Jesus did not pre-exist

[Anonymous]

did you read the post above or ignore it?

[martian]

Quote (georg @ Nov. 13 2009,04:46)

Quote (martian @ Nov. 13 2009,02:51) Quote (georg @ Nov. 13 2009,02:17) To ? Unless you read a bible in a foreign languish, I can't see how any one would think, Jesus did not existed before he became one of us, or that he existed in the Fathers head as a thought, or even that he always existed. I think the bible is quite clear on the subject; The Son (Jesus) is the first born of all creation. God is one God, he has no equal, not three in one. Only if you don't want to believe the truth, will you come up with all this nonsense. And of course there are those that figured out there is money to be made by preaching and writing books about lies because, it is evident that people believe lies more than they believe truth. Georg Do you read the bible in a foriegn language or do you read it in the original Hebrew and Greek and that would include understanding the cultures into which it was written. Far too many people read their English bibles and trust the translations completely without studying the languages for themselves. secondly few use any sort of proper interpretation rules. They take a word like Logos and give it a completely different meaning then anywhere else in the bible just to satisfy their doctrine. The funny thing is that when you call them on t they ignor it and change the subject. Martian Understanding of the bible does not come by the ability of knowing Hebrew or Greek, understanding comes from God only. Pro 2:6   For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.   Georg

then why do you attempt to use the Bible if all of your knowledge comes from some spiritual insight.
If you are going to use the bible then you must be sure you are using the real bible and not some interpreters take on it.
I realize that it is not possible for everyone to study Greek and Hebrew. It is necessary to rely on other's take to some degree, but to blindly accept the interpretations of those that were obviously influenced by doctrinal bents is foolish. It is not difficult to read a greek interlinear or to understand a few of the Hebrew cultural ideas to see that our English bibles are not accurate.

It is certainly better then going by hairs on the back of the neck or some intuition.
“We have a more sure word of prophecy? (The Bible in it's original language and within the culture it was written in)

[martian]

Quote (katjo @ Nov. 13 2009,05:39)

did you read the post above or ignore it?

I read it. Enough to see that your use of proper principles for interpretations is invisible.
Answer: In addition to Jesus’ specific claims about Himself, His disciples also acknowledged the deity of Christ. They claimed that Jesus had the right to forgive sins—something only God can do—

WRONG —
John 20
22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
23″If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

Ms the disciples can forgive sins.

as it is God who is offended by sin (Acts 5:31; Colossians 3:13; Psalm 130:4; Jeremiah 31:34). In close connection with this last claim, Jesus is also said to be the one who will “judge the living and the dead” (2 Timothy 4:1).
WRONG —
Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Thomas cried out to Jesus, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28).

Wrong —-
Already covered

Paul calls Jesus “great God and Savior” (Titus 2:13)

Wrong —
The original Greek says “awaiting the happy hope and manifestation of the glory of the great God and of savior of us of Christ Jesus….”
The word “and” here means “in addition to”
The name of Jesus appears with God's in Jesus' commanded to baptize “in the name [singular] of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19)

WRONG —
Matthew was originally written in Hebrew. The Hebrew translation would be –
Go out to all the people and immerse them in the character of the one who gives strength to the family, his son who is like him and the breath which is the source of life.
The term name means character.

This is enough to show that your scholarship in scripture is in need of updating.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (martian @ Nov. 13 2009,05:54)

Quote (katjo @ Nov. 13 2009,05:39) did you read the post above or ignore it? I read it. Enough to see that your use of proper principles for interpretations is invisible. Answer: In addition to Jesus’ specific claims about Himself, His disciples also acknowledged the deity of Christ. They claimed that Jesus had the right to forgive sins—something only God can do— WRONG — John 20 22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23″If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.” Ms the disciples can forgive sins. as it is God who is offended by sin (Acts 5:31; Colossians 3:13; Psalm 130:4; Jeremiah 31:34). In close connection with this last claim, Jesus is also said to be the one who will “judge the living and the dead” (2 Timothy 4:1). WRONG — Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Thomas cried out to Jesus, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28). Wrong —- Already covered Paul calls Jesus “great God and Savior” (Titus 2:13) Wrong — The original Greek says “awaiting the happy hope and manifestation of the glory of the great God and of savior of us of Christ Jesus….” The word “and” here means “in addition to” The name of Jesus appears with God's in Jesus' commanded to baptize “in the name [singular] of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19) WRONG — Matthew was originally written in Hebrew. The Hebrew translation would be – Go out to all the people and immerse them in the character of the one who gives strength to the family, his son who is like him and the breath which is the source of life. The term name means character. This is enough to show that your scholarship in scripture is in need of updating.

Excellent post!

[Anonymous]

So you are litteraly saying scripture is a lie, Jesus is going to be the one who judges us for our sin!! Thats a fact!Read Rev. And the diciples ,that followed Jesus, are they here now? Jesus is the only one who can forgive our sins and the one who will judge us at his appearing! try 4;8 Hencefourth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord the righteous judge, shall give me at that day. and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing!

[NickHassan]

Hi Kat,
Did Jesus give his disciples the authority and power to forgive sin too?[Jn20.23]
You should be reborn into him that you too can be a priest and ruler.[Rev20]

[martian]

I have no illusions about changing many minds on this board. I fear that most on here are like the man convinced against his own will. He will remain of the same opinion still.
I would however conclude that most on here do want to walk with God and become like Jesus in every way possible. That being the case, a question might be raised as to what everyone’s particular doctrine does to help them become like Christ.
For example, If I were to believe that Jesus was any sort of God while on this Earth, how does that make him a perfect example that I can really follow. When I say any sort of God I am including “God/man, 100% god 100% man, Totally God in an earthly flesh body ect. Any one of these places Jesus in a category unlike me or the rest of humanity. How can he then be anything but a very small partial example for me? These concepts draw everything that Christ did into question. It forces speculation on what kind of advantage Christ had over us and what things he did can we actually follow him in. These concepts muddy the waters of a functional gospel in which God gives us a clear and definite example to follow.
We can debate the theories and philosophies of interpretation all day long but if we do not consider the actual purpose of doctrine (the furtherance of the plan of God) then it is intellectual gobbledeegoop.
God’s plan is to raise sons and daughters with his character. For that purpose he gave us the perfect example of what it means to have the fullness of the character of God (tested even unto death) in a human being. God would not sanctify any doctrine that would deter, make unclear, or sidetrack from that simple plan.

I know there are those that could care less if there doctrine fits in the plan of God because they only seek the prideful thrill of proving (through any means possible) that they are right. I do hope there are a few that really care about fulfilling the plan of God for their own lives and will seriously consider if their present doctrines help or hinder that goal.

[NickHassan]

Hi M,
Now where did I hear that before.
Of course imitation is impossible without the Spirit within.
Then it is no longer the striving works of men that lead to the result but that of the Spirit within.

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 13 2009,06:49)

Hi M, Now where did I hear that before. Of course imitation is impossible without the Spirit within. Then it is no longer the striving works of men that lead to the result but that of the Spirit within.

And you will hear it again because it is the foundation of the doctrinal argument or at least should be.
Doctrine/teaching is for the purpose of furthering the plan of God for man. If a doctrine does not do that then what is the point other then simple mental philosophy. All it becomes is a past time for us to jump through some intellectual hoops. It does nothing to help us become like christ. I think there is a vast difference between some who honestly want to become like Christ and believe it really possible and those that only give that possibility lip service. There are those that will be in the Bride and those that will not. They will be too busy trying to prove themselves right to care if their path leads them to the Bride.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (katjo @ Nov. 13 2009,06:35)

So you are litteraly saying scripture is a lie, Jesus is going to be the one who judges us for our sin!! Thats a fact!Read Rev. And the diciples ,that followed Jesus, are they here now? Jesus is the only one who can forgive our sins and the one who will judge us at his appearing! try 4;8 Hencefourth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord the righteous judge, shall give me at that day. and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing!

Then Why does Jesus say “I Judge no man”

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 13 2009,06:49)

Hi M, Now where did I hear that before. Of course imitation is impossible without the Spirit within. Then it is no longer the striving works of men that lead to the result but that of the Spirit within.

Perhaps it is the nature of the beast (forums) that cause me to think that there is little point other then entertainment to be found on here. I have been on and off this board for almost three years and I have seen very very little change in any of the primary players in so far as doctrine goes. those that had disfunctional doctrines still hold to them. They seem to fall into the category I described. More interested in proving to others that they have the truth then in really examining their teaching to see if it furthers the plan of God.

[martian]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 13 2009,07:07)

Quote (katjo @ Nov. 13 2009,06:35) So you are litteraly saying scripture is a lie, Jesus is going to be the one who judges us for our sin!! Thats a fact!Read Rev. And the diciples ,that followed Jesus, are they here now? Jesus is the only one who can forgive our sins and the one who will judge us at his appearing! try 4;8 Hencefourth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord the righteous judge, shall give me at that day. and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing! Then Why does Jesus say “I Judge no man”

Jesus said His judgments are correct because they are not his but come from His father. YHWH judges through Christ. YHWH judges on the basis of the Human possibility of following in the complete footsteps of their brother (and fellow human) Christ.

[NickHassan]

Hi M,
Funniliy enough you still say exactly the same things too.
Perhaps it is you who needs to change?

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 13 2009,07:14)

Hi M, Funniliy enough you still say exactly the same things too. Perhaps it is you who needs to change?

I am more then willing to change if someone shows me a functional way in which their doctrines help me to become like Christ. so far I have seen none.

[NickHassan]

Hi M,
We are not spiritual engineers.
God changes His chidren who are blessed in His gift of the Spirit.
That is if they feed on scripture and allow the Spirit of God to teach and transform them by a renewal of their minds.

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick………What makes you so sure you are the one that doesn't need changing, What martain post makes perfect sense for any who have the Spirit in them. Maybe God has already changed martain, with his Gift of the spirit and you are the one lacking, Have you ever considered that possibility?

gene

[martian]

I am not interested in scriptural proofs since no one has agreed to a set of rules by which we can all interpret them. Without those rules of interpretation it becomes my word/opinion against theirs.
I will begin with a few assumptions —
I. Jesus is Gods only begotten son.
II. Jesus had a two fold ministry
A. To be the blood sacrifice. The spotless lamb.
B. To be our example as how to walk with God. To follow in his steps.
1. To grow into the Bride of Christ.
2. To develop the character of God as Christ did.
3. To learn to overcome as Christ did.
4. To be worthy of resurrection as Christ was.

For purposes of this thread I would like those that believe in a preexistent Christ to answer a few very basic questions.
Did Christ exist in a conscious/sentient state in his preexistent life?
If so, what happened to the memories of his experiences from that life?
Did he carry those memories into his Earthly life?
Did Christ have any advantage over the rest of humanity in overcoming sin because of his preexistence?
Did Christ have any advantage in his resurrection because of his preexistence?

These following two or the most important questions.

How does the doctrine of the preexistence help me become more like Christ?
How does the doctrine of the Preexistence build hope in my heart?

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 13 2009,07:42)

Hi M, We are not spiritual engineers. God changes His chidren who are blessed in His gift of the Spirit. That is if they feed on scripture and allow the Spirit of God to teach and transform them by a renewal of their minds.

On the contrary, we are to work with God to do His good will in us. We are partners with God in our own development. This is essentially the definition of “faith” as found in the OT. Once we have allowed the blood of the lamb to cleanse us we can come boldly before the thrown of Grace. We can again have fellowship with our creator and learn his wisdom which develops His character in us. This is the process of becoming the bride of Christ. A mature bride without spot or wrinkle.

I agree with you on many things, but you seem content to engage in endless philosophical debate on scriptural topics without asking the really important questions. Question like how do the conclusions that are reached help us to become like Christ or to develop the character of God in us. Without the answers to those question we do not know if the doctrines have any real purpose in our lives other then simple intellectualized philosophy.
Your actions on this board seem to indicate more of an interest in the philosophy of Christianity rather then the real nuts and bolts of becoming like Christ. Wisdom is not the same as intellectual data and character is not learned from mental philosophy. Debate tactics will not win a place in the bride.
I could care less what some think they can prove from scripture but, show me a teaching that helps me to be like Christ or develop God's character in me and I am enraptured.

[NickHassan]

Hi M,
It is only rebirth of the Spirit that allows us to be transformed into the likeness of Jesus by the fruit and gifts of that Spirit.[Gal5]
The Spirit worked through him and will do the same for us if we let the Spirit control our lives.[Gal5]

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 14 2009,04:56)

Hi M, It is only rebirth of the Spirit that allows us to be transformed into the likeness of Jesus by the fruit and gifts of that Spirit.[Gal5] The Spirit worked through him and will do the same for us if we let the Spirit control our lives.[Gal5]

Are the monitors of this forum Trinitarian? It seems when an anti trinitarian starts to make good points they move the thread and effectively kill the thread.

[Author]

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