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Jesus did pre-exist! He is the creator. The bible tells us so.(Col 1) ALL THINGS WERE CREATED BY HIM AND FOR HIM.(all, he could not of created him self) If you study the Old Testament, you will see who He truly is. He is our Lord God. Who left that position in heaven to come to earth to take on the sins of the world, and returned back to the glory he had before the world was! IN scripture He is called our Lord God. There is even scripture in the Old Testament of God saying he will come to earth. There is scripture that even says; He has eyes and a mouth. Also scripture saying with our eyes shall we see God. And everything the Old Testament tells you God is-repeats the same thing of Jesus in the New Testament. We are a spirit that lives in a body, but that does not make us different. God is spirit that became flesh in a body too! They are one.
Katjo
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Nick Hassan
Group: Regular Members
Posts: 40804
Joined: June 2004 Posted: Nov. 18 2009,13:15——————————————————————————–
Hi KAT,
Who is his God, the One he said was greater?
Do you know Him?————–
Test all things. Hold fast to what is good
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katjo
Group: Members
Posts: 442
Joined: Aug. 2009 Posted: Nov. 18 2009,13:26——————————————————————————–
Who is our salvation threw? JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD! Who are we waiting for to return? JESUS! Isiah 25;9 And it shall be said in that day, lo, this is our God; we have waited for him and He will save us; this is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.(old Testament) (New Testament- JESUS IS LORD! kING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS! There is only one LORD GODQuote (katjo @ Nov. 18 2009,12:54) Jesus, is our lORD GOD! katjo
Hi Kato,The Godhead is not difficult to understand.
Fev.4:8: And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him ; and they were full of eyes within:
and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.Holy κύριος Kuriŏs, which is “Jesus” “which was”
Holy θεός Thěŏs, which is “Holy Spirit” “which is”
Holy παντοκράτωρ Pantŏkratōr, which is “GOD The Father” “which is to come”The promises God made to Abraham, HE said his seed would be as plentiful as the…
1) “Dust of the Earth”=170 (Gen. 3:16)
2) “Stars of Heaven”=153 (Gen. 26:4)
3) “Sand of the Sea”=117 (Gen. 32:12)Gen.2:7 And the LORD(GOD The Father) God(Jesus) formed man of the dust of the (earth) ground,
and breathed (life) into his nostrils the breath of life(Holy Spirit); and man became a living soul.“Lord God Almighty”=170 formed man (all of us) of the “dust of the earth”=170.
We are all created in God’s image; not just merely Jesus.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi ED,
There is no trinity-that is why it is hard to understand.
It is very hard to understand why catholic men would try to design their own God.
The daughters of the false church, while leaving for lesser reasons, faithfully transplant such folly into their own denominations
Also hard to understand why they would hijack a KJV word of three greek origins meaning the nature of the father of Jesus and apply it to mean a trinity??Can you explain these babylonian mysteries?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 18 2009,14:18) Hi ED,
There is no trinity-that is why it is hard to understand.
It is very hard to understand why catholic men would try to design their own God.
The daughters of the false church, while leaving for lesser reasons, faithfully transplant such folly into their own denominations
Also hard to understand why they would hijack a KJV word of three greek origins meaning the nature of the father of Jesus and apply it to mean a trinity??Can you explain these babylonian mysteries?
Hi Nick, also thanksWe all know that 1John 5:7 was added to the bible; there are a couple of reasons why we can be certain 1 John 5:7 was added.
First: God's word is already established in Heaven, needing no further witness.
“For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.” (Psalm119:89)Second: They don't even present “The Truth” correctly; they should have put it in this way…
“The Father, The Word(Holy Spirit), and Jesus Christ”.God bless
Ed JHi ED,
Is Jesus the Son of God or God Himself?
Was God in his Christ or was Christ God Himself?
Is the Spirit of God as the finger of God or another person?Can you expound Acts 10.38?
I thought you already knew all the answers Nick?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 18 2009,14:40) Hi ED,
Is Jesus the Son of God or God Himself?
Was God in his Christ or was Christ God Himself?
Is the Spirit of God as the finger of God or another person?Can you expound Acts 10.38?
Hi Nick,Good questions.
The Holy Spirit is “God Himself”, He(Holy Spirit) was in Jesus(God's Son);
He(Holt Spirit) is also in us, God's Children.“GOD The Father” is the “Holy Spirit” without the Satan part.
Jesus came down out of heaven to 'purge out' the Satan part.Col.2:9 For in him(Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (John 6:15)
It doesn't matter which part of God we worship as long as it isn't the Satan part.This (next) verse says that we were “all” with him(Jesus Christ) in the beginning.
John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.If this verse “only” apples to the Apostles, then this (next) verse “only” applyes to the Apostles as well…
Luke 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
But John 15:27 and Luke 14:27 apply to “All” of Jesus' followers: all “Christians”=101 put “God's will”=101 above their own.Deut. 6:4: “Hear, O Israel: The LORD (YHVH) our God is one LORD:”
YHVH is GOD=117!
Everybody that believes in Jesus, makes YHVH their GOD!
This is what everybody here keeps telling BD to do.Satan is called the 'god' of this world.
“And GOD Himself”=117 is NOW purged of the Satan part! (Rev.10:7)God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 18 2009,16:10) psst ED,
Satan is not a part of God.
Hi Nick,Everything that GOD created was part of God. (Ezek. 28:14-19 / Isaiah 14:12-27)
God bless
Ed JThis is long, But you should read it! The doctrine of the Trinity was not clearly formulated until after the New Testament was written. However there are anticipations of the doctrine in the Old Testament.
The Doctrine Is Not Plainly Revealed
The doctrine of the Trinity is not plainly revealed in the Old Testament. Without the teaching of the New Testament we would not be aware of this truth. Although not explicitly mentioned, the basis of the doctrine can be detected when exploring the Old Testament.
There Is A Plural Noun Used With A Singular Verb
A hint of the doctrine of the Trinity can be found in the first verse of the Bible.
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1).
The Hebrew word for God is Elohim. Elohim is a plural noun but it is used here with a singular verb bara. In the remainder of the Old Testament, when Elohim speaks of the true God, it is always used with a singular verb. The conclusion to be drawn is that in some sense God is both singular and plural. The doctrine of the Trinity states this – within the nature of the one God there are three eternal persons.
God Says “Let Us”
We find a further hint of the Trinity in Genesis 1.
Then God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth” (Genesis 1:26).
The phrase “let us” again gives the idea of plurality. The word “us” cannot refer to angels because angels do not create.
Therefore, in the first chapter of the Bible we have a hint of the Trinity with the plural title Elohim used with a singular verb and God speaking and saying, “Let us.”
More References To God Being Referred To As “Us”
The words “let us” is used elsewhere of God speaking in Genesis. After Adam and Eve sinned the Bible records.
Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever (Genesis 3:22).
At the incident at the Tower of Babel we read God saying.
Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another's speech (Genesis 11:7).
Isaiah the prophet recorded God saying.
Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Then I said, “Here am I. Send me” (Isaiah 6:8).
Another Plural Name For God – Maker
There is another instance in the Isaiah where there is a second plural name for God.
For your Maker is your husband, the LORD of hosts is his name; the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer, the God of the whole earth he is called (Isaiah 54:5).
The word translated, “Maker” is plural in Hebrew. Therefore we have a second Hebrew word that is plural that is used of God.
The Clearest Old Testament Statement
There is one statement in the Old Testament that gives a fairly clear indication of the Trinity.
Come near me and listen to this: “From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret; at the time it happens, I am there. “And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, with his Spirit. This is what the LORD says – your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: “I am the LORD your God, who teaches you what is best for you, who directs you in the way you should go (Isaiah 48:16,17).
In verse sixteen, God the Son is speaking. He identifies the Father [the Sovereign Lord] and His Spirit as having sent Him. In the next verse, the Son is clearly spoken of as the Lord. Consequently these verses identify three distinct Persons who are God without denying the fact there is only one God.
There Is A Distinction Between The Lord In Heaven And The One On Earth
The Old Testament also makes a distinction between the Lord who is in heaven and the one on earth.
Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah – from the LORD out of the heavens. Thus He overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities – and also the vegetation in the land (Genesis 19:24).
Each Member Is Specifically Mentioned In The Old Testament
In addition, each member of the Trinity is mentioned in the Old Testament.
God The Father
There are Old Testament passages that refer to God the Father.
For you are our father, though Abraham does not know us and Israel does not acknowledge us; you, O LORD, are our father; our Redeemer from of old is your name (Isaiah 63:16).
Malachi wrote.
Have we not all one father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our ancestors? (Malachi 2:10).
The Son Is Found In The Old Testament
The Son finds mention in the Old Testament. The Psalmist wrote.
Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. Your royal scepter is a scepter of equity; you love righteousness and hate wickedness. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions (Psalm 45:6,7).
In the Second Psalm we read.
I have set my king on Zion, my holy hill. I will tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to me, “You are my Son; today I have begotten you (Psalm 2:6,7)
Later, in that same Psalm, it says.
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their trust in him (Psalm 2:12)
In the Book of Proverbs it says.
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know! (Proverbs 30:4).
The Messiah Has Divine Titles
God's Son, the Messiah is described with divine titles.
“The days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will raise up to David Or up from David's line} a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land” (Jeremiah 23:5,6).
Isaiah wrote.
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6).
The Angel Of The Lord
The Angel of the Lord has the power to forgive sins
“See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him (Exodus 23:20,21).
The Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit, or the “Spirit of the Lord,” is also mentioned in the Old Testament. In the Book of Genesis we read.
Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters (Genesis 1:2).
Isaiah recorded the following.
The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him – the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD – and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears (Isaiah 11:2,3).
Isaiah also wrote.
The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners (Isaiah 61:1).
Later Isaiah wrote.
Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. So he turned and became their enemy and he himself fought against them (Isaiah 63:10).
The Spirit of God is distinguished from the Lord in the account leading up to the Flood.
Then the LORD said, “My spirit shall not abide in mortals forever, for they are flesh; their days shall be one hundred twenty years” (Genesis 6:3)
The Trinity Is Foreshadowed In Benediction
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The Trinity is also foreshadowed in the triple benediction of Numbers 6:24-27.
The LORD bless you and keep you; the LORD make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you; the LORD turn his face toward you and give you peace. So they will put my name on the Israelites, and I will bless them.
The doxology of Isaiah 6:3 also gives hint of the Trinity.
And they were calling to one another: Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty; the whole earth is full of his glory (Isaiah 6:3).
Jacob Blessed Joseph Three Times
When Jacob blessed his son Joseph, he used the name of God three times. Each time God's name was identified differently.
Then he blessed Joseph and said, “May the God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, the God who has been my shepherd all my life to this day, the Angel who has delivered me from all harm may he bless these boys. May they be called by my name and the names of my fathers Abraham and Isaac, and may they increase greatly upon the earth (Genesis 48:15,16).
While this is not conclusive, the triple benedictions are consistent with the doctrine of the Trinity.
Why Is There Not More Said?
If the doctrine of the Trinity is true, then why don't we find more explicit references in the Old Testament? Part of the answer may lie in the culture in which the Old Testament was written. Israel was surrounded by nations who were all polytheistic – they believed in many gods. It was important for Israel to realize that the God of the Bible is the only God who existed. Consequently the oneness of God was stressed. After this truth was firmly understood by Israel then the Lord revealed further truth about His basic nature – that He is a Trinity.
Summary
Although the Trinity is not explicitly taught in the Old Testament, the basis of this doctrine is certainly found there. First there is the use of the plural noun for God Elohim that is used with a singular verb. This gives a hint of the Trinity. The Hebrew word for Maker, which describes God, is also in the plural.
There are also passages where God speaks of himself with the words, “Let us.” This is another possible reference to the Trinity.
There are also specific passages where the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are mentioned. Add to this passages that foreshadow the Trinity with the triple benediction. These passages, however, do not reveal the doctrine of the Trinity. This was left for the New Testament to accomplish. The Old Testament does not have a developed doctrine of the Trinity. However truths about the Trinity are foreshadowed in the Old Testament.Hi KAT,
So as you say the doctrine is neither found in the OT nor the NT.
Some think they can see some implications that one exists.
Is that good enough for you to go and follow them?
We know that Jesus is not his own father.
Do you know the God of Jesus yet?
Why do you ignore Him?you must really be a speed reader Nick! Thats not what it says; READ IT!
Your the one ignoring alot!
Quote (katjo @ Nov. 19 2009,12:06) you must really be a speed reader Nick! Thats not what it says; READ IT!
Hi Katjo,There is neither three “Gods” nor two; there is only one GOD.
And He is in you, Nick and me.The bible clearly says that the heaven of heavens cannot contain Him.
So to try and isolate Him to either Jesus only or even “a trinity”;
does not serve the enormity of our GOD (YHVH).He clearly wants to exist in his people; shall we now say that you have a different God than Nick?
Of coarse NOT. If anything, there is lacking only in our understanding of Him. So in an open discussion differing views of God help us to see “GOD” in parallax.Parallax is why we see depth, because we have two eyes; Yet we only have one body.
Through the Father Son relationship we see with the help of his(Holy Spirit) indwelling Spirit; yet we are all one!Our Goal is the same as GOD The Father's, to purge Satan from us; making him(Satan) of none effect.
Psalm 33:10-12 The LORD bringeth the counsel of the heathen to nought: he maketh the devices of the people of none effect.
The counsel (The Bible) of the LORD (YHVH) standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.
Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people (all of us) whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi ED,
Of course natural men have no relationship with our God and He does not live in them though man was designed as a temple for Him. You must be born again.
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