Jesus did not pre-exist

[bodhitharta]

And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Exodus 4:21-23

Please explain tate how this can be?

[martian]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 22 2009,08:41)

Quote (martian @ Nov. 22 2009,06:43) One of the  starting places for the dual nature and Trinitarian philosophies is dualism For those unfamiliar with this term, dualism is a Greek Philosophy that states that there are two realms in our existence. The higher scared spiritual realm and the lower fallen natural Earthly realm. This belief degrades the natural or secular realm as lesser in importance and makes the spiritual sacred realm the one to seek. If you ask the common Christian what could be the highest calling in life, many would answer to be in the ministry or doing work in some sacred capacity. Others  would preface answering by asking if they can include their faith in the choices. They have already compartmentalized their secular and sacred worlds in to two separate lives. This separation can sometimes take the form of separating the man himself in the higher soul/spirit man and the lower natural body. This in spite of the fact that all three are to be redeemed. Our so-called lower bodies are changed but we will have them in heaven. At times the dualist will separate the soul and the spirit and we’ll see the soul as corrupted and the spirit as in a higher plane of existence. They will struggle all their lives to drag their lower soul up to the higher plane of the spirit. Dualism is a form of Gnosticism. A broader term for this type of philosophy. Gnosticism and dualism are the breeding ground for the concepts of the dual nature of Christ and the Trinity. Greek philosophy and the Greek way of thinking had its final victory over the Eastern culture about 200AD. Greek thinking philosophers were getting saved and bringing in with them the concepts of these beliefs. Gnostics carried with them a pride in proclaiming a mysterious belief system and having knowledge only they could posses. They had “truths” that went beyond the lower Earthly reason or rational. Dualists made a clear distinction between the sacred and the secular. Teaching that Christ could not be of the lower Earthly realm because that would indicate he was also fallen. This was based on a belief that everything was fallen in this realm. Even new born children carried the stain of sin even though they had never sinned themselves. This in spite of the fact that God clearly states that the sins of the father would not be passed onto the child. From the dualists came the belief that Christ could not be human but had to be augmented in some way and the Gnostics could draw a prideful satisfaction from being the ones that had this higher understanding that went beyond the lower Earthly rationale. All of these philosophical models are foreign to the Hebrew mind and view of the universe. They should be foreign to the Christian that desires to know God and become like him. God does not live in some separate sacred spiritual realm apart from us. God lives in and through his creation, including man. When Adam was created God breathed the “breath” of life into him. This word breath in the Hebrew carries several meanings in it. It can mean character, life, or guidance. In the case of Adam it is all three. Adam was created with the seeds of God’s character in him. They were immature and not tested but present. He also became a living creature by the breath. Job speaks of the breath returning to God upon death. That breath is the animating force that gives us life. It is part and parcel of God himself. This breath or spirit was established in us to help guide us on our journey through life. Our conscience  is a great part of this guiding factor. The center piece of God’s creation is mankind. All of the Earth and the universe was created to house mankind. It is the place in which we undertake our journey to YHWH. To the Hebrews it has always been about the journey and not necessarily about the destination. The Hebrew word translated commandment literally means directions toward Zion. The Torah was a teaching tool to help us along the way. The commandments sign post on where to travel. The wind/breath is a guiding force to help give us direction. Perhaps we need another trip around the wilderness or another triumph at Jericho. God knows what is best for our personal journey. Dualism attempts to deny us the journey through our natural realm. A journey that God intended to mature us. Dualists teach us to see little or no value in the physical natural realm and to seek a journey in some metaphysical transedental spiritual realm. A realm that does not require the rationale or reason that God built in us. A realm that is shrouded in mystique and guided by mystery. A realm that for the most part separates us from God, with only the occasional visit either way. Instead of God being an EVER PRESENT help in time of need, He is taught to be outside of the realm in which we live and need help. All of mankind are children of God. Some are more obedient then others. some are lost on their journey. some have purposely avoided the path and sign posts attempting to blaze their own trail. God deals with all of them in personal ways to guide along the path they are on and others to get them back on the right path. some might be experiencing circumstances placed specifically for them and others are just experiencing the circumstances of life. God works for good in all of it. God desires to live vicariously in and through His creation., specifically humanity. Unlike the created universe we are created in the image of God and after his likeness. We have the emotional structure of God and the ability to sense his presence and guiding breath/wind. We have within us the animating breath of God and the seeds of his character implanted within. God desires to shine through our personalities like the facet of a Gem, each shining forth the character of God through our individual (God created) personalities. When God finished creating man he said “it is good”.  The word good in the Hebrew means functional. That potential for functionality still exists in every child born. The fall did not destroy it. sometime after birth the conscious choices of man curtail or limit our functionality. In other words we don’t work like we should within God’s economy. Were we to all work correctly the world would be set right. Were we to all work as the intellegent designer intended things would be different. Jesus too is a child of God. Different in that he is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of God. He is made like his brethren in every way. (human) Jesus never made a choice to stray from the path. This is a magnificent accomplishment for a human. If he was a God it would not be a big deal. To God the life of this man was precious because of his accomplishment. Death reigned over man from Adam to Jesus, but because of willingness of one man righteousness now prevails. We now because of his sacrifice and example have the right to undertake our personal journey and the example to show us how to do it. In short the fundamentals of dualism sidetrack us into seeking a realm we already dwell in. Jesus said the Kingdom of God is here. Our seeking another place is actually separating us from the Kingdom of God. Instead of seeking with our own knowledge of Good and Evil to find God somewhere else we need to invite more of God into where we are. Accepting the vulnerability required to allow God to live in and through us as the child of God that we all are. Jesus’ redemptive work gave us a right to travel the path. Jesus’ example gives us the know how to travel it. Did you write that? It was written very well and it was a very good piece, I enjoyed it t horoughly.

Yes I did write it, but I admit to doing alot of research on the matter over the last few years.

[martian]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 22 2009,08:54)

Quote (martian @ Nov. 14 2009,04:18) These following two or the most important questions. How does the doctrine of the preexistence help me become more like Christ? How does the doctrine of the Preexistence build hope in my heart? First off, whether he pre-existed or not doesn't change our love for God in any way. It is only that scripture demonstrates this and that if we are a people of truth, will just accept the truth. You could ask exactly the same questions if you take the opposing side. How does the doctrine of the non-preexistence help me become more like Christ? How does the doctrine of the non-Preexistence build hope in my heart? One more point. God demonstrated his love toward us in that he sent his only begotten for us. Let's for argument sake say that Jesus was created on the spot for the job of saving men. Then what price is that? If he failed, God could make another one. But God sent the one whom he loved and loves. The one by whom he made all things. The one that was before Abraham and the one that had glory with the Father before the world begun. See how priceless he is now. God spent no expense in saving us.

I see you did not answer the questions.
I can tell you how a non-preexistant Christ benifits me.
I look at everything that Christ did. I know that he did them as a human and that gives me hope that I too can overcome temptation. Have the power of God in me to do mighty things. Become one with my Father. Be ressurected from the dead. Have eternal life.
If Jesus is a God or has any advantage due to his prexistance then the example is flawed. these will always be a loop hole that the devil can exploit by saying I cannot do it because I do not have the advantage that Christ had.
Christ as God lessens the hope I receive by Jesus being human.

As you say God could create another one. In fact Jesus is the second one. He is the second Adam. Adam failed to mature into a perfect son of God. Jesus did not.
The fact that Jesus was the first to accomplish what God set out to do with creation in the first place makes him a very precious commoditiy

The semi-quotes you note are all based on your interpretation of scripture. If those verses are interpreted in another way they lend no strength to your argument. The interpretations become my opinion against yours.
There is only two options. Either we agree on a method of interpretation that we will both stick to or we tets the theories based on their fruit.
I have said what the fruit of my doctrine is. Can you post the fruit of yours?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (martian @ Nov. 22 2009,09:20)

I see you did not answer the questions. I can tell you how a non-preexistant Christ benifits me. I look at everything that Christ did. I know that he did them as a human and that gives me hope that I too can overcome temptation. Have the power of God in me to do mighty things. Become one with my Father. Be ressurected from the dead. Have eternal life. If Jesus is a God or has any advantage due to his prexistance then the example is flawed. these will always be a loop hole that the devil can exploit by saying I cannot do it because I do not have the advantage that Christ had. Christ as God lessens the hope I receive by Jesus being human. As you say God could create another one. In fact Jesus is the second one. He is the second Adam. Adam failed to mature into a perfect son of God. Jesus did not. The fact that Jesus was the first to accomplish what God set out to do with creation in the first place makes him a very precious commoditiy The semi-quotes you note are all based on your interpretation of scripture. If those verses are interpreted in another way they lend no strength to your argument. The interpretations become my opinion against yours. There is only two options. Either we agree on a method of interpretation that we will both stick to or we tets the theories based on their fruit. I have said what the fruit of my doctrine is. Can you post the fruit of yours?

No difference for me martian because it says that before coming here he emptied himself and took on flesh. I take that to mean that he traded his privileged divine nature for human nature and was born like we are (in weak flesh). He became like us in every way even though he existed in the FORM of God.

Ignoring scripture, let's imagine that we pre-existed. How would we know? If I come in the flesh and start anew, then my past is of no advantage to me as far as power and memory goes.

So he became as one of us. It is very important to believe that he emptied himself and came in the flesh. What does that mean, well I think it is that he emptied himself of his position, power, and nature and took on lowly human nature and even becoming lower than the angels in type. It does say that he humbled himself till death.

It is also written that he is now with the Father with the glory he had before the world begun. So he existed in the form (nature) of God, emptied himself, came as a man, died, rose from the dead, and is seated with God the Father with the glory he had before the world begun.

God paid the highest price for us. He didn't send and instantly created offspring to die for us, but a son by whom God made all things through and for. A son that he loved before the creation of the world.

This is the measure of God's love for us.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 22 2009,08:58)

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 22 2009,08:54) Quote (martian @ Nov. 14 2009,04:18) These following two or the most important questions. How does the doctrine of the preexistence help me become more like Christ? How does the doctrine of the Preexistence build hope in my heart? First off, whether he pre-existed or not doesn't change our love for God in any way. It is only that scripture demonstrates this and that if we are a people of truth, will just accept the truth. You could ask exactly the same questions if you take the opposing side. How does the doctrine of the non-preexistence help me become more like Christ? How does the doctrine of the non-Preexistence build hope in my heart? One more point. God demonstrated his love toward us in that he sent his only begotten for us. Let's for argument sake say that Jesus was created on the spot for the job of saving men. Then what price is that? If he failed, God could make another one. But God sent the one whom he loved and loves. The one by whom he made all things. The one that was before Abraham and the one that had glory with the Father before the world begun. See how priceless he is now. God spent no expense in saving us. Why do you think God calls Israel His FIRSTBORN?

There are many firstborns. My oldest son is my firstborn.

But there is only one who is the firstborn of all creation.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 22 2009,09:00)

And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: Exodus 4:21-23 Please explain tate how this can be?

Israel is not the firstborn of all creation.
He is the first in the nation of Israel.

Jesus was the first in creation.
Jesus is the prototype of all creation.

[kerwin]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 22 2009,04:57)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 22 2009,09:00) And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: Exodus 4:21-23 Please explain tate how this can be? Israel is not the firstborn of all creation. He is the first in the nation of Israel. Jesus was the first in creation. Jesus is the prototype of all creation.

Scripture states wisdom is.

Proverbs 8:22-23(KJV) reads:

Quote

The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.  I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Jesus is not a demigod.

[martian]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 22 2009,09:50)

Quote (martian @ Nov. 22 2009,09:20) I see you did not answer the questions. I can tell you how a non-preexistant Christ benifits me. I look at everything that Christ did. I know that he did them as a human and that gives me hope that I too can overcome temptation. Have the power of God in me to do mighty things. Become one with my Father. Be ressurected from the dead. Have eternal life. If Jesus is a God or has any advantage due to his prexistance then the example is flawed. these will always be a loop hole that the devil can exploit by saying I cannot do it because I do not have the advantage that Christ had. Christ as God lessens the hope I receive by Jesus being human. As you say God could create another one. In fact Jesus is the second one. He is the second Adam. Adam failed to mature into a perfect son of God. Jesus did not. The fact that Jesus was the first to accomplish what God set out to do with creation in the first place makes him a very precious commoditiy The semi-quotes you note are all based on your interpretation of scripture. If those verses are interpreted in another way they lend no strength to your argument. The interpretations become my opinion against yours. There is only two options. Either we agree on a method of interpretation that we will both stick to or we tets the theories based on their fruit. I have said what the fruit of my doctrine is. Can you post the fruit of yours? No difference for me martian because it says that before coming here he emptied himself and took on flesh. I take that to mean that he traded his privileged divine nature for human nature and was born like we are (in weak flesh). He became like us in every way even though he existed in the FORM of God. Ignoring scripture,  let's imagine that we pre-existed. How would we know? If I come in the flesh and start anew, then my past is of no advantage to me as far as power and memory goes. So he became as one of us. It is very important to believe that he emptied himself and came in the flesh. What does that mean, well I think it is that he emptied himself of his position, power, and nature and took on lowly human nature and even becoming lower than the angels in type. It does say that he humbled himself till death. It is also written that he is now with the Father with the glory he had before the world begun. So he existed in the form (nature) of God, emptied himself, came as a man, died, rose from the dead, and is seated with God the Father with the glory he had before the world begun. God paid the highest price for us. He didn't send and instantly created offspring to die for us, but a son by whom God made all things through and for. A son that he loved before the creation of the world. This is the measure of God's love for us.

if Christ preexisted in a conscious form, what happened to the memories and experiances from that time. Did God wipe his own mind to be born on Earth?
Can God change his nature/character from one that is mortal to one that is not?
How about from one that is not capable of temptation to one that is?

There are things God cannot do. He cannot change his moral character. He is the height of holiness. He cannot say that today I am not capable of temptation and tomorrow I will be. this is not possible for the judeo-christian God.

None of your scripturs mean a thing because I can just as easily show they mean something else.

What fruit does our different positions produce.
Yours obscures the pure example of a human for the rest of humanity.
There will always be loop holes for the enemy to exploit. Whispering in our ears that we cannot do what Christ did because of an advantage that he had as a God or a preexistant life.
My positions builds hope because it shows a human just like me that overcame temptation and was resurected from the dead. It builds hope that I can do the same.
As a Prof said t me once. “It ain't no big deal for a God to do what christ did.”
For a man to do what christ did is a magnificent accomplishment.

[kerwin]

martian wrote:

Quote

My positions builds hope because it shows a human just like me that overcame temptation and was resurected from the dead. It builds hope that I can do the same.

clap! clap! clap!

[GeneBalthrop]

T8………..I totally agree with martian and have stated many time here the view of Preexistence separates OUR identity with Jesus and weaken our HOPE, When We see Jesus as simply (ONE of US) in (EVERY WAY) without any advantage other then GOD was with Him, we gain great courage from that understanding. The Preexistence Doctrine is very likely worse as the Doctrine of the Trinity, Both support each other. God did not pick a preexistent perfect Being and Kill him and rebirth him and Kill him again, It makes (NO) Sense to even think He would do that. He took an ordinary (FOREORDAINED) OR PLANNED BEING AND AT THE RIGHT TIME BROUGHT HIM INTO EXISTENCE. The same way we are brought into existence in this life through a Berth process. Jesus had no past Knowledge because he did not exist in the past, He had only Scriptural, and Revealed Knowledge by GOD who was Perfecting Him as He grew and matured.
Jesus is a (WORK) of GOD as we also can be < "Until we (ALL) come to the full measure of Christ". Pushing Jesus likeness away from us by giving him some separate position is what the teaching of the Preexistence and Trinity doctrines do. We are right one this one T8, You need to reconsider your position you are in error brother. IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene

[bodhitharta]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 22 2009,09:57)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 22 2009,09:00) And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: Exodus 4:21-23 Please explain tate how this can be? Israel is not the firstborn of all creation. He is the first in the nation of Israel. Jesus was the first in creation. Jesus is the prototype of all creation.

The verse is talking about the Nation of Israel.

You seem to not understand the language of the time or culture, you seem to view rank as sequence.

For instance the same word used for Jesus pertaining to God is used of Isaac pertaining to Abraham but we know for a fact that Abraham had a son before Isaac.

Why would God say on THIS DAY I have begotten thee if he had been begotten before the foundation of the world?

You simply seem to not understand the poetic language and the literary techniques employed to give certain things great importance, of course we know for instance that Jesus(The Lamb) was not ACTUALLY slain from the foundation of the world.

Now when you say that Jesus was the first in creation are you actually willing to believe that Someone who was created long before we were here would hesitate in any way to “die” out of the flesh knowing before any man was created that you were literally with God everyday and was simply going to go back to the greatest place which is the presence of God?

Do you really believe that Jesus if he was the firstborn of creation and has always been in the presence of God according to your belief that he would actually ever say “Why have you forsaken me?” considering they would have known about this plan thousands of years ahead of time would he really flinch at the character of God? That would be literally like asking “why have you lied to me?”

No, those types of doubts such as “Father take this cup from me” are only valid if the person believes and has faith in God but is scared of the Unknown the same way that we today are nervous or scared about death but if I was just in heaven for thousands of years why would I be concerned about what I have already experienced seeing that I have lived in the presence of God for an unknown period of time.

When I leave my house everyday I am not afraid to go back home but if you take me somewhere I've never been before and I'm not sure where I'll live I would then feel that you have forsaken me.

[GeneBalthrop]

DB…………Absolutely, Jesus was foreordained (preplanned) before His berth , then at the right time was Born, came into the world by berth , just exactly as we do, and was (Begotten) or Born of GOD at the day He was Baptized in the Jordan By John the Baptist. As the voice of GOD said (this day) i have begotten you, at that time he received the fullness of Holy Spirit and became a born Son of GOD, the same way we do, When we are born of GOD by His spirit, we then contain the seed of our FATHER GOD in us, as it say “His seed abides in you” and again ” Know you not that you are (NOW) the sons of God.” God's Spirit (IN) a person is HIS SEED and HIS NATURE is (IN) His SEED, and (ALL) who Have this SEED have HIS NATURE IN THEM. They are Born from above (NOW) . Blessing on all who understand this. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………….gene

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (Gene @ Nov. 22 2009,08:45)

DB…………Absolutely, Jesus was foreordained (preplanned) before His berth , then at the right time was Born, came into the world by berth , just exactly as we do, and was (Begotten) or Born of GOD at the day He was Baptized in the Jordan By John the Baptist. As the voice of GOD said (this day) i have begotten you, at that time he received the fullness of Holy Spirit and became a born Son of GOD, the same way we do, When we are born of GOD by His spirit, we then contain the seed of our FATHER GOD in us, as it say “His seed abides in you” and again ” Know you not that you are (NOW) the sons of God.”  God's Spirit (IN) a person is HIS SEED and HIS NATURE is (IN) His SEED, and (ALL) who Have this SEED have HIS NATURE IN THEM. They are Born from above (NOW) . Blessing on all who understand this. IMO peace and love to you and yours………………….gene

Sadly, Triny's can't grasp such a simple concept. They are to busy making it a deification process then say it is a mystery for those who have a hard time grasping it.

I prefer scriptures simple teaching over practicing the MYSTERY RELIGION.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Gene @ Nov. 23 2009,03:45)

DB…………Absolutely, Jesus was foreordained (preplanned) before His berth , then at the right time was Born, came into the world by berth , just exactly as we do, and was (Begotten) or Born of GOD at the day He was Baptized in the Jordan By John the Baptist. As the voice of GOD said (this day) i have begotten you, at that time he received the fullness of Holy Spirit and became a born Son of GOD, the same way we do, When we are born of GOD by His spirit, we then contain the seed of our FATHER GOD in us, as it say “His seed abides in you” and again ” Know you not that you are (NOW) the sons of God.”  God's Spirit (IN) a person is HIS SEED and HIS NATURE is (IN) His SEED, and (ALL) who Have this SEED have HIS NATURE IN THEM. They are Born from above (NOW) . Blessing on all who understand this. IMO peace and love to you and yours………………….gene

G,
Those who believe in Jesus, the Son of God, are given the power to BECOME sons of God.[Jn3]

We must walk while the light is with us.

Get geared up, equipped, fed, and start walking under God's guidance.

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick……..I agree with you on that brother, God has equipped us with the living Gospel through the revelation of the truth with understanding.

We must also believe He raised Jesus from the Dead. We are being equipped and separated for the service which we are called to, and must be ready for the Trump to Sound as we wait with great expectation for the revelation of OUR Brother Jesus who is coming with GREAT POWER and Authority, That we all will marvel. Give the glory to GOD the FATHER and Who has put us with Jesus our Brother for ever and ever. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………….gene

[martian]

I am posting this from another thread. It was my response to a trinitarian.

I have posted several scriptures showing that good teaching produces good fruit like the building up of the saints and instruction in righteousness.
Your doctrine does not do either.
Christ talks all through the gospels about judging things and people by their fruits. And yet you dismiss this as not important.

You are right I do think you are narrow minded. You cannot back away from your philosophy enough to see if it actually has any purpose other then a mental philosophy to debate.

Truth is truth is truth is only truth if it is true. We can argue whose truth is true till the rapture (assuming you believe in it) and never come to an answer. Perhaps you are looking for the accolades of the board members as your reward for sticking to your doctrine. A doctrine which a vast number agree with. If so eat it up buddy. I am not interested in such things.
What I am interested in is learning doctrine that will produce good fruit in my life.
Philosophical, scriptural, doctrinal debates on a forum are no more then entertainment UNLESS a person can glean a teaching or truth that actually produces something in them. something that God desires in them. something like the character of God or understanding of christ as our example. Perhaps hope or edification or instructions toward righteousness.
I am stuck for the moment in the house because of injury. I am using the forum as a form of entertainment. When I get on the other side and God asks me what I did in my life to become like him in character. I am surely not going to say I debated on a forum or that I defended a doctrine that could not produce that character change.
I am not going to say that I defended a doctrine that did not edify or teach me the path of righteousness or any other good fruit.
I am not going to tell God that it is not important what fruit my teaching produced. I am not going to demand that God check out my scriptures I use to defend my doctrine. (no matter how much my often deceived intellect tells me I am right)
I am not going to tell God that I defended the traditional doctrines of the church no matter how little fruit they produced.
I am not going to tell God that I planted seeds of doctrine that dried up and died producing no fruit.

I pray I will be able to show that what I taught made Christ a very clear example for me and others on how a human should walk with God That example being made perfectly clear with the understanding that he did it as a human just like me.
I pray that others will see Christ as their brother that understand them perfectly because he has suffered and endured as a man just like us. (not hybrid God/man but just like us)
I pray that others will see how precious they are to God by seeing what stock God put on one just like us that completed his plan even unto death.
I pray others will be able to say from what I teach that they can overcome and have hope because they now know that a man made just like them with no special augmentation/dual-nature has completed the race and overcome.
I pray that others will understand that they can know Christ their brother without having to rely on some mystery and that they can have the same breath of God in them that was in their brother, Christ.
I pray that they will be able to see that they can become one with their heavenly Father even as Christ, their brother, was one with him.
I pray that they will be able to see the relationship between their human brother Christ and YHWH without resorting to some mystical excuse.

[banana]

Quote (martian @ Nov. 23 2009,13:38)

I am posting this from another thread. It was my response to a trinitarian. I have posted several scriptures showing that good teaching produces good fruit like the building up of the saints and instruction in righteousness. Your doctrine does not do either. Christ talks all through the gospels about judging things and people by their fruits. And yet you dismiss this as not important. You are right I do think you are narrow minded. You cannot back away from your philosophy enough to see if it actually has any purpose other then a mental philosophy to debate. Truth is truth is truth is only truth if it is true. We can argue whose truth is true till the rapture (assuming you believe in it) and never come to an answer. Perhaps you are looking for the accolades of the board members as your reward for sticking to your doctrine. A doctrine which a vast number agree with. If so eat it up buddy. I am not interested in such things. What I am interested in is learning doctrine that will produce good fruit in my life. Philosophical, scriptural, doctrinal  debates on a forum are no more then entertainment UNLESS  a person can glean a teaching or truth that actually produces something in them. something that God desires in them. something like the character of God or understanding of christ as our example. Perhaps hope or edification or instructions toward righteousness. I am stuck for the moment in the house because of injury. I am using the forum as a form of entertainment. When I get on the other side and God asks me what I did in my life to become like him in character. I am surely not going to say I debated on a forum or that I defended a doctrine that could not produce that character change. I am not going to say that I defended a doctrine that did not edify or teach me the path of righteousness or any other good fruit. I am not going to tell God that it is not important what fruit my teaching produced. I am not going to demand that God check out my scriptures I use to defend my doctrine. (no matter how much my often deceived intellect tells me I am right) I am not going to tell God that I defended the traditional doctrines of the church no matter how little fruit they produced. I am not going to tell God that I planted seeds of doctrine that dried up and died producing no fruit. I pray I will be able to show that what I taught made Christ a very clear example for me and others on how a human should walk with God  That example being made perfectly clear with the understanding that he did it as a human just like me. I pray that others will see Christ as their brother that understand them perfectly because he has suffered and endured as a man just like us. (not  hybrid God/man but just like us) I pray that others will see how precious they are to God by seeing what stock God put on one just like us that completed his plan even unto death. I pray others will be able to say from what I teach that they can overcome and have hope because they now know that a man made just like them with no special augmentation/dual-nature has completed the race and overcome. I pray that others will understand that they can know Christ their brother without having to rely on some mystery and that they can have the same breath of God in them that was in their brother, Christ. I pray that they will be able to see that they can become one with their heavenly Father even as Christ, their brother, was one with him. I pray that they will be able to see the relationship between their human brother Christ and YHWH without resorting to some mystical excuse.

Martian! So you are stuck at Home and can't go anywhere. Do you think that you are the only disabled person around? Think again. I don't come on here for entertainment. And neither should you. We debate the word of God, for pet sake.
As far as preexisting is concerned, you don't go by Scriptures? Scriptures tell me that Christ was not just in the plan of God. He was the firstborn of all creation brought forth by GOD. Then God gave Him the right to create all.
Col, 1:17
Rev. 3:14
And by Christ's own words He said that He was with God before the world was
John17:5
And that has nothing to do with the trinity doctrine. They believe that Christ always exsisted like the Father.
And then there is what t8 likes to quote. I was “before Abraham I was.”
I pray and pray that all will come to the understanding of God's Word.
In Christians Love and Peace Irene

[martian]

Quote (banana @ Nov. 24 2009,04:37)

Quote (martian @ Nov. 23 2009,13:38) I am posting this from another thread. It was my response to a trinitarian. I have posted several scriptures showing that good teaching produces good fruit like the building up of the saints and instruction in righteousness. Your doctrine does not do either. Christ talks all through the gospels about judging things and people by their fruits. And yet you dismiss this as not important. You are right I do think you are narrow minded. You cannot back away from your philosophy enough to see if it actually has any purpose other then a mental philosophy to debate. Truth is truth is truth is only truth if it is true. We can argue whose truth is true till the rapture (assuming you believe in it) and never come to an answer. Perhaps you are looking for the accolades of the board members as your reward for sticking to your doctrine. A doctrine which a vast number agree with. If so eat it up buddy. I am not interested in such things. What I am interested in is learning doctrine that will produce good fruit in my life. Philosophical, scriptural, doctrinal  debates on a forum are no more then entertainment UNLESS  a person can glean a teaching or truth that actually produces something in them. something that God desires in them. something like the character of God or understanding of christ as our example. Perhaps hope or edification or instructions toward righteousness. I am stuck for the moment in the house because of injury. I am using the forum as a form of entertainment. When I get on the other side and God asks me what I did in my life to become like him in character. I am surely not going to say I debated on a forum or that I defended a doctrine that could not produce that character change. I am not going to say that I defended a doctrine that did not edify or teach me the path of righteousness or any other good fruit. I am not going to tell God that it is not important what fruit my teaching produced. I am not going to demand that God check out my scriptures I use to defend my doctrine. (no matter how much my often deceived intellect tells me I am right) I am not going to tell God that I defended the traditional doctrines of the church no matter how little fruit they produced. I am not going to tell God that I planted seeds of doctrine that dried up and died producing no fruit. I pray I will be able to show that what I taught made Christ a very clear example for me and others on how a human should walk with God  That example being made perfectly clear with the understanding that he did it as a human just like me. I pray that others will see Christ as their brother that understand them perfectly because he has suffered and endured as a man just like us. (not  hybrid God/man but just like us) I pray that others will see how precious they are to God by seeing what stock God put on one just like us that completed his plan even unto death. I pray others will be able to say from what I teach that they can overcome and have hope because they now know that a man made just like them with no special augmentation/dual-nature has completed the race and overcome. I pray that others will understand that they can know Christ their brother without having to rely on some mystery and that they can have the same breath of God in them that was in their brother, Christ. I pray that they will be able to see that they can become one with their heavenly Father even as Christ, their brother, was one with him. I pray that they will be able to see the relationship between their human brother Christ and YHWH without resorting to some mystical excuse. Martian!  So you are stuck at Home and can't go anywhere.  Do you think that you are the only disabled person around?  Think again.  I don't come on here for entertainment.  And neither should you.  We debate the word of God, for pet sake. As far as preexisting is concerned, you  don't go by Scriptures?  Scriptures tell me that Christ was not just in the plan of God.  He was the firstborn of all creation brought forth by GOD.  Then God gave Him the right to create all. Col, 1:17 Rev. 3:14 And by Christ's own words He said that He was with God before the world was John17:5 And that has nothing to do with the trinity doctrine.  They believe that Christ always exsisted like the Father.   And then there is what t8 likes to quote.  I was “before Abraham I was.” I pray and pray that all will come to the understanding of God's Word. In Christians Love and Peace Irene

Yes go ahead and debate to no avail. Until someone comes up with an honest approach to interpretation there will be little change.

the scripture you posted I have dealt with twenty times. You will never agree with what I say. you will claim it is my opinion because you and I have not agreed on an honest approach to interpretation that we will both abide by even if it upsets our doctrine.

I can not even get others to agree on the purpose of teachng/doctrine.
To me teaching should produce fruit that changes lives. I am not talking about a mental philosophy to debate. I am talking about fruit like building hope or making the example of Christ clearer. If a doctrine does not produce fruit it is worthless for anything other mental ascension debate.

[kerwin]

Martian wrote:

Quote

To me teaching should produce fruit that changes lives. I am not talking about a mental philosophy to debate. I am talking about fruit like building hope or making the example of Christ clearer.  If a doctrine does not produce fruit it is worthless for anything other mental ascension debate.

I believe I am changing but the process is extremely long and full of torment.  Still, all things are possible through God.

[martian]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 24 2009,10:55)

Martian wrote: Quote To me teaching should produce fruit that changes lives. I am not talking about a mental philosophy to debate. I am talking about fruit like building hope or making the example of Christ clearer.  If a doctrine does not produce fruit it is worthless for anything other mental ascension debate. I believe I am changing but the process is extremely long and full of torment.  Still, all things are possible through God.

It would please my heart greatly to see you have positive changes in your life. We can all use them.

[Author]

Posts