that shows that Jesus Christ is of the divine nature, just as we are.
Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them,Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
regeneration- Paliggenesia- new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration
1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming…51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
In the same chapter where Jesus directly tells you that it was not he in the beginning making man and thus earth also, he likewise says,
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
33 Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles:34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.
37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory. 38 But Jesus said unto them,Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? 39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized: 40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.
1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Acts 13:32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Berean, the good news (the Gospel) according to Mark began when Jesus of Nazareth was anointed of the Spirit at the river Jordan and was sent out to preach the kingdom of God. His teaching was ALL about the Spirit that came to live within him, a begetting of the Spirit of God, where he said he could do nothing of himself and that the Spirit gives life, the flesh profits nothing. HE WAS A MAN WHO SAID THAT MAN MUST BE BORN OF WATER AND OF THE SPIRIT TO SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD and then we see this MAN, who had been immersed in water and receive the Spirit, die and then be raised to life again as a firstborn into immortality appearing to many to give them faith and hope to their own resurrection. You are told that it was by the eternal Spirit that he offered himself up, that by that Spirit he was raised from the dead, and that he received that Spirit according to a promise that we likewise are promised to receive.
Berean, you fully ignore how it is that Jesus is divine and you likewise seem to clearly deny that he is actually a firstborn overall of a creation where YHVH makes ALL THINGS NEW, a glory that YHVH promised before the world began.
As I have said before, Paul teaches us in Romans 8 the very image of what it means to be a Son of God, those who are led by the Spirit of God and those who have the Spirit bearing witness to their spirit that they are children of God. By such we are made into the image of the Son of God, Jesus.
Jesus was raised from the dead and by a promise he received the Spirit, where on that day he was said to have been begotten by God. Seriously bro, when are you going to start putting simple two and two together? Heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ (anointed of the Spirit) seems like just hot air to you, worthless words that in fact are the gospel, the words that are to be taught. Jesus is separated as a firstborn from many brethren, a human heir of God that gets to divide the spoil among other heirs. He is separated as a king of kings and a lord of lords given dominion overall the works that YHVH had made. But we still are partakers of the divine nature as he is, we still follow him in the regeneration -NEW BIRTH where the Spirit lives within us causing all goodness, righteousness and truth and thus eternal life, to which was YHVH’s WORD before the world began.
It’s the devil who makes you believe what you say. Do not believe it. The old and the new testament is the truth, dare to believe it; they are ONE as THE FATHER AND THE SON ARE ONE. HAVE NO FEAR FOR THIS.
Hi Berean, the so called Devil was the another invention by the NT writers which does not have support in the Hebrew scriptures. The splitting of God into two (Father & Son) or into three is all the creation of NT writers.
Jodi:
The NT does not teach at all that Jesus pre-existed, you are aligning your interpretations of the above passages incorrectly and just as those who believe in pre-existence do.
I will go through those passages with you and show you how they do not teach pre-existence and how they align with the OT.
Hi Jodi, thanks for your lengthy explanations on my post on the preexistence of Jesus. In fact I too don’t support the arguments for the preexistence of Jesus but I am bringing out the ambiguity created by the NT writers on Jesus’ preexistence and his role in the creation of God. This was not required for the religion of Jesus but the NT writers created Jesus’ role in the God’s activity in this universe. The scriptures you quoted from John’s Gospel were debated number of times on this Heaven net on various topics in fact the most lengthy thread is ‘Preexistence’ under Truth or Tradition started by Mandy. Could anyone come to conclusion? No.
You can not nullify the multiple (NT) scriptures that support Jesus’ preexistence and his role in the God’s creation. For example I quote the verse John 8:58(NRSV)
Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, before Abraham was, I am.”
What was the necessity of this statement? This writer wanted to prove that Jesus was not an ordinary man. You and brother Gene can negate such verses but there are number of Trinitarians/Binitarians and others who argue for the preexistence of Jesus. This is where I am raising the allegations against the NT writers who created such ambiguity for Jesus.
Please think over. Peace to you….Adam
Hi Gadam,,
Thank you for your reply!
Reading a few of your previous posts before I posted, I did gather that you do not believe in pre-existence. You did just prove to me again however that you are interpreting scripture as pre-existent believers do though, which I say is false interpretation.
Believe in and apply what we are told in Isaiah 46, where YHVH had declared the END from the beginning and a man would come and execute all of YHVH’s will/plan, which is why YHVH had created all things in the first place! This man brings forth the END, which is a New Beginning!
Read all of John 8 and apply the context along with Isaiah 46 to verse 58. Abraham, David, John the Baptist would have never existed in the first place if it were not for the man to come, Jesus the anointed who died but was raised a New Man, a firstborn of many brethren over a New Creation, appointed as head overall.
Jesus says,
John 8:12, “I AM the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.”
Abraham knew that by his seed all nations would be blessed. David knew that his seed would receive an eternal throne where YHVH would be an eternal Father unto him, settling him in His house. John the Baptist knew that he was the promised man to whom YHVH would call to righteousness to fulfill YHVH’s covenant being for a light even unto the Gentiles. Without this man to come declared from the beginning, nothing would have been made that was made. When YHVH spoke saying “let there be light”, He did so through the LIGHT that would come, the anointed Jesus who was born of the seed of David and declared to be God’s Son according to the Spirit by His resurrection from the dead (Romans 1). Before YHVH said, “let there be light” in His WORD THAT CANNOT BE UNDONE, there was the light of Jesus.
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Before Abraham even existed, before Abraham was given the promise regarding his seed, the LIGHT that would be of his seed was DECLARED. Before Abraham was, Jesus was declared the Light of the World, and Abraham saw that light and knew that all things where created by reason of him and for him, where without this man nothing would have been made that was made.
Jodi
BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS THE SON OF GOD FOR A LONG TIME …
Colossians 1
And he (JESUS) is before all things, and by him all things consist.Hi Jodi,
You: Reading a few of your previous posts before I posted, I did gather that you do not believe in pre-existence. You did just prove to me again however that you are interpreting scripture as pre-existent believers do though, which I say is false interpretation
Me: Thanks for understanding me. But please don’t be so harsh on me by using ‘false interpretation’
You: Believe in and apply what we are told in Isaiah 46, where YHVH had declared the END from the beginning and a man would come and execute all of YHVH’s will/plan, which is why YHVH had created all things in the first place! This man brings forth the END, which is a New Beginning!
Me: Please read (Jewish Bible) Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 46:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
Please see the commentary ; The theme of Isaiah 46 ‘The deliverance of Israel by the destruction of Babylon’
Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning; i.e. “possessed of the very highest prophetic power, able to declare from the very beginnings of history its ultimate issues”. My counsel; rather, my purpose, or my plan.
Isaiah 46:11
Calling a bird of prey from the east, the man who executes My counsel: This is another reference to Cyrus. God’s people need to remember that God always has a deliverer for His people, even if He has to find one among pagan kings. Cyrus came from the east at God’s call: for God is Lord of hosts and of those that have hosts at command. And, if God give him a call, he will give him success. He is the man that shall execute God’s counsel, though he comes from a far country and knows nothing of the matter.
There is nothing about Jesus here as you are trying to apply. I don’t see any thing about even Jewish Messiah here.
You: Read all of John 8 and apply the context along with Isaiah 46 to verse 58. Abraham, David, John the Baptist would have never existed in the first place if it were not for the man to come, Jesus the anointed who died but was raised a New Man, a firstborn of many brethren over a New Creation, appointed as head overall.
Me: Sorry I can not find any thing about this New Man Jesus as you are inferring from these chapters of Hebrew Bible unless they were misinterpreted by the Christian writers.
You: John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Before Abraham even existed, before Abraham was given the promise regarding his seed, the LIGHT that would be of his seed was DECLARED. Before Abraham was, Jesus was declared the Light of the World, and Abraham saw that light and knew that all things where created by reason of him and for him, where without this man nothing would have been made that was made.
Me: This is purely the interpretation of the writer of Fourth Gospel that Abraham foresaw Jesus which is not supported by Jewish scriptures. Can you show me where in the Hebrew Bible it was written “Before Abraham was, Jesus was declared the Light of the World, and Abraham saw that light and knew that all things where created by reason of him and for him, where without this man nothing would have been made that was made” as quoted by you?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
